Ivory Weeper class final draft, Thoughts?

[Naoki00_]

Hello again everyone, This time around the class I'm bring to the table is a bit more finished than when I tend to post them, but I'm still not sure if it's completely ready to let my players use as they wish. I've playtested it a bit and it's performed at about 50-60% success rate which I'm happy with, but I'd like to get some thoughts on whether or not some abilities need tuning or to be more clarifying still. So without further rambling heres the class-

Ivory Weeper Base Class (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U8LadEd_gZV2uMMIj-7XLvV49RTIYwogKKf7n60D5sw/pub)


Potential final ability draft, pending balance. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15GQL2SjcLhzG1gUWFUTY8M2MH2OZKf1JqukJBq60nSU/pub)

Edit-

Specified that the Mask is not a true physical item.

Added Spells Known list


Changed Ghostly Chill to:

Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an Ivory Weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a target within 60ft by making a ranged touch attack, appearing as though they hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability deals 1d6 damage, half of which is cold damage and half of which is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by resistance or immunity. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect targets on the Ethereal plane and incorporeal opponents without any miss chance, however this doesn’t prevent miss chance from effects such as Blur from hindering its ability to hit.

Removed Spiritual sense from class abilities, made into a Lesser Trait.

Specified that it's only naturally forming fog that the mask can see through.

Specified that Attribute bonus enhancing traits replace each other and do not stack. Also removed option to gain larger bonus to a single score to at least see if it still works as intended, which really it should work fine anyway. Should they perhaps become moral bonuses to prevent some stacking with buffs?


Devouring/Cleansing chill changed to:

Cleansing Chill(Ex): At 6th level, the Ivory Weeper's ghostly chill can drain the power from the undead. While wearing her mask and dealing damage to an undead target the undead must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ class level + wisdom mod) or suffer 1d4 charisma damage.
(this hopefully helps make them more obviously anti undead primarily)


Made Graveyard Chill's "10ft burst" property into a Moderate trait.

Limited Ghostly Wail to only usable while masked, made it 1d4 rounds till another use as a breath weapon norm.


Stated that the crowd in "Become the Crowd" must be no more than 10ft apart from each other, will see if this need to become 5ft.


Graveyard Chill changed to:

Graveyard Chill(Ex): Reaching 14th level her Ghostly Chill increases again in power. Damage from your Ghostly Chill becomes entirely made of spiritual damage instead of being half cold damage.


Deathly Palor's immunities changed to: She gains immunity to energy draining attacks from undead, and soul-trapping

Added Role and Alignment on the class, changed the description a bit but not really happy with it, will probably change it again when I have better idea of what to put down for the general stuff.

Got an english major friend to proof read and assist in grammatical errors

Ghostly Chill damage reduced, damage listed on class chart.

Mask Traits wording changed to be closer to Rogue talent/advanced talent formula.

Maks trait ability overhaul. Nearly all abilities changed drastically, balancing is likely needed for some of them and playtesting pending.

Ghostly Wail moved to become a Moderate Mask Trait.

Haunting Fog moved down to become 5th level.

Cone of Cold moved to a 4th level spell, added Command Undead as a 2nd level spell.

[Debihuman]

Interesting, but you change tense and have problems with singular subject and plural objects, which make it hard to follow. I'd recommend losing some of the flowery language to add some substance to the opening paragraph. It's pretty but doesn't actually outline the purpose of the Order. This class is excessively overpowered at first level. Auto hitting Incorporeal AND ethereal creatures?

I would not allow this class in ANY campaign. If this were a prestige class, it would probably work better. Since this is some kind of religious order, why aren't there obligations to the order that have to be met? At least that would offset some of the power creep in this.

You aren't clear whether the ivory weeper can see through magical/supernatural mist at first level. If so, this is far too powerful. Perhaps at higher levels that ability could be gained. Gaining that AND the ability to see Undead as if constant deathwatch AND detect Undead is probably overpowered.

You mention lost souls a few times but never define the term until Face of Many. How does the ivory weeper know if the soul is someone famous or not? Also using a lost soul to power the mask is probably an evil act (see lesser traits).

The spirit mask is created at first level. Can it be taken? Can she create another if one is taken or destroyed? What are the stats of the mask (hardness and hit points).

The spirit mask either gives her the Incorporeal subtype or it does not. The ability to partially interact with Incorporeal creatures makes no sense as she'd be slaughtered by a ghost with a weapon who would not need to manifest! This means she can only use her touch attack. Good luck with a ghost with a reach weapon.

I would recommend changing the first ability to allow her ONLY to detect Undead (at what range? and how often?) at first level and only allow her to see through natural mist or fog at a range of 10 feet (normally you can only see 5 feet in fog). Again, scaling this at higher levels makes more sense than dropping on a first level spellcasting character.

How many spells should an ivory weeper have at first level? Your chart says one but your text says she starts with two first level spells. See Spellcasting.

Considering all that is gained at first level, ghostly chill is unnecessary. This is just ridiculously overpowered with no miss chance, and gives the character far too many advantages compared to other classes. I would just ban that ability outright.

Lesser Traits are all wildly divergent and have no theme. Sure those are all great abilities to gain, but why exactly should an ivory weeper have them? Underwater breathing (okay water based maybe but wait this isn't limited to duration [2 hours per level as the spell] and number of times per day), I would not allow this. +2 on physical ability score at 3rd level also banned. Untyped bonus to all saves -- banned. Ability to grant ghost touch ability to any weapon -- NOPE not on a dare. Ugh. These are all disgustingly overpowered. None of these abilities should be permanent. At best, these abilities should be limited in duration and number of uses per day. For example, the ghost touch ability could last for one consecutive hour a day and be usable once a day at 3rd level, twice a day at 5th level, and three times a day at 7th level.

Creatures with true seeing would see through the Face of Many even though you don't state it.

As for Moderate traits, I think gaining 2 points to two abilities or 4 points to one ability is still overpowered.

Why should creatures immune to cold not be immune to Ghostly Chill? Creatures immune to cold should have to succeed on a Saving throw or take half damage since there is an IF in Devouring/Cleansing Chill. Also, this messes with Graveyard Chill since it would not be an improvement.

Become the Crowd, you don't say how close those 10 people have to be to the ivory weeper. What if one of them moves out of range? How do you determine a crowd?

Deathly Pallor is over powered. I'd limit this to soul trapping. I don't think giving out immunity to ability drain should be available until 20th level. Is there another base class that gives it sooner?

Finally, Ivory Transcendence should do more. Shouldn't she become an Undead herself?

Debby

[Naoki00_]

Interesting, but you change tense and have problems with singular subject and plural objects, which make it hard to follow. I'd recommend losing some of the flowery language to add some substance to the opening paragraph. It's pretty but doesn't actually outline the purpose of the Order. This class is excessively overpowered at first level. Auto hitting Incorporeal AND ethereal creatures?

I would not allow this class in ANY campaign. If this were a prestige class, it would probably work better. Since this is some kind of religious order, why aren't there obligations to the order that have to be met? At least that would offset some of the power creep in this.

You aren't clear whether the ivory weeper can see through magical/supernatural mist at first level. If so, this is far too powerful. Perhaps at higher levels that ability could be gained. Gaining that AND the ability to see Undead as if constant deathwatch AND detect Undead is probably overpowered.

You mention lost souls a few times but never define the term until Face of Many. How does the ivory weeper know if the soul is someone famous or not? Also using a lost soul to power the mask is probably an evil act (see lesser traits).

The spirit mask is created at first level. Can it be taken? Can she create another if one is taken or destroyed? What are the stats of the mask (hardness and hit points).

The spirit mask either gives her the Incorporeal subtype or it does not. The ability to partially interact with Incorporeal creatures makes no sense as she'd be slaughtered by a ghost with a weapon who would not need to manifest! This means she can only use her touch attack. Good luck with a ghost with a reach weapon.

I would recommend changing the first ability to allow her ONLY to detect Undead (at what range? and how often?) at first level and only allow her to see through natural mist or fog at a range of 10 feet (normally you can only see 5 feet in fog). Again, scaling this at higher levels makes more sense than dropping on a first level spellcasting character.

How many spells should an ivory weeper have at first level? Your chart says one but your text says she starts with two first level spells. See Spellcasting.

Considering all that is gained at first level, ghostly chill is unnecessary. This is just ridiculously overpowered with no miss chance, and gives the character far too many advantages compared to other classes. I would just ban that ability outright.

Lesser Traits are all wildly divergent and have no theme. Sure those are all great abilities to gain, but why exactly should an ivory weeper have them? Underwater breathing (okay water based maybe but wait this isn't limited to duration [2 hours per level as the spell] and number of times per day), I would not allow this. +2 on physical ability score at 3rd level also banned. Untyped bonus to all saves -- banned. Ability to grant ghost touch ability to any weapon -- NOPE not on a dare. Ugh. These are all disgustingly overpowered. None of these abilities should be permanent. At best, these abilities should be limited in duration and number of uses per day. For example, the ghost touch ability could last for one consecutive hour a day and be usable once a day at 3rd level, twice a day at 5th level, and three times a day at 7th level.

Creatures with true seeing would see through the Face of Many even though you don't state it.

As for Moderate traits, I think gaining 2 points to two abilities or 4 points to one ability is still overpowered.

Why should creatures immune to cold not be immune to Ghostly Chill? Creatures immune to cold should have to succeed on a Saving throw or take half damage since there is an IF in Devouring/Cleansing Chill. Also, this messes with Graveyard Chill since it would not be an improvement.

Become the Crowd, you don't say how close those 10 people have to be to the ivory weeper. What if one of them moves out of range? How do you determine a crowd?

Deathly Pallor is over powered. I'd limit this to soul trapping. I don't think giving out immunity to ability drain should be available until 20th level. Is there another base class that gives it sooner?

Finally, Ivory Transcendence should do more. Shouldn't she become an Undead herself?

Debby

Alright I'll reply to this in the points you have and thank you for your thoughts, I apologize ahead of time if I come off as a bit blunt or rude, typing isn't like talking and I'm intentionally being so.

I admit I tend to mess up my tense a lot when I leave and come back to work, so i'll have to just go through and rewrite some parts, probably didn't realize I was doing it so much. Now then though, how exactly is being able to hit that overpowered? you can hit them sure, but any creature of those types meeting you at 1st level is hardly going to care you you can hit it with a somewhat paltry amount of damage. The reason it hits them is because your throwing 'incorporeal' energy, and Magic Missile auto hits them too I believe.

Because it's as much an order as Paladins are, though due to their nature as having very mutable morals and ethics between person to person or sect to sect, I didn't feel a code of conduct quite fit, though I was considering stating an alignment of "any neutral" to portray at least somewhat of a unified feel. I also just don't see the point in making it a prestige class when they are severely irrelevant in Pathfinder because of it's reliance on 'class level' for abilities and gaining them, that and not really feeling like I wanted to try and confine it to 10 levels.

Truthfully I'm a bit up in the air on if they can see through that or not though as is I would rule no until it's tested. Also the fact that the mask is a 'rage' styled ability puts a very hard limit on how much you can use these sight abilities, and merely being able to say "I can see the enemy!" doesn't actually guarantee said enemy won't still just kill you, but i figured that if a Paladin can have Detect Evil (arguably much, much better than Detect Undead or Deathwatch) all day, having the lessers for a few rounds a day wouldn't be bad. The last ability is partly pure flavor, but it also allows them to interact with ghosts and other incorporeal creatures mostly as easily as regular individuals, which is part of their job.

Lost souls are just ambiant spirits in the world, they aren't doing anything, and the weeper just passively channels them into various effects and going into detail about everything about what could define a 'lost soul' would kinda be like trying to define what a soul is in general. In Pathfinder land it can almost just be up to anyone what souls do when they are waiting for a place or just aren't willing to pass on but don't have the kind of malevolence to become a ghost. Maybe they are just borrowing them from whatever afterlife the soul is currently in, if that fits better it would work just as well. As for being an evil act...if your not harming it, and your not actually using it for anything evil, why would it be?

Yes the mask is created at first level, it is merely a 'rage' effect and is purely cosmetic, it vanishes and reappears whenever you call it again. If a person did 'take' it from your face it would just pop right back because it's a part of you.

It does NOT make you incorporeal. As said thats mostly a flavor ability to interact with spirits or objects, it's not necessarily meant as a real combat ability, but something you can use the mask for in the event that you make peaceful contact/find an incorporeal object/for some reason need to suicide grapple a ghost at early levels if you wanted.

It's exactly the spell detect undead, and as stated by the term 'constant' it's always on. I can more properly specify it working just like a paladin's detect evil though. Honestly is that really that big of a deal? Mist and fog are the least of a characters worries about running into (especially nonmagic). I would think just natural sight range of seeing through it wouldn't be anything more than a minor bonus since you still need to actually fight what your seeing, and if it's natural than the creatures in said mist/fog don't necessarily need to make it to be effective. I think it's just a little limiting on something that's not a 'major' ability.

It says right there- "An Ivory Weeper's selection of spells is extremely limited. She begins play knowing two 1st-level spell of her choice. At each new level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the bard class’s spells known." you use the bard's spells known progression.

I...I honestly am not seeing how your finding 1d6 damage that doesn't usually miss overpowered. It's Eldritch Blast from the 3.5 warlock and that was hardly overpowered. It doesn't apply any score to damage, can't be used as a full attack, and only things that would work with a ray would work with it. It's a power meant to supplement their meager spells and primarily as the offensive tool when not using their mask.

Your seeming to forget that ALL of these have a very limited duration, you only have them with your mask on. All of these powers individually are weaker than spells, you get them gradually to customize your preferred play style and what enemies you mostly run into as a primary combatant and secondary caster. NONE of these are permanent, it says so right here- "Lesser Traits: At 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels the Ivory Weepers mask gains an ability of her choice from the list below that activates when the mask is donned. A trait cannot be taken more than once unless specifically stated."

I assumed that was a given, but I've added the line to say that yes, true sight sees through it.

These are temporary as already stated, and they are less than a barbarian of 1st level let alone 11th.

They aren't immune because 'it says so' really, but the flavor is that it's not actual 'cold' anymore but raw spiritual power, which is 'cold' damage for game terms but these are people trained to fight undead using their own powers, so cold damage needs to effect them. Actually thats my mistake on Graveyard it should be "deals full damage".

Should I state it more specifically? "While under the effects of her Face of the Many class ability she may enter a crowd of at least 10 people". I figured to enter a crowd you had to be close enough to actually touch the people or at least be close within them, as it's partly flavor based I'm not sure how you would word a specific distance everyone can be apart from each other before it stops being a 'crowd'.

I don't think such incredibly common forms of attack should be only gotten the immunity to at 20th which so few games reach, though I am considering reducing it to Soul-Trapping and Energy Drain only.

I'm not meaning to sound presumptuous, but you first say that having the mask bonuses as permanent things (which they aren't) is overpowered, but then having them be permanent at 20th isn't enough? Or did that bit about it becoming permanent not come through clear?

[Debihuman]

Alright I'll reply to this in the points you have and thank you for your thoughts, I apologize ahead of time if I come off as a bit blunt or rude, typing isn't like talking and I'm intentionally being so. Not a problem.


I admit I tend to mess up my tense a lot when I leave and come back to work, so i'll have to just go through and rewrite some parts, probably didn't realize I was doing it so much. I was a professional proofread so I tend to notice that stuff a lot


Now then though, how exactly is being able to hit that overpowered? you can hit them sure, but any creature of those types meeting you at 1st level is hardly going to care you you can hit it with a somewhat paltry amount of damage. The reason it hits them is because your throwing 'incorporeal' energy, and Magic Missile auto hits them too I believe. because it's a first level power amid a lot of other first level powers. All of which adds up to overpowered.

See here: it's not a buffet. You shouldn't a myriad of special things at first level unless they mesh. Look at the first level paladin: aura of good, detect evil and smite evil ONCE per day. That's it. Not all this.

This is what a 1st level ivory weeper gains:


Can see through any form of fog, mist, or similar obstruction
Can see the spirits of the dead (Constant Deathwatch and Detect Undead)
Can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. This doesn’t mean an object they’re holding can hit a ghost, but they could shake a ghosts hand or grapple it for example.


AND this unlimited ability so every round it can do this:

Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a target within medium range [define this please] by making a ranged touch attack, appearing as though they hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability deals 1d6 points of cold damage, this damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect targets on the Ethereal plane and Incorporeal opponents without any miss chance and deals half damage to creatures immune to cold instead of being negated.

AND this (edited it)

Spiritual Sense (Ex): Ivory weepers are adept at sensing the presence of those normally outside mortal bounds. At 1st level onward, an ivory weeper may use a move action to automatically learn if any invisible or incorporeal creatures are within 10 feet of her though she does not learn the creatures' location.

These are not generally first level abilities. Nobody should be throwing a ghost CR 7 at a 1st level party. Of course, this would explain WHY these abilities are overpowered and in that case, I cannot help you.


Because it's as much an order as Paladins are, though due to their nature as having very mutable morals and ethics between person to person or sect to sect, I didn't feel a code of conduct quite fit, though I was considering stating an alignment of "any neutral" to portray at least somewhat of a unified feel. I also just don't see the point in making it a prestige class when they are severely irrelevant in Pathfinder because of it's reliance on 'class level' for abilities and gaining them, that and not really feeling like I wanted to try and confine it to 10 levels.

Unfortunately, you have not defined the Order at all. I know almost nothing about them -- goals, hierarchy, etc. You probably should have created the Order first and then made the class as an expression of it. What exactly is the job of this class--"To banish wicked dead and living"?


Truthfully I'm a bit up in the air on if they can see through that or not though as is I would rule no until it's tested. Also the fact that the mask is a 'rage' styled ability puts a very hard limit on how much you can use these sight abilities, and merely being able to say "I can see the enemy!" doesn't actually guarantee said enemy won't still just kill you, but i figured that if a Paladin can have Detect Evil (arguably much, much better than Detect Undead or Deathwatch) all day, having the lessers for a few rounds a day wouldn't be bad. The last ability is partly pure flavor, but it also allows them to interact with ghosts and other incorporeal creatures mostly as easily as regular individuals, which is part of their job.

Detecting evil is a faint aura for appropriate level one paladin as the ability scales. Deathwatch is weaker but you added Detect Undead as well. So you made a two-fer and in a party with both a paladin and an ivory weeper it's double the abilities. I could almost buy it but for the other powers.

Also, donning a mask is when you activate the powers. You say nothing about when it deactivates or perhaps I just missed it. If these abilities only last 4 rounds plus Charisma modifier, then it's probably under-powered.


Lost souls are just ambient spirits in the world, they aren't doing anything, and the weeper just passively channels them into various effects and going into detail about everything about what could define a 'lost soul' would kinda be like trying to define what a soul is in general. Actually it's done in several places. Souls that are just laying around can be 1. laid to rest, 2. resurrected or 3. destroyed. See for example soul eater.


In Pathfinder land it can almost just be up to anyone what souls do when they are waiting for a place or just aren't willing to pass on but don't have the kind of malevolence to become a ghost. Maybe they are just borrowing them from whatever afterlife the soul is currently in, if that fits better it would work just as well. As for being an evil act...if your not harming it, and your not actually using it for anything evil, why would it be? First of all, ghosts don't have to be malevolent, they can be any alignment. You are still interfering with the soul's free will and that's why it is evil. The thing you do with souls are as follows: 1. lay them to rest (most of them) sending them to their correct afterlife. 2. you resurrect them (if good and with permission not all souls want to be resurrected) 3. destroy them if evil. Now, what kind of souls are the ivory weepers looking for to use? Can't be evil as they are supposed to be banishing them. That leaves only neutral and good souls to be used. This is WHY you needed to identify what the organization does or is supposed to do.


Yes the mask is created at first level, it is merely a 'rage' effect and is purely cosmetic, it vanishes and reappears whenever you call it again. If a person did 'take' it from your face it would just pop right back because it's a part of you. so it is not an item per se. You need to make that clearer.


It does NOT make you incorporeal. As said that's mostly a flavor ability to interact with spirits or objects, it's not necessarily meant as a real combat ability, but something you can use the mask for in the event that you make peaceful contact/find an incorporeal object/for some reason need to suicide grapple a ghost at early levels if you wanted. Don't give out abilities then act surprised when PCs use them. It wouldn't necessarily have to be peaceful contact.



It's exactly the spell detect undead, and as stated by the term 'constant' it's always on. I can more properly specify it working just like a paladin's detect evil though. At will then as a standard action.


Honestly is that really that big of a deal? Mist and fog are the least of a characters worries about running into (especially nonmagic). HAHAHA. You just gave a DM an excuse to use fog as an AS OFTEN as possible.



Fog
Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance).


I would think just natural sight range of seeing through it wouldn't be anything more than a minor bonus since you still need to actually fight what your seeing, and if it's natural than the creatures in said mist/fog don't necessarily need to make it to be effective. I think it's just a little limiting on something that's not a 'major' ability. See above.


It says right there- "An Ivory Weeper's selection of spells is extremely limited. She begins play knowing two 1st-level spell of her choice. At each new level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the bard class’s spells known." you use the bard's spells known progression. Bards don't get 2 first level spells so your chart is wrong. Your chart shows 1 spell at first level and it should be 2. You need to fix your chart.


I...I honestly am not seeing how your finding 1d6 damage that doesn't usually miss overpowered. It's Eldritch Blast from the 3.5 warlock and that was hardly overpowered. It doesn't apply any score to damage, can't be used as a full attack, and only things that would work with a ray would work with it. It's a power meant to supplement their meager spells and primarily as the offensive tool when not using their mask.

By itself it isn't. It is in conjunction with the other powers. And Eldritch Blast is limited in that you can't use metamagic with it. However, that is 3.5 not Pathfinder so I'm not sure it would balance right.


You're seeming to forget that ALL of these have a very limited duration, you only have them with your mask on. All of these powers individually are weaker than spells, you get them gradually to customize your preferred play style and what enemies you mostly run into as a primary combatant and secondary caster. NONE of these are permanent, it says so right here- "Lesser Traits: At 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels the Ivory Weepers mask gains an ability of her choice from the list below that activates when the mask is donned. A trait cannot be taken more than once unless specifically stated." Once you don your mask you NEVER state how long the duration is unless you actually mean that these effects only last for 4 rounds plus Charisma modifier. In which case they are probably too weak.


I assumed that was a given, but I've added the line to say that yes, true sight sees through it. sounds good


These are temporary as already stated, and they are less than a barbarian of 1st level let alone 11th.

They aren't immune because 'it says so' really, but the flavor is that it's not actual 'cold' anymore but raw spiritual power, which is 'cold' damage for game terms but these are people trained to fight undead using their own powers, so cold damage needs to effect them. Actually thats my mistake on Graveyard it should be "deals full damage". Now I'm confused.


Should I state it more specifically? "While under the effects of her Face of the Many class ability she may enter a crowd of at least 10 people". I figured to enter a crowd you had to be close enough to actually touch the people or at least be close within them, as it's partly flavor based I'm not sure how you would word a specific distance everyone can be apart from each other before it stops being a 'crowd'. You have to define it for the DMs. A crowd is probably 10 or more people no more than 5-feet away from each other.


I don't think such incredibly common forms of attack should be only gotten the immunity to at 20th which so few games reach, though I am considering reducing it to Soul-Trapping and Energy Drain only. Don't make the DM's choices harder. It's hard enough to find a challenging creature when the party gets ridiculous immunities to everything. Or you end up throwing CR ratings out the window and that's how TPK happens. It's just not good design.


I'm not meaning to sound presumptuous, but you first say that having the mask bonuses as permanent things (which they aren't) is overpowered, but then having them be permanent at 20th isn't enough? Or did that bit about it becoming permanent not come through clear?

It's not having them that's necessarily the problem as it is WHEN they get them. At 20th level +2 isn't so game-breaking as it is earlier.

Debby

[Cayzle]

Debihuman makes some excellent points. Here are a few more.

Look over the core rulebook. All classes have a section at the beginning on Role. That's definitely needed for people who are only coming to understand your vision by reading it (as opposed to those who play with you face to face). Also, in any death-related option, add a section on alignment. Per the core rulebook too.

You could use a good copy edit. For example, in the Weapons and Armor section, longsword is lowercase but all the others are capitalized. Short Sword should be two words. There's a close parenthesis at the end of the sentence that needs deletion. Sorry, as a journalist and editor, those things jump out ... but I won't harp on that stuff for the rest of your write-up! :-)

When you are referencing non-core rules, you might want to link to the source for the aid of those who do not have all the splat books memorized. For example, the Scythe (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/weapons.html#scythe) is from the Ultimate Combat book, so you might want to link to it. Like that there. Make it easy for players to use your rules.

That goes double for the spell list. Think how much easier it would be to use your rules if all those spells were linked back to their original source material Especially for players who play with their laptops/tablets at the gaming table.

I like your use of the generic female for pronouns.

Ivory Binding has rounds per day like a bard's performance. I suggest you follow the existing pattern more closely. At fist level, make it a standard action, then a move action at level 7, swift at 13. Give some powers (like the see through mists one, that's potent) at higher level, like bards get better proformances at higher levels.

In general, make a new rule like an existing rule. All those Lesser Trait powers should look and act like bard performance powers. And why so much choice? Some do not fit the theme. "breath underwater ... +2 on a single physical ability score ... +1 untyped bonus to all Saves" -- these are just power boosters that do not fit the theme. Throwing raw power boosters into a class is just inflation. And who will take the neato flavorful options (you only get three) when you can have +2 Con that stacks with a belt?

Same with those moderate and greater traits, which BTW are also way overpowered. +6 to a stat that is not an enhancement bonus? Even if it does come at 17th level, that is bogus.

Ghostly Chill is WAY too powerful if you can use it at will. Even 3+Chr times per day, that multiple dice of damage is powerful. And medium range? Huh.

TL;DR -- I love the flavor and the theme. I would strip out any powers not immediately linked to the class's mission. Cut way back on the power creep. But you got some great ideas here. Also, I'd love to see it as a PrC.

[Naoki00_]

because it's a first level power amid a lot of other first level powers. All of which adds up to overpowered.

See here: it's not a buffet. You shouldn't a myriad of special things at first level unless they mesh. Look at the first level paladin: aura of good, detect evil and smite evil ONCE per day. That's it. Not all this.

This is what a 1st level ivory weeper gains:


Can see through any form of fog, mist, or similar obstruction
Can see the spirits of the dead (Constant Deathwatch and Detect Undead)
Can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. This doesn’t mean an object they’re holding can hit a ghost, but they could shake a ghosts hand or grapple it for example.


AND this unlimited ability so every round it can do this:

Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a target within medium range [define this please] by making a ranged touch attack, appearing as though they hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability deals 1d6 points of cold damage, this damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect targets on the Ethereal plane and Incorporeal opponents without any miss chance and deals half damage to creatures immune to cold instead of being negated.

AND this (edited it)

Spiritual Sense (Ex): Ivory weepers are adept at sensing the presence of those normally outside mortal bounds. At 1st level onward, an ivory weeper may use a move action to automatically learn if any invisible or incorporeal creatures are within 10 feet of her though she does not learn the creatures' location.

These are not generally first level abilities. Nobody should be throwing a ghost CR 7 at a 1st level party. Of course, this would explain WHY these abilities are overpowered and in that case, I cannot help you.

Every single one of those things are tied to a strict per day limit, heck other than the Seeing undead stuff the other two are flavor abilities more than anything. I've NEVER seen natural fog as anything more than a mild annoyance that rapidly becomes irrelevant by 3rd level, if the ability doesn't puncture magical fog either than Obscuring Mist is just as effective as it ever was. Maybe I'm just not seeing how it's powerful at all, if you want to try and explain how just "I see through the fog and there's 2 guys in it" (for one member of the party only unless there's more than one Weeper) is as powerful an an Eidolon, or a Grease spell (or just being a Wizard), or a regular Barbarian rage.
You've bolded the "no miss chance" so I'm going assume this is what you think is overpowered. How in ANY way, does being able to just hit incorporeal or things on the Ethereal plane without missing (miss chance on anything else still works) for a paltry 1d6/2 levels broken? it's at will because it's VERY little damage (on average maybe 4 at a time), for a single standard action. If your relying on this to be your damage your going to be rapidly and decisively outpaced by any class with a bow/melee weapon/any extra attacks. It's supposed to be a way to not need to burn spells all day or to hang back if a fight is too dangerous to go into straight melee. Would it help to just make it a regular ranged attack and not touch, while I think that will make actually hitting with it a pain unless you pump dex out it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Spiritual Sense I originally tied into needing to have the mask on, but in practice it was a waste of an action since it's not actually as if you can tell something is there to even WANT to sense for it. It's primarily supposed to be for sensing ghosts and spirits that may or may not be hanging around or to 'soft scout' an invisible enemy in a fight. I can see this just being taken out though honestly as it had a bigger place originally than it does now.

Overall it's just a bunch of (supposed to be) weaker abilities to bring it up to being tolerable at 1st level, where your life is hard enough. I can see pulling the Deathwatch and Detect Undead abilities and maybe putting one of them at 5th level or somewhat, so long as it's gained at a level it.


Unfortunately, you have not defined the Order at all. I know almost nothing about them -- goals, hierarchy, etc. You probably should have created the Order first and then made the class as an expression of it. What exactly is the job of this class--"To banish wicked dead and living"?

I didn't go that far into the whole details of the order because I wanted them to be able to fit into any world, leaving it a bit more vague means a player/DM could have them be placed where they would like in their world. I can go into more detail about it but a lot of those things would be writing entire paragraphs just in the class description, so while I could probably redo the intro text some things like Hierarchy would be better left up to a separate bit of text since it could vary from DM to DM. Job wise thats the gist, they are a necromancer, who specializes in fighting undead using their own powers. Because they are necromancers, they are still quite good at killing living things though. They don't have to be good guys though that's the intention, you can use them as a more combat oriented necromancer focused on rogue/magus style combat instead of being just a wizard with necromancy school.


Actually it's done in several places. Souls that are just laying around can be 1. laid to rest, 2. resurrected or 3. destroyed. See for example soul eater.

Hmm, I'll look up the soul eater, never heard of it.


First of all, ghosts don't have to be malevolent, they can be any alignment. You are still interfering with the soul's free will and that's why it is evil. The thing you do with souls are as follows: 1. lay them to rest (most of them) sending them to their correct afterlife. 2. you resurrect them (if good and with permission not all souls want to be resurrected) 3. destroy them if evil. Now, what kind of souls are the ivory weepers looking for to use? Can't be evil as they are supposed to be banishing them. That leaves only neutral and good souls to be used. This is WHY you needed to identify what the organization does or is supposed to do.

Yes I am aware they can be of any alignment, but you aren't binding a 'Ghost'. Your binding lost souls, they aren't doing ANYTHING, if anything they would be true neutral. If your good your binding them to do good, if evil, binding them to do evil. You can also put as that a Good Weeper binds the souls that willingly fly to them when they call the power up, and if you don't want to just go with them being 'lost' I can just add a line about how they bind only souls that have willing joined the cause to help them out. It's not supposed to be a big moral quandary.


so it is not an item per se. You need to make that clearer.

Would it help to just say "The mask is a cosmetic effect to binding the spirits, an is not actually an item on your person" or something like that?


Don't give out abilities then act surprised when PCs use them. It wouldn't necessarily have to be peaceful contact.

I never said I'd be surprised if they did just that it's not the main purpose. If someone wants to grapple or punch a ghost I don't see why they can't live with the consequences if they are too low level for it.


At will then as a standard action.

Not originally it was constant so "puts mask on, that turns on too" though I just nerfed it to being at will spell-likes so they now consume actions while masked. I'd rather sight abilities didn't but it clears it up at least.


HAHAHA. You just gave a DM an excuse to use fog as an AS OFTEN as possible.



See above.

How? because ONE member of the party can see through regular natural fog?


Bards don't get 2 first level spells so your chart is wrong. Your chart shows 1 spell at first level and it should be 2. You need to fix your chart.

Lifted right from the bard (which is where I lifted my own words in the class)- "The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bard’s choice. At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells". These guys don't get 0 levels, so they just get the 2 first levels. The chart is exactly like the bards as well, because it's Spells per day, I don't have a spells known chart there and have the line- "as indicated on the bard class’s spells known." Admittedly this is just because at the time my computer would freak out when I would try to make a new table, and I believe I've fixed whatever weirdness it was doing so I can add another table to just clarify.



By itself it isn't. It is in conjunction with the other powers. And Eldritch Blast is limited in that you can't use metamagic with it. However, that is 3.5 not Pathfinder so I'm not sure it would balance right.

No you cannot apply any metamagic to Ghostly Chill because it is not a spell.


Once you don your mask you NEVER state how long the duration is unless you actually mean that these effects only last for 4 rounds plus Charisma modifier. In which case they are probably too weak.

As is again said in the Ivory Binding ability- " A Weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4+ charisma modifier, and each level after first they gain an additional 2 rounds. A Weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as another swift action.". I added the ending early line cause admittedly, I forgot it.


Now I'm confused.

I was trying to say that Undead are immune to cold. To fight necro with necro, you'd need to get by that, these guys figured out how. The idea is that the damage of throwing masses of soul energy would be 'cold' because it's necromantic so anything would normally treat it as such, but it's only 'cold' damage by association and thus still partly effects undead.


You have to define it for the DMs. A crowd is probably 10 or more people no more than 5-feet away from each other.

I can do that at least, but would it be better to have it be "no more than 5ft apart" or "no more than 10ft apart" is the question.


Don't make the DM's choices harder. It's hard enough to find a challenging creature when the party gets ridiculous immunities to everything. Or you end up throwing CR ratings out the window and that's how TPK happens. It's just not good design.

Getting immunity to things you've been specifically trained to fight at 15th level (arguably one of the "your a demi-god" points of the game) makes encounters hard to pick? These are hardly immune to everything...hell at 15th level I'd expect paladins to be immune to at least Energy Drain. Like I said though i could see removing Ability Damage/drain because other things than undead do use them.


It's not having them that's necessarily the problem as it is WHEN they get them. At 20th level +2 isn't so game-breaking as it is earlier.

Which +2 are you referring to exactly?

[Naoki00_]

Look over the core rulebook. All classes have a section at the beginning on Role. That's definitely needed for people who are only coming to understand your vision by reading it (as opposed to those who play with you face to face). Also, in any death-related option, add a section on alignment. Per the core rulebook too.

I have on some of the ones I've made and some I've just neglected to do so, I admit I tend to assume people get more than what I might be making clear in some things, so I'll at some point soon just put those in.


You could use a good copy edit. For example, in the Weapons and Armor section, longsword is lowercase but all the others are capitalized. Short Sword should be two words. There's a close parenthesis at the end of the sentence that needs deletion. Sorry, as a journalist and editor, those things jump out ... but I won't harp on that stuff for the rest of your write-up! :-)


considering I tend to write these early in the mornings I'm aware I make a lot of mistakes, I normally have a friend to proof read but he hasn't be free lately.


When you are referencing non-core rules, you might want to link to the source for the aid of those who do not have all the splat books memorized. For example, the Scythe (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/weapons.html#scythe) is from the Ultimate Combat book, so you might want to link to it. Like that there. Make it easy for players to use your rules.

That goes double for the spell list. Think how much easier it would be to use your rules if all those spells were linked back to their original source material Especially for players who play with their laptops/tablets at the gaming table.

Since pretty much all of my info (and players info) is from the PFSRD, I have no clue what is and isn't in any of the core rule books, since I don't actually own one. The spell list I do actually plan on making links to everything but I planned on doing that after the list itself is set in stone, speaking of how does it look?


I like your use of the generic female for pronouns.

I tried to copy this from the basic ways the classes are words so thank you.


Ivory Binding has rounds per day like a bard's performance. I suggest you follow the existing pattern more closely. At fist level, make it a standard action, then a move action at level 7, swift at 13. Give some powers (like the see through mists one, that's potent) at higher level, like bards get better proformances at higher levels.

In general, make a new rule like an existing rule. All those Lesser Trait powers should look and act like bard performance powers. And why so much choice? Some do not fit the theme. "breath underwater ... +2 on a single physical ability score ... +1 untyped bonus to all Saves" -- these are just power boosters that do not fit the theme. Throwing raw power boosters into a class is just inflation. And who will take the neato flavorful options (you only get three) when you can have +2 Con that stacks with a belt?

Same with those moderate and greater traits, which BTW are also way overpowered. +6 to a stat that is not an enhancement bonus? Even if it does come at 17th level, that is bogus.

I'm not sure what you mean 'like bardic performances' because those are so radically different in effects. I suppose though I can test it with the standard-move-swift thing, though at first as a standard action it makes it a bit less useful. As for why so much choice, why not? I never like things being decided for me, I like the ability to pick rogue talents, or Discoveries, or Magus Arcana. Personally I wish they had more abilities that were as good an option as the others to make even more potential build paths and options. I actually tried to pick ones that fit the theme in the abstract sense while enabling multiple ranges of combat effectiveness, the idea is that each of the abilities is tied with the spirits your binding to the mask (the breathing underwater one is more tied to their nature as water manipulators admittedly). I was going to go for more in depth abilities but because of it's nature as already having a great deal of options I thought more passive bonuses would be more in line. Because it's only one +2 con? it's nice and I'd probably pick it yeah but you get it once and thats just an extra 1hp per HD and +1 fort for several rounds. If your going to be in melee you'd pick that or Strength/Dex and then which ever others you'd want, same with ranged focus. It just never struck me as that big when there are much easier ways to get huge stat pluses. I will say I need to clarify something now that I reread the class, the stat bonuses REPLACE the former traits bonuses, they do not overlap.

For the Moderate and Major ones though I went for things that a lot of undead themselves at those levels are perfectly capable of. I was expecting the constant invisibility to be a problematic power not a simple "+3 mod" on one stat at 17th level. I expect people to be leveling cities at 17th and a barbarian's been getting 2 stats at +6 for six levels I didn't feel like it was a stretch.




Ghostly Chill is WAY too powerful if you can use it at will. Even 3+Chr times per day, that multiple dice of damage is powerful. And medium range? Huh.

I think as a very avid Warlock player from 3.5 the multiple die don't appear like anything fancy. It's a nice damage buffer that lets you not have to focus on archery feats to be range effective, but it's not outpacing an actual archer or melee. If it was limited to uses per day I feel it would be almost too restrictive...Blasting is already a weak option and Fireball ramps up way faster than this. Would it just help to add something like a Will Save for half damage? I feel like thats an enormous power drop but I'm willing to consider it.


TL;DR -- I love the flavor and the theme. I would strip out any powers not immediately linked to the class's mission. Cut way back on the power creep. But you got some great ideas here. Also, I'd love to see it as a PrC.

Well the classes mission is primarily hunting undead, it's just as capable dealing with anything else just like a regular class, if not letting it do stuff outside a narrow focus it would because a hyper-focused ranger type which would only be effective in select situations, or at least that's what comes to my mind. I'd love for PrC's to not suck in pathfinder honestly, but I didn't set out with this one as one in mind, though I could see it as one if it was very cut down, I don't think it would be effective though since what you'd probably go into it as (cleric/oracle) would just be better off not prestiging at all.

[Naoki00_]

Edit-

Specified that the Mask is not a true physical item.

Added Spells Known list


Changed Ghostly Chill to:

Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an Ivory Weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a target within 60ft by making a ranged touch attack, appearing as though they hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability deals 1d6 damage, half of which is cold damage and half of which is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by resistance or immunity. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect targets on the Ethereal plane and incorporeal opponents without any miss chance, however this doesn’t prevent miss chance from effects such as Blur from hindering its ability to hit.

Removed Spiritual sense from class abilities, made into a Lesser Trait.

Specified that it's only naturally forming fog that the mask can see through.

Specified that Attribute bonus enhancing traits replace each other and do not stack. Also removed option to gain larger bonus to a single score to at least see if it still works as intended, which really it should work fine anyway. Should they perhaps become moral bonuses to prevent some stacking with buffs?


Devouring/Cleansing chill changed to:

Cleansing Chill(Ex): At 6th level, the Ivory Weeper's ghostly chill can drain the power from the undead. While wearing her mask and dealing damage to an undead target the undead must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ class level + wisdom mod) or suffer 1d4 charisma damage.
(this hopefully helps make them more obviously anti undead primarily)


Made Graveyard Chill's "10ft burst" property into a Moderate trait.

Limited Ghostly Wail to only usable while masked, made it 1d4 rounds till another use as a breath weapon norm.


Stated that the crowd in "Become the Crowd" must be no more than 10ft apart from each other, will see if this need to become 5ft.


Graveyard Chill changed to:

Graveyard Chill(Ex): Reaching 14th level her Ghostly Chill increases again in power. Damage from your Ghostly Chill becomes entirely made of spiritual damage instead of being half cold damage.


Deathly Palor's immunities changed to: She gains immunity to energy draining attacks from undead, and soul-trapping

[JBPuffin]

This is one of the most unique base classes I've seen for 3.5/PF. Its niche is hand-carved by a DM who wants to see it used, and it certainly satisfies the need to both excel at something and not utterly fall flat at everything else. I like it - while I can't comment too much on mechanics, really, it seems solid. Good luck with continued tampering.

[Naoki00_]

Added Role and Alignment on the class, changed the description a bit but not really happy with it, will probably change it again when I have better idea of what to put down for the general stuff.

If the Traits being so passive aren't thematic though I do like many of them, perhaps these would be potential replacements.

Lesser trait ideas-

Fearsome Visage (Ex): Your mask is even more terrifying than usual. You gain an insight bonus on Intimidate checks equal to ½ your HD and once per round you may attempt an Intimidate check against an enemy within 30ft of you as a move action.

Terrifying Strike (Su): Whenever you successfully deal at least 10 damage with a melee weapon, the target must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + wis mod) or become shaken for 1d4 rounds.

Nightmare Step (Su): When you’re adjacent to a shaken target, you can teleport up to 20 ft. away into a square adjacent to another shaken target as a swift action once every 1d4 rounds.

Ice Mirror (Su): When you first don your mask in combat you can increase the time it takes into a full round action (or standard if you normally would don it as a move action, or move action if you normally don it as a swift action) to create an illusory double of yourself through icy mist at the same time. This double functions as a single Mirror Image (as the spell) and lasts for as long as you wear your mask, or until the illusory duplicate is destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can only use this ability 3 times per day, regardless of how many times you don your mask in a day.

You gain Cold resistance 5.

Storm of Souls (Su): Around you in a 10ft area is a swirling mass of angry spirits seeking to destroy those that oppose you. Each round an undead enemy begins it’s turn in this area it takes 1d4 points of spiritual damage.

Soul Carve (Su): Spirits collect onto your weapon to make it longer than normal. Your range for melee attack increases by 5ft.

Skate (Su): Your feet become slick, and you can glide over the ground effortlessly. When moving on solid ground, you gain a +10 bonus to your land speed. When moving downhill the bonus is +20, and there is no bonus when moving uphill. Those with the Skate power usually leave small cold puddles in their wake, as the icy rime beneath them melts away.




Moderate Trait ideas-

Improved Nightmare Step: The distance you can travel with the Nightmare step ability becomes 40ft.

Improved Storm of Souls: The damage to undead dealt by the storm of souls ability become 1d6.

Empowered Fear (Su): Whenever you would cause an enemy to be shaken with the Fearsome Visage or Terrifying Strike abilities, they are Frightened instead.

Return to the Grave (Su): Whenever you deal damage to an undead with a melee weapon, it must make a will save (DC 10 + Ivory Weeper level + Wisdom mod) or suffer 1 charisma damage.

Fueled by Fear (Su): As long as you are within 30ft of an enemy that is Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked you gain Fast Healing 5.

Terrifying Chill (Ex): Undead damaged by your Ghostly Chill ability must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + wisdom mod) or become frightened for 1d4 rounds.

Excommunication (su): The souls of the pious and the fervent lash out against heretics and those who deny the faith. Whenever you confirm a critical strike to a creature with spellcasting ability who’s alignment opposes yours, they lose one random spell slot or level of prepared spell (roll a d10 to determine, reroll on a 10) if they have spell slots. If they have spell-like abilities, they cannot use one of those abilities for 3 rounds (spell chosen at random)

Icewalking (Su): You can traverse icy surfaces as though under a constant Spider Climb effect.

Deathly Silence (Ex): You can make any one spell you cast effected by the Silent spell metamagic feat without increasing that spells level. You can only perform this action 3 times per day regardless of how many times you don your mask in a day and you cannot apply another metamagic feat to that spell.

Deathly Stillness (Ex): You can make any one spell you cast effected by the Still spell metamagic feat without increasing that spells level. You can only perform this action 3 times per day regardless of how many times you don your mask in a day and you cannot apply another metamagic feat to that spell.

You gain Cold resistance 20



Major Trait Ideas (don't have that many at the moment)-


Weapon of Direfrost (Su): When wielding a weapon composed entirely of metal you can forcibly cool it, causing it to harden and condense, creating a layer of sharpened ice over the surface as a move action. The weapon is still considered to be its original size in terms of its weight and your ability to wield it, but it deals damage as if it was one size larger and half it’s damage it’s cold damage. Additionally, the weapon causes the armor of a struck opponent to tighten constrictively; this reduces the Dexterity bonus it offers by 2 and increases the armor check penalty by 2 for 1d4 rounds. This ability is not cumulative (there is no stacking of bonuses or penalties to the opponent’s armor). The ice continues to surround the weapon for as long as your wear your mask.

Greater Nightmare Step: The distance you can travel with your Nightmare Step ability becomes 60ft.

Greater Storm of Souls: The damage from your Storm of Souls becomes 1d8, and it's range becomes 20ft.

Hunter of Souls (Su): You gain a special form of Blindsight, able to pinpoint the location of any creature that possesses a soul within 30ft of you even if you can’t see them.

Body of Ice(Su): You can transmute your body and equipment to ice for a period of time. It takes a standard action to take on the form of ice, and you can end the transmutation with a free action on your turn. When you take on the form of ice, you are immune to cold and have DR 5/—, but you take twice the normal amount of damage from fire.

[Naoki00_]

This is one of the most unique base classes I've seen for 3.5/PF. Its niche is hand-carved by a DM who wants to see it used, and it certainly satisfies the need to both excel at something and not utterly fall flat at everything else. I like it - while I can't comment too much on mechanics, really, it seems solid. Good luck with continued tampering.

Thank you very much for that, that's pretty much exactly what it is honestly.

I might not actually seem like it, but to everyone else I do appreciate the feedback, even criticism is at least something to think about.

[Debihuman]

So is ghostly chill at at will ability or are there limits to the numbers of times per day it can be used? because being able to cause 1d6 points of damage every round at a range of 60 feet is indeed overpowered for a fist level class ability. By the way it is not 1d6/2 it is 1d6 +1d6/2. It adds up quickly. I still think there should be a save for that much damage. Note, you say nothing about duration in any of your special abilities in the text of the abilities. If the ability activates when you "don" the mask, you need to be clear when the ability actually end and that information is missing.

Some language is clearer now. You still haven't defined a "lost soul" as it isn't a ghost. Also see here for soul eater: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/soulEater.html#soul-eater (monster) and here for soul eater prestige class: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/souleater

I'm not sure how you are defining a "lost" soul as opposed to this, "When a soul is not allowed to rest due to some great injustice, either real or perceived, it sometimes comes back as a ghost." This is why ghosts are incorporeal. Ghosts can be restored to their former living selves with true resurrection once they have been destroyed. This is why good clerics and paladins would take umbrage with someone using random souls to power their abilities. I'm not saying that a class can't do it, but understanding why it could be perceived as an evil act might make this class something that "heroes" would have to consider. This is why I asked what the purpose of the Order was. Note: I'm only asking for a broad definition not a write up of the order itself. Just what it's stated purpose is.

Lesser and Moderate traits activate when the mask is donned. However, there is no time limit associated with these. You never explicitly state when the abilities stop working. Are some of these supposed to be permanent effects?

here is my biggest grip. You allow a first level class to bind a soul (soul bind is a 9th level spell) for FREE! Seriously? You didn't find that even a teeny bit overpowered?

Debby

[Naoki00_]

So is ghostly chill at at will ability or are there limits to the numbers of times per day it can be used? because being able to cause 1d6 points of damage every round at a range of 60 feet is indeed overpowered for a fist level class ability. By the way it is not 1d6/2 it is 1d6 +1d6/2. It adds up quickly. I still think there should be a save for that much damage. Note, you say nothing about duration in any of your special abilities in the text of the abilities. If the ability activates when you "don" the mask, you need to be clear when the ability actually end and that information is missing.

Yes it is at will, so is this-
Eldritch Blast (Sp): The first ability a warlock learns is eldritch blast. A warlock attacks his foes with eldritch power, using baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects.
An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.
An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects. Metamagic feats cannot improve a warlock's eldritch blast (because it is a spell-like ability, not a spell). However, the feat Ability Focus (eldritch blast) increases the DC for all saving throws (if any) associated with a warlock's eldritch blast by 2. See page 303 of the Monster Manual.

Ghostly Chill is a LESS POWERFUL version of eldritch blast. It cannot be augmented with anything other than the rare class ability or possibly mask ability and that is limited in rounds, it has no blast shapes or potential cheese level, it does 1 die more of damage at 20th. It cannot hit objects, because it targets only a person, in fact more things can resist Ghostly Chill than Eldritch Blast at most levels. If the main ability of the Warlock that is much more powerful never made that class higher than a Tier 3 when coupled with the ability to shape it into a full attack routine and numerous other things I fail to see how a weaker version is overpowered. Also while I know that they have a missfire chance, a Gunslinger laughs at Ghostly Chill.

And it's implied that if you need to be masked to use an ability, it ends when your not masked. I suppose if it's not obvious enough I can just add "lasts as long as your masked" line somewhere.


Some language is clearer now. You still haven't defined a "lost soul" as it isn't a ghost. Also see here for soul eater: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/soulEater.html#soul-eater (monster) and here for soul eater prestige class: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/souleater

I'm not sure how you are defining a "lost" soul as opposed to this, "When a soul is not allowed to rest due to some great injustice, either real or perceived, it sometimes comes back as a ghost." This is why ghosts are incorporeal. Ghosts can be restored to their former living selves with true resurrection once they have been destroyed. This is why good clerics and paladins would take umbrage with someone using random souls to power their abilities. I'm not saying that a class can't do it, but understanding why it could be perceived as an evil act might make this class something that "heroes" would have to consider. This is why I asked what the purpose of the Order was. Note: I'm only asking for a broad definition not a write up of the order itself. Just what it's stated purpose is.

I don't know how to really say this but I'll just say it bluntly, it's flavor. Mechanically it does very little, it has no ramifications because these souls are wandering/volunteered for a bigger purpose/didn't have great enough purpose to go to one side or the other/whatever other reason you or your DM would like to think of for the setting, because settings are mutable and I didn't want it to be shackled by specific world lore or mechanics and be easily up to interpretation. It's not evil inherently because your both not using negative energy to do it, and unless your doing evil things the souls aren't doing bad things either, and it's temporary, the souls go back to doing whatever/where ever once the ability is done. This is mainly why it has no mechanical benifit other than forming the mask or causing an effect to happen. Both Soul Eaters are obviously taking or stealing the life energy and soul of something, these souls or spirits aren't actually doing anything at the time and aren't even harmed, just momentarily put into a different form to accomplish a task. They are divine casters even, if it means that much it can be "their rituals and devotion to the gods of death and life grant them the power to call souls in those gods service to them for aid", though that I think it a little less mysterious lore wise.

I did state their purpose. They are divine type necromancers who use necromancy to fight the undead. that's the simplest terms.


Lesser and Moderate traits activate when the mask is donned. However, there is no time limit associated with these. You never explicitly state when the abilities stop working. Are some of these supposed to be permanent effects?

It says right here- Moderate Traits: Improving further on the powers gained from the spirit world, at levels 11, 13, and 15 the Ivory Weeper selects an ability to gain while masked from the list below.

If they aren't masked, they don't have it.


here is my biggest grip. You allow a first level class to bind a soul (soul bind is a 9th level spell) for FREE! Seriously? You didn't find that even a teeny bit overpowered?

Debby

I...I can only see a passing relation to either effect, it does NOTHING that soul bind does, not even close. The souls for the mask aren't a recently dead person, you don't lock it away and keep it from doing anything or passing on. it has no mechanical benefit similar, you cannot remotely attempt to do the say because the ability DOES NOT say you can do that. It says "an Ivory Weeper can bind the energy of the spirit world into the form of a white mask" and the flavor is that it's souls. This is not Soul Bind.

[Debihuman]

This is how you fix ghostly chill to do what it is supposed to do.

Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a single target within 60 feet by making a ranged touch attack. This appears as though the ivory weeper hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability can only be used once the ivory weeper's mask is donned and for as long as the mask is in effect. The ray deals deals 1d6 points of damage. Half of this damage is cold damage and the other half is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by spell resistance or by any damage immunity a target might have. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect a target on the Ethereal plane or an incorporeal opponent without any miss chance. However, this doesn't prevent miss chance from effects such as a blur spell from hindering an ivory weeper's ability to hit a target with its ghostly chill.

I highly recommend you edit your document to indicate which abilities are only available once the mask is donned and state for how long those abilities last. Gaining temporary darkvision is fairly useless if it's going to conk out after just a few rounds for example. Water breathing could be downright dangerous if it is lost at the wrong time.

Here is how I would edit Ivory Binding. Note you still have to say which abilities are predicated on using ivory binding.

Ivory Binding (Su): As a standard action, an ivory weeper can bind the energy from the spirit world to appear as white mask with the appearance of the ivory weeper's choosing. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and cannot be removed. An ivory weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 plus her charisma modifier. Each level after first, she gains gains an additional 2 rounds to bind her mask. An ivory weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level, she can bind her mask as a move action; and at 13th level, she can do so as a swift action. While wearing her mask, an ivory weeper gains special abilities that improve as she gains further class levels. At first level, she gain the following traits that can be used as long as her mask is donned and for as long as she wears her mask:

An ivory weeper can see through any form of natural fog, mist, or similar environmental obstruction; and
She can see the spirits of the dead, gaining the ability to cast deathwatch and detect undead spells as at will spell-like abilities; and finally
She can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. However, held objects do not gain this ability unless they are weapons that also have the ghost touch special ability.


Here is how I would fix Lesser Traits. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses including other circumstance bonuses.

Lesser Traits (Ex or Su): At 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels, an ivory weeper's mask gains an ability of her choice from the list below that activates when the mask is donned and lasts for as long as the mask is worn unless otherwise noted. A trait cannot be taken more than once unless specifically stated.

She can breath underwater for a number of hours equal to double her level of ivory weeper.
Spiritual Sense (Su): Ivory weepers with this ability are adept at sensing the presence of those normally outside mortal bounds. She automatically learns if any invisible or incorporeal creatures are within 10 feet of her though she does not learn or pinpoint the creature’s location, only that it is within this range.
She gains a temporary +2 Circumstance bonus on a single physical ability score (Dexterity, Constitution or Strength).
She gains a temporary +1 Circumstance bonus to all saves. She may take this ability more than once.
She gains darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision for 1 hour for each level of ivory weeper she has.
She may cast mage hand at will as a swift action with her caster level equal to her level of ivory weeper.
Her mask’s spiritual power is unnerving to animals who will refuse to come within 10 feet of her unless they pass a Will save. The save is 10 + 1/2 her level of ivory weeper + her Charisma modifier. This ability affects only creatures with the Animal type and not Magical Beasts.
She may grant the Ghost Touch weapon property to any weapon she wields.
Slayer (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from many murderous souls, granting her 1d6 Sneak Attack. She may not gain the Sage or Warrior traits while this trait is active.
Sage (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from scholarly minds, granting a +1 caster level. She may not gain the Slayer or Warrior traits while this trait is active.
Warrior (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from the lost souls of soldiers and glory seekers, granting her a +1 Circumstance bonus on attack and damage rolls with melee weapons. She may not gain Slayer or Sage traits while this trait is active.


Debby

[Naoki00_]

This is how you fix ghostly chill to do what it is supposed to do.

I'm not sure if you mean to but this sounds rather presumptuous. I'm well aware of what it's supposed to do.


Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a single target within 60 feet by making a ranged touch attack. This appears as though the ivory weeper hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. This ability can only be used once the ivory weeper's mask is donned and for as long as the mask is in effect. The ray deals deals 1d6 points of damage. Half of this damage is cold damage and the other half is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by spell resistance or by any damage immunity a target might have. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect a target on the Ethereal plane or an incorporeal opponent without any miss chance. However, this doesn't prevent miss chance from effects such as a blur spell from hindering an ivory weeper's ability to hit a target with its ghostly chill.

You have completely missed the point. Ghostly Chill is supposed to serve the same point as Eldritch Blast does for a Warlock, a reliable ranged attack that serves as a bread and butter or fallback. Making it only usable while masked makes it not only even less powerful than it is (and it's a nerfed version of an already ok ability as I pointed out), but your SUPPOSED to have the masked traits to have it be a kind of combat mode you go into, not have to rely on it for even your most basic class ability. If more masked abilities augmented it, then maybe, but then it's just a warlock rewrite. This ability is meant to assist them in not burning spells and if melee is to risky. It is in not a limited per day ability for this fact.



I highly recommend you edit your document to indicate which abilities are only available once the mask is donned and state for how long those abilities last. Gaining temporary darkvision is fairly useless if it's going to conk out after just a few rounds for example. Water breathing could be downright dangerous if it is lost at the wrong time.

Well then you should consider that then hmm? Seriously that's the point, it's supposed to be something you use for different situations and customize it for your use. Now yes I am aware darkvision isn't that hard to just 'get', but so then don't take the ability. It's useful for when you know you'll be in a dungeon at low levels and don't have it. Water Breathing is more risky, but considering that it's mainly a flavor ability I came up with and aren't happy with, it'll probably change.


Here is how I would edit Ivory Binding. Note you still have to say which abilities are predicated on using ivory binding.

Ivory Binding (Su): As a standard action, an ivory weeper can bind the energy from the spirit world to appear as white mask with the appearance of the ivory weeper's choosing. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and cannot be removed. An ivory weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 plus her charisma modifier. Each level after first, she gains gains an additional 2 rounds to bind her mask. An ivory weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level, she can bind her mask as a move action; and at 13th level, she can do so as a swift action. While wearing her mask, an ivory weeper gains special abilities that improve as she gains further class levels. At first level, she gain the following traits that can be used as long as her mask is donned and for as long as she wears her mask:

An ivory weeper can see through any form of natural fog, mist, or similar environmental obstruction; and
She can see the spirits of the dead, gaining the ability to cast deathwatch and detect undead spells as at will spell-like abilities; and finally
She can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. However, held objects do not gain this ability unless they are weapons that also have the ghost touch special ability.



I see what you've added, and because they are bullet points it's not really needed, each one is a stand alone sentence/ability. I get the idea there though.


Here is how I would fix Lesser Traits. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses including other circumstance bonuses.

Lesser Traits (Ex or Su): At 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels, an ivory weeper's mask gains an ability of her choice from the list below that activates when the mask is donned and lasts for as long as the mask is worn unless otherwise noted. A trait cannot be taken more than once unless specifically stated.

She can breath underwater for a number of hours equal to double her level of ivory weeper.
Spiritual Sense (Su): Ivory weepers with this ability are adept at sensing the presence of those normally outside mortal bounds. She automatically learns if any invisible or incorporeal creatures are within 10 feet of her though she does not learn or pinpoint the creature’s location, only that it is within this range.
She gains a temporary +2 Circumstance bonus on a single physical ability score (Dexterity, Constitution or Strength).
She gains a temporary +1 Circumstance bonus to all saves. She may take this ability more than once.
She gains darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision for 1 hour for each level of ivory weeper she has.
She may cast mage hand at will as a swift action with her caster level equal to her level of ivory weeper.
Her mask’s spiritual power is unnerving to animals who will refuse to come within 10 feet of her unless they pass a Will save. The save is 10 + 1/2 her level of ivory weeper + her Charisma modifier. This ability affects only creatures with the Animal type and not Magical Beasts.
She may grant the Ghost Touch weapon property to any weapon she wields.
Slayer (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from many murderous souls, granting her 1d6 Sneak Attack. She may not gain the Sage or Warrior traits while this trait is active.
Sage (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from scholarly minds, granting a +1 caster level. She may not gain the Slayer or Warrior traits while this trait is active.
Warrior (Ex): The spiritual power of the ivory weeper's mask is granted from the lost souls of soldiers and glory seekers, granting her a +1 Circumstance bonus on attack and damage rolls with melee weapons. She may not gain Slayer or Sage traits while this trait is active.



Why would that makes sense at all? you don't have the mask on, you can't channel a mask trait. I get the point, but considering that you can then just get water breathing and darkvision for HOURS at first level because you can just put on the mask and take it back off for a round once the hour is nearly up, that isn't what I want the mask to be.

And on the last three what do you mean "while active". I meant exactly what I put before, if you pick one of those your choice is just set. If your thinking that you choose abilities when you put the mask on, no. You level up, you pick one, your stuck with it forever.

[Debihuman]

Because of the wording in Ivory Binding, you made it sound like ALL her special abilities are predicated on her wearing her mask and that the effects last as long as she is wearing her mask. Obviously, this is not what you intended. Here is what you currently have written:

[/quote]Ivory Binding(Su): As a standard action, an Ivory Weeper can bind the energy of the spirit world into the form of a white mask with their choice of appearance. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and if removed by someone other than the Weeper, it will just reappear on their face. A Weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4+ charisma modifier. Each level after first they gain an additional 2 rounds to bind their mask. A Weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level they can bind their mask as a move action, and at 13th level as a swift action. While wearing their mask, an Ivory Weeper gains special abilities that improve as they gain further class levels. At 1st level, when donning the mask, an Ivory Weeper gains the following traits:...[/quote]

Here are my latest revisions. I hope this makes more sense:

Ivory Binding (Su): As a standard action, an ivory weeper can bind the energy from the spirit world to appear as white mask with the appearance of the ivory weeper's choosing. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and cannot be removed. An ivory weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 plus her charisma modifier. Each level after first, she gains gains an additional 2 rounds to bind her mask. An ivory weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level, she can bind her mask as a move action; and at 13th level, she can do so as a swift action. At first level, she gain the following traits that can be used as long as her mask is donned and for as long as she wears her mask:

An ivory weeper can see through any form of natural fog, mist, or similar environmental obstruction; and
She can see the spirits of the dead, gaining the ability to cast deathwatch and detect undead spells as at will spell-like abilities; and finally
She can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. However, held objects do not gain this ability unless they are weapons that also have the ghost touch special ability.


Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a single target within 60 feet by making a ranged touch attack. This appears as though the ivory weeper hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. The ray deals deals 1d6 points of damage. Half of this damage is cold damage and the other half is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by spell resistance or by any damage immunity a target might have. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect a target on the Ethereal plane or an incorporeal opponent without any miss chance. However, this doesn't prevent a miss chance from effects such as a blur spell from hindering an ivory weeper's ability to hit a target with its ghostly chill.

I have to admit I wasn't a big fan of the warlock as it's best at low levels. Most of her special abilities don't even get better as she levels, which is a shame. For example, if you can only pick slayer or sage, or warrior one time forever, that's kinda a sucky choice. At least this way, the ivory weeper can swap abilities. As these abilities don't get better over time, there's no reason not to allow them to be swapped as needed.

The main reason I'm not as fond of this class is that it is very bookkeeping oriented. It's a lot to keep track of and easy to forget in combat or other busy situations, making it easy for players to take advantage of the situation. And water breathing for just a few rounds means you can't even get to the bottom of some lakes without drowning. Really not a fan of that. Ditto for darkvision. The spell is much better than the special ability especially since they are fairly low-level spells. The duration of the water breathing and darkvision are the same as the spells so I figured the mask mimicked that. Those should be spell-like abilities. Having water breathing for a few rounds is pointless, as the odds of drowning are high.


Debby

[Naoki00_]

Because of the wording in Ivory Binding, you made it sound like ALL her special abilities are predicated on her wearing her mask and that the effects last as long as she is wearing her mask. Obviously, this is not what you intended. Here is what you currently have written:

It IS intended, just not in the way it came out, you gain more abilities and many do grow in power as you level (Ghostly Chill, Ghostly Wail, Face of the Many, and I consider adding new traits to the mask an inherent "growing stronger as you level" of it). And I'm not sure how you got that 'all' the abilities would need to be masked.


Ivory Binding(Su): As a standard action, an Ivory Weeper can bind the energy of the spirit world into the form of a white mask with their choice of appearance. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and if removed by someone other than the Weeper, it will just reappear on their face. A Weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4+ charisma modifier. Each level after first they gain an additional 2 rounds to bind their mask. A Weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level they can bind their mask as a move action, and at 13th level as a swift action. While wearing their mask, an Ivory Weeper gains special abilities that improve as they gain further class levels. At 1st level, when donning the mask, an Ivory Weeper gains the following traits:...

Yes they do, their traits. It doesn't say 'all' it just says 'they gain special stuff', which is detailed further in the first traits, and then they gain more traits. I will honestly say the wording is wrong because it's what I had originally wrote when more mask abilities relied on class levels more, but I altered that a bit so I could possibly make prestige classes based around the weeper, and Pathfinder has such a downfall (for people like me who do like prestiging one or even multiple times) of tying things so integrally to class level that prestige classes become unappealing.



Here are my latest revisions. I hope this makes more sense:

Ivory Binding (Su): As a standard action, an ivory weeper can bind the energy from the spirit world to appear as white mask with the appearance of the ivory weeper's choosing. Once this appearance is chosen, it cannot be changed. The mask is merely a cosmetic effect of the binding, and cannot be removed. An ivory weeper can bind her mask for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 plus her charisma modifier. Each level after first, she gains gains an additional 2 rounds to bind her mask. An ivory weeper can end the ability early and unbind the mask as a swift action. At 7th level, she can bind her mask as a move action; and at 13th level, she can do so as a swift action. At first level, she gain the following traits that can be used as long as her mask is donned and for as long as she wears her mask:

An ivory weeper can see through any form of natural fog, mist, or similar environmental obstruction; and
She can see the spirits of the dead, gaining the ability to cast deathwatch and detect undead spells as at will spell-like abilities; and finally
She can physically interact with Incorporeal beings and objects. However, held objects do not gain this ability unless they are weapons that also have the ghost touch special ability.


I assume this is what you altered reading it, and I don't really have qualms with that, I actually didn't catch my original line remained anyway.


Ghostly Chill (Su): As a standard action at 1st level, an ivory weeper can send a wave of cold spiritual power at a single target within 60 feet by making a ranged touch attack. This appears as though the ivory weeper hurled a stream of ghostly images at the enemy. The ray deals deals 1d6 points of damage. Half of this damage is cold damage and the other half is pure spiritual energy that is not blocked by spell resistance or by any damage immunity a target might have. This damage increases every odd numbered class level to a maximum of 10d6 and is able to affect a target on the Ethereal plane or an incorporeal opponent without any miss chance. However, this doesn't prevent a miss chance from effects such as a blur spell from hindering an ivory weeper's ability to hit a target with its ghostly chill.

It isn't a spell or treated as such at all in the first place so it never interacts with spell resistance.


I have to admit I wasn't a big fan of the warlock as it's best at low levels. Most of her special abilities don't even get better as she levels, which is a shame. For example, if you can only pick slayer or sage, or warrior one time forever, that's kinda a sucky choice. At least this way, the ivory weeper can swap abilities. As these abilities don't get better over time, there's no reason not to allow them to be swapped as needed.

It's not a bad choice for the level you get them at, which is the idea. By choosing a path your supposed to want to grab the next one in the line, I do admit that I want to change them however as they do grow weak quickly, but when play testing and they DID scale with level they were too strong.

Yes there is plenty reason, it's the same reason you can't swap Rage Powers or Ninja Tricks, it's a path, not a huge tool box to use on the fly. I dislike that choice because it's similar to an Inquisitor's Judgement ability, and I dislike that simply because each of it's judgements can be swapped whenever while in use, so they each have to be made weaker in comparison. I'd much rather make a concrete character path choice that defines a character play style and personality than have every Weeper just using the same things because they all can. Not only that but you can make abilities stronger individually. Am I pleased with Masked Traits as they stand? No, not really, and I've said this.


The main reason I'm not as fond of this class is that it is very bookkeeping oriented. It's a lot to keep track of and easy to forget in combat or other busy situations, making it easy for players to take advantage of the situation. And water breathing for just a few rounds means you can't even get to the bottom of some lakes without drowning. Really not a fan of that. Ditto for darkvision. The spell is much better than the special ability especially since they are fairly low-level spells. The duration of the water breathing and darkvision are the same as the spells so I figured the mask mimicked that. Those should be spell-like abilities. Having water breathing for a few rounds is pointless, as the odds of drowning are high.

Just to put this out there as I was trying to imply before...The Water Breathing and Darkvision abilities are just thematic ones I thought of for doing things at way early levels. It's not supposed to let you go deep sea diving it's supposed to let you have a little extra time if you get dragged under or want to fight underwater (though it's usually a terrible idea). The Darkvision was an idea just cause Humans don't get it and Darkness used to be on their spell list. I removed it later because I thought they had enough field control spells, and just left the trait in because it was thematic choice and I didn't have a replacement, so I settled to just play test and see what others thought till I came up with ideas, which I have as shown above.

Lets just stop arguing about things that are rather silly to argue over anyway and I'll just ask this, are my ideas above better representing of the classes goals and more thematic?

Also I'm not sure how much book keeping there would be compared to similar classes, this has as much going on as a Bard/Barbarian/Magus in terms of things to remember and waaaay less to do than almost any of the prepared casters like Wizard/Cleric/Druid that use pages of note just for spell choice preparation every other combat. Least in my opinion, but I tend to write and use everything I have a character sheet.

[Naoki00_]

Proposed changes to the options for Lesser Traits-

Lesser Traits: At 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels the Ivory Weepers mask gains a single ability of her choice from the list below. Mask Traits are only active or able to be activated while an Ivory Weeper is wearing their mask (unless stated otherwise) and ends or stops being available when the mask is removed. A trait cannot be taken more than once unless specifically stated.


You can breath underwater. You may use this trait while not wearing your mask, but only for a number of minutes equal to your Ivory Weeper level per day.


You gain Darkvision 60ft and Low Light Vision. You may use this trait while not wearing your mask, but only for a number of minutes equal to your Ivory Weeper level per day.


Spiritual Sense(Su): Ivory Weepers with this ability are adept at sensing the presence of those normally outside mortal bounds. She automatically learns if any invisible or incorporeal creatures are within 10 feet of her though she does not learn or pinpoint the creature’s location, only that it is within this range.


Fearsome Visage (Ex): Your mask is even more terrifying than usual. You gain an insight bonus on Intimidate checks equal to ½ your HD and once per round you may attempt an Intimidate check against an enemy within 30ft of you as a move action.


Terrifying Strike (Su): Whenever you successfully deal at least 10 damage with a melee weapon while wearing your mask, the target must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + wis mod) or become shaken for 1d4 rounds.


Nightmare Step (Su): When you’re adjacent to a shaken target, you can teleport up to 20ft per 3 class levels you possess away into a square adjacent to another shaken target as a swift action once every 1d4 rounds.


You may cast Mage Hand at will as a swift action, except that it’s weight limit increases by 5lbs per 2 Ivory Weeper levels you possess beyond 3rd level.


Your mask’s spiritual power is unnerving to animals who will refuse to come within 10ft of you unless they pass a DC 14 will save.


You may grant the Ghost Touch property to any weapon you wield.


Ice Mirror (Su): When you first bind your mask in combat you can increase the time it takes into a full round action (or standard if you normally would bind it as a move action, or move action if you normally bind it as a swift action) to create illusory doubles of yourself through icy mist at the same time. These doubled function as a Mirror Image (as the spell) and lasts for as long as you wear your mask, or until the illusory duplicates are destroyed. You can have no more than one image per 5 class levels (minimum 1) at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can only use this ability 3 times per day, regardless of how many times you bind your mask in a day.


You gain Cold resistance 5.


Storm of Souls (Su): The area surrounding you is a swirling mass of angry spirits seeking to destroy those that oppose you. Each round an undead enemy begins it’s turn adjacent to you it takes 1d4 points of spiritual damage. At 10th level it’s damage increases to 1d6, and at 15th level it becomes 1d8.


Soul Carve (Su): Spirits collect onto your weapon to make it longer than normal. Your range for melee attacks increases by 5ft.


Skate (Su): Your feet become slick, and you can glide over the ground effortlessly. When moving on solid ground, you gain a +10 bonus to your land speed. When moving downhill the bonus is +20, and there is no bonus when moving uphill. Those with the Skate power usually leave small cold puddles in their wake, as the icy rime beneath them melts away.


Ghostly Burst (Su): You can use your Ghostly Chill ability as a 5ft burst centered on you, hitting all creatures adjacent to you. This increases it’s damage to 1d6 per class level (maximum 15d6), but you cannot use your Ghostly Chill again for 3 rounds.


Hydrostasis (Ex): When facing enemies which are composed primarily of water, such as water elementals and oozes, you deal additional damage. All damage from your Ghostly Chill, Spells,and other class abilities that deal cold damage have their die increased to d8 if they were lower. On a natural 20 attack roll on an attack with Ghostly Chill, the water based creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis) or be rendered immobile until they take at least 5 points of fire damage, or make a DC 20 Strength check to break free of their icy prison. [Note- not sure how to word it that humans though 75% water, don't count as 'primarily' in this sense]


Slayer (Ex, Path)- The spiritual power your mask is made of is from many murderous souls, granting you the Sneak Attack ability while masked. Your Sneak attack deals 1d6 of damage, increasing by 1d6 at 4th level and then again every four levels afterward. (You cannot gain another Path tagged Mask Trait.)


Sage (Ex, Path)- The spiritual power your mask is made of is formed of scholarly minds, granting a +1 caster level while masked. At 5th level and every five levels afterward, your mask increases your caster level by an additional +1.(You cannot gain another Path tagged Mask Trait.) [Note- not sure on the power level here]


Warrior (Ex, Path)- The spiritual power your mask is made of is created out of the lost souls of soldiers and glory seekers, granting you a +1 on attack rolls. At 4th level and every four levels afterward you gain an additional +1 on attack rolls. (You cannot gain another Path tagged Mask Trait.)

[Debihuman]

At this point we are sorta going around in circles. I'll wait to see if the ivory weeper document is edited and then make additional comments. Otherwise, it seems to be going in the right direction.

Debby

[Naoki00_]

These are some possible major alterations to the final draft as it stand, though perfectly aware of some potential balance issues with certain traits this is simply as the came to mind, playtesting or opinion from others will help determine if these changes are for the best or if a different direction should be taken. I'll provide a link here, as well as at the top of the page.

Potential Ivory Weeper final ability draft. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15GQL2SjcLhzG1gUWFUTY8M2MH2OZKf1JqukJBq60nSU/pub)

[Naoki00_]

All potential changes added to final draft for testing purposes.

[Debihuman]

What happens when you roll a 1 on Ghostly chill? Does the target take no damage since half of it is cold and the other half is spiritual damage?

[Naoki00_]

What happens when you roll a 1 on Ghostly chill? Does the target take no damage since half of it is cold and the other half is spiritual damage?

Honestly I'm not really sure how they do that, the same thing is in Hellfire ray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hellfire-ray), but it doesn't actually say. I would generally assume the 1 damage would be treated in the most favorable light, and thus always deal at least 1.

[Debihuman]

Honestly I'm not really sure how they do that, the same thing is in Hellfire ray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hellfire-ray), but it doesn't actually say. I would generally assume the 1 damage would be treated in the most favorable light, and thus always deal at least 1.

With hellfire ray, you are always rolling at least 11d6 since it is a 6th level spell, so you'll never actually roll just a 1. You need to determine what the 1 does. You could also change this to 2d3 points of damage and then you would also have to amend your text to reflect how it gains an extra 1d3 at every odd level to a maximum of 11d3.

[Naoki00_]

With hellfire ray, you are always rolling at least 11d6 since it is a 6th level spell, so you'll never actually roll just a 1. You need to determine what the 1 does. You could also change this to 2d3 points of damage and then you would also have to amend your text to reflect how it gains an extra 1d3 at every odd level to a maximum of 11d3.

I would assume like with any die based roll just putting "(minimum 1)" under it's damage would suffice, and I was just using hellfire ray as a wording example since I couldn't actually remember the one I was mainly thinking of that could deal 1 damage. As for the d3 idea I really don't like that idea, d3s aren't used too much and I really would rather stick to a more standard and easy to recognize die size.

[Debihuman]

You roll a d3 by rolling a d6. 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, and 5-6 = 3. It's just shorthand.

[Naoki00_]

You roll a d3 by rolling a d6. 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, and 5-6 = 3. It's just shorthand.

Apologies for the late post, life just kinda happens like that. I still don't really like the idea of using d3s just because it would be a bit weird, very few things use that many of them after all. As for the class though, the new abilities are up, and while still needing balance testing they should be more interesting.