Married and Gaming

[themaque]

Often times, when two gamers get married they become a package deal. You want one, you get the other whether you wanted them or not. Luckily my wife knows that sometimes I enjoy games I wouldn't enjoy. and the rare game she enjoys that I don't means we game together when we can but allow each other free time.

UNFORTUNATELY When we game together and I am running, she feels I can be harder on her than the other players. Overcompensating for favoritism? Do I hold her to a higher standard? I dunno, I don't see it.

But what are YOUR experiences with married couples? Good or bad?

[ComaVision]

You should expand that. It's just as bad with boyfriends/girlfriends.

Not long ago, I kicked out a friend's girlfriend. She was terrible to have at games. As far as I'm aware, it hasn't caused him any problems. Not sure how I would have dealt with it if it was both or neither.

My girlfriend played in the last one-off game that I did while my brother was visiting. Her character got killed in the last fight. Another character had died earlier, I don't have difficulty being impartial. If I have a monster and I'm not sure who it'll attack (low intelligence and they're all within reach) I'll roll for it.

[Beta Centauri]

UNFORTUNATELY When we game together and I am running, she feels I can be harder on her than the other players. Overcompensating for favoritism? Do I hold her to a higher standard? I dunno, I don't see it. But she thinks you're doing it, which means there's something going on that she'd like consideration on. It could just be that you feel there's more trust between you. I'm hard on my gaming group, because we trust each other, but trust can get spent and the toughness can begin to grate.

Whatever it is, treat it as a real concern and see what you might be able to do about it.

[Segev]

If it's an actual problem, you can try keeping a log of decisions you make wrt her characters vs others'. You can also take an informal poll and see if the other players feel she's getting special treatment (or special mistreatment). The latter is less "scientific," but if there's a serious problem, they might at least have noticed it.

The Rifts game I'm in has a married couple in it; the wife is the GM. I don't think she shows any particular favoritism, though. Nor disfavoritism. (She tends to be on the "my initial reaction is 'no'" side of things as a GM, anyway, though she can be talked around.)

But a log of what decisions you've made for every character can let you get an accurate count of favorable and disfavorable decisions. Whether any discrepency is due to a player making eggregious requests is always a bit of a subjective judgment, but at least it can help you see if there IS one.

[BWR]

No problems that I've encountered. One of my groups has two couples in it and there's never been a problem that I'm aware of, even if one of the parties was the GM. I've played with my girlfriend in groups for ten years, both as players or with one or the other as GM. I haven't felt that we've treated each other or other players unfairly. Sure, sometimes we've had disagreements about GM rulings but I've never felt that our relationship has been the cause of or aggravated a disagreement (the only thing is she's not afraid to speak her mind to me in less diplomatic terms than the rest of us use with each other).
Since everyone else has stuck with us for years I feel fairly confident that we handle it pretty well.

[cobaltstarfire]

Often times, when two gamers get married they become a package deal. You want one, you get the other whether you wanted them or not. Luckily my wife knows that sometimes I enjoy games I wouldn't enjoy. and the rare game she enjoys that I don't means we game together when we can but allow each other free time.

UNFORTUNATELY When we game together and I am running, she feels I can be harder on her than the other players. Overcompensating for favoritism? Do I hold her to a higher standard? I dunno, I don't see it.

But what are YOUR experiences with married couples? Good or bad?

You might want to actually talk to your wife about that, maybe ask for examples or something.



My current DM would like to play games with his wife, but he does not under any circumstance want to play in any games where he is DMing over her because he feels it'll cause weird power dynamics and such.

My first long running GM was perfectly fine on the other hand GMing over her husband. She typically had him help her with certain co-gm sorts of things. (it was rolemaster, so he usually looked up all the charts for her ect). They were both fairly relaxed about things, and as far as I know had no issues.


I've never played with anyone who came as couples, but I did once DM a game where two players were ex's, and another player was someone one of the ex's turned out to be jealous of....that played out poorly. :\

[Kesnit]

My wife and I met through gaming, so playing together has always been an aspect of our relationship.

For several years, I played in various nWoD games that she was running. At one point, the other players told her that it is obvious that she was harder on me than she was on the other players.

We've played in several games together. Most of the time, we try to play PCs that wouldn't be a natural pairing, just so there isn't the temptation to team up. The one time we tried (me playing a Spellfire Channeler, her playing a Warlock to be my battery), the DM stopped us before we started by saying he didn't allow Spellfire.

I am currently running a D&D 3.5 game that she is playing in. I am making every effort not to favor her, and so far there haven't been any complaints.

[Maglubiyet]

I've seen the opposite scenario described by the OP. The GM totally played favorites with his new gf, who was a player. Not only did she get extra clues and rewards, but they would in-game cutsie talk and inside jokes/innuendo. It was weird.

My wife has never felt comfortable playing in a big group because she's worried she'd do something "wrong". Also weird, but what are you gonna do? I've run her through solo adventures in the same campaign worlds as the groups.

[Galen]

The GM totally played favorites with his new girlfriend, who was a player.

When we game together and I am running, my wife feels I can be harder on her than the other players.
That's how relationships develop. The first DM/Player fight really sets the tone.

[DigoDragon]

My wife and I never had a serious problem when I ran games. Occasionally we might get snarky with one another, but we managed to not take things personally with our gaming. When I was a player, we also never had anything like a love-couple with our characters. Sometimes one of us might get an NPC lover, but again, we know not to take it personally. Its just a game and not representative of how we act outside our characters. :smallsmile:

[Darth Ultron]

I've always had bad experiences with couples. So much so, I'll often avoid gaming with them.


Far, far, far, far too often you get a dysfunctional couple that just ''has'' to spend every second of the day together. So you get one gamer and one chair warmer. And that is not even the worst of it. They can go from chair warmer to ruining the game in seconds. The game can slow down to a crawl as you need to teach the other person in the couple how to play the game every five minutes, and worst of all they don't even try or care.

And even the better couples, like where they are both gamers, often don't work out. After all, a couple is a sub group within the game. Too often it's not like you get two players, you get one player. They will always work together and look out for each other. And often to far too much of an extreme.

For a recent example. Go to the new DM's house for a game....with his wife and baby. I knew things were going bad when the wife and the baby sat at the table ''to watch''. First off, the wife never stopped talking and disrupting the game. She just ''had'' to talk about everything right then. So it was hard to even play the game. And even when she left the room, she had to call him over every couple of minutes for some reason. So we'd have to stop the game as he just ''had'' to go find the Frosted Flakes...that she wanted to eat Sunday morning. The worst came about half way through the game when the DM ''had'' to stop the game and put the baby to bed and read a story. So, ok, they ''said''(though I'm sure it was a lie) that they took turns. And even if the turns thing was true, I did wonder why they could not switch for a night. The game was a total waste of everyone time, as we only got a half hour of real game play.

[Maglubiyet]

The worst came about half way through the game when the DM ''had'' to stop the game and put the baby to bed and read a story. So, ok, they ''said''(though I'm sure it was a lie) that they took turns. And even if the turns thing was true, I did wonder why they could not switch for a night. The game was a total waste of everyone time, as we only got a half hour of real game play.

If you ever have a wife and kids of your own, you'll understand. Anyway, it's not that complicated -- when you're a guest in someone else's home, when someone has given you the courtesy of hosting you, you play by their rules.

[mephnick]

I have a young son, too. It's hard to fit in gaming when you have real responsibilities. If some neckbeard got mad at my wife for being at home, or at me for doing the bedtime routine, I'd probably tell him to leave and come back when he's matured a bit.

[Darth Ultron]

If you ever have a wife and kids of your own, you'll understand. Anyway, it's not that complicated -- when you're a guest in someone else's home, when someone has given you the courtesy of hosting you, you play by their rules.

I'll never understand, I'm simply not that type of person.

See I don't get why a wife can't utterly leave her husband alone for a couple hours, unless the house explodes or something like that. It seems simple enough. The husband sits down to play a game in the dinning room and the wife and the baby go spend time in any other room of the house and do just about anything. And I don't quite grasp the concept of ''choosing to be an annoying idiot'' when they could just as well ''choose to be normal'' and not bother the husband for a couple hours. And there is no excuse for the putting the baby down thing. Like they really could not have switched nights?

Though I blame the DM too, for letting all of this happen.

[Maglubiyet]

{scrubbed}

[Anonymouswizard]

See I don't get why a wife can't utterly leave her husband alone for a couple hours, unless the house explodes or something like that.

This is the problem, although I can see why someone might be like this (if they both work awkward hours where they rarely see each other), but it's the same as if your spouses friends want to come over and have a film night, don't be rude, you can probably get something you want out of it (although I have never seen a married couple act in either way).

The only couple I've played with were fine, there's been jokes about GM's girlfriending, but the only actual benefit she gets is more opportunities for one-on-one scenes. It's actually the best group I've been in.

They also don't come as a pair, but it tends to work out like that in practice as they like the same sort of games. However this works, as they don't play pairs and don't ruin the game when they see through each other's shiftiness.

[themaque]

And there is no excuse for the putting the baby down thing. Like they really could not have switched nights?

I just can't help but feel you are wrong on this one. There are some things that take priority. Some things that are sacred. And for some people It's this moment. When a Father and son are sitting there, sharing a story. This can be the most important part of his day, and taking a 20 minute break in game is not going to be a crisis. I currently game at a couples house with kids. One or both often have to break away to deal with something. We just play around it. When bedtime rolls around, we know it's a full stop for a short while.

Yeah, she could have left him alone a bit more during the day, but that was the first game? People are trying for a new dynamic. You where a guest in THEIR world.

In defence of myself and my wife, the issue I mentioned was she was playing a Paladin and we where having... philosophical differences about her code of conduct. We actually decided she would just play things out, and if she fell she fell.

She herself is a little more Chaotic Good and I tend to be a little more Lawful. ;-)


What brought this thread up actually, was something I mentioned in the Worst Gamer Ever thread. We where playing with two new players, and he was... Well he was just creepy. put everyone on edge. SHE was perfectly lovely. She at one point even leaned over to her husband to say "Please don't get us kicked out of another group." Sadly we never called her again because other players where to uncomfortable with the idea of him in the house.

I've seen gamers as mentioned where they work together VERY well. Almost disconcertingly well. But as long as you are not playing a board game with them, I don't see the problem.

[Faily]

A man trying to be a good father and enjoying the precious moments in a baby's first year? Rage, uproar, consternation! Someone punish this man for being a decent human being!

Seriously, you come across as a very petty individual if you cannot give some space to someone who is the parent of a baby. It is a *very* time-consuming endeavour, and the fact that he still invites people over to play games with you shows how much he doesn't want to give up either of those things. The best thing to do is to be tolerant and understanding... eventually the kid will grow older and they will have more free time again. One of our players is a father of two and he had a hiatus and couldn't make it to many sessions when the kids were babies, and we were cool with it. If we play at his place now, we're all fine with him taking a break from the game to check up on the kids and put them to bed (last time we played there, his daughter kept coming in every 5 minutes or so to show off a drawing, which no one had a complaint against because that kid lives there :smalltongue: ) Another one became a father last year and we prepared ourselves ahead of time to run something light and casual until he returned.

Because, you know, being decent human beings and all.

[ComaVision]

I don't understand why everyone is giving Darth such a hard time.

I wouldn't plan a game for when I'm unable to play. The nature of D&D does not lend itself well to 30 minute sessions. Maybe that means the hours need to be moved around so D&D doesn't interfere with bed time or only happens on days where it's her turn.

If someone skips out on the game any time anything else comes up, I drop them from the group. I expect that people will put forth a reasonable effort to play the game. That goes for me as well, and I don't mind moving the hours around to accommodate someone.

[comicshorse]

Speaking personally the GM of our Changeling game ( 5 years plus and still going) always pauses the game so he can put his daughter to bed and strangely a 20 minute gap in 4 hour game doesn't damage it in the slightest

[DigoDragon]

When my daughter was a couple years old, she sat with us often on our gaming nights. The players often gave her dice and asked her to roll for them. She got to be part of the group this way, and sometimes would have amazingly good die roll streaks. :smallbiggrin:

[BootStrapTommy]

In my GM, Favors, and Experience thread, it is worth noting that the DMs wife is the forth member if the party. She's a whole level higher than us. Despite the DM's justifications, it was more or less favoritism. Making the fighter's annoyance with me even more misplaced...

[Darth Ultron]

{scrubbed}

So why does it being her house mean she can act like a jerk? And ok, it's her house again....so why can't she leave her husband alone for a couple hours?

I don't get the reaction of most people. How do most people think it's good that a wife and baby ruined game night? So a whole group of peoples fun is ruined by a wife who is a jerk and a DM who is a push over.

And ok, so why can't the wife be a ''decent human being''? Anyone have an answer for that? Why can't she say ''Well I'll leave my husband alone for a couple hours and let him relax and have fun''? Why is that such a big deal? Like if she and the baby don't see him for a couple hours they will wilt or something? If the wife could have just sat down in the living room and watched Frozen(again) she would not bother anyone for a while. So why could she not do that?

[Maglubiyet]

So why does it being her house mean she can act like a jerk? And ok, it's her house again....so why can't she leave her husband alone for a couple hours?

I missed the part where she was a jerk. She was actively being rude?

To a mother, especially a new mother, her child is the center of the universe. Many women assume that everyone else has the same priorities. And to be fair, out of the two activities, which do you think is more important: raising a child or playing a fantasy game?

Just remember you were a guest in someone's house. It might not have gone exactly the way you planned, but them hosting was a gift to you. Gratitude is generally the accepted emotion for a gift. Anything else and you come off as being a spoiled brat (how dare they pay more attention to their child than me!).

[themaque]

So why does it being her house mean she can act like a jerk? And ok, it's her house again....so why can't she leave her husband alone for a couple hours?
?

I said she might have been able to give him some more alone time, I've seen it happen. But some things that happened you mentioned as big faults, the putting to bed, we saw as typical parent stuff. Where kids take priority over game.

How upset was the HUSBAND at all this? Was he gasping or rolling his eyes? Or did he just say "excuse me please" and go do things? That could give some context to the story as well.

[nyjastul69]

I haven't had any personal problems with playing with married couples. The game I currently play in has a married couple that met, and married, during our games (multiple campaigns over a number of years). There hasn't been any favoritism that I can see. There is some relationship snippiness that happens, but nothing extreme. Certainly not more than any of get snippy at times.

They have a toddler now. He needs to be fed, bathed, and put to bed during our game. None of us have a problem with them taking the time to do so. It's not only my life and fun that are to be considered, everyone, in aggregate, needs to be considered.

Having said that, my experience prolly differs from many given the stories I've heard. Good luck with your game and social environment.

[Darth Ultron]

I missed the part where she was a jerk. She was actively being rude?

Well....she:

1.Sat at the table with the baby for no other reason then to bother her husband and disrupt the game.
2.Once she, finally, room she still had to bother her husband, constantly, for him to come over and do things for her.
3.She made her husband put the baby to bed..though he had guests over...when she could have done it herself



To a mother, especially a new mother, her child is the center of the universe. Many women assume that everyone else has the same priorities. And to be fair, out of the two activities, which do you think is more important: raising a child or playing a fantasy game?

Bit of a ridiculous question. How was she ''raising the child'', by just having the baby sit on her lap? But it's really too bad she was not more dedicated to ''raising her child''. She could have spent hours teaching the baby colors or something, far away in another room of the house, and she would not have disrupted the game at all.



Just remember you were a guest in someone's house. It might not have gone exactly the way you planned, but them hosting was a gift to you. Gratitude is generally the accepted emotion for a gift. Anything else and you come off as being a spoiled brat (how dare they pay more attention to their child than me!).

The guest thing is two ways though, right? Each person, guest and host, does and does not do things. It's not like the host gets a free pass to act like an insane jerk.

[mephnick]

{scrubbed}

[Phoenixguard09]

Well I'm not married but my girlfriend, who I've been with for three years now, plays in my group.

On the whole, we've not had too many problems. We have one player who had a predetermined idea of what gaming with us would be like, and so takes every opportunity to interpret rulings in her favour as favouritism, but I honestly think that the opposite is true and I am actually harder on her than the rest.

At least in terms of my expectations, if not as much 50/50 decisions. I try to remain as fair as possible with the decisions, but I tend towards the "Sure, but how do you want to do that?" spectrum of GM'ing.

Said friend with the issue with our relationship is currently running a game too, in which my girlfriend and I are both playing. He told us outright, without any prelude, that he would not accept a romantic relationship between our characters. That did put our noses out of joint, because both of us are quite private individuals and would not have even considered acting out a romantic relationship in front of other players to be adjudicated by him.

Anyway, we decided to play twins to explain the protectiveness and why we were so close, in a way which would prevent any romantic connotations.

So in my experience, playing with a significant other hasn't been the problem.

[goto124]

Said friend with the issue with our relationship is currently running a game too, in which my girlfriend and I are both playing. He told us outright, without any prelude, that he would not accept a romantic relationship between our characters. That did put our noses out of joint, because both of us are quite private individuals and would not have even considered acting out a romantic relationship in front of other players to be adjudicated by him.

Glad he voiced his concerns in a straightforward manner.

[Maglubiyet]

{scrubbed}

[Requiem_Jeer]

I think y'all are being a bit too harsh on Darth there. Yeah, the part with the putting the baby to bed? A perfectly reasonable disruption. All of the other ones? Less so. He (probably) wouldn't of complained about that instance if it wasn't the capstone of many other disruptions and annoyances.

But you're using that slight unreasonableness of his to be extremely dismissive of his problem, and that's not kosher. Gaming time is of limited supply, and the point stands that hosting or not, only a half hour of gaming got done, which is atrocious. His consternation with that evening's events is reasonable and I sympathize with the situation.

Should the guy of not put his kid to bed? Of course not, if the guy wanted to do storytime with his kid that's his right. But he should of taken a harder line on the previous disruptions.

[Killer Angel]

I won't eter in the debate "wife with child". It's hard to judge (but i think Requiem_Jeer may have a point).
But:


You should expand that. It's just as bad with boyfriends/girlfriends.

My experience, is that a married couple, is decisely better than a BF/GF couple. With the last ones, it's easier to see favoritisms, while for married couple, it's far less common.

[Phoenixguard09]

Glad he voiced his concerns in a straightforward manner.

I agree. I did not delve into how offensively he raised it with us, but we are used to him and his general lack of social graces, so we let it go.

The fact that someone would have an issue with running a game in which two characters were in a romantic relationship was not a problem. I wouldn't really want to be in that situation either.

I simply took offence at him telling us that we would derail his game by having our characters go off and have sex in the corner when he should know that neither of us would even consider doing that.

[pwykersotz]

I game with a husband/wife couple. They have two little kids, and are utterly devoted parents which leads to them being absent or distracted more often than not. The game is in their home for a variety of reasons, the primary one being that they wouldn't be able to game at all otherwise, and two of the other gamers are related to them (her dad, his brother).

Our game has "suffered" the same setbacks that Darth Ultron described. Wife asking husband to do trivial things in the middle of play, kids needing to go to bed, etc. Now, I love kids and while I have none of my own, I'm very sympathetic to the parents. The dad is the big gamer, and he does a very good job of prioritizing. I never have a single issue when he leaves to deal with something.

The wife is 50/50. The problem with her is less the kids though and more that she doesn't really respect the game as something valuable. She regards it like Sorry or Monopoly. So in the middle of the GM talking, she'll call out to the husband reminding him about some mortgage payment or that tomorrow some friend might drop by for lunch. My girlfriend is actually the same regarding video games, though she is typically reluctant to butt in on conversations, so she doesn't interrupt TTRPG's much. It often leads to 5-10 minutes of trying to get the game back on track, because the GM is a space case regarding interruptions, very easy to derail.

So yeah, it can be tough. I can respect the decision to not game with a married couple with kids or anyone who isn't invested in the experience, you'll notice substantially less 'gaming' than would otherwise occur. For me though, these are my good friends (the wife included) and not only is some game is better than no game, but when they are contributing it's a valuable addition. And really, that's what it comes down to. Boot 'em or play with 'em, there's no getting around their dynamic in their home.

[goto124]

I agree. I did not delve into how offensively he raised it with us, but we are used to him and his general lack of social graces, so we let it go.

Ouch. Sounds like someone who reads PRG forums (such as these ones!) a lot, and knows what he should or should not do, but has never really used them or put his knowledge into practice. So in his attempt to avoid future problems, he came off as rude.

It's great to hear that you let it go. Some things come with practice. Resisting urge to sing Let It Go song...

[Phoenixguard09]

Ouch. Sounds like someone who reads PRG forums (such as these ones!) a lot, and knows what he should or should not do, but has never really used them or put his knowledge into practice. So in his attempt to avoid future problems, he came off as rude.

It's great to hear that you let it go. Some things come with practice. Resisting urge to sing Let It Go song...

That and he tends to be a bit of, well, a **** to put it bluntly.

We love him. He's our ****, but he's a **** all the same. :smallbiggrin:

[themaque]

I think y'all are being a bit too harsh on Darth there. Yeah, the part with the putting the baby to bed? A perfectly reasonable disruption. All of the other ones? Less so. He (probably) wouldn't of complained about that instance if it wasn't the capstone of many other disruptions and annoyances.

But you're using that slight unreasonableness of his to be extremely dismissive of his problem, and that's not kosher. Gaming time is of limited supply, and the point stands that hosting or not, only a half hour of gaming got done, which is atrocious. His consternation with that evening's events is reasonable and I sympathize with the situation.

Should the guy of not put his kid to bed? Of course not, if the guy wanted to do storytime with his kid that's his right. But he should of taken a harder line on the previous disruptions.

I can agree with you on your statements. People can get... defensive when i comes to children. Cuts right through the logic into the hind brain. "MUST PROTECT CHILD!" Especially when presented in such a harsh way against the mother.

They probably could have reduced the number of interruptions. I wasn't firm enough in mentioning that, and I apologize. That's another reason why I was asking for the husbands reactions, to see if they where accepted interruptions or if she seemed to be nagging crossing a line with him as well.

Bedtime, we agree, is still and important duty.

[Jacob.Tyr]

I hate to side with Darth, but honestly I can only game for a few hours each week. I clear my schedule, arrive prepared and able to play and I expect everyone else to do the same (within reason). If I spend half the time sitting there while other players or the GM are distracted, I leave. It is frustrating and can be downright disrespectful.

That said, it sounded more like the guy and gal were still adjusting to having a newborn and might not have their personal/alone/gaming time figured out yet on top of all their new and old priorities. It is understandable, but after the first hour or so I could see myself bowing out and letting the GM know I'd love to come back at a more convenient time.

[themaque]

I hate to side with Darth, but honestly I can only game for a few hours each week. I clear my schedule, arrive prepared and able to play and I expect everyone else to do the same (within reason). If I spend half the time sitting there while other players or the GM are distracted, I leave. It is frustrating and can be downright disrespectful.

That said, it sounded more like the guy and gal were still adjusting to having a newborn and might not have their personal/alone/gaming time figured out yet on top of all their new and old priorities. It is understandable, but after the first hour or so I could see myself bowing out and letting the GM know I'd love to come back at a more convenient time.

If this has been how he presented the situation, I don't think the thread would have gone nearly as long.

[mephnick]

If she's on maternity the evening is probably the only time she gets to see other adults. So getting pissed that she's socializing with her husband and other adults when she has the chance seems petty.

But yes, the guy probably should have quit gaming for awhile while he raised his newborn. (I did) {scrubbed}

[Gritmonger]

I game. I also have kids. And somewhere in there I was married. Splitting duties does not always mean taking turns. It has always been my responsibility to read the stories, mostly because I do the voices.

I gamed with another couple and brought my own kids, since they had kids the same age. I suppose it is different if you have responsibility, or own a home you can invite others into. Child rearing should always take precedence over gaming, and if anyone accused me of being a jerk in my own home by caring for my own children, my longer patience, developed mostly due to those same children, would quickly find itself at an end.

[Amphetryon]

Well....she:

1.Sat at the table with the baby for no other reason then to bother her husband and disrupt the game.
2.Once she, finally, room she still had to bother her husband, constantly, for him to come over and do things for her.
3.She made her husband put the baby to bed..though he had guests over...when she could have done it herself

1. How did you determine that this was her sole motivation? Did she announce it? Did you ask?
2. Assuming I parsed this correctly, your complaint is that she asked him to take an active part in managing the household and fostering a strong relationship. How dare she.
3. As others have said, asking him to take his turn is not an egregious offense. For all we know, the child may be at the stage where one parent has better luck in settling the baby down for the night, or it may be a part of parenting which he particularly enjoys. If your argument is, in any way, that the game should come before parenting or family, you're unlikely to find much support for that POV. One is his hobby, one is his life.

[Kesnit]

Said friend with the issue with our relationship is currently running a game too, in which my girlfriend and I are both playing. He told us outright, without any prelude, that he would not accept a romantic relationship between our characters. That did put our noses out of joint, because both of us are quite private individuals and would not have even considered acting out a romantic relationship in front of other players to be adjudicated by him.

As others have said, it's possible he was trying to nip any issues in the bud before they started, but went about it in a confrontational way that wasn't his intent.

My now-wife and I met through a gaming group, then moved out of state for 3 years. We moved back a few months before our wedding and rejoined the same group. When we did, we were told they had implemented a rule that couples cannot sit next to each other during game. (While we were gone, another couple had formed in that group.) I think they feared we would be upset about it (since we had sat next to each other when we played 3 years prior), but we just shrugged and changed seats.

[Darth Ultron]

1. How did you determine that this was her sole motivation? Did she announce it? Did you ask?
2. Assuming I parsed this correctly, your complaint is that she asked him to take an active part in managing the household and fostering a strong relationship. How dare she.
3. As others have said, asking him to take his turn is not an egregious offense. For all we know, the child may be at the stage where one parent has better luck in settling the baby down for the night, or it may be a part of parenting which he particularly enjoys. If your argument is, in any way, that the game should come before parenting or family, you're unlikely to find much support for that POV. One is his hobby, one is his life.

1.Well, i'm describing exactly what she did. I'm sure she would say she was ''spending time with her hubby''. But when your husband is playing a game, and your not, and all you do is talk and stop him and everyone else from playing the game....what are you doing?

2.My complain is for the couple hours of game time she could not leave him alone. He could ''manage the household'' and ''foster his dysfunctional relationship'' in any of the other 115 hours of the week.

3.I guess by everyone's view I'm saying ''game before baby''. First if dad was such a baby daddy, he might have considered not even running a game. A ''sorry guys my baby takes up 24/7 of my life'' would have been fine and we all could have moved on and gamed elsewhere. And once you get the guests over to play, you can be a big enough man to skip baby bed night....just once. the same way he could have said ''sweet honey buns, can you go away so we can game''.

[Gritmonger]

{scrubbed}

[themaque]

OKay, guess that answers my questions.

SO, Darth Ultron only goes to games where you seriously get down and play. That means no houses with small children requiring assistance. Everyone is happier with this arraignment.


I tend to find Married couples a little more stable than people just dating. Of course obvious exceptions are marriages in trouble.

[Gritmonger]

OKay, guess that answers my questions.

SO, Darth Ultron only goes to games where you seriously get down and play. That means no houses with small children requiring assistance. Everyone is happier with this arraignment.


I tend to find Married couples a little more stable than people just dating. Of course obvious exceptions are marriages in trouble.

I see what you did there...

[Mr Beer]

Well....she:

1.Sat at the table with the baby for no other reason then to bother her husband and disrupt the game.
2.Once she, finally, room she still had to bother her husband, constantly, for him to come over and do things for her.
3.She made her husband put the baby to bed..though he had guests over...when she could have done it herself

I have had exactly this experience, due to a player's dysfunctional marriage with his dysfunctional wife ruining an entire day of gaming with her dysfunctional behaviour. Basically she wouldn't or couldn't shut up and let the game happen, no she had to make continual interruptions and exhibit annoying clinginess and nagging.

Not liking such behaviour is in no way indicative of being a teenager or being overly judgemental or inexperienced with adult interpersonal relationships. I'm with you 100% on this issue.

BTW my own wife has zero interest in gaming but somehow manages not to mess up my games, which run once or twice a month. It's not difficult for a normal human being to manage non-disruptive behaviour.

EDIT

Also, people jumping all over your nuts because of the baby thing is silly, it sounds to me like it's one incident amongst many. If you had a problem with an otherwise uninterrupted game being put on hold for 10 minutes for parenting duty, yes that's being unreasonable.

EDIT2

Thinking about it, when I game at the other guys' places, their SOs also manage not to mess it up for the rest of us. It's definitely certain kind of partner that feels the need to intrude on hobby time.

[daemonaetea]

My wife and I game together, and I've never heard anyone complain about us - in a group that usually is pretty open about complaints. When we're both playing, we might have our characters starting out in a default friendly fashion, or previous acquaintances, but we've never done the romance thing in game. When I DM, I've tried to be very careful to treat her the same as everyone else. Since no one's ever said or implied to me otherwise, I'm hoping it's worked. To the extent that she's gotten special treatment, it's that I'll provide background information that she's interested in that doesn't really impact the game and probably won't come up.

For instance, in one game I ran she was really interested in one NPC in particular, so I ended up running a short campaign just for her where she got to see part of that NPCs past, and learn more about the lore of the world. It was nothing that really interacted with the rest of the game, but it was something she was interested in that I we could pursue since we have more gaming opportunities together than with the group, ie we live with each other.

The kid thing I won't touch. To be honest, we're a bit guilty of that in our groups. We game with two separate groups, both of which game at our house for a variety of reasons. We also have a one year old who we basically share duties on when we game. Is she sometimes disruptive? Yes, I'll admit that. If we had family nearby that could watch her we would probably do that, but we're 8 hours from the nearest family we have. Although she's disruptive, both groups put up with it because: 1. It's our house, so they don't really wanna complain about her, 2. Although they could move to a different house and game without us - which I would not object to, and would totally understand - that would take the reliable player count for both groups from 1 DM/4 Players to 1 DM/2 Players, which they aren't much interested in, with additional hope of 3. They enjoy gaming with us enough to put up with the occasional crying.

The situation isn't perfect, and we hope to eventually be able to get her a sitter for at least part of the gaming time. But for now, the situation is what it is, and I'm really appreciative that they've worked with us to make things work out.

(I would have listed 4. Our daughter is adorable and awesome, but I'm willing to accept that's the parent coming out and others might not be as endeared to her as we are. As soon as we can teach her to roll dice and not eat them we should be good to go.)

[goto124]

The Campaign Logs thread features a baby girl who eats character sheets :D

[Darth Ultron]

{scrubbed}

If he would have been honest and said ''do you want to come over and no play a RPG'', I would have not come at all. Oddly when he said ''Come over and lets play an RPG'' I thought that is what he meant we would be doing.



SO, Darth Ultron only goes to games where you seriously get down and play. That means no houses with small children requiring assistance.

Well, no houses with any children with over zealous parents.


But that is just one example. So many marriages are bad, unhealthy, troubled or just down right wrong that they simply ruin anything around them. A fun game night...well not if Fred and Donna are there.

[Gritmonger]

{scrubbed}

[Darth Ultron]

Do you really think for a second that any parent worth their salt wouldn't drop everything to do with a group the moment their child was hurt, in trouble, or needed them, including for issues of consistency which are crucial to child rearing, such as bedtime rituals? If you have different expectations than that, you'd best change your screening process to include "No parents, ever, as either players or DMs."

Well, the baby did not suffer a massive emergency...it was just sitting there. And mom and baby could have gone to sit in any other room of the house.

And bed time ritual? Really? Seems a bit much. I don't think that dad not tucking baby in one night will scar the kid for life.

The problem is not ''that they have kids'', it's more ''the parents don't know how to act right''.

[grub]

With most kids I've known you don't interrupt a routine.

If we were gaming at my house and I was the DM I'd probably let my wife know that game time was not time for chatting but bedtime would still happen.

[Galen]

And bed time ritual? Really? Seems a bit much. I don't think that dad not tucking baby in one night will scar the kid for life.You know, there are people in this world that would redefine the problem as "and the pretending to be an elf ritual? It's not like not pretending to be an elf one night would scar Darth Ultron for life". Not sure if you're aware of it, but these people are in fact the majority. They are what we around these parts call humankind. Gotta learn to live with them, bud. We're all in it together. Even the 99,9% of the population who will never get the pretending-to-be-an-elf thing. They're our brothers and sisters. Figuratively, and sometimes literally.

[huttj509]

In my 15 years of gaming with people with girlfriends, boyfriends, spouses, I've never had it be an issue when multiple folks in a relationship were at the same table.

Part of it is that for the most part, my gaming is done with good friends (some of whom I've been gaming with for those 15 years). When J was DMing, he wanted D to be happy and have fun, sure, but he wanted all of us to be happy and have fun too.

Small children? It depends a lot on expectations. One couple (both friends), it was well understood that we might have an afk mid raid or mid fight if one of the girls was being fussy. Everyone in the party knew them, knew the situation, and while it was annoying a couple of times it never reached the "how dare they" level (I found the folks who signed up, were accepted/scheduled, and never showed or were an unexpected half hour late with no word much more aggravating. Cmon, drop someone a text if work's running late).

Current TTRPG group has a 3 year old involved. It's needed adjustment when session's been cut short due to fussy baby (especially since I drive 40 mins each way). Another campaign with them has been less aggrivating when I adjusted to "start at 7:30" means "arrive at 7:30 so the kid gets used to people being around and has a chance to say hi (otherwise he gets fussy), then wait at 8 while he's put to bed, then game can start at 8:30." I bring my DS. :-)

The thing is, by now, I know the situation and what to expect. It really does make a difference.

[Kesnit]

Do you really think for a second that any parent worth their salt wouldn't drop everything to do with a group the moment their child was hurt, in trouble, or needed them, including for issues of consistency which are crucial to child rearing, such as bedtime rituals?

Putting the baby to bed was the last in a long string of issues for DU. Most of the things he referenced were not emergencies or family routines, but things like "honey, could you get the cereal out of the cabinet for me? I need it for breakfast tomorrow."

[DigoDragon]

The Campaign Logs thread features a baby girl who eats character sheets :D

My daughter has eaten a character sheet of mine early one session. Se was like, 8 months at the time so it was understandable. XD

My group had a lot of patience with my baby girl since her birth, and as the years went by it got easier to have her around. When it was time to tuck my girl into bed the group often would do a food run while they waited. Currently it's been over a year since my group disbanded itself and sometimes my daughter asks what ever happened to the "Dungeon Game". She misses rolling the dice. I do too.

[Gravitron5000]

{scrubbed}

So, if I invite some friends over for dinner, but due to distractions from my SO, I only manage to provide a snack before everyone has to leave, they would not be understandably somewhat peeved? I would not go so far as to say I was a jerk, but I was definitely a bad host. Inviting someone into your space may be a gift to them, but it's a pretty sour gift if you are not up to properly hosting whatever event you invited people over for.

[Knaight]

Agreed. It's about the only thing that would make sense about someone getting mad at a woman for "making her husband put the baby to bed" in her own house.
Alternately, it's more about being annoyed at being invited somewhere to do a thing, and then not doing said thing. I'd be annoyed if I had to manage a bunch of logistics, travel a decent distance, showed up as a guest, and then had the host having scheduled a bunch of unrelated stuff at the same time which had me just sitting there. It would be one matter if there was an unplanned aspect - stuff comes up, that's understandable, particularly with a kid. Inviting a bunch of people over knowing full well that you're going to largely ignore them is at least somewhat rude.

The one interruption involving putting the kid to bed is likely a necessary bit of scheduling, and if that time is when things have to be scheduled for it absolutely is something important. A lot of the rest though sounds like general bad hosting.


Just remember you were a guest in someone's house. It might not have gone exactly the way you planned, but them hosting was a gift to you. Gratitude is generally the accepted emotion for a gift. Anything else and you come off as being a spoiled brat (how dare they pay more attention to their child than me!).
By this logic, a host can do no wrong. Gratitude is generally the accepted emotion for a gift, but there are notable exceptions there for some types of gifts, hosting included. To take an extreme example, if you invite a bunch of guests over to a dinner party and then spend the entire dinner harshly criticizing them with a bunch of jabs at their professions, weight, religion, or other touchy subjects, your "gift" isn't going to get gratitude, and the absence of gratitude isn't going to make the person receiving the gift seem like a spoiled brat. Neglecting hosting duties is a lot milder than that, but it operates within the same paradigm wherein the reaction to gifts does have some leeway.

[themaque]

So, if I invite some friends over for dinner, but due to distractions from my SO, I only manage to provide a snack before everyone has to leave, they would not be understandably somewhat peeved? I would not go so far as to say I was a jerk, but I was definitely a bad host. Inviting someone into your space may be a gift to them, but it's a pretty sour gift if you are not up to properly hosting whatever event you invited people over for.


judging from Gritmonger's other posts, he's not normally so curt. Darth Ultron's attitude has a way of bringing out the best in people. :-D

[Gritmonger]

Its kids. Complain all you want about people, personality, logistics. The moment a person insists their homage to whatever fantasy genre self-insert rates above my kid complaining their ear hurts...

Nope. No, it does not. Your ability to play the character you wish in a fantasy setting is not a life-shaping moment that can determine a future adult's attachment and trust issues as well as self esteem.

And I've put up with far worse than what he is complaining about. So you'll pardon me if I don't shed any crocodile tears for one lost session of gaming.

[Synovia]

Do you really think for a second that any parent worth their salt wouldn't drop everything to do with a group the moment their child was hurt, in trouble, or needed them, including for issues of consistency which are crucial to child rearing, such as bedtime rituals? If you have different expectations than that, you'd best change your screening process to include "No parents, ever, as either players or DMs."

.

"Where are the frosted flakes" is none of these things. Pandering to your children every second of the day is not a crucial part of child rearing - children can be told "no" without ruining their lives.

If you can't actually take the time and play, you shouldn't be inviting people over your house to play. While guests have some responsibilities - hosts have more. When you invite 5 or so people over to your house to do something and they waste most of their nights doing nothing while you do something else - you've been a rude host.

[Gritmonger]

"Where are the frosted flakes" is none of these things. Pandering to your children every second of the day is not a crucial part of child rearing - children can be told "no" without ruining their lives.

If you can't actually take the time and play, you shouldn't be inviting people over your house to play. While guests have some responsibilities - hosts have more. When you invite 5 or so people over to your house to do something and they waste most of their nights doing nothing while you do something else - you've been a rude host.

Pandering to your children.
Putting your kid to bed is pandering.


Instead of pandering to a self-important "guest."


I'd consider any time with a person with such an attitude as wasted no matter the circumstance.

[Red Fel]

"Where are the frosted flakes" is none of these things. Pandering to your children every second of the day is not a crucial part of child rearing - children can be told "no" without ruining their lives.

Here's the thing. For many children, particularly young children, "Where are the Frosted Flakes" is just as urgent as "I am bleeding from orifices." Young children don't always have a sense of scale when it comes to urgency.

But that doesn't mean you don't respond. Now, you might gently remind the kid that being unable to find the cereal is not an emergency, but "not pandering" is not the same thing as saying "Dang it, Timmy, Daddy's fighting the dragon! Now is not the time to bother Daddy!" There is a sliding scale when it comes to how much response is appropriate, and "none" is pretty rare.

Frankly, I understand the frustration on both sides. A lot of one side reads like "This is my time you're wasting," which is a fair statement. A lot of the other side reads like "Family comes first," which is also a fair statement.

Ultimately, however, there comes a point where you have to choose. People with families make their choice; family comes first, and if they can't or won't get a sitter, that means there might be a juvenile at the table (other than the ones already there, har har, I made a funny). If that choice is such an inconvenience to you, so much so that it ruins your enjoyment, I'll come right out and say it: Drop the game.

I'm not making a value judgment here. I'm serious. People on these boards have complained of bad DMs, of bad players, of bad gaming environments. And it always comes down to the same advice: If you can address the problem, do so, and if you can't and it's serious, walk away.

Now, if you're in an area where gaming groups are abundant, great; you can find one where there are no married couples, or no people with kids, or where there are people who regularly hire a sitter. You can find one with people who respect your schedule. If you're not in an area where gaming groups are abundant, you have to decide if the frustration of these interruptions is worth losing out on getting your gaming fix. It's a choice you have to make for yourself.

My issue is with those who say that the problem is with the married couple, or with the people with kids; that somehow these are the people in the wrong, and they have an obligation to fix things. This type of argument starts to sound to me like that League of Legends letter that circulated awhile back, with some entitled players explaining to the parents of kids that these parents were in the wrong for kicking their kids off of LoL, because it was inconsiderate to the other players. My response to that is this:

Nope.

Their problems are their problems, their judgment calls are their judgment calls. If you have an issue with their decisions, it's fine to tell them you're bothered by the presence of the distracting significant other or offspring. But if it remains a problem, they owe you nothing. Their first and foremost obligations are to their families, not to you. And if you don't like it, you know where the door is. Find a group that doesn't bother you with these inconveniences.

[Galen]

This type of argument starts to sound to me like that League of Legends letter that circulated awhile back, with some entitled players explaining to the parents of kids that these parents were in the wrong for kicking their kids off of LoL, because it was inconsiderate to the other players.Thank you for pointing me to this. I mean, holy cow. Wow. The level of delusional entitlement oozing from this post. Just .... wow. Proves the old adage "there are no useless people. If nothing else, you can serve a bad example".

[Synovia]

Nobody said to ignore the children - this is a perfect time to teach children about priorities, and about respecting other people. Every moment with children is a teaching moment - I don't want to teach my children that it's okay to waste a whole bunch of my guests time because of something trivial.

[ComaVision]

Red Fel said it really well.

I don't care whether parents with kids bothers anyone or not, it's up to each player whether they want to be a part of a group or not. The problem was DU didn't have the information he needed to decide ahead of time, and thus wasted his evening (by his criterion because it is his POV). I don't think DU will game there again if it's likely to play out the same way.

Personally, I have little tolerance for that sort of thing. I don't think I could enjoy a game with a toddler about that may or may not cry at any interval. It's not the host's job to make sure their child is gone but it's my responsibility to myself to not be a part of a game that I can not enjoy.

[Maglubiyet]

By this logic, a host can do no wrong. Gratitude is generally the accepted emotion for a gift, but there are notable exceptions there for some types of gifts, hosting included. To take an extreme example, if you invite a bunch of guests over to a dinner party and then spend the entire dinner harshly criticizing them with a bunch of jabs at their professions, weight, religion, or other touchy subjects, your "gift" isn't going to get gratitude, and the absence of gratitude isn't going to make the person receiving the gift seem like a spoiled brat. Neglecting hosting duties is a lot milder than that, but it operates within the same paradigm wherein the reaction to gifts does have some leeway.

In the case of a couple with a very young child, I'm willing to cut some slack. It's a huge inconvenience even to try hosting under those circumstances so an honest effort is appreciated. There's a big difference between a malicious host and one who's doing the best they can under the circumstances. If you require a higher level of hospitality, then you are under no obligation to stay, just don't be a d*** about it.

Also there's a matter of understanding gaming etiquette. If the wife isn't a gamer then maybe she just thinks an RPG is a bunch of people sitting around socializing (which it sort of is). She may not understand the role of the DM as being pivotal to the continued flow of the game, nor sense the times of dramatic tension or rise and fall of the action. For some people, when having a party it's "the more the merrier" -- she may honestly believe she is making it more fun by including herself and the kid.

From DU's narrative it sounds more like this type of scenario than the other type where the wife has the attitude of "what are these people doing in my house".

[themaque]

We could easily open a whole side thread based on gaming environments.

In fact I just made one. The Gaming Environment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405364-The-Gaming-enviroment&p=19001212#post19001212)

[Galen]

If you require a higher level of hospitality, then you are under no obligation to stay, just don't be a d*** about it.
Agreed. And generally speaking, it's very difficult to make a "let me teach you how to properly raise your children so I can better play my game" post without coming out of it looking bad. Not many people can pull it off.

[Segev]

I do not think Darth Ultron is being unreasonable here, given what we know. (There could be other factors, but we don't know them.) Evaluating it from that perspective...

It is not unreasonable to expect to do what one is invited over to do. It is not unreasonable to prioritize family over gaming. It is, however, rude to get people to invest their own time and effort into being present and available for an activity, and then choose to go perform the other activity you determine is higher priority.

Darth Ultron could have spent that evening in some other, more enjoyable fashion. He could have spared the effort put into being there, or have directed it towards something else. It was not polite to say, "I am going to run a game," and then not do so.


Imagine if I were to invite you over to my house for the Super Bowl. I get you all gathered together to watch the big game in my living room, and then my wife sits down with our child in her lap in front of the TV and proceeds to talk over the game. She insists, when she leaves the room, that I turn off the TV and come help her with various tasks every few minutes. By the time the night is over, the game's been mostly missed due to these repeated interruptions, disruptions, and family rituals.

You could have gone to somebody else's place to watch the game, or you could have stayed home and watched it, or you could even have just gone out to a movie with some other friends. Instead, you sat awkwardly in my living room around a darkened TV for most of the evening, or listening to my wife chatter while standing in front of the TV and blocking anybody from seeing or hearing it.

It is my wife's and my fault that your evening was unpleasant, and that we wasted your time.

If my child is that much more important to me than the game and my guests' ability to watch it, such that everyday things which could be done before or after the game take precedence over the limited-time-window event of the game, then I should not invite people over to watch the super bowl.


(I will note that I am not, IRL, married, and would not actually invite people over to watch the super bowl in the first place. But by way of allegory...)


If Darth Ultron's friend had invited people over to hang out with him and his family, that would be one thing. That would not preclude all these distractions; people would just talk through them and move the hanging out to wherever the distraction is being handled.

But that's not what he was invited over for. The game should have been cancelled if this is how it's to be run. That's how you properly prioritize your family over a game. Not by inconsiderately asking others to give up their evening only for you to fail to let their evening be spent as advertized, but by letting them know that you're too busy to run it.

[Jacob.Tyr]

As a general rule, if you find yourself getting angry at A) A Child, B) Your host, C) your host's spouse, D) All of the above, the appropriate response is to leave. If you have to be there, then maybe bring it up with the parents.

I sometimes game with people that have kids, and generally they're more on top of making sure that gaming time is used for gaming than anyone else. If once a month they get a few hours to game, barring an emergency situation, they make sure they can game during that time without disruption. They have to work 10X as hard to get that chunk of spare time, and if they have it and invite you to be part of it, that's an honor. If it isn't working out, please see above rule.

On Topic: I've never had issues with a married or serious couple at a gaming table. Usually by that point if they're both showing up, they've both gamed before and probably together. This is the big difference in married/domestic partners/common law whatevers from boyfriend/girlfriend. My partner doesn't play D&D, so those nights are my time. We know this about each other at this point, and no issues arise.

[Jayabalard]

A man trying to be a good father and enjoying the precious moments in a baby's first year? Rage, uproar, consternation! Someone punish this man for being a decent human being!indeed. I feel kind of sad seeing someone state that they'll never be the type of person to understand that...

[Synovia]

As a general rule, if you find yourself getting angry at A) A Child, B) Your host, C) your host's spouse, D) All of the above, the appropriate response is to leave. If you have to be there, then maybe bring it up with the parents.


Of course - but this doesn't relieve the host from the responsibility to treat his guests courteously.

There's nothing wrong with a father spending time with his children, and there's nothing wrong with a parent thinking his children are more important than his friends. There is a problem with not respecting the fact that your friends' time is valuable too - and wasting their valuable time as an afterthought. Having children doesn't give you carte blanche to abuse your friends.

[Galen]

Of course - but this doesn't relieve the host from the responsibility to treat his guests courteously.

There's nothing wrong with a father spending time with his children, and there's nothing wrong with a parent thinking his children are more important than his friends. There is a problem with not respecting the fact that your friends' time is valuable too - and wasting their valuable time as an afterthought. Having children doesn't give you carte blanche to abuse your friends.
He did not abuse anyone. They were sitting at a table, talking to each other, and eating snacks. Darth Ultron made a big deal out of pointing out that "there was no emergency" and that "the child wasn't bleeding". Guess what: neither of the people at the table was in no state of emergency and wasn't bleeding either. They just pretended to be Elves for slightly less time than they wanted. Nobody was "abused". {scrubbed}

[Red Fel]

Of course - but this doesn't relieve the host from the responsibility to treat his guests courteously.

Agreed, but then there's this:


Having children doesn't give you carte blanche to abuse your friends.

There's a difference between discourtesy and abuse. If a host is discourteous, you should leave his home. If a player (or DM!) is abusive, he should leave your group.

In the case of the host who brings his disinterested significant other and/or distracting children to the table, I will readily agree he is a bit discourteous for doing so. He could have arranged for a sitter, or asked the significant other to be elsewhere, or taken any number of proactive steps to prevent disruptions. He failed to do so, and that makes him a somewhat poor host, I'll admit.

But it doesn't make him abusive.

If someone is a discourteous host, you can talk to him about it, politely. If his choices ruin your fun, however, the burden is on you to leave, not on him to change his decisions (which may not be 100% within his control).

If this were an actively abusive person, you would be well within your rights to ask the other players to come together and urge him to correct his behaviors or leave the group. But this isn't the case of the player who flips tables, the DM who gleefully kills off characters when questioned, or that one guy who is just as coarse and offensive as possible. This is a case of someone trying to balance family and hobby, and admittedly doing a less-than-stellar job of it. That's not abusive, it's just poor judgment and unfortunate. Is he at fault for his own circumstances? Probably. Possibly. But when there is only so much he can do (e.g. the sitter is unavailable, significant other insisted on attending over protests), the burden is on the aggrieved party to resolve his own situation, not on the host who is doing the best he can.

[ComaVision]

He did not abuse anyone. They were sitting at a table, talking to each other, and eating snacks. Darth Ultron made a big deal out of pointing out that "there was no emergency" and that "the child wasn't bleeding". Guess what: neither of the people at the table was in no state of emergency and wasn't bleeding either. They just pretended to be Elves for slightly less time than they wanted. Nobody was "abused". {scrubbed}

The invitation wasn't to come over to talk and eat snacks, it was the play a game. If I get invited to an event, I expect it won't be swapped out for something the host has decided is equally agreeable.

Also, why are you poking fun at nerd sterotypes on a roleplay board, of all things? lol

[Synovia]

He did not abuse anyone. They were sitting at a table, talking to each other, and eating snacks. Darth Ultron made a big deal out of pointing out that "there was no emergency" and that "the child wasn't bleeding". Guess what: neither of the people at the table was in no state of emergency and wasn't bleeding either. They just pretended to be Elves for slightly less time than they wanted. Nobody was "abused". {scrubbed}


See, this is exactly the problem - you don't think the people at the table's time is valuable. Most of us don't have a ton of free time - we have jobs, we have other things to do - if you invite me over your house to play a game, and then I show up and you waste 5 hours of my time, I'm going to be rightfully pissed.

The word "abuse" doesn't just mean hitting people.

[Galen]

The invitation wasn't to come over to talk and eat snacks, it was the play a game. If I get invited to an event, I expect it won't be swapped out for something the host has decided is equally agreeable.Yes, I get the expectations. I get it that the expectations were not met. However, attaching an "abused" tag to it is, quite simply, delusional. Proportions were completely lost. Gotta love the double standard here. For the child, the standard is "he's not bleeding" and "it's not like it will scar him for life". So, basically, anything else than bleeding or lifetime scarring, is okay to apply to a child.

For the OP and those who side with him, of course, the standard they impose of themselves is far lower. It's all about getting more play time. If I got less play time than I wanted, I'm being "abused". Almost makes one wonder, who's the child here?

Once again, I can sympathize with the missed expectations. What I can't sympathize with is the way the OP, and some others, are dealing with said missed expectations. I think it reflects very poorly on them.

[Kesnit]

Here's the thing. For many children, particularly young children, "Where are the Frosted Flakes" is just as urgent as "I am bleeding from orifices."

The host's wife asked for the cereal, not the kid. And it was for her breakfast the next morning, not to feed the kid that instant.


But that doesn't mean you don't respond. Now, you might gently remind the kid that being unable to find the cereal is not an emergency, but "not pandering" is not the same thing as saying "Dang it, Timmy, Daddy's fighting the dragon! Now is not the time to bother Daddy!" There is a sliding scale when it comes to how much response is appropriate, and "none" is pretty rare.

The DM/host got up in the middle of game to get the cereal for his wife.


I'm not making a value judgment here. I'm serious. People on these boards have complained of bad DMs, of bad players, of bad gaming environments. And it always comes down to the same advice: If you can address the problem, do so, and if you can't and it's serious, walk away.

Which is a good option when the game is over for the night. "OK, I had a crappy time. I just won't come back." It's another issue if you are sitting at the time while the game is going on. Getting up and leaving then would probably be seen as rude.


Nobody said to ignore the children - this is a perfect time to teach children about priorities, and about respecting other people. Every moment with children is a teaching moment - I don't want to teach my children that it's okay to waste a whole bunch of my guests time because of something trivial.

^This.


It is not unreasonable to expect to do what one is invited over to do. It is not unreasonable to prioritize family over gaming. It is, however, rude to get people to invest their own time and effort into being present and available for an activity, and then choose to go perform the other activity you determine is higher priority.

Darth Ultron could have spent that evening in some other, more enjoyable fashion. He could have spared the effort put into being there, or have directed it towards something else. It was not polite to say, "I am going to run a game," and then not do so.


Imagine if I were to invite you over to my house for the Super Bowl. I get you all gathered together to watch the big game in my living room, and then my wife sits down with our child in her lap in front of the TV and proceeds to talk over the game. She insists, when she leaves the room, that I turn off the TV and come help her with various tasks every few minutes. By the time the night is over, the game's been mostly missed due to these repeated interruptions, disruptions, and family rituals.

You could have gone to somebody else's place to watch the game, or you could have stayed home and watched it, or you could even have just gone out to a movie with some other friends. Instead, you sat awkwardly in my living room around a darkened TV for most of the evening, or listening to my wife chatter while standing in front of the TV and blocking anybody from seeing or hearing it.

It is my wife's and my fault that your evening was unpleasant, and that we wasted your time.

If my child is that much more important to me than the game and my guests' ability to watch it, such that everyday things which could be done before or after the game take precedence over the limited-time-window event of the game, then I should not invite people over to watch the super bowl.

^Also this.


He did not abuse anyone. They were sitting at a table, talking to each other, and eating snacks.

The DM kept getting up in the middle of the game to take care of inconsequential things. Putting the kid to bed was just the last of a string of times the game was put on hold by the DM.

[Jayabalard]

How was she ''raising the child'', by just having the baby sit on her lap?Nurturing touch is one of the 8 principles of attachment parenting.


The guest thing is two ways though, right?Certainly.

But "wife talking to a husband who's gaming for things less than the house exploding" isn't the same thing as "being an insane jerk"

You have expectations that are totally unreasonable.


Once again, I can sympathize with the missed expectations. What I can't sympathize with is the way the OP, and some others, are dealing with said missed expectations. I think it reflects very poorly on them.Indeed. The host should have been more courteous to his guests, but this guest is responding to that discourtesy in a way that in no way is appropriate for the situation.


The DM kept getting up in the middle of the game to take care of inconsequential things. Putting the kid to bed was just the last of a string of times the game was put on hold by the DM.I still diagree with characterizing that behavior as "abuse".

[Galen]

{scrubbed}

[Synovia]

For the OP and those who side with him, of course, the standard they impose of themselves is far lower. It's all about getting more play time. If I got less play time than I wanted, I'm being "abused". Almost makes one wonder, who's the child here? .

It's not about playing time - it's not about D&D at all - it's about the host lacking consideration for their guests.

[Knaight]

Its kids. Complain all you want about people, personality, logistics. The moment a person insists their homage to whatever fantasy genre self-insert rates above my kid complaining their ear hurts...
Nobody is saying that you should just ignore your kid. Let alone that you should ignore them when they are literally in pain (particularly for ear infections; they make broken bones seem like a mild inconvenience). What people are saying is that if you know that you are going to be busy, it's a bit rude to host anyways. Plus, it's also not necessarily unreasonable to be annoyed that something came up - it should just be directed at the situation and not the person (though if the something that came up is an injury/illness and the first reaction isn't sympathy then people are getting a lot more unreasonable).


In the case of a couple with a very young child, I'm willing to cut some slack. It's a huge inconvenience even to try hosting under those circumstances so an honest effort is appreciated. There's a big difference between a malicious host and one who's doing the best they can under the circumstances. If you require a higher level of hospitality, then you are under no obligation to stay, just don't be a d*** about it.
Oh, absolutely. Like I said, the logistics involved likely required the one interruption, and my example of a malicious host was more about the general principle of being annoyed without it somehow inherently being a bad thing.


Yes, I get the expectations. I get it that the expectations were not met. However, attaching an "abused" tag to it is, quite simply, delusional. Proportions were completely lost. Gotta love the double standard here. For the child, the standard is "he's not bleeding" and "it's not like it will scar him for life". So, basically, anything else than bleeding or lifetime scarring, is okay to apply to a child.
You're assuming way more agreement among the people you deemed opponents than is in any way reasonable. You're also overlooking that the person doing the disrupting wasn't the kid but the partner, another adult. It's entirely reasonable to duck out every so often when the kid needs attention, and to preserve bed-time rituals and such. Children are going to display behavior that would be considered clingy in an adult, and that's okay - one can't expect independence from a 6 year old.

I'd agree that "abused" is a ludicrous term to apply here. It's also not accurate to say that it's what everyone who is saying it's not unreasonable to be annoyed is supporting.

[Galen]

{scrubbed}

[Synovia]

{scrubbed}


It's funny to me that the poster that immediately resorts to insulting and belittling other posters doesn't think it's a problem to invite a whole bunch of people over to your house and then waste their time.

It's also funny that said poster's argument for why this is okay basically boils down to "stop being such a whiner"

[Segev]

Again, the fault isn't for being attentive to his wife, nor for caring for and spending time with his kids. The fault is in rudely treating his guests' time with such disregard as to offer them something in return for their time, and not deliver on it.

There's nothing wrong with family-before-game. The rudeness is in not having the decency to cancel the game and let the others spend that time on something else.

Honestly, if it was the first time, and a trial run? Fine, fair enough, tried and failed. Apologies are still in order for misjudging.

Again, it's not that he's a bad person for not putting the game before his family. It's that it is not the other players' responsibility to give up their time so he can have snippets of a game he apparently didn't really have time for while he prioritizes his family over it.

[Kid Jake]

Gotta love the double standard here. For the child, the standard is "he's not bleeding" and "it's not like it will scar him for life". So, basically, anything else than bleeding or lifetime scarring, is okay to apply to a child.

Pretty sure that Gritmonger was the one that got that started with this:


Do you really think for a second that any parent worth their salt wouldn't drop everything to do with a group the moment their child was hurt, in trouble, or needed them...

The moment a person insists their homage to whatever fantasy genre self-insert rates above my kid complaining their ear hurts...

People seem to just be rightly pointing out that neither of these apply to the situation in question.

[Galen]

It's funny to me that the poster that immediately resorts to insulting and belittling other posters doesn't think it's a problem to invite a whole bunch of people over to your house and then waste their time. It is a problem. However, you need to understand that the way DU has chosen to deal with this problem is far worse. No, the original host's behavior was far from being perfect. But DU's reaction is far worse. Extrapolating on the expression "it's not even the same ballpark", I'd say it's not even the same sport.

DU's reaction is so bad it basically dwarfs the original problem to the point of near-non-existence.

[Synovia]

It is a problem. However, you need to understand that the way DU has chosen to deal with this problem is far worse. No, the original host's behavior was far from being perfect. But DU's reaction is far worse. Extrapolating on the expression "it's not even the same ballpark", I'd say it's not even the same sport.

DU's reaction is so bad it basically dwarfs the original problem to the point of near-non-existence.

His feeling slighted, and saying so, is out of proportion?

I think you're still fighting all the strawmen you've created. I see nothing wrong with DU's reaction.

[themaque]

There is much we do not know about the situation DU brings to the table.

How was the game described to him? How much game time was wasted vs. felt was wasted? What about other players? Was it a game style that was supposed to be pretty light with friends just hanging out and gaming or a sit down serious game? Where the player and the GM on the same page of that information?

I think we can all agree that just ignoring guests are wrong. I think we can all agree that putting family over game night is commendable. These two ideas don't need to be mutually exclusive if everyone has the same expectations for a get together.

[Galen]

{scrubbed}

[Synovia]

This coming from the guy who brought the word "abuse" to the table... riiiight.

Again, abuse doesn't just mean hitting people. I'm not surprised that you're not aware of this.

[comicshorse]

Please post a dictionary definition of 'abuse' that fits this situation 'cause I'm not seeing one in mine

[Synovia]

verb (used with object), abused, abusing.
1.
to use wrongly or improperly; misuse:
to abuse one's authority.
2.
to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way:
to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.

[comicshorse]

verb (used with object), abused, abusing.
1.
to use wrongly or improperly; misuse:
to abuse one's authority.


Seriously ?


2.
to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way:
to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.

SERIOUSLY ?

This and 'insane jerk' really don't do your arguments any good

[Synovia]

Seriously ?

SERIOUSLY ?

Yeah, seriously. That's what the word means.

[Maglubiyet]

I posit that the real divide here is between those who have kids and those who don't.

If you don't have kids, you don't get it. Not to be critical, but you pretty much CAN'T get it. It's the nature of parenthood.

I don't care if you have 10 dogs, you've been babysitting once a week for 15 years, and your sister has 12 kids, you don't know until you're the one in the hot seat. Until you're 100% responsible for everything about another human being. You're sleep-deprived, hormonal or dealing with hormonal, nervous/stressed/excited/overjoyed/terrified 24/7, trying to juggle 1000 things at once.

No, it's not the hardest job in the world, but it's one of the ones that is most engaging and diverts most of your resources -- mental, physical, spiritual, financial. It completely changes your priorities. Some people handle it better than others. (Some people THINK they handle it better than others -- usually the working parent who isn't the primary caregiver).

People without kids are usually the first to criticize parenting skills. And pretty much the only response parents can give is laugh and say, "wait til it's you...you have NO idea".

I bet if the host couple who DU was talking about saw this thread they wouldn't even recognize themselves. They probably thought, "well, that went well, it's good to finally start having people over again".

[Segev]

"You don't have kids, so you can't understand," and, "How dare you critique somebody else's parenting techniques," are both fallacious, here.

While I do not doubt that it is hard-to-impossible to fully appreciate what it's like being a parent without being one, the very idea that the argument is that the parents should have neglected the child in any way is a straw man.

Nobody is suggesting that. (The worst that's been seriously suggested, as opposed to straw manned up, is "mom reads to the kid tonight instead of dad.")

What is being said is that, if the responsibilities of parenthood prevent running the game successfully, it is not polite to invite people over, which requires them to give up their own time and expend their own effort, for a game which ultimately does not successfully run due to an inability to prioritize the game sufficiently high to run it successfully.

If that is the case - and again, nobody is saying the family duties should be lower priority than gaming - then one should not be wasting one's friends' time by asking them to come over and game...and then failing to run a game.


There is no "parenting critique" here. No "failure to appreciate what it's like to be a parent." Please stop trying to harp on that point; it's a straw man at best.

[BootStrapTommy]

Anyway, it's not that complicated -- when you're a guest in someone else's home, when someone has given you the courtesy of hosting you, you play by their rules. Patently an American idea. Historically, hosting has been considered a great honor, with the guests' wellbeing being the priority over the host's. Being an ingracious guest is not cool, for sure. But being an ingracious host, however, was a grievious social faux pas.



I don't care if you have 10 dogs, you've been babysitting once a week for 15 years, and your sister has 12 kids, you don't know until you're the one in the hot seat. Until you're 100% responsible for everything about another human being. You're sleep-deprived, hormonal or dealing with hormonal, nervous/stressed/excited/overjoyed/terrified 24/7, trying to juggle 1000 things at once.
The vast majority of us can manage it without being disrespectful of the people around us, however. And it is never a good excuse, no matter what people like to think.

[Maglubiyet]

it is not polite to invite people over, which requires them to give up their own time and expend their own effort, for a game which ultimately does not successfully run due to an inability to prioritize the game sufficiently high to run it successfully.

I'm saying that the couple might not even recognize that that's what they did. Even assuming Darth's assessment is not an exagerration, they might have been so into the new patent mode that they thought they met everyone's expectations.

[BootStrapTommy]

I'm saying that the couple might not even recognize that that's what they did. Even assuming Darth's assessment is not an exagerration, they might have been so into the new patent mode that they thought they met everyone's expectations. Not sure if being obliviously inconsiderate makes their behavior any better...

[Maglubiyet]

Not sure if being obliviously inconsiderate makes their behavior any better...

Like I said, this is a divide between people who get where they're coming from and those who don't.

Hands up if you're a parent and you think what they did constitutes "abuse".

[Galen]

I think Maglubyet said it all. People with and without children are different species. Suddenly I feel like I've been an African savannah elephant, arguing with a fellow elephant over the internet, criticizing him for being unable to comprehend the intricacies of savannah-walking and grass-eating, and then I check his user profile and realize, OH MY GOD, HE'S NOT AN AFRICAN ELEPHANT, HE'S ACTUALLY A SIBERIAN TIGER. And of course I feel very embarrassed at this.

/thread

[cobaltstarfire]

Like I said, this is a divide between people who get where they're coming from and those who don't.

Hands up if you're a parent and you think what they did constitutes "abuse".

I'm not a parent, and I don't think what happened constitutes as abuse.

However, that said I'm not a parent, and even I know that a very young child or newborns in particular will suck your very soul out with the amount of time you need to devote to them. The husband should have never volunteered to host in the first place. Or at least warned the rest of the group what it would be like, and that it was a test run or whatever to see if it could be done.


The husband stopping to get something for the wife, or taking the time to put the child down for the night is reasonable to me. Although I'd probably ask him if some other time would be better for playing cause he seems awfully busy.

Now the wife sitting at the table and chattering away? Well if I was her husband I'd have asked her to give us some space. If I was a player...I have no idea what I'd do, but yeah I'd have found it annoying. But that has nothing to do with the child, and everything to do with the wife not knowing or not being considerate of game time.

[BootStrapTommy]

Like I said, this is a divide between people who get where they're coming from and those who don't.

Hands up if you're a parent and you think what they did constitutes "abuse".
I understand perfectly where they're coming from. But I still fault them for their inconsideration. Like I said, not knowing one is being a **** hardly makes it not so...

[goto124]

Did we cover why the wife (who wasn't interested in the game) had to constantly call her husband to help with the kid?

I guess that this happened all the time, day in day out, and eventually OP just... cracked.


But that has nothing to do with the child, and everything to do with the wife not knowing or not being considerate of game time.

Sounds like it.

[BootStrapTommy]

I suppose I hold myself to the standard that if I can't meet an obligation, I don't make it. And I'm not sure where that isn't a reasonable assumption to make of others. Barring unforseen circumstances, failing to meet reasonable obligations is a form of lying.

So if I make an obligation to others (DMing, hosting), while prioritizing something else (the wee munchkins), I would undoubtedly be inconsiderate to those I made an obligation to. Doesn't matter if my priorities are straight, pure, or just, my action is still breaking a promise I made. I'm better off not making the obligation in the first place if I'm not gunna take it seriously. I owe others at least that much.

[Kaun]

Going to throw my two cents in here.

I have a 1yo child and a wife with no interest in gaming. I also run a game at my house on the regular.

And i'm going to side with Darth Ultron in this one. While he may not have conveyed his point in the most empathetic manor i think his points are valid.

Firstly if you have just had a kid, i think giving gaming a rest for at least 6 months isn't a bad idea. I'm not saying it makes you a horrible person if you don't, everybody s situation is different. What i am saying is the first 6 months can be a bit hectic and your partner is probably tiered as hell and a little bit stressed, so if they do let you have a night off to game you should be thankful for that.

If the guy was wanting to run a game in his house with a new baby, he probably should of cleared it with his wife first. It's the polite thing to do more than anything. If the wife had an issue with the game going ahead she should have raised it then.

If she has ok'd the game then give them some space to play. I get that she might occasionally need help for things (Some times a #3 nappy needs more than two hands to tackle) and the players should be accepting of that. But if you ok a game and then spend all the time that the game is on trying to stop it from happening (inadvertently or otherwise) your being somewhat rude and selfish.

If he didn't clear the game session with her, or he tried and she said no and he held it anyway... Well that just dysfunctional relationship and its a hole other matter.

IF she ok'd it and then purposely interrupted the session. Shes being rude.

If she ok's it then interrupted the session inadvertently to the point where it wasn't worth showing up. Well i would tell the gm and and he should have a chat with her, she may not realize what shes doing.

In my life, my wife handles the kid and kid related stuff on session nights. I'm very thankful for that. I do help her out if its required and my players are very understanding of this (many of them have kids themselves.)



As to the original topic i have had both good and bad couples. I have had good couples that i would sometimes like to separate for games but can't. I have had houses with kids that are fine to play at and i have had the opposite. Honestly good and bad couples are like good and bad players in general. Each and every one is different.

Personally my least favorite couple are the ones with one keen player and a partner who is not really that interested, but comes to play for something to do/doesn't like being separated from partner.
I don't like having to many players at my table at a time, but i have lots of friends that play... Asd i hate... HATE!... wasting as spot at the table on somebody who doesn't want to be there.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread closed for review.

EDIT: Thread re-opened upon review. Guys, it is alright to discuss this, but please do so in a civil manner. Do not mock, insult, belittle, or attack other posters or their opinions, or else this thread will be closed permanently.

Remember the Forum Rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

[Amphetryon]

If he would have been honest and said ''do you want to come over and no play a RPG'', I would have not come at all. Oddly when he said ''Come over and lets play an RPG'' I thought that is what he meant we would be doing.
So, you're saying no RPG playing was accomplished that evening, at all? No Character sheets used, no dice (assuming it wasn't diceless) were rolled, no interactions with other Characters or NPCs took place, no combats were engaged in or avoided through in-Character actions and choices whatsoever?

If that's the case, yes, he should have said 'we're not playing tonight.' If not. . . .

[Faily]

I'm just going to go on the record and say that I don't have kids and will probably never have (due to choice because I have no maternal instincts whatsoever), but I have friends who do have kids and I am smart enough to understand how time-consuming a child can be. I will always cut slack for players with kids.

As for gaming with couples. Never had a problem. The closest we got was a fairly young couple we gamed with sometime ago who were a bit *too* affectionate in their kissing/making out infront of us, but after giving them a talk about it, it was never a problem again.

[ComaVision]

So, you're saying no RPG playing was accomplished that evening, at all? No Character sheets used, no dice (assuming it wasn't diceless) were rolled, no interactions with other Characters or NPCs took place, no combats were engaged in or avoided through in-Character actions and choices whatsoever?

If that's the case, yes, he should have said 'we're not playing tonight.' If not. . . .

DU said there was about 30 minutes of gameplay. There's not much point arguing with his hyperbole.

[Merellis]

This sounds more like a situation that you should talk to your DM about than anything really. If most of the game time is taken up by your DM running around to deal with what their significant other wants then you should tell them that and say that you'd like it if next time there's a lot more time to game and maybe their significant other doesn't need them every five minutes. At this point it's up to you to talk to the DM and then up to them to decide how to go forwards, so long as you're voicing your opinion and concerns with respect and a bit of tact.

But the kid stuff and bedtime? Sorry, but that's something you might be stuck with anyway. Some gamers are single parents, some have way different schedules than the other, or have a set schedule of who handles bedtime on what day. Some couples will cover for the other one in social encounters while others will expect each other to hold up their end of the responsibility if they're both at home, both options are perfectly fine for families.

My current group has a couple in it with one of them being the DM, also has a player with a newborn, a player who's getting a new business started and recently married, and a player who deals with a constant health condition. I have a six year old myself who needs some extra attention, and sometimes one of us needs to run off to deal with something in the middle of the session.

We're very understanding if things come up that put the game on hold for a week or an hour, and very understanding if some weeks we can't meet up at all due to responsibilities. I handle my child's bedtime on the weekends, which is generally three hours into game time, I warned them about that before even joining the game and one of them has their newborn sitting with them while we chatter on skype and play through the session.

We've had no real issues beyond this one hilarious string of weeks where everyone had a different obligation come up on game night. Which was sort of hilarious but couldn't be helped due to a lot of things happening around that time of year.

Life gets busy, life gets complicated and filled with responsibilities. So long as the people handling the group are respectful and upfront about things happening in life I don't see why there would be an issue with couples or parents within gaming groups.

[Knaight]

I posit that the real divide here is between those who have kids and those who don't.

If you don't have kids, you don't get it. Not to be critical, but you pretty much CAN'T get it. It's the nature of parenthood.

I get that it's comforting to consider people without kids some sort of inferior subspecies that don't actually matter, and that because of that any criticism from someone without kids to someone who has them is an instance of those uppity childless people getting ideas above their station. However, given that there is a parent in this thread who doesn't think that it's unreasonable to expect a plan to either be carried through or canceled in advance barring something significant coming up; I'm seeing a slightly different divide. Maybe it's between those who consider the childless an inferior subspecies who needs to know their place, and those who don't.

[Lord Torath]

"You don't have kids, so you can't understand," and, "How dare you critique somebody else's parenting techniques," are both fallacious, here.

While I do not doubt that it is hard-to-impossible to fully appreciate what it's like being a parent without being one, the very idea that the argument is that the parents should have neglected the child in any way is a straw man.

Nobody is suggesting that. (The worst that's been seriously suggested, as opposed to straw manned up, is "mom reads to the kid tonight instead of dad.")

What is being said is that, if the responsibilities of parenthood prevent running the game successfully, it is not polite to invite people over, which requires them to give up their own time and expend their own effort, for a game which ultimately does not successfully run due to an inability to prioritize the game sufficiently high to run it successfully.

If that is the case - and again, nobody is saying the family duties should be lower priority than gaming - then one should not be wasting one's friends' time by asking them to come over and game...and then failing to run a game.


There is no "parenting critique" here. No "failure to appreciate what it's like to be a parent." Please stop trying to harp on that point; it's a straw man at best.I'm married with four kids, and I find Segev's remarks to be completely reasonable (as usual).


Like I said, this is a divide between people who get where they're coming from and those who don't.

Hands up if you're a parent and you think what they did constitutes "abuse".Wait, who are we saying is being abused here? The kid? Or the other players? In Darth Ultron's case, I would says the players' time is being wasted, or "abused." Probably the DM's time, too. Criminal abuse? Certainly not. But according to the definition quoted, the guests' time is being misused.

Taking 20-30 minutes to put your child to bed is completely fine, but should probably be mentioned at the time the invitation is issued. (Hey guys, at seven o'clock I'm going to need to take 20 minutes to put Lee to bed. Feel free to order pizza or play on your phones during that time).


Going to throw my two cents in here.

I have a 1yo child and a wife with no interest in gaming. I also run a game at my house on the regular.

And I'm going to side with Darth Ultron in this one. While he may not have conveyed his point in the most empathetic manor i think his points are valid.

Firstly if you have just had a kid, i think giving gaming a rest for at least 6 months isn't a bad idea. I'm not saying it makes you a horrible person if you don't, everybody s situation is different. What i am saying is the first 6 months can be a bit hectic and your partner is probably tiered as hell and a little bit stressed, so if they do let you have a night off to game you should be thankful for that.

If the guy was wanting to run a game in his house with a new baby, he probably should of cleared it with his wife first. It's the polite thing to do more than anything. If the wife had an issue with the game going ahead she should have raised it then.

If she has ok'd the game then give them some space to play. I get that she might occasionally need help for things (Some times a #3 nappy needs more than two hands to tackle) and the players should be accepting of that. But if you ok a game and then spend all the time that the game is on trying to stop it from happening (inadvertently or otherwise) your being somewhat rude and selfish.

If he didn't clear the game session with her, or he tried and she said no and he held it anyway... Well that just dysfunctional relationship and its a hole other matter.

IF she ok'd it and then purposely interrupted the session. Shes being rude.

If she ok's it then interrupted the session inadvertently to the point where it wasn't worth showing up. Well i would tell the gm and and he should have a chat with her, she may not realize what shes doing.

In my life, my wife handles the kid and kid related stuff on session nights. I'm very thankful for that. I do help her out if its required and my players are very understanding of this (many of them have kids themselves.)



As to the original topic i have had both good and bad couples. I have had good couples that i would sometimes like to separate for games but can't. I have had houses with kids that are fine to play at and i have had the opposite. Honestly good and bad couples are like good and bad players in general. Each and every one is different.

Personally my least favorite couple are the ones with one keen player and a partner who is not really that interested, but comes to play for something to do/doesn't like being separated from partner.
I don't like having too many players at my table at a time, but i have lots of friends that play... And i hate... HATE!... wasting as spot at the table on somebody who doesn't want to be there.I can certainly agree with all of this. When I go out to play (or if I'm staying home and playing over Skype/Roll20) my wife knows not to bother me unless it's an emergency. Similarly, on her nights out (even if she's just hiding in the bedroom writing), I handle everything I can, and only call her for emergencies. For anything else, I can write a note for a reminder and talk to her about it later.

I've played with several married players, and at a married couple's home. The wife was uninterested, but was very friendly and would chat with us for the first half-hour of the session, which was generally spent getting set up and eating dinner anyway. Once we actually started playing, she'd make herself scarce and let us play.

Emergencies come up occasionally, but they are few and far between (as emergencies should be). But if it's something that can wait, or can be handled by the non-playing spouse, that's who should handle it.

[1337 b4k4]

And i'm going to side with Darth Ultron in this one. While he may not have conveyed his point in the most empathetic manor i think his points are valid.

At the same time, I have to assume that DU was aware this couple had a newborn, and still chose to attend the gaming session. So we have a handful of options here:

1) They hadn't done this sort of thing before even while gaming with the newborn and this was a one off bad night, a little bit of leeway is in order.
2) The have done this before, and DU attended the game anyway, knowing what was likely to happen. It can annoy you, but you can hardly say people are wasting your time when voluntarily allow them to "waste" it
3) This was literally the first time the DM had run a game after the newborn and they're trying to figure it out, again a little bit of leeway is in order, and they wouldn't yet have the experience of it to know they probably need to take a break for a few months
4) This was the first time DU had played with this GM, and DU's angry judgments (they're lying about taking turns putting the kid to bed? Seriously?) are uncalled for without further supporting evidence.

Ultimately, as people grow up and get older, real life has a way of intruding on magic elf games. If you want to keep playing, you either roll with the punches and accept that sometimes you'll only get 30 minutes of game time in on an otherwise multi hour block of time, you live with vastly reduced play time as you try to coordinate multiple people into getting large simultaneous blocks of time or you limit your play to only people who can afford to set their entire life on hold for 4-6 hours in a shot. And sometimes, yes you have to have discussions on maybe doing better planning, but that's not the same as being "abused" because one time out of many you only got 30 minutes of "real" gaming in.

As to the original topic, I've gamed with couples (dating, married and some with kids) almost as long as I've been gaming. It's rarely a problem. Yes occasionally you have one off issues, but I don't recall ever having an ongoing problem that wasn't resolved with a simple "hey, let's talk about this". As an example one couple in my current group, both were players, one a part time GM, and they had kids. While the wife enjoyed playing in general, dealing with the kids and the fact that she wasn't hugely keen on the amount of planning that needed to go into a 4e turn meant that the games ran slowly and the wife was losing interest. We had a quick discussion about what would work better, settled on a new system that required less constant attention from the two of them and things picked right back up. Like most things in gaming, communication is the key.

Edit
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I get that it's comforting to consider people without kids some sort of inferior subspecies that don't actually matter, and that because of that any criticism from someone without kids to someone who has them is an instance of those uppity childless people getting ideas above their station. However, given that there is a parent in this thread who doesn't think that it's unreasonable to expect a plan to either be carried through or canceled in advance barring something significant coming up; I'm seeing a slightly different divide. Maybe it's between those who consider the childless an inferior subspecies who needs to know their place, and those who don't.

I think this is unfair, not the least because you're putting words into other people's mouths. But beyond that, I actually think the divide is between people for whom gaming is a social endeavor and gaming is an end unto itself. For a lot of people, pre-kids and pre-real life getting messy, gaming itself is the goal and running the specific scenario or campaign on hand is the subgoal. And there's nothing wrong with that, when you have that sort of time and can manage it, you can get some absolutely rocking game sessions going. But as I've gotten older, I've noticed that at a certain point, gaming becomes about getting together. It's the geek replacement for the friday night poker game. Gaming is the excuse, and the reason to block any time out of your schedule at all, but the real goal is to get together to enjoy some company and hang out. If gaming gets done, and it's the planned scenario to boot, so much the better but it's less mission critical.

The problem comes in when you've got both sets of gamers playing at the same table, an usually because part of the group is transitioning to Type II gaming while the other part remains in Type I. It's why often you'll find gaming groups (and social groups in general) split along the single / dating and married / kids line. If Type I and Type II gamers want to continue to play together, there has to be some understanding on both sides. My approach is that whoever is DMing and hosting sets the tone. If a Type II gamer is hosting, then I expect a more relaxed and laid back and I go in expecting that maybe we won't even play tonight. OTOH, when a Type I gamer is hosting, I do my level best to ensure that all my obligations for the time period are blocked out and any interruptions are scheduled and known well in advance.

It's not that parents need to stop gaming or always pawn their kids off on someone else to game, and it's not that players without kids or SO's are somehow lesser beings. It's that as life changes, so does your gaming. Just like growing up and getting a job means that you can't pull 36 hour gaming sessions like you used to, getting married and having kids means you can't always block perfect chunks of time out anymore either. Groups that want to play together have to manage everyone's schedule, not just the players with the most time.

[Knaight]

IWait, who are we saying is being abused here? The kid? Or the other players? In Darth Ultron's case, I would says the players' time is being wasted, or "abused." Probably the DM's time, too. Criminal abuse? Certainly not. But according to the definition quoted, the guests' time is being misused.

Abused is still a really strong word here - it's not something I'd bring out lightly, and this falls far, far short of it. I'm not even sure if the person in question could abuse the group if they tried, it generally takes some kind of social power to make that happen, and while said social power can be manufactured (e.g. through a gradual transition into emotional abuse through the systematic destruction of someone's friend network, self esteem, etc.), even doing that is pretty vanishingly unlikely in the context of a gaming group. I've had friends who've actually been abused, from the sort of emotional parental abuse where a phone-call induces a panic and crying attack in literally two seconds, to a combination of physical and emotional abuse that leaves permanent brain damage and drove someone to alcoholism as the only escape mechanism. Rude hosting isn't even remotely comparable here.

[huttj509]

Abused is still a really strong word here - it's not something I'd bring out lightly, and this falls far, far short of it. I'm not even sure if the person in question could abuse the group if they tried, it generally takes some kind of social power to make that happen, and while said social power can be manufactured (e.g. through a gradual transition into emotional abuse through the systematic destruction of someone's friend network, self esteem, etc.), even doing that is pretty vanishingly unlikely in the context of a gaming group. I've had friends who've actually been abused, from the sort of emotional parental abuse where a phone-call induces a panic and crying attack in literally two seconds, to a combination of physical and emotional abuse that leaves permanent brain damage and drove someone to alcoholism as the only escape mechanism. Rude hosting isn't even remotely comparable here.

Part of the problem is that the word has multiple meanings of varying seriousness.

If I'm meeting a friend for something, and I know I'll be a half hour late, but whatever, he'll wait, so I don't message him, it would be an abuse of his time. It could be an abuse of our friendship. It is NOT abusing him, or an abusive friendship.

I think the former was intended, but (especially since children/relationships were involved) the latter is what came across as stated.

[Lord Torath]

Abused is still a really strong word here - it's not something I'd bring out lightly, and this falls far, far short of it. I'm not even sure if the person in question could abuse the group if they tried, it generally takes some kind of social power to make that happen, and while said social power can be manufactured (e.g. through a gradual transition into emotional abuse through the systematic destruction of someone's friend network, self esteem, etc.), even doing that is pretty vanishingly unlikely in the context of a gaming group. I've had friends who've actually been abused, from the sort of emotional parental abuse where a phone-call induces a panic and crying attack in literally two seconds, to a combination of physical and emotional abuse that leaves permanent brain damage and drove someone to alcoholism as the only escape mechanism. Rude hosting isn't even remotely comparable here.I think there are at least two levels of abuse. One is the serious, alert-the-authorities version (verbal, social, physical, mental, etc). That is not the type that is occurring here. The other is the low-level annoying variety. Who hasn't known a munchkin-er who abuses a rules loophole? There are plenty of stories here on the board of a player abusing his DM's generosity or lack of familiarity with the rules, or a DM abusing his player's expectations for a fantastic plot twist. This is the type of abuse that could be said to be occurring here. Up-thread aways someone asked for a definition of "abuse" that fit with what was going on, and a definition was given. And it definitely falls under this lower-level of abuse. But let's not derail this thread any more with a semantics question.

I think I've only had one bad gaming experience as a result of a married couple. I was playing WH40k with a couple of brothers, one of whom was recently married (4-5 months). He got a phone call from his wife and hung up on her. She called back, and after answering, he said he'd better go, and left. I don't know what her initial reason for calling was, but I've got a pretty good idea of what her second call was about, and I can't say I really blame him for leaving. :smallamused:

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Rad Mage]

Part of the problem is that the word has multiple meanings of varying seriousness.

If I'm meeting a friend for something, and I know I'll be a half hour late, but whatever, he'll wait, so I don't message him, it would be an abuse of his time. It could be an abuse of our friendship. It is NOT abusing him, or an abusive friendship.

I think the former was intended, but (especially since children/relationships were involved) the latter is what came across as stated.

The problem with using the word "abuse" or "abused" in any discussion is not the definition of the word, but the cultural/societal weight of it. It is an emotionally loaded term that carries a lot of baggage with it and I personally don't consider it appropriate in polite discourse unless an actual case of serious abuse is being discussed.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Just because I could hit someone with a truck doesn't mean hit no longer applies to punching someone.

[Rad Mage]

Just because I could hit someone with a truck doesn't mean hit no longer applies to punching someone.

Indeed hit still applies in either scenario. But hit does not carry the same emotional weight that "abused" does.

My issue is the attempt to use a word that is socially and emotionally loaded while knowing it will generate a knee-jerk reaction for the sake of hyperbole when there are other ways of stating your case that are less hyperbolic.

An (admittedly excessive) example that arose in my ethics class. A soldier shoots an enemy combatant and they die as a result. You are more likely to say the enemy was "killed" by the soldier rather than "murdered" despite the fact that they, in essence, mean the same thing. But because "murdered" is a loaded term, implying excessive violence that is absent from the dictionary definition, it is less appropriate.

[Telonius]

I'd already been gaming for a few years when I met my (then-girlfriend, now-wife). Back then, she had absolutely no d20 gaming experience. (She'd worked her way up to Klingon Empress in an old Prodigy gaming forum, but that's a whole other story). There was a very unfortunate first impression of D&D; she happened to sit in on the longest marathon session I've ever experienced, when we were fighting the BBEG of Shackled City, and fell asleep about 3/4 of the way through. I always invited her to take part in any of our adventures, but she never really got into the idea. She was totally okay with me having my gaming time away from her.

Fast forward to six years ago. We were married, and my daughter was just about to be born. Personally I felt there was absolutely no way I could help take care of the kid, continue as DM, and get enough sleep to be a functional human being. Not to mention the fact that you're really not supposed to have all that many people over, when there's a newborn in the house. So: D&D hiatus for 8 months or so, starting a month before my daughter's birthday. I wrapped up the campaign pretty soon after that, and took a break from gaming for awhile.

When my daughter was about 3 or so, I wanted to get back into gaming. This time, my wife actually wanted to join! It wasn't practical for us to get a sitter, so L. (my daughter) sat in on the sessions and watched all the people roll the funny dice. My wife let her roll hers, which always seemed to result in higher numbers. L loved all the minis. When she got bored, she had a play area right beside the table. We switched off putting her to bed at 8:30, at first. No problem when I went, since it gave the players a chance to plot against me. (Seriously, anyone who considers "DM leaves the table for a while" to be a waste of their time, isn't being nearly sneaky enough).

Now that she's almost six, she's taking a much more active part in the game. She stays up for the whole session - or at least most of it. That's what the couch is for. She's discovered Legos, which are great for walls, trees, rocks, and other obstacles. (If anything, we've had to tone her enthusiasm down a little bit when she made a giant restaurant for when the next time they players reached an inn; they were in the middle of the wasteland at the time). When we had an undersea session, she got to be an NPC mermaid. Didn't quite pan out, since she got very shy when it was her turn to talk. The point is, she's getting a bunch of good memories of mommy, daddy, and a bunch of their crazy friends, getting together and having fun playing D&D - while helping out, providing a massive level of cuteness, and not disrupting the session much more than a round of Monty Python quotations would.

Not every kid (and not every gaming group) is going to be able to pull that off, but I think my experience has been pretty close to ideal.

[Rad Mage]

I'd already been gaming for a few years when I met my (then-girlfriend, now-wife). Back then, she had absolutely no d20 gaming experience. (She'd worked her way up to Klingon Empress in an old Prodigy gaming forum, but that's a whole other story). There was a very unfortunate first impression of D&D; she happened to sit in on the longest marathon session I've ever experienced, when we were fighting the BBEG of Shackled City, and fell asleep about 3/4 of the way through. I always invited her to take part in any of our adventures, but she never really got into the idea. She was totally okay with me having my gaming time away from her.

Fast forward to six years ago. We were married, and my daughter was just about to be born. Personally I felt there was absolutely no way I could help take care of the kid, continue as DM, and get enough sleep to be a functional human being. Not to mention the fact that you're really not supposed to have all that many people over, when there's a newborn in the house. So: D&D hiatus for 8 months or so, starting a month before my daughter's birthday. I wrapped up the campaign pretty soon after that, and took a break from gaming for awhile.

When my daughter was about 3 or so, I wanted to get back into gaming. This time, my wife actually wanted to join! It wasn't practical for us to get a sitter, so L. (my daughter) sat in on the sessions and watched all the people roll the funny dice. My wife let her roll hers, which always seemed to result in higher numbers. L loved all the minis. When she got bored, she had a play area right beside the table. We switched off putting her to bed at 8:30, at first. No problem when I went, since it gave the players a chance to plot against me. (Seriously, anyone who considers "DM leaves the table for a while" to be a waste of their time, isn't being nearly sneaky enough).

Now that she's almost six, she's taking a much more active part in the game. She stays up for the whole session - or at least most of it. That's what the couch is for. She's discovered Legos, which are great for walls, trees, rocks, and other obstacles. (If anything, we've had to tone her enthusiasm down a little bit when she made a giant restaurant for when the next time they players reached an inn; they were in the middle of the wasteland at the time). When we had an undersea session, she got to be an NPC mermaid. Didn't quite pan out, since she got very shy when it was her turn to talk. The point is, she's getting a bunch of good memories of mommy, daddy, and a bunch of their crazy friends, getting together and having fun playing D&D - while helping out, providing a massive level of cuteness, and not disrupting the session much more than a round of Monty Python quotations would.

Not every kid (and not every gaming group) is going to be able to pull that off, but I think my experience has been pretty close to ideal.

Sounds like your daughter is well on her way to becoming one of the most awesome people on the planet.

[Jay R]

You should expand that. It's just as bad with boyfriends/girlfriends.

My experience is that it is much, much worse with girlfriends than with wives.

In any event, if the DM is unfair in favor of one player, then that is merely a fact of the game to be exploited. My plan in that situation is to find a way to support the girlfriend/wife in a way that good things for her turn out to be good for me as well.

A truly good gamer successfully exploits any aspect of the game.

[Amphetryon]

DU said there was about 30 minutes of gameplay. There's not much point arguing with his hyperbole.

If what I quoted were the only hyperbolic statement, I'd agree with you. I'm not sure that's been determined, yet.

[ArcanaFire]

I have a lot of perspective both with 'playing with your SO' and 'playing with other couples'.

I had a boyfriend that I tried to play with when we were both just getting into tabletop gaming. He was the absolute perfect storm for a disaster. He was sexist (wouldn't let me play a female barbarian because it 'wasn't realistic' but had no problem with a halfling of the same class), favored his friends at every turn (which Idk if it was because of the aforementioned sexism or him trying too hard not to favor me), had to use everything he found in every sourcebook immediately and when things went wrong, no matter what they were, I got blamed. I'm not sure how much was him being a bad DM, and how much was him being a bad SO.

My fiance now has been a far more pleasant person to game with. We actually met at a gaming session and play once a week. Now, we hotseat our games (everyone takes turns DMing so everyone gets to play), so there's also a lot of co op DMing. Our other party members don't mind. We often joke that two of the guys we play with are like an old married couple and more likely to favor each other than my SO and I are.

As far as gaming with other couples, the biggest problem I've had is the inevitable, 'they broke up, now neither player is coming back and the campaign died with their relationship' moment. Not a problem with married folks most of the time.

[nyjastul69]

The problem with using the word "abuse" or "abused" in any discussion is not the definition of the word, but the cultural/societal weight of it. It is an emotionally loaded term that carries a lot of baggage with it and I personally don't consider it appropriate in polite discourse unless an actual case of serious abuse is being discussed.

I do not find abuse to be an emotionally loaded term. I do not feel that it carries any cultural/societal weight. Because you find it a loaded term does not mean it needs to be so for others. There really shouldn't be a problem. The fact that you use the the term 'serious' abuse means that you agree that there other types. Not all abuse is serious.

Edit: I will admit that the said host did not seem to abuse said guest in this case. It seems to me to be a case neglect. The host did not neglect the guest, the host neglected his duties as a host.

[Rad Mage]

I do not find abuse to be an emotionally loaded term. I do not feel that it carries any cultural/societal weight. Because you find it a loaded term does not mean it needs to be so for others. There really shouldn't be a problem. The fact that you use the the term 'serious' abuse means that you agree that there other types. Not all abuse is serious.

Edit: I will admit that the said host did not seem to abuse said guest in this case. It seems to me to be a case neglect. The host did not neglect the guest, the host neglected his duties as a host.

My issue is not with the term itself, but the fact that it was used in a purely inflammatory manner. There are a myriad of other words or phrases that could have been used, but abuse was chosen because it was the one most likely to elicit an emotional knee-jerk response. My use of the term serious, though probably misleading, was to try and illustrate the difference between a genuine case of abuse and the hyperbolic manner in which was used earlier.

[Aedilred]

At the same time, I have to assume that DU was aware this couple had a newborn, and still chose to attend the gaming session. So we have a handful of options here:

1) They hadn't done this sort of thing before even while gaming with the newborn and this was a one off bad night, a little bit of leeway is in order.
2) The have done this before, and DU attended the game anyway, knowing what was likely to happen. It can annoy you, but you can hardly say people are wasting your time when voluntarily allow them to "waste" it
3) This was literally the first time the DM had run a game after the newborn and they're trying to figure it out, again a little bit of leeway is in order, and they wouldn't yet have the experience of it to know they probably need to take a break for a few months
4) This was the first time DU had played with this GM, and DU's angry judgments (they're lying about taking turns putting the kid to bed? Seriously?) are uncalled for without further supporting evidence.

The problem with this approach is that it puts the onus entirely on the player and ignores the DM's part in all of this. Sure, there are all sorts of circumstances of which we are not aware. But I don't think it is unreasonable to expect someone who invites you over for a given purpose to have their act together sufficiently that that purpose is accomplished or at least given a reasonable chance of being accomplished. In this instance it sounds like that was not the case.

Sure, maybe the DM screwed up, thought he had things in hand, and it turned out that it was more than he could handle. These things happen, baby or not. But that's still the DM's fault, not the player's, and he should have apologised when it turned out he was mistaken and given the guests the opportunity to leave rather than waste more of their time.

That's nothing to do with parenthood or anything like that. It's just courtesy.

Perhaps the player could have been more understanding and accommodating, could have cut the DM some slack, etc. But that doesn't change the overall shape of the situation: it was the DM's responsibility to ensure that the game would take place and if it didn't, that's on him.


Ultimately, as people grow up and get older, real life has a way of intruding on magic elf games. If you want to keep playing, you either roll with the punches and accept that sometimes you'll only get 30 minutes of game time in on an otherwise multi hour block of time, you live with vastly reduced play time as you try to coordinate multiple people into getting large simultaneous blocks of time or you limit your play to only people who can afford to set their entire life on hold for 4-6 hours in a shot. And sometimes, yes you have to have discussions on maybe doing better planning, but that's not the same as being "abused" because one time out of many you only got 30 minutes of "real" gaming in.
On the other hand, I think it is entirely unreasonable for people to be expected to set aside 4-6 hours of their time and get only 30 minutes of "productivity" ou of that. Parents are not the only people with time constraints or real-life concerns and the assumption that everyone else's time is secondary because real life takes priority understandably makes some people rather prickly, as seen in this thread.

Perhaps I have an old-fashioned view of hosting, as suggested earlier in the conversation: as far as I'm concerned as a host it is my duty to ensure my guests are kept entertained and catered for. Yeah, sure, there is a social element to it and a lot of the time "gaming" is code for "hanging out" but even so that's something to be gauged according to each person's requirements and I would tailor invitations on the requisite basis. But inviting people over with the promise of entertainment then leaving them to their own devices for the majority of the time they're present while I do other things instead of providing that entertainment seems to me to be the height of rudeness.

[nyjastul69]

My issue is not with the term itself, but the fact that it was used in a purely inflammatory manner. There are a myriad of other words or phrases that could have been used, but abuse was chosen because it was the one most likely to elicit an emotional knee-jerk response. My use of the term serious, though probably misleading, was to try and illustrate the difference between a genuine case of abuse and the hyperbolic manner in which was used earlier.

Meh, I disagree. You are not correct. There is no correct here. I'm dropping my involvement because arguing through the internet is a wasted endeavor.

[Luminestra]

My gaming group is me, my wife and four other friends. It's been that way for years now. Me and my wife also have a kid, It's not really an issue with the group. They are all pretty understanding people and are all aware my kid might cause a slight hiccup in the session. I do try very hard to keep those to a minimum though.

No one in my group plays favorites. So thats good. (its usually me or my wife DMing)
I have never played with other married people so I don't have much to comment there.
When one of my players wants to bring someone to the game, my only condition is that they come with a character and a basic understanding of the rules. I always offer to help with this, but it has to be done before the session.