Crusader of the living flame subclass homebrew

[Spacehamster]

Hey playground!

Wanting to make a fighter subclass 33% caster like eldritch knight but with cleric spell list and cleric type casting. Wisdom based casting and a focus on purification by fire and mounted holy war. Basically a harsh zealous bastard with a leaning to lawful but otherwise any alignment depending on diety. :)

Thought I would ask for suggestions on fitting subclass perks. Were thinking when you pick it up at 3rd level you gain handle animal skill with expertise and your mount gains a hp bonus of 5+ fighter level. 2nd subclass perk were thinking +1d6 Fire damage on all attacks. 3rd subclass perk maybe fireball once per short rest at minimum level. And capstone "avatar of flame" once per short rest you (and your mount if mounted) look as if you are covered in white hot flames for 1 minute, when you attack you deal an additional 1d8 fire damage and attacks made against you has disadvantage unless attacker is resistant to or immune to fire.

This is all thrown out there quickly and not that much thought through but any opinion on the subclass idea and functionality is welcome. :) and any replacement perks considered.

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[SharkForce]

why not paladin?

[Spacehamster]

why not paladin?

Cause he is a fighter not a paladin. :)

But more seriously the idea I got is a fanatical warrior of faith that is not knowledgeable enough of the religion to be a cleric of said faith, nor noble enough to be a paladin, thus fighter it is. :)

[SharkForce]

Cause he is a fighter not a paladin. :)

But more seriously the idea I got is a fanatical warrior of faith that is not knowledgeable enough of the religion to be a cleric of said faith, nor noble enough to be a paladin, thus fighter it is. :)

i would not describe vengeance paladins as being particularly noble... you could probably tweak it fairly easily to fit your needs.

[Spacehamster]

i would not describe vengeance paladins as being particularly noble... you could probably tweak it fairly easily to fit your needs.

Don't want to make a paladin subclass tho want to make a 1/3 fighter caster with divine spells. :)

[SharkForce]

what is it about the fighter that you are looking for specifically?

[Talyn]

I know you keep saying that you want it to be Fighter, but I think you'd get a better fit with a homebrew Paladin Oath. Oath of the Flame-Keeper, perhaps?

Oath spells could be Blazing Smite, Endure Elements, and other fire-themed cleric spells. If you really feel like you need Fighter because you want Action Surge, you could create a custom Channel Divinity that gives an extra standard action or something.

[Spacehamster]

I want the martial part to be the main focus that's why paladin or cleric does not fit the bill. I look at him as the cleric acolyte that failed in his studies in the temple that were kept around anyways as a enforcer of the faith cause of his fanatical belief and dedication.

Basically you could call him the cleric that is good to have around in battle but you would never bring him to negotiations between two different faiths for example.

Also there is no 33% divine caster so wanted to make one. Only interested in thoughts of the perks and if they are decently balanced, suggestions on replacement perks. But not interested in switching it over to a different chassi. :)

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Okay, so using Eldritch Knight as the basic chassis, except uses cleric/paladin spells and WIS for a casting stat. Minor note: This is somewhat advantageous as having high WIS is generally better than high INT.
Questions: -Do you get cantrips?
-In what way will the spell list be limited? By School, like EK? Or a custom list?
-Prepared or Spontaneous spell-casting?
-Ritual Casting?

Also we need a minor lvl 3 feature, and features for levels 7, 10, 15 and 18.

Some Ideas:

Lvl 3: As a bonus action, you may spent a 1st level spell slot to wreath your weapon in flame. Add an additional 1d4 fire damage to all melee attacks made with the weapon. The flaming weapon sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. Counts as a concentration spell with a duration of 1 hour. The duration is increased to 8 hours if a 3rd or higher spell slot is used.
(1d4 instead of 1d6 as with Hex/Hunter's mark as it's all targets, not just the single cursed target).

Lvl 7: Learn 'Find Steed' in addition to any other spells you receive this level. You may cast this spell as if it had the Ritual tag.

Edit: Not really sure what to put for higher level abilities. You could get a version of War Caster. Or maybe a healing ability or a channel divinity option?

[MadBear]

2nd subclass perk were thinking +1d6 Fire damage on all attacks.

I'd be careful with this one. The lvl 11 paladin adds d8 to all attacks, but they only ever make 2, and this helps make up for not getting a 3rd or 4th attack. Adding d6 damage to all attacks, makes you effectively better at lvl 12 when you get your 3rd attack, and even better at 20.

Now maybe allowing an extra 1d8 a number of times per short rest = to wisdom would work. You could then scale it like adding 2d8 at lvl 12, 3d8 at 16, and 4d8 at 20.

Of course tweek this to match appropriate damage, but I wouldn't grand a flat damage bonus like that.

[Submortimer]

Suggestions:
- Call this subclass Templar. I think it'll fit the bill, name wise, and it works thematically: Fighters that protect the temple, and are zealously devoted, but are not as spiritually connected as paladins
- Put in an option based on the Cleric's Domains. If these guys are failed clerics/guardians of a temple, they should have abilities that relate to the temple they protect.

[Spacehamster]

I'd be careful with this one. The lvl 11 paladin adds d8 to all attacks, but they only ever make 2, and this helps make up for not getting a 3rd or 4th attack. Adding d6 damage to all attacks, makes you effectively better at lvl 12 when you get your 3rd attack, and even better at 20.

Now maybe allowing an extra 1d8 a number of times per short rest = to wisdom would work. You could then scale it like adding 2d8 at lvl 12, 3d8 at 16, and 4d8 at 20.

Of course tweek this to match appropriate damage, but I wouldn't grand a flat damage bonus like that.

Paladins also has the ability to burn spell slots to add even more d8 which this subclass lacks but could make it a d4 fire damage instead then it adds up to maximum same damage as a Paladins 1d8 even at 4 attacks. And bit more once per short rest if you use action surge which would be like the paladin burning a spell slot just not doable as often as the paladin can. Seems balanced enough?

[MrStabby]

Okay, so using Eldritch Knight as the basic chassis, except uses cleric/paladin spells and WIS for a casting stat. Minor note: This is somewhat advantageous as having high WIS is generally better than high INT.
Questions: -Do you get cantrips?
-In what way will the spell list be limited? By School, like EK? Or a custom list?
-Prepared or Spontaneous spell-casting?
-Ritual Casting?

Also we need a minor lvl 3 feature, and features for levels 7, 10, 15 and 18.

Some Ideas:

Lvl 3: As a bonus action, you may spent a 1st level spell slot to wreath your weapon in flame. Add an additional 1d4 fire damage to all melee attacks made with the weapon. The flaming weapon sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. Counts as a concentration spell with a duration of 1 hour. The duration is increased to 8 hours if a 3rd or higher spell slot is used.
(1d4 instead of 1d6 as with Hex/Hunter's mark as it's all targets, not just the single cursed target).

Lvl 7: Learn 'Find Steed' in addition to any other spells you receive this level. You may cast this spell as if it had the Ritual tag.

Edit: Not really sure what to put for higher level abilities. You could get a version of War Caster. Or maybe a healing ability or a channel divinity option?

I worry a little about a couple of things:
1) Extra damage per attack is not like giving it to clerics; fighters can get a lot of attacks. Paladins get +1 to hit alongside this bonus as a 3rd level spell at level 9. I am also nervous as if you cast from wisdom you also share a major attribute with Monks who can get a lot of attacks very early on.

2) Find steed - really should probably change this. First ability mimicking a paladin spell then second ability mimicking a paladin spell makes it seem like the class should be a paladin subclass.


I think bonus damage is good but I would be tempted to do it through things like Hellish Rebuke rather than something that scales with number of attacks - much safer I think.

I also think that you could have a lot of fun with low level spells that scale well and some recovery options. Maybe the lvl7 ability can be that you get a lvl 1 spell back every time you kill a creature in close combat and the level 10 ability be to take a lvl 2 spell slot back. I would say something earlier but it would be too open to abuse with the Paladin subclass. With spells like searing smite it would encourage you to burn through them (no pun intended) more quickly.

Perhaps the lv 3 ability could be something like "whenever you roll a die to determine fire damage you may add one point of radiant damage to the result". A small but significant damage boost to your spells and makes you pretty good at killing Zombies.

For spells - I would give a load of options. Maybe not cantrips but any spell that deals fire damage. It shouldn't be too broken as at a 3rd tier caster any other class will be able to have more spells and get them at lower levels (maybe not more if you add a recovery mechanic). So this gives you things like hellish rebuke and searing smite but also late game it gives you fireball (possibly with 8d6+8 radiant damage). Giving a wider selection allows for thematic Heat Metal or Scorching ray that might be passed over.

I wouldn't worry if the end result ends up being a bit more powerful than the EK, I think a lot of people are not keen on that class.

[Person_Man]

I agree with the criticisms/problem already mentioned. Wis is superior to Int (or Cha). Having Find Steed clearly steps on the Paladin's niche. 1d6 per attack damage bonus is not appropriate for a Fighter the Fighter gets Action Surge + 3 attacks.

Big picture, if you're going to do homebrew, it should actually contain something new and different, and not just a slightly more powerful re-mix of abilities that you can already get from other classes.

Have you considered a multi-class Fighter or Ranger/Cleric or Paladin? That would also be "mostly martial" but with some spells and divine abilities.

[Spacehamster]

I agree with the criticisms/problem already mentioned. Wis is superior to Int (or Cha). Having Find Steed clearly steps on the Paladin's niche. 1d6 per attack damage bonus is not appropriate for a Fighter the Fighter gets Action Surge + 3 attacks.

Big picture, if you're going to do homebrew, it should actually contain something new and different, and not just a slightly more powerful re-mix of abilities that you can already get from other classes.

Have you considered a multi-class Fighter or Ranger/Cleric or Paladin? That would also be "mostly martial" but with some spells and divine abilities.

Never said anything about find steed, and changed the d6 to a d4 which makes it equal to the Paladins d8. And sure wis is a better saving throw compared to cha or int but the paladin for example would still get a better wis save due to both beeing proficient in that save and having the aura.
Same with clerics proficient + wanting to max that stat which a 33% caster would not do. So at least I don't see the big harm in probably at most +1 or +2 more in a non-proficient save would do?

But as I said in my first post this is just thrown out there quickly without much thought while at lunch at work. Will think more on what to give the subclass when I get home. :)

[MadBear]

Paladins also has the ability to burn spell slots to add even more d8 which this subclass lacks but could make it a d4 fire damage instead then it adds up to maximum same damage as a Paladins 1d8 even at 4 attacks. And bit more once per short rest if you use action surge which would be like the paladin burning a spell slot just not doable as often as the paladin can. Seems balanced enough?

I still think it err's on the too powerful side myself. (better mind you, but still too powerful)

The whole point of giving the paladin a d8 damage, was to give them a way to match the fighters 3rd attack. You're kinda having your cake and eating it too by giving the fighter auto-fire damage every attack.

As too the point of a paladin and adding damage through his spell slots, he's using a limited resource. You're fighter still gets to use his cantrips and spells without any impact.

From a balance perspective, look at what the EK is doing at that same level. He doesn't get any auto damage added to his attacks. Is you're spell list going to be so much worse then the EK that you need extra damage to balance it all out? My guess would be no.

[Spacehamster]

I still think it err's on the too powerful side myself. (better mind you, but still too powerful)

The whole point of giving the paladin a d8 damage, was to give them a way to match the fighters 3rd attack. You're kinda having your cake and eating it too by giving the fighter auto-fire damage every attack.

As too the point of a paladin and adding damage through his spell slots, he's using a limited resource. You're fighter still gets to use his cantrips and spells without any impact.

From a balance perspective, look at what the EK is doing at that same level. He doesn't get any auto damage added to his attacks. Is you're spell list going to be so much worse then the EK that you need extra damage to balance it all out? My guess would be no.

Ek is a joke tho so why make a class that's sub optimal? :) but on serious note I will prob make the rest of the perks favor mounted combat so it needs at least one perk that's really good else the class becomes kinda crap where mounted battle does not work.

[Draken]

You should probably build it as an EK mod, really.

So lets see...

Level 3 Feature
The big thing here is spellcasting. Draw from the cleric list. Cleric cantrips, the works. Limiting spell choices by school doesn't feel all that great to me. I would probably ditch it.
Weapon bond is pretty much a flavour thing. Could give one of those to the subclass as well.

Level 7 Feature
You could easily put bonus damage on attacks here. 1d6 tops, I think. It would scale somewhat comparatively with cantrip + bonus action attack for the EK. Could require that it burn concentration to keep the extra damage up, but not necessarily a spell slot.

Level 10 Feature
Looks like a good moment to hand out Channel Divinity to me. Turn Undead and perhaps a different, unique use? Not outright damage, probably. Plenty of that elsewhere. This is an utility level.

Level 15 Feature
Tough one. The EK gets mobility here. Well. The Paladin has had access to that Find Steed for 6 levels now. Sounds like a good moment to spread the love?

Level 18 Feature
The easy thing to do is crib Smite, but that is not interesting. The similarly easy thing to do here is to upgrade the level 7 feature to add more damage (and passively add damage without eating concentration, perhaps?) Either way, this is a damage level.
I would go with gaining another 1d6 damage on all attacks regardless of concentration. Stacking with the level 7.

-------

The structure outlined above would lead to most spells picked by a member of this class to be utility things, not direct damage, I think. Probably also relatively few concentration spells. This sounds about right to me, since at the end of the day you should be playing a fighter to kill things with your sword, not with fire from the heavens, unless said fire is on your sword.

Also, EK is fairly good, I say.

[MrStabby]

I think if I were DM I would be carefully looking for exploits here.

If someone came to me saying that they wanted a divine fighter class, themed to do extra magic damage from their weapons and fulfilling the roll of mounted knight then I would be asking what was wrong with the Paladin.

If the style matches (as it would take less latitude to accept new oaths or adjust the class a little) then I would be thinking that they were only in it to produce something to exploit something and would be very cautious about giving abilities. I would be most cautious of all about granting any abilities that other classes couldn't get at earlier levels.

I think both flavour-wise and mechanic-wise you really need to find a way to differentiate it from the Paladin. I think the class really needs to give a good answer to the question "why don't you play a Paladin?". Going from half magic to a third magic isn't a big shift, if the abilities are about adding more damage to your melee strikes that doesn't differentiate either... If you want the DM and the other players to accept this I would really try and make the differences between this class and the Paladin as big and as apparent as possible - both in style and how it will play in combat.

[HoarsHalberd]

Avoid adding flat damage to the class if at all possible. 4*d10 +d4 +5d4 + 25 = 62.
Vs 2*d10 +d4 +3d8 +15 = 41.5.

Full nova. Your Fighter - 114 twice per short rest.
Paladin - 109 once per long rest, getting 13.5 weaker each time it's used and using spell slots.

[MrStabby]

But that isn't a fair comparison as Nova damage is really the point of Paladins!







... oh, wait...

[HoarsHalberd]

But that isn't a fair comparison as Nova damage is really the point of Paladins!







... oh, wait...

Yup, both at will and nova are heavily in this new fighter's favour. Spell slots also end up favouring the concept class. Class features besides extra attacks and action surge vs smite +imp smite aren't the vast amount in the paladin's favour that would be necessary for the paladin to beat it on versatility by such a huge margin to overcome losing at the paladin's greatest point, its burst damage.

I'd also like to admit that I discounted gwf when doing the maths. RAI by tweet this loses a lot more damage for the fighter than the paladin. 8d10 +1d4 reroll 1's and 2's vs 2d10 +1 d4. RAW this becomes a lot more equivalent with 8d10 + 10d4 reroll 1's and 2's vs 2d10 + 15d6 + 1d4. This may actually cheat the paladin out of one or two damage points. But as it isn't RAI and as it gives me a headache I skipped it.

[Wolfsraine]

What about re-flavoring the Battle Master. Using the superiority dice to ignite your weapon with holy flames or whatever. You can repurpose all the maneuver to fit your needs. Trip Attack, rename it Zealous Flames of Justice! Pushing attack, Wave of Holy Thunderforce! etc, etc, etc.

In fact, I might just do this, because it's starting to sound awesome. Lol.

I do like the idea for one of the higher level perks to let you transform into a Flaming Avatar of War or something. Enemies that use sight to attack you have disadvantage and attacks due to the blinding nature of your holy flames and you have advantage on attacks due to them being basically blinded. Or perhaps when you activate your "Whatever cool ass name you can come up with" ability, everyone within 50' must make a saving throw or be blinded for x rounds.
While in this form you are immune to fire damage and all attacks you make deal (insert appropriate dice here) extra fire damage. Your body is able to sustain the form for rounds equal to your constitution modifier. You can hold the form longer, but for each round passed your con modifier that you hold it, you will suffer 1 level of exhaustion. Additionally while in this form unattended objects within a 10' radius of you have a high change of catching fire. Anyone that begins their turn within 10' of you takes 1d6 fire damage.

Anyway, I'd make the form something rather destructive and not to be used at every turn. A purifying fire or something along those lines. Burn the bad away, or good, depending on your alignment.

[xyianth]

I think if I were DM I would be carefully looking for exploits here.

If someone came to me saying that they wanted a divine fighter class, themed to do extra magic damage from their weapons and fulfilling the roll of mounted knight then I would be asking what was wrong with the Paladin.

If the style matches (as it would take less latitude to accept new oaths or adjust the class a little) then I would be thinking that they were only in it to produce something to exploit something and would be very cautious about giving abilities. I would be most cautious of all about granting any abilities that other classes couldn't get at earlier levels.

I think both flavour-wise and mechanic-wise you really need to find a way to differentiate it from the Paladin. I think the class really needs to give a good answer to the question "why don't you play a Paladin?". Going from half magic to a third magic isn't a big shift, if the abilities are about adding more damage to your melee strikes that doesn't differentiate either... If you want the DM and the other players to accept this I would really try and make the differences between this class and the Paladin as big and as apparent as possible - both in style and how it will play in combat.

Seriously? The paladin fluff, oath, and half spellcasting are pretty big aspects of a character. OP has clearly stated that it doesn't fit his concept. I have no idea why you think a new custom oath is somehow less problematic than a new custom archetype, hint: they are both subclasses that grant new abilities. There is nothing wrong with adding a new fighter subclass to handle this concept.


As to what abilities to add, I'd start by structuring it off EK as a base. Use the same spell progression chart. For spells and cantrips, unfortunately I think you need to go through the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, wizard, ranger, and paladin spell lists and create a custom list for this character to draw from. For spellcasting ability, I'd suggest charisma as opposed to wisdom. Charisma can represent the crusader's zeal better than wisdom can, and it gets rid of the complaints regarding wisdom being better than int as a stat. (as far as casting stats go in 5e, wis>cha>int)

A few quick suggestions for spells to include:

cantrips:

light, firebolt, produce flame, sacred fire, create bonfire, and control flames seem to fit perfectly as is.
prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, and druidcraft all seem close, might want to pick one and tailor it a bit.
minor illusion could fit if you refluff it to work via controlled mirages.
shillelagh could be retooled to fit: rename it burning brand, let it work with any weapon, change the weapon's damage type to fire, remove the use casting stat as attack stat benefit, and have it bump up the damage die of the weapon by 2 on the following chart: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->(1d12 or 2d6)->2d8->2d10. (this can be your extra flame damage mechanic, freeing up a class ability slot for something else)
blade ward could also be retooled to fit: rename it wreath of flame, change it to resistance to fire and radiant, add in that anyone that attacks you from within 5' takes 1d6 fire damage.

spells: (picked out some iconic flame/radiant crusader spells, feel free to expand/replace as desired)

bane, bless, burning hands, divine favor, faerie fire, grease, guiding bolt, hellish rebuke, jump, magic weapon, searing smite, shield of faith, silent image
blur, continual flame, find steed, flame blade, flaming sphere, heat metal, levitate, pyrotechnics, scorching ray
crusader's mantle, daylight, elemental weapon(fire only), fireball, flame arrows, melf's minute meteors
banishment, conjure minor elementals(fire only), fire shield, wall of fire


As for subclass features, you get 5 slots:

3: I'd honestly stick to a reflavored version of weapon bond, have the weapon bonding ritual be bathing the weapon in sacred flames, and the weapon summons to your hand as bolts of fire that take shape and form your weapon. Mechanically, it works identically to weapon bond from eldritch knights.
7: For this slot, I see no reason to not use war magic exactly as written.
10: For this slot, I'd go with something defensive. Inner Flame: As a reaction, whenever you are hit by fire damage, you take no damage and are instead healed by it.
15: I would expand on arcane charge a bit. This ability could be called Leaping Flame, and instead of teleportation it allows you to move up to your speed. This movement can pass through creatures and objects as long as a tiny creature could pass through it normally. You do not provoke opportunity attacks as part of this movement. Everywhere you travel leaves behind a wall of fire for 1d4 rounds.
18: As with war magic, I see no reason to not use improved war magic exactly as written.

To OP: there is actually a homebrew forum with lots of active homebrewers for 5e here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design&prefixid=DD_5e_Next). The audience there tends to be more favorable towards homebrew concepts than the audience here. In the future, you might get better support by posting something like this there instead.

[HoarsHalberd]

@xyianth, good homebrew attempt.


When you say up 2 on the chart, do you mean that a d12 becomes 2d10? Because that's hilariously op. That comes to +4.5 per attack. Action surge that's +36.

Maul/great's
At will. 64
Nova - 128

Polearm masters
65.5
121.5

Both substantially better than the previous build which was already insanely broken.

EDIT: should have read through the rest. God, that was broken.

[SharkForce]

Seriously? The paladin fluff, oath, and half spellcasting are pretty big aspects of a character. OP has clearly stated that it doesn't fit his concept. I have no idea why you think a new custom oath is somehow less problematic than a new custom archetype, hint: they are both subclasses that grant new abilities. There is nothing wrong with adding a new fighter subclass to handle this concept.


As to what abilities to add, I'd start by structuring it off EK as a base. Use the same spell progression chart. For spells and cantrips, unfortunately I think you need to go through the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, wizard, ranger, and paladin spell lists and create a custom list for this character to draw from. For spellcasting ability, I'd suggest charisma as opposed to wisdom. Charisma can represent the crusader's zeal better than wisdom can, and it gets rid of the complaints regarding wisdom being better than int as a stat. (as far as casting stats go in 5e, wis>cha>int)

A few quick suggestions for spells to include:

cantrips:

light, firebolt, produce flame, sacred fire, create bonfire, and control flames seem to fit perfectly as is.
prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, and druidcraft all seem close, might want to pick one and tailor it a bit.
minor illusion could fit if you refluff it to work via controlled mirages.
shillelagh could be retooled to fit: rename it burning brand, let it work with any weapon, change the weapon's damage type to fire, remove the use casting stat as attack stat benefit, and have it bump up the damage die of the weapon by 2 on the following chart: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->(1d12 or 2d6)->2d8->2d10. (this can be your extra flame damage mechanic, freeing up a class ability slot for something else)
blade ward could also be retooled to fit: rename it wreath of flame, change it to resistance to fire and radiant, add in that anyone that attacks you from within 5' takes 1d6 fire damage.

spells: (picked out some iconic flame/radiant crusader spells, feel free to expand/replace as desired)

bane, bless, burning hands, divine favor, faerie fire, grease, guiding bolt, hellish rebuke, jump, magic weapon, searing smite, shield of faith, silent image
blur, continual flame, find steed, flame blade, flaming sphere, heat metal, levitate, pyrotechnics, scorching ray
crusader's mantle, daylight, elemental weapon(fire only), fireball, flame arrows, melf's minute meteors
banishment, conjure minor elementals(fire only), fire shield, wall of fire


As for subclass features, you get 5 slots:

3: I'd honestly stick to a reflavored version of weapon bond, have the weapon bonding ritual be bathing the weapon in sacred flames, and the weapon summons to your hand as bolts of fire that take shape and form your weapon. Mechanically, it works identically to weapon bond from eldritch knights.
7: For this slot, I see no reason to not use war magic exactly as written.
10: For this slot, I'd go with something defensive. Inner Flame: As a reaction, whenever you are hit by fire damage, you take no damage and are instead healed by it.
15: I would expand on arcane charge a bit. This ability could be called Leaping Flame, and instead of teleportation it allows you to move up to your speed. This movement can pass through creatures and objects as long as a tiny creature could pass through it normally. You do not provoke opportunity attacks as part of this movement. Everywhere you travel leaves behind a wall of fire for 1d4 rounds.
18: As with war magic, I see no reason to not use improved war magic exactly as written.

To OP: there is actually a homebrew forum with lots of active homebrewers for 5e here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design&prefixid=DD_5e_Next). The audience there tends to be more favorable towards homebrew concepts than the audience here. In the future, you might get better support by posting something like this there instead.

you've just proposed giving this archetype fighter trivial access to a 2d10 damage weapon, immunity to fire, and infinite out-of-combat self healing to full 8 full levels earlier than the champion gets regeneration only when below half. an earlier suggestion gave something like a 50% DPR boost over what champion fighters get. sometimes, there is a reason why people don't approve of some homebrew. this is simply completely out of synch with where any other melee DPR class sits. if you want to talk about an overhaul to every melee DPR class (especially at higher levels), i wouldn't argue that point, but this is just making one archetype that is clearly above every other fighter archetype in the one thing that is the fighter's claim to fame.

the reason there's a lot of suggestion that he just make a new paladin is because he's doing a really bad job of explaining why he can't just be a paladin. the description of what he wants sounds almost *exactly* like a paladin, except for some reason he's fixating on how paladins are a half caster instead of a 1/3 caster, thus somehow rendering them completely unacceptable because apparently everyone in the world can look at you and instantly tell what class levels you have and knows what your spellcasting capabilities are.

if he can't ask his question clearly, he's not going to get the answer he wants. if he can't give a better reason than "paladins are a 1/2 caster", then he's going to get a lot of responses that amount to telling him that the class he wants to play is a paladin, with a path that would be similar (but probably not identical) to the vengeance oath paladin.

[xyianth]

@xyianth, good homebrew. Very much more balanced but...

When you say up 2 on the chart, do you mean that a d12 becomes 2d10? Because that's hilariously op. That comes to +4.5 per attack. Action surge that's +36.

At will. 61.
Nova - 122.

Well, that is what I meant by up 2 on the chart, though I didn't intend for the bonus to be that high... Maybe the chart should be: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->(1d12 or 2d6)->2d6->2d8?
That reduces the boost per die type as follows:

1d4 becomes 1d8, average boost = +2
1d6 becomes 1d10, average boost = +2
1d8 becomes (1d12, average boost = +2; or 2d6, average boost = +2.5)
1d10 becomes 2d6, average boost = +1.5
1d12 becomes 2d8, average boost = +2.5
2d6 becomes 2d8, average boost = +2

I did not want to punish d12 weapon use by making it lower on the chart than 2d6. I think I am ok with about a +2 damage per hit boost for the ability, since fire is heavily resisted. Any character using this class would do well to take the elemental adept feat. (another reason to make the bonus damage come from a cantrip, makes it count as spell damage while still being based on a weapon attack, allowing fighting styles to work as normal)

[HoarsHalberd]

Well, that is what I meant by up 2 on the chart, though I didn't intend for the bonus to be that high... Maybe the chart should be: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->(1d12 or 2d6)->2d6->2d8?
That reduces the boost per die type as follows:

1d4 becomes 1d8, average boost = +2
1d6 becomes 1d10, average boost = +2
1d8 becomes (1d12, average boost = +2; or 2d6, average boost = +2.5)
1d10 becomes 2d6, average boost = +1.5
1d12 becomes 2d8, average boost = +2.5
2d6 becomes 2d8, average boost = +2

I did not want to punish d12 weapon use by making it lower on the chart than 2d6. I think I am ok with about a +2 damage per hit boost for the ability, since fire is heavily resisted. Any character using this class would do well to take the elemental adept feat. (another reason to make the bonus damage come from a cantrip, makes it count as spell damage while still being based on a weapon attack, allowing fighting styles to work as normal)


More manageable now. But I forgot to account for elemental affinity. That renders gwf almost worthless and hence makes +1 ac better.

This build is still the best at will damage class in the game from this spell alone and hence would require some more balancing. I'd recommend making it a bonus action spell, level 1.

Also for the reaction, making it usable up to your fighter level per long rest should reign in some of the abuse.

[xyianth]

snip

<sarcasm>My apologies at offending you by trying to help suggest ideas as asked by the OP. Clearly, you are the divine authority around here.</sarcasm>

What actually happened is that I posted ideas, and clearly overlooked the possibility that the inner fire ability could be used to self heal (or cantrip healing in general for that matter). I'm not perfect, sue me. That possibility absolutely should be disallowed, which is something you could have suggested. I don't believe being immune to fire 1/round at the cost of your reaction is OP. (it has competition with plenty of other things: shield master, hellish rebuke, opportunity attacks, etc...) The 2d10 weapon is something I've already backpedaled on since that is too much.

This exact mentality and hostility is why I suggested that these types of things be posted in the homebrew forum. Rather than help contribute ideas and refine posted ones, you would rather bash the idea, bash the suggestions, and tell us to play the game as written because you said so. Is this really going to cause such harm to your gaming experience that you have to destroy it for others? If you think something is OP, please, fell free to suggest how to improve it or simply point it out. If you think homebrew should be disallowed universally, why are you reading a post about creating homebrew? If you aren't being constructive, you aren't adding anything to the discussion but hostility, and that helps no one.

When I stated that the audience was more favorable in the homebrew forum, that wasn't a insult to those that don't frequent it. I understand entirely that homebrew isn't for everyone. Why some of those types can't also realize that it can be for someone, I'll never understand.



More manageable now. But I forgot to account for elemental affinity. That renders gwf almost worthless and hence makes +1 ac better.

This build is still the best at will damage class in the game from this spell alone and hence would require some more balancing. I'd recommend making it a bonus action spell, level 1.

Also for the reaction, making it usable up to your fighter level per long rest should reign in some of the abuse.

Well, is there a reason this can't be the best at-will damage dealer? (who is currently the best at-will damage dealer?) I'm not opposed to the bonus action level 1 spell idea, just curious why adding approximately +2 damage/attack is considered unbalancing on a fighter, whose sole area of dominance is at-will DPR.

Regarding GWF, the game is kind of unbalanced already in favoring great weapons. I think it might be a feature that this incentivizes other styles, rather than a bug. This also helps out the at-will DPR concern a little as the 'better' combos might be 1 handed weapons + dueling style, which even boosted end up closer to what other fighters can do with great weapons.

I think maybe charisma mod per long rest might be a better use limitation if you keep the healing. If the healing is dropped, I don't think spending a reaction for a single instance of fire immunity at-will is OP.

[SharkForce]

well if they can't take criticism in the homebrew forums when someone points out a flaw, their homebrew isn't going to be very good. so i hope there *are* people pointing out reasons why something shouldn't be in the game there, because identifying a problem is the first step in fixing it (whether that comes with a suggestion on how to fix it or not). more people not being too polite to point out an error would lead to less errors if people were willing to listen to it.

so seriously, if people pointing out when there's a gamebreaking problem with a rule you've written is unwelcome, then put me on ignore and feel free to deal with having gamebreaking problems in the rules you write. i'm not going to not point out flaws just because you don't like it.

and i'm perfectly fine with homebrew. but so far, what has been described sounds a hell of a lot like a vengeance paladin (enemies of the church being their chosen enemy), with some minor changes, and a tendency to use their spells to fuel smites more than other possible uses. they're skilled warriors. they have an unreasoning hatred for the enemies of their church, to the point where they would cause problems if you invited them to a meeting with such people, even if there was a good reason for it. they get limited spell casting, and can use their zealotry to smite their hated enemies. if you're feeling particularly strongly about it, you can even splash a couple of fighter levels (or even 3) and pick up basically all the signature abilities of a fighter (well, you won't have indomitable... but you will have its much hotter sister instead, so that all works out).

homebrew is fine. but why re-invent the wheel? there's an extensively playtested product already available that does exactly what he's described as wanting.

and if that is not what he wants, then he needs to explain what he wants better.

[HoarsHalberd]

Because it ends up being flat better than the champion whose sole advantage is at will reliability, against better spike damage and utility from the BM and better versatility from the EK. This class combines the versatility of the ek, with better at will damage per round than the champion. Not to mention magic initiate and this can trip become mandatory for bladelocks.

However I would be amenable to some sort of rider effect as a spell."On criticals, targets are set on fire for 1d4 damage per round, an ally in contact with the targetor the target may spend one action to extinguish these flames. In addition if the target is a plant or undead it takes an additional 2 fire damage whenever struck."

Seem fair?

[xyianth]

Because it ends up being flat better than the champion whose sole advantage is at will reliability, against better spike damage and utility from the BM and better versatility from the EK. This class combines the versatility of the ek, with better at will damage per round than the champion. Not to mention magic initiate and this can trip become mandatory for bladelocks.

However I would be amenable to some sort of rider effect as a spell."On criticals, targets are set on fire for 1d4 damage per round, an ally in contact with the targetor the target may spend one action to extinguish these flames. In addition if the target is a plant or undead it takes an additional 2 fire damage whenever struck."

Seem fair?

It does indeed. I hadn't considered the possibility of other classes picking it up with feats. Let's bump it up to a 1st level spell as you suggest.



well if they can't take criticism in the homebrew forums when someone points out a flaw, their homebrew isn't going to be very good. so i hope there *are* people pointing out reasons why something shouldn't be in the game there, because identifying a problem is the first step in fixing it (whether that comes with a suggestion on how to fix it or not). more people not being too polite to point out an error would lead to less errors if people were willing to listen to it.

so seriously, if people pointing out when there's a gamebreaking problem with a rule you've written is unwelcome, then put me on ignore and feel free to deal with having gamebreaking problems in the rules you write. i'm not going to not point out flaws just because you don't like it.

and i'm perfectly fine with homebrew. but so far, what has been described sounds a hell of a lot like a vengeance paladin (enemies of the church being their chosen enemy), with some minor changes, and a tendency to use their spells to fuel smites more than other possible uses. they're skilled warriors. they have an unreasoning hatred for the enemies of their church, to the point where they would cause problems if you invited them to a meeting with such people, even if there was a good reason for it. they get limited spell casting, and can use their zealotry to smite their hated enemies. if you're feeling particularly strongly about it, you can even splash a couple of fighter levels (or even 3) and pick up basically all the signature abilities of a fighter (well, you won't have indomitable... but you will have its much hotter sister instead, so that all works out).

homebrew is fine. but why re-invent the wheel? there's an extensively playtested product already available that does exactly what he's described as wanting.

and if that is not what he wants, then he needs to explain what he wants better.

My apologies, I think I may have misread your earlier post's tone. (Tone is so hard to read online...) I absolutely encourage pointing out gamebreaking issues in homebrew, for example the inner flame ability I posted which was clearly broken. I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong, and it appears I was wrong quite a bit.

[Spacehamster]

Been thinking and while I want it to be a holy/fanatic type fighter thought instead of actual casting at level 3 you unlock a once per day spell which you choose from a list I have not made out yet, and as part of that perk you get to choose a new spell when a 33% caster gets level 2 spells and so on. This way you get less spells compared to another 33% caster. The other perks would be mainly focused around mounted combat(bigger bonus when mounted, bit smaller bonus when not mounted so the class does not get too niched).

[ChubbyRain]

If you go over to the Homebrew section and search around you will find a compilation of 5e homebrew. Within it may be something for you.

Also I'm pretty sure this should be in the homebrew section, asking for advice to homebrew falls under homebrew.

I recall seeing a Fighter (Geomancer) over there.