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Wooter
2007-04-10, 11:38 PM
I've always been bothered by the core races in D&D. There are the Half-Elves and the Half-Orcs, proving that the races can produce viable offspring. My question is why aren't there more mixed races. Why not a Half-Dwarf? A Half-Halfling? Perhaps a Half-Elf-Half-Orc?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-10, 11:40 PM
Because of this. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070203)

Kel_Arath
2007-04-10, 11:42 PM
and because every time a dwarf makes whoopi with a human, an angel loses its wings... and implodes
also half-orc/half-elf would be a freak...

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-10, 11:47 PM
The standard reason for fewer half-breeds would be that the other races can't safely reproduce(Halfling-Human could prove deadly, and genetics have some consideration) and that certain races don't interact enough in that manner to produce a sizable enough population for true specification to occur. Consider elves and orcs, these races are effectively taking part in a genocidal war with each other, so the likelihood of any offspring surviving (or even being produced) is to small to really take into consideration.

Though the real life answer is most likely that there isn't enough demand for wizards to go through the costs of making a new product, but you could always homebrew(and I remember a dwarf-human hybrid somewhere).

Helgraf
2007-04-10, 11:49 PM
Yeah, Dark Sun.

They were called Muls. And they were sterile.

Baerdog7
2007-04-10, 11:50 PM
There was a half-dwarven race called the Mul in Dark Sun, if that's what you were thinking of.

-Baerdog7

Edit: I was so simu-ed.

broderickdruce
2007-04-10, 11:53 PM
Because not everything is compatible. You can't have a Fish/Elephant or a Duck/Lion but you can have a Cabbit or Mule. Also this has been asked before.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34371&highlight=half-dwarf

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22373&highlight=half-dwarf

Half-Dwarf specifically;

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30416&highlight=half-dwarf

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20724&highlight=half-dwarf

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24132&highlight=half-dwarf

Hopefully those can be helpful to the discussion.

BCOVertigo
2007-04-10, 11:55 PM
For human/halfling just rename the strongheart halfling "the Quarterling" and call it a day.

Also dwarf or gnome / anything is unacceptable.

No.

Ponce
2007-04-11, 12:12 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html

Your ridiculous fallacies of these so-called "genetics" (*snicker*) clearly do not apply here.

But really, half-dwarf/half-gnolls? No one wants to see that walking around in public. Wear a bag, will you?

TheOOB
2007-04-11, 12:26 AM
Well lets see, probally because elves and orcs are the only races similar enough to humans to breed true.

Think of it, elves and orcs are both roughly the same in size, shape, and proportion, thus it is not too unusual that they can breed, much like how a donkey can breed with a horse.

Dwarves and gnomes, on the other hand are very different physically, much less human-ish, thus they probally can't breed together.

Halflings allready are just short humans, aside from their size most their differences are cultural, so the mating of a human and a halfling (size differences aside) would just make a human who is rather short, but still within the bounds of medium size.

In theory half-elf/half-orcs could be possible, but since both races hate eachother any such child would likely be killed at death. On the other hand, since Corelleon Latherian (god of elves) and Grummish(god of orcs) hate eachother, an orc/elf pairing may be impossible. The world may never know.

Tallis
2007-04-11, 12:49 AM
In theory half-elf/half-orcs could be possible, but since both races hate eachother any such child would likely be killed at death.

Well that seems a bit unnecessary.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-11, 12:54 AM
Well that seems a bit unnecessary.
Yeah, it does. Maybe he meant killed at birth.

Falconsflight
2007-04-11, 01:09 AM
I think the reason why there aren't more is becuase nobody really cares nor wants to play those. The entirety of DnD is adapted from movies, popular culture and popular mythology. Mainly it's from Tolkien, but I don't recall Monks in Tolkein, so I'm not just going to point in that direction.

But anyway, the point is among those said items there is (almost) no mention of Half dwarves, or half gnomes, or half-halflings. *shrugs* I don't know why, but there aren't. And without such references, they didn't want to add it.

It's the biggest attraction of DnD "I just read Lord of the rings! I wanna play Bilbo!" or "I just read a fantasy book! I want to play an elf that can shoot arrows really quickly" (Sorry, My mind isn't pulling up any books.) "I just saw a Jackie Chan movie. I wanna beat people up."

Since none of this is possible nor legal, they play it out in DnD. That's the why.

This has no bearign on house rules or other such varients of mixed races, so if you are past that stage and REALLY want to have some other race, just make it up. It's DnD...

Kyace
2007-04-11, 01:13 AM
Maybe humans are half-elf/half-orcs. It'd explain why they can mate with both.

Wooter
2007-04-11, 01:14 AM
Well I'm going to play a Half-Elf-Half-Orc someday. It will be the best character ever!

Also wasn't a Gnoll a half Gnome half Troll in 1e? How would that work?

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 01:27 AM
Well I'm going to play a Half-Elf-Half-Orc someday. It will be the best character ever!

Also wasn't a Gnoll a half Gnome half Troll in 1e? How would that work?


Half-Elf-Half-Orc, a race that has a racial charisma penalty AND a racial bonus to diplomacy.



For your second question, Classic edition is classic for a reason.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-11, 01:43 AM
There were gully-dwarves (or whatever) in Dragonlance, right? Half-dwarf, and repugnant to the point where the dwarves swore never to crossbreed again?

Darkxarth
2007-04-11, 03:22 AM
Aren't the Derro or Duergar half Human, half Dwarf? I can't seem to find the Derro in the d20 SRD, so maybe they got pulled during the 3.5 rehash?
:smallconfused:

Kantolin
2007-04-11, 03:56 AM
The reason?

The only race in the world perverted enough to run around sleeping with everything are humans.

I mean, when you tell someone "It's half-horse", nobody thinks mule. Everyone thinks Centaur, and the other half is human.

Sure, dragons try their darndest, they really do. But nobody quite does it like humans. There are no elf/orcs since neither elves nor orcs have those desires in enough quantity to produce a species.

There are half-dwarves... the dwarves just carefully work to cover this embarrasment up. 'Sides, then they can boast to the elves about it!

^_^

(My worlds, as a note, have a lot more part-races)

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-11, 04:01 AM
Because not everything is compatible. You can't have a Fish/Elephant or a Duck/Lion but you can have a Cabbit or Mule. Also this has been asked before.

*Smack* There is no such thing as a Cabbit!:smallannoyed: Darn urban legends.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 05:44 AM
Because not everything is compatible. You can't have a Fish/Elephant or a Duck/Lion but you can have a Cabbit or Mule. Also this has been asked before.


The owlbear says you're very insensitive to his subconscious identity crisis.

Arlanthe
2007-04-11, 06:20 AM
Given that a character has eight grandparents, we should invent the:

In-Eighths-Human-Dwarf-Elf-Orc-Halfling-Gnome-Gnoll-Kobold

Dervag
2007-04-11, 06:24 AM
Also wasn't a Gnoll a half Gnome half Troll in 1e? How would that work?No, no it was not. I've read the 1e Monster Manual; it was not.

As for the general topic, we already know that humans have a fairly polymorphous reproductive urge. If there were other humanoid species out there, it's a fair bet that you'd find humans interested in mating with those species.

However, a lot of the more unusual pseudo-human or semi-human species (centaurs, for instance) cannot reasonably be explained as the product of matings; instead, they have to be explained by "a god did it."

Alternatively, you can make the humanoid form one that different genetic types naturally trend towards. Old notions about things like the Great Chain of Being may actually apply in a fantasy world.

daggaz
2007-04-11, 06:28 AM
Maybe humans are half-elf/half-orcs. It'd explain why they can mate with both.

That is such a great idea, its going smack dab in the middle of my next campaign. (tho it will be a lost secret not known to anybody in the beginning).

Fhaolan
2007-04-11, 08:56 AM
Also wasn't a Gnoll a half Gnome half Troll in 1e? How would that work?

Nah, but you're close. It was in the red-book edition of Basic D&D. I quote the last sentence of the Gnoll entry: Gnolls are rumored to be the result of a magical combination of a gnome and a troll by an evil magic-user.

That sentence wasn't in the previous blue-book edition, but it may have been in the white-book edition prior to that. The oldest edition I have is the blue-book.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-11, 09:08 AM
Because if just anything could result in cross-racial pregnancies, D&D would have detailed rules for child-rearing and a good character's responsibilities toward their half-dryad childrens.

And I, for one, have no desire for my love for oversized psionics-using ladies to be sullied by the possibility of....I guess they'd be what, Quarter-giants?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-11, 09:23 AM
Easy answer- half-elves and half-orcs are the only two instances across the core races where mating can result in a hybrid race instead of one or the other. If an elf and a halfling were to boink, you'd get an elf or a halfling, never a half-halfling half-elf, because their genes can't mix that way. Hell, I'd be willing to say that half-elves and half-orcs are also a rare hybrid even when humans DO mate with these races, since a mix like that, according to what I recall from biology, would happen about 1/4th the time.

Maroon
2007-04-11, 09:34 AM
Easy answer- half-elves and half-orcs are the only two instances across the core races where mating can result in a hybrid race instead of one or the other. If an elf and a halfling were to boink, you'd get an elf or a halfling, never a half-halfling half-elf, because their genes can't mix that way. Hell, I'd be willing to say that half-elves and half-orcs are also a rare hybrid even when humans DO mate with these races, since a mix like that, according to what I recall from biology, would happen about 1/4th the time.

Actually, half of something plus half of something else is still half-half. Only when you look at single genes does something like that happen. If, say, skin color was determined by a single gene, and pink skin was dominant whle green skin recessive, and assuming humans only have pink and orcs only have green, there'd be a 75% chance the baby would have pink skin and a 25% chance the baby would have green skin.

hewhosaysfish
2007-04-11, 09:41 AM
Easy answer- half-elves and half-orcs are the only two instances across the core races where mating can result in a hybrid race instead of one or the other. If an elf and a halfling were to boink, you'd get an elf or a halfling, never a half-halfling half-elf, because their genes can't mix that way. Hell, I'd be willing to say that half-elves and half-orcs are also a rare hybrid even when humans DO mate with these races, since a mix like that, according to what I recall from biology, would happen about 1/4th the time.

Like 'A Muppet Christmas Carol's version of the Cratchit family? The sons were frogs and the daughters were pigs.

Edit:
Maroon, you're assuming that inheritance functions through genetics. In a fantasy world that may not be the case.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 04:06 PM
Like 'A Muppet Christmas Carol's version of the Cratchit family? The sons were frogs and the daughters were pigs.That's not even all too far-fetched from a biological standpoint. I mean, there are species that do all kinds of weird variants on what we consider "regular" sexual production. Bees, some lizards, mole rats, etc. So in this case it's not implausible that, say, the "Frog" gene is dominant, and on the Y-chromosome, but the "pig" gene is recessive but present on all X-chromosomes. Or something analogous to that. IRL it'd be more complex, obviously.

Woot, muppet DNA!

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 04:23 PM
Easy answer- half-elves and half-orcs are the only two instances across the core races where mating can result in a hybrid race instead of one or the other. If an elf and a halfling were to boink, you'd get an elf or a halfling, never a half-halfling half-elf, because their genes can't mix that way. Hell, I'd be willing to say that half-elves and half-orcs are also a rare hybrid even when humans DO mate with these races, since a mix like that, according to what I recall from biology, would happen about 1/4th the time.

I decided to expand this while writing up my homebrew world. I'll be honest, the existence of half elves and half orcs as standard player races really annoys me, they should be far too rare for that if they do exist. Decided to nip the problem by turning both elves and orcs into magically altered humans, with the magic ensuring that elf/human matings result in the child being whatever the mother is, and orcs and humans cannot breed at all.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-11, 05:06 PM
That's not even all too far-fetched from a biological standpoint. I mean, there are species that do all kinds of weird variants on what we consider "regular" sexual production. Bees, some lizards, mole rats, etc. So in this case it's not implausible that, say, the "Frog" gene is dominant, and on the Y-chromosome, but the "pig" gene is recessive but present on all X-chromosomes. Or something analogous to that. IRL it'd be more complex, obviously.

Woot, muppet DNA!

*ch-CHAK* Put the knife down and step away from my childhood.

Enzario
2007-04-11, 05:32 PM
Wait, if they are separate species, and can breed with each other to create a new species that breeds true...
*Whacks head with high school biology textbook*








Ah, right, magic.

alchahest
2007-04-11, 06:29 PM
aren't these freakish crossbreeds covered by Mongrelmen?

levi
2007-04-11, 07:07 PM
The real reason is that half-elves and half-orcs got the shaft on racial features, so there is no demand for more weak half-breeds.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 07:07 PM
*ch-CHAK* Put the knife down and step away from my childhood.Hey, look, my version is better than the lovecraftian nightmare beast you'd get if you actually crossed a pig with a frog, amirite?

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-11, 07:56 PM
I think that in Eberron, half-elf/human pairings always have either half-elf or human kids, half-elf/half-elf pairings always result in half-elves, and half-elf/full-elf pairings also always result in half-elves.

Half-orcs, on the other hand, actually interbreed in some manner that bears some vague relation to reality (with eighth-orcs and so on). If the orc side is dominant, you get half-orc stats; if the human side is dominant you look greenish and ugly but you get human stats; and if your orc ancestry is very dominant you're an orc.

Wooter
2007-04-11, 08:22 PM
Well I don't care. I'm going to make a Half-Elf-Half-Orc character named Eblis O'Shaughnessy. His Father was an Elf who fell in love with an Orc, and they had a child. The child being Eblis.

Belteshazzar
2007-04-11, 08:29 PM
I simply have most races (dragons, elves, dwarves and gnomes) be living incarnations of elemental spirits (the water race fled during a self accendental inflicted daemonic invasion). Hence the rare half-breeds of these races have to eventually chose which heritage to follow as in Tolkien's half-elves everyone forgets that Elrond's full title was Elrond Half-Elven (with the other half being mixed human and maiar.)

Innis Cabal
2007-04-11, 08:30 PM
same reason there are no half gnomes really, some races just know what not to breed with

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-11, 08:34 PM
Hey, look, my version is better than the lovecraftian nightmare beast you'd get if you actually crossed a pig with a frog, amirite?
Some of us happen to like Lovecraftian nightmare-beasts. :smalltongue:

Assassinfox
2007-04-11, 09:24 PM
So... there's a half-Dragon template for when a dragon does the horizontal dance with something. Then, there's the half-vampire template for when a vampire gets enough blood in its system to... you know... and then mates with something.

So... if a vampiric dragon mates with a human, do we get a Half-Dragon Half-Vampire Half-Human? :smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2007-04-11, 09:26 PM
yes, sort of.....i think? You would be half an undead dragon

Phoenix Talion
2007-04-11, 09:32 PM
A half-celestial half-vampire half elf made an appearance in one of the games I'm in. Not even kidding.

Blessed Seed from the BoEF, + an elven vampire + my human rogue. Yes, she slept with a vampire. Courtesy of Progammed Amnesia, though, my character did not remember having a kid, until the vampire in question informed her that he planned to sacrifice her in his quest for power.

There was a genuine reason for this, the requirements for the sacrifice being that it be related to the caster and of celestial blood. We had been looking nervously at the BBEG's sister, who was the elven equivalent of an aasimar.

Phoenix Talion
2007-04-25, 09:35 PM
Well, that sure killed the thread.

Artemician
2007-04-26, 05:01 AM
I'm too busy in this corner scrubbing my eyes out with bleach, don't mind me.

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-26, 05:49 AM
I'm stuck on imagining a prog or a frig or whatever you'd call a half frog half pig. It's like watching a car accident, you don't want to see it but morbid curiosity keeps you there.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-26, 06:35 AM
The internet provides!
http://www.realcaos.com/public/iotm/pictures/Pig_Frog.jpg

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-26, 07:31 AM
Curse you, Spider! CUUUUUUURSE YOOOOOOOOU!!! X(

lumberofdabeast
2007-04-26, 02:34 PM
Can't.... stop.... laughing....

Deme
2007-04-26, 05:16 PM
*foams in her corner* That image has been burned into my retinas.

brian c
2007-04-26, 05:24 PM
I'm stuck on imagining a prog or a frig or whatever you'd call a half frog half pig. It's like watching a car accident, you don't want to see it but morbid curiosity keeps you there.


The internet provides!
http://www.realcaos.com/public/iotm/pictures/Pig_Frog.jpg

I think frig is a good name for it.

TheThan
2007-04-26, 07:49 PM
Ahem

I present my take on the half elf/orc problem:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27581&highlight=half


oh and that pick wins this thread!