Question about Marvel Comics and Cyclops

[Ramza00]

So I do not follow all the details of the marvel comics, but I know the broad outlines of what is happening in their world.

Recently I just read Young Avengers Children's Crusade (2010) the arc where the Young Avengers seek out to find the lost Scarlet Witch after she disappeared from the world after saying no more mutants and several million mutants just lost their powers.

Well Cyclops wanted to execute Wanda after she was found, not because she was a continued risk but because he considered the loss of millions of mutants and their powers to be an equivalent of a genocide. It did not matter that she was influenced by a magical life force and she was not quite in her right mind when she took away all those mutant powers during M-Day, he still wanted justice and he wanted her dead.



My question is this the same Scott Summers who in the 1980s who was trying to save Jean Grey after Jean went Dark Phoenix and made a sungo supernova and she killed billions of people, people who were sentient and now they no longer existed? So what is the difference?

That she was my girlfriend?

That they were aliens?

That losing powers is a fate worse than death?

That psychic phoenix force powers excuse your behavior but mystical magical life force powers means you are a monster?

Or is there something I just am not getting?

[Phobia]

Written by different people who don't keep the characters consistent over years and years of stories?

[Ramza00]

Written by different people who don't keep the characters consistent over years and years of stories?

Yeah maybe I am just a little bitter over the craziness that has happened in the main marvel universe over the last decade or so. None of the characters are consistent and events are forced onto the world in a way that does not make sense in order to create controversy.

Maybe that is why I can only like side universes and side teems anymore. The "main characters" that have existed for decades might as well be clones with new memories and personalities for they are not like the people they used to be.

Change is not bad but it has to be somewhat logical.

[themaque]

I think Cyclops is someone who got the raw end of the deal in order to make him more hip. At one point his character traits where..

Good Team Field Leader
Good boyfriend

adn that was about it. he had some angst with his power, but even that was kinda low level with how responsible they made him.

So the bad boyed him up a little. I used to love Cyclops but these days?

[Aotrs Commander]

I called it character development. And not unjustifyable, since were were talking about the mass genocide of the mutants. And unlike with Phoenix, this time, it hit close to home, because Cyke actually knew the victims, and that always hits harder. also, he was older and rather more cynical. (And, honestly, I would only disagree with Jean being executed at the time because it was the Shi'Ar doing it ('cos otherwise, yeah, genocide)1.

Oh, and frankly, the mind-rape of the entire planet was more than sufficient grounds for Wanda's exectution - what she did there, never mind "no more mutants" was pretty much the most absolutely abhorrent single thing I can easily think of ever done in the Marvel U, topping most of the villains (outside of the Ulimate Universe, of course, which sinks to new lows).

I found that, for me, the "Scott goes a bit yampy and hardline" post-M-Day, pre-schism stories were actually the last gasp for X-Men being good (M-Day, being of course, as terrible an idea as One More Day and making Jubilee a Vampire, even if that happened in that period). (I actually only ever even liked Cyke after Whedon got hold of him and he got a bit more of an edge and was something other than, as said above, the "good boyfriend/generic slightly angsty solumn leader" steriotype. And Emma was a much better love-interest than Jean ever has been, since she was for decades her own (interesting) character first and not created as a specific love-interest which Jean has never shaken. I thought the funniest bit of The Last Stand was, if I had to pick three X-Men to die, Prof X, Cyclops and Jean would have topped the list.) As Marvel Now! came up and all the titles ended and they broke that up, I didn't bother to replace them with the new ones. I had found I gotten issues stacked up for months and upon finally reading them, found I was bored. I realised how utterly damning it was that I got more entertainment out of one issue of the My Little Pony comics than out of the last two or three years of X-Men.

The only Marvel title left I'm reading is Adjectiveless X-Men With Jubilee In It and only because Jubilee Is In It and Jubilee is my favoritest of favourite character in anything ever.

So, while I may disagree on your stance on Cyclops, I do entirely agree on the direction of Stupid the comics have taken.

I blame solidly creation of the Ultimate Universe, because once the writers got encouraged to pull that crazy batspit, it inevitably bled back into the main universe.



1If she'd have genocided them, it'd would have been an atrocity, it would have been a public service. Shi'Ar - and Gladiatior in particular - are one of the vanishingly few things I hate more than Vampires.

[t209]

Well, here is what my classmate said,
"he's pretty much a [certain totalitarian german political party] now."
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/001/7/d/x_mare_by_csimadmax-d70fj7q.png (summary on new cyclops)
I don't know if he was right or Magneto 2.0. Then again, I was surprised since I only watched Xmen evolution and 1996 cartoon. I just wish either people start noticing Avengers before beating up a mutant or Sentinel (except days of the future past and Larry Trask's arc) paying a visit to the mansion.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's worth noting that the X-Men in the comics were not identical to the ones the 1990's cartoon IN the 1990s (as watching one lead me to start picking up the other), let alone twenty years later.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find ANY comic character that is written the same twenty years apart. (Asterix, maybe, for a loose definition of "comic?")

Society changes.

[DiscipleofBob]

The treatment of Scott and Jean is one of the reasons I stopped reading comics and one of the only remaining reasons I haven't started again.

I think it comes to the idea that people (and by people I mean what marketing departments think are the ideas of people and not necessarily actual people) don't like the Leonardos of the world; the leaders, the red rangers, the boy scouts.

Scott was basically Captain America or Superman in mutant form in terms of what he stood for, but at some point someone decided that Wolverine was more interesting (something I will always heavy disagree with) and have done everything they could to derail the character. Now Scott's what he originally fought against and until he goes back to what made him my favorite Marvel character ever, I won't be picking up another Marvel issue.

[Tiki Snakes]

Scott was never mutant Captain America, never mutant Superman. He was always the up tight soldier boy. He was a good leader and an interesting character, as well as being one of the original team's heavy hitters, but he was never that inspirational true-blue type.

And he's had real downsides so to speak for a very, very long time. See the first issues of X-Factor, for example.

So he's finally cashed in the potential foreshadowing from the Age of Apocalypse and undergone a full face-heel turn. Good. It's a nicely meaty betrayal, a juicy storyline to work with. Gives him the potential to be a really hateable villain.

[t209]

It's worth noting that the X-Men in the comics were not identical to the ones the 1990's cartoon IN the 1990s (as watching one lead me to start picking up the other), let alone twenty years later.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find ANY comic character that is written the same twenty years apart. (Asterix, maybe, for a loose definition of "comic?")

Society changes.
I know. Cyclops was my favorite character in X-Men cartoons but I was suprised when I look at the comic version (as noted in my pony comic post).
Now, my favorite is Captain America and Scarlet Witch* (the pre-House of M version).
*Well, her brother (Quick Silver) is still a jerk in the comic though. It maybe different as a villain in X-Men: Evolution but he's pretty much an arrogant of all Avengers.


Scott was never mutant Captain America, never mutant Superman. He was always the up tight soldier boy. He was a good leader and an interesting character, as well as being one of the original team's heavy hitters, but he was never that inspirational true-blue type.
Well, I think he meant it as an idealistic student who wanted to live up to Xavier's dream. Maybe he and Captain America (Unlike his country and even 1930s version, he was actually tolerant to the mutants) should be best buddies and create an integration program.
Then Avengers vs. X-Men ruined the potential.

[themaque]

. Gives him the potential to be a really hateable villain.

You either die or hero or live long enough to be the villain sort of thing?

Quicksilver has ALWAYS been a jerk. and they had a real good humanizing explination for that as well.


http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pms3.jpg

[Aotrs Commander]

I think it comes to the idea that people (and by people I mean what marketing departments think are the ideas of people and not necessarily actual people) don't like the Leonardos of the world; the leaders, the red rangers, the boy scouts.

Actually - I don't. I never liked the "generic noble leader" type as a child. Optimus Prime, Leonardo, Cyclops (Prof X by extension), Lion-O - He-Man come to that - Jayce, Matt Trakker... (Superman, Cap, too.) I found all of them dull and heavily outdone by their much more fun supporting cast. (Respectively, Jazz, Grimlock... actually never did like the turtle that much but I guess Donatello would be it if I had to pick one), Jubilee, Wolverine1, Beast, Gambit... Actually, for the next two I was never a particular fan (and I preferred She-Ra to He-Man) and the last two I only watched because vehicles).

(Proviso: In later years, the endlessly bleak grittiness of current media actually means I have a new-found appreciation for the likes of He-Man and Superman, at any rate.)

I always found Cyclops and Jean insufferably dull in the 1990s X-Men. Jean especially was just so... wishy-washing-sounding. They really should have gone a different route with her; I can never see her as anything other than Cyclop' Designated Love Interest and her most memorable lines from the show I can recall were "oh Scott!" repeated adfinitum. Storm and Rogue (and Jubes, 'natch) were all so much better...) 1990s cartoon Cyclops was just another extension of the 1980s cartoon "noble leader" type I disliked. I cannot think of a single thing about him that did not involve Being Serious Leader or Involving Jean - even in that episode that was totally centred around him to the exclusion of all the other characters, where you'd have thought he could have shone a bit. When they'd given Cyke a bit of an edge (I say "they" I mean "after Whedon got hold of him" and he was bantering and bit more witty, I found him much more engaging. Of COURSE, though, towards the end, once the creative team changed a few times, they eventually went completely overboard with it and made him-pants-on-head-Evil and spoiled everything, but there you go.

I have been watching Teen Titans Go in the last day or two, and I like Titans Go Robin much more than Teen Titans Robin, because the silliness allows him to be the butt of the joke much more than the straightman. (Neurotic Robin is vastly more entertaining.) I think a few more non-leadership failure/love-interest-related flaws or interests would have done the aforementioned a world of good. (Transformers: Prime Prime is far less interesting than G1 cartoon Prime or even - *gasp* Bayformers Prime, sicne the latter pair actually had a sense of humour...)



1Wolverine is somewhat unique in that I am not normally a fan of his sort of character at all. Wolvie gets away with because he DOES have a sense of humour and some depth (when not allowed to descend into too much angst.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Everyone forgets that the retcon that brought Jean Grey back several years after Dark Phonenix... was that it was NEVER her.

Jean never killed an entire star system.
Jean never died.
She was sleeping at the bottom of Jamaica Bay the whole time.

The Phoenix Force took her form and personality while making a new body and threw Jean in a special pod to heal her radiation poisoning and years later it got to Reed Richards.

What's that this completely undermines what's possibly the greatest X-men storyline of all time and was more/less ignored by everyone and their brother beyond "hah hah Jean comes back from the dead every other issue" despite never having been dead because its too annoying to remember and basically a smarmy legal technicality argument? Too bad that's the story, pay more attention.

...

And people look at me funny when I do things like call continuity a disease that has killed comics.

[Aotrs Commander]

Everyone forgets that the retcon that brought Jean Grey back several years after Dark Phonenix... was that it was NEVER her.

Jean never killed an entire star system.
Jean never died.
She was sleeping at the bottom of Jamaica Bay the whole time.

The Phoenix Force took her form and personality while making a new body and threw Jean in a special pod to heal her radiation poisoning and years later it got to Reed Richards.

What's that this completely undermines what's possibly the greatest X-men storyline of all time and was more/less ignored by everyone and their brother beyond "hah hah Jean comes back from the dead every other issue" despite never having been dead because its too annoying to remember and basically a smarmy legal technicality argument? Too bad that's the story, pay more attention.

...

And people look at me funny when I do things like call continuity a disease that has killed comics.

No, I remember perfectly well - I just kinda don't care, because I find Jean such an insipid character that she's not even worth the effort of my time to clarify.



Heck, the only time I came even close to liking her when in Wolverine and the X-Men and that was solely because she was Voiced By Jennifer Hale...

[DiscipleofBob]

Scott was an orphan mutant with uncontrollable powers who ended up becoming leader of the x-men and ended up representing the best mutant kind have to offer, and being a living counterpoint to Magneto's "mutants and humans can never coexist."

Jean Grey showed that even someone with the power to read minds can be trusted to act responsibly and teach others to do the same.

Together, they disproved mutant supremacists and mutant haters by showing that mutants can coexist with humans while using their powers for good.

All while maintaining a relationship of absolute commitment and trust by establishing a permanent mind-link. They've been through more hackneyed plots and forced separations than the entirety of Jerry Springer, and they still made it work, while still being role models for the rest of mutants and even heroes in general.

But that's too boring, so lets instead focus on Scott being uptight and Jean going crazy while we bring in more "interesting" characters like generic amnesiac badass rebel living checklist Wolverine and actual mind-rapist Emma.

And Scott's SOOOO much more interesting now that he's thrown away everything he ever stood for and become Magneto 2.0.

Why yes, I am bitter. I would like to see at least one comic relationship actually work rather than immediately be torn apart by plot device of the week. Perfectly happy married couples can have interesting plots soon. Not everything needs to be love triangles and will they/won't they and on again/off again.

[Aotrs Commander]

Scott was an orphan mutant with uncontrollable powers who ended up becoming leader of the x-men and ended up representing the best mutant kind have to offer, and being a living counterpoint to Magneto's "mutants and humans can never coexist."

Jean Grey showed that even someone with the power to read minds can be trusted to act responsibly and teach others to do the same.

Together, they disproved mutant supremacists and mutant haters by showing that mutants can coexist with humans while using their powers for good.

All while maintaining a relationship of absolute commitment and trust by establishing a permanent mind-link. They've been through more hackneyed plots and forced separations than the entirety of Jerry Springer, and they still made it work, while still being role models for the rest of mutants and even heroes in general.

See, I personally don't think they did. Aside from their "being in relationship" part, I don't think they have done nothing more - and nothing LESS, though, to be fair and clear - more notable in those areas than many of the other X-Men, anyway. (And note I say "many" and not "all" because this is the X-Men here...)



So. Geninue question here.

What are Scott's hobbies? What does/did Jean do for fun? Aside from hanging out as a couple?

Because I have been watching/reading the X-Men for twenty years and I honestly can't answer that question off the top of my head. I'd have to go look it up on wiki. Wolverine likes his beer. Beast reads the classics. Storm has her gardens. Jubilee is a gamer (or was anyway.) Gambit likes his cards games... Rogue has something of a fondness for sappy romance novels. Nightcrawer fences.

Aside from it being mentioned that Scott is very good at pool because of his secondary powers, I have no idea who he is, what he does, aside from Being Jean's Husband and Being The Archetypal X-Man Progeny. I just find it inconcievable that a guy with what should be actually such cool powers could be so... Unengaging.

That - that is why I found Scott improved when Whedon started, because at least he was showing something. Yeah, Scott Summers would probably be a better person than many to invite round to family tea or something (provided you could stop all his enemies showing up and trying to kill everyone), but I can count of the fingers of... probably no hands actually, the number of fictional characters with whom I'd get along with rather than read about the exploits of.



Mind you, I don't believe that HUMANS can coexist with humans, whether or not those humans have special powers is rather irrelevant, since humans will always find something to be crappy over without someone to stand over their collective shoulders with a cattleprod. So I think it was entirely reasonable for Scott to finally decide after 99% of his subspecies being wiped out, having his wife murdered, the government turn his home into a concentration camp in all but name and surroundingly them with version of giant robot originally designed to repress them which failed to even make an impression on any of the umpteen specific attacks made on said mansion including a busload of students being murdered and [expletieving] sniper, his wife's family being brutually and callously murdered by space aliens while his daughter-from-the-future witnessed it, that y'know what, maybe he'd had enough of this crap and it was time to actually do something. Which involved, lest we forget, moving to a place where they were actually welcomed by the authorities and making a team so they could and would go kick anyone's arses who threatened mutants (because apaprently otheriwse is was fracking open season) but also, to, most importantly, to go out and proactively work as superheroes, as opposed to accidently being them by being in the right place at the right time. Which lead to some of the most awesome stories we'd had for a while. Before they decided to go "no, all the X-Men go mad with power and go totally evil, and now we'll replace them with themselves from other realities/timelines and whatnot."

[themaque]

See, I personally don't think they did. Aside from their "being in relationship" part, I don't think they have done nothing more - and nothing LESS, though, to be fair and clear - more notable in those areas than many of the other X-Men, anyway. (And note I say "many" and not "all" because this is the X-Men here...)



So. Geninue question here.

What are Scott's hobbies? What does/did Jean do for fun? Aside from hanging out as a couple?
now we'll replace them with themselves from other realities/timelines and whatnot."

I think he liked pool? Reading, Studying, exersice and training. Then spending time with jean WAS his off relaxation time. Borring but comendable. I personaly think you need a straight man in order to really counter the darky dark dark loner types that they will throw at you every other issue.

I liked having someone being a responsaible figurehead. -shrugs- I will agree that Joss Wheadon tried to do something interesting, but it spiraled out of control.

But if we look at the core of why we dissagree, you admited you never really liked the Leo Archetype, and I always really admired it. -shrugs- It very often can get kicked in the mud in order to add "character" or make someone more hip.

EDIT EDITION:I will happily admit Whedon did try to add something to Scott without taking away his core. Unfortunitly he did not last long that way.


Scott was an orphan mutant with uncontrollable powers who ended up becoming leader of the x-men and ended up representing the best mutant kind have to offer, and being a living counterpoint to Magneto's "mutants and humans can never coexist."

Jean Grey showed that even someone with the power to read minds can be trusted to act responsibly and teach others to do the same.

Together, they disproved mutant supremacists and mutant haters by showing that mutants can coexist with humans while using their powers for good.

All while maintaining a relationship of absolute commitment and trust by establishing a permanent mind-link. They've been through more hackneyed plots and forced separations than the entirety of Jerry Springer, and they still made it work, while still being role models for the rest of mutants and even heroes in general.

But that's too boring, so lets instead focus on Scott being uptight and Jean going crazy while we bring in more "interesting" characters like generic amnesiac badass rebel living checklist Wolverine and actual mind-rapist Emma.

And Scott's SOOOO much more interesting now that he's thrown away everything he ever stood for and become Magneto 2.0.

Why yes, I am bitter. I would like to see at least one comic relationship actually work rather than immediately be torn apart by plot device of the week. Perfectly happy married couples can have interesting plots soon. Not everything needs to be love triangles and will they/won't they and on again/off again.

This man sums up my feelings as well. Married couples are hard to write for. So better Kill them off or drive one crazy!

That's beyond just Cyclops so I may be venting.

[DiscipleofBob]

See, I personally don't think they did. Aside from their "being in relationship" part, I don't think they have done nothing more - and nothing LESS, though, to be fair and clear - more notable in those areas than many of the other X-Men, anyway. (And note I say "many" and not "all" because this is the X-Men here...)

So. Geninue question here.

What are Scott's hobbies? What does/did Jean do for fun? Aside from hanging out as a couple?

Because I have been watching/reading the X-Men for twenty years and I honestly can't answer that question off the top of my head. I'd have to go look it up on wiki. Wolverine likes his beer. Beast reads the classics. Storm has her gardens. Jubilee is a gamer (or was anyway.) Gambit likes his cards games... Rogue has something of a fondness for sappy romance novels. Nightcrawer fences.

Aside from it being mentioned that Scott is very good at pool because of his secondary powers, I have no idea who he is, what he does, aside from Being Jean's Husband and Being The Archetypal X-Man Progeny. I just find it inconcievable that a guy with what should be actually such cool powers could be so... Unengaging.


If you had actually been reading x-men comics comprehensively for as long as you say, I find it difficult to believe you could say that about one of its founding members. Especially when your other personality traits listed are one-note quirks.

To answer your question, Scott comes from tragedy, losing his parents and brother while subconsciously blaming himself for the whole ordeal. After being raised in an orphanage, he might have actually recovered and lived a normal life if not for the sudden emergence of his powers. After going through what he must have believed would be permanent blindness, he gets a second chance with Xavier. Despite his depression and trauma, Xavier sees potential in him and educates and trains him with other mutants. Scott becomes a character who overcomes his own self-doubt, his own weaknesses, and becomes the leader of the X-Men. He even gets the girl when wealthier rivals (Angel) and smarter rivals (Beast) are vying for her affections. As for his personal life, he has his relationship with Jean (and sorry, but relationships with loved ones do count for personality traits), as well as being a teacher, a role model, and leading a team of superheroes to protect a world that hates them. In his spare time he's an excellent athlete, especially in baseball, basketball, and pool, in part due to his spatial awareness, and often arranges leagues and games with the other X-Men and students. He also likes to tinker with his motorcycle and whatever other super vehicles the x-men currently have. He's also a math genius and a hopeless romantic when with Jean.

Jean had to rebuild her ability to trust after an adolescence of hearing her friend's dying thoughts and then dealing with the less nice thoughts of everyone around her. Especially with the growing anti-mutant sentiment were she could literally hear their hate. Her primary interests besides teaching and being with Scott involve mainly building friendships. She goes shopping with other x-men not because she likes shopping, but she likes being with people she trusts. She also shows incredible restraint with her abilities.

Their relationship is probably the strongest in comic history (when written well) because they share a mutual mind link. They spare nothing from each other, not even their most private thoughts. No couple in history could ever have that kind of connection, and it boggles my mind the level of commitment and cooperation that would take considering how difficult even normal relationships are.

That is who Scott and Jean are to me. I'm not saying it's wrong to prefer Wolverine to Scott or the Raphael to Leonardo, but it infuriates me to see someone like Wolverine get blatant favoritism from writers and Scott seen as just "the uptight one" when it's Scott who's trying to lead a school, a team of superheroes, and build diplomatic relations in his own civil rights era and Wolverines claim to fame is being a jerk, being insubordinate while insisting on staying on the team anyway, drinking beer, and reinventing his origin story every week to whatever fad is in. Oh what's that? Ninjas are in now? Well Wolverines secretly Japanese now!

And I suppose "likes beer" counts as a personality now, but a lifetime of overcoming adversity doesn't.

To be fair, I adored Whedons run, but only because he took the X-Men in one of their worst eras (at the time anyway, they've definitely gone downhill) and turning absolute crap into gold.

[Aotrs Commander]

If you had actually been reading x-men comics comprehensively for as long as you say, I find it difficult to believe you could say that about one of its founding members. Especially when your other personality traits listed are one-note quirks.

I was listing hobbies, not personalities (or character histories) that I could think of, off the top of my head.


To answer your question, Scott comes from tragedy, losing his parents and brother while subconsciously blaming himself for the whole ordeal. After being raised in an orphanage, he might have actually recovered and lived a normal life if not for the sudden emergence of his powers. After going through what he must have believed would be permanent blindness, he gets a second chance with Xavier. Despite his depression and trauma, Xavier sees potential in him and educates and trains him with other mutants. Scott becomes a character who overcomes his own self-doubt, his own weaknesses, and becomes the leader of the X-Men. He even gets the girl when wealthier rivals (Angel) and smarter rivals (Beast) are vying for her affections. As for his personal life, he has his relationship with Jean (and sorry, but relationships with loved ones do count for personality traits), as well as being a teacher, a role model, and leading a team of superheroes to protect a world that hates them. In his spare time he's an excellent athlete, especially in baseball, basketball, and pool, in part due to his spatial awareness, and often arranges leagues and games with the other X-Men and students. He also likes to tinker with his motorcycle and whatever other super vehicles the x-men currently have. He's also a math genius and a hopeless romantic when with Jean.

Most of which is character history, which I know. Motorcycle thing is a fair point (now you mention it) - can't say as I've heard much about him being a math genius aside from what comes from hsi powers, but that's a what-he-is, not a who-he-is.

Okay, he likes sport, too. So there we go. Though I think it says something that it's mentioned sufficiently rarely that you had to tell me. Now, granted, I don't pay all that much attention to Cyclops, but I don't pay a particular amount to Storm or Rogue either, and I still osmosed something of them over the years.




(and sorry, but relationships with loved ones do count for personality traits)

I'm afraid I shall have to completely disagree.

[Metahuman1]

I personally have a strong suspicion that a good chunk of this is Marvel wanting to scare off people from reading X-men for the most part until they own the film rights at least in part to them again.

Same way there's no more fantastic four and it was right around the time that Marvel Studieo's was becoming a thing that Spider-man had One More Day (Though THAT one I would actually believe was just a coincidence because *)@!ing Joe Quesada.), or that the Fantastic Four are out of publication and being ignored as much as possible right now. Or that only now, that Disney has some more film rights to Spider-man then they have ever had, do they want to even tease the possibility of Undoing One More Day.

And yes, that means if Marvel ever get's there hooks back into X-men and/or Fantastic Four, you can expect not long there after them to at least start teasing a triumphant return. Though, given that Disney now has a no smoking unless you need historical accuracy (Say, something set in the 1800's about someone who was a known smoker.) policy, that begs the question, what are they gonna do about Wolverine's Trade Mark Cigar habit?




Oh, and I seem to recall both being fairly into Athletics, though not always mens/womens versions of the same sport, I seem to also recall that Scott was good at Academics but Jean was more the heavy hitter on that front and more "Into" it, and Scott was actually into bikes and mechanics in general.

Remembering also that between not just super heroing but keeping and running a team together effectively, doing training cause there powers require a lot of constant practice to use both effectively and safely for everyone involved (Enemy's, allies and none combatants alike cause there not precisely kill happy after all, prior to recent bad events.), teaching professionally, and running a near constant civil rights campaign, and having a relationship, and training younger supers how to control there powers often from the ground up, that's gonna eat a LOT of time in a day. A whole lot of time. And those are mostly 7-day a week 365 day a year type gigs they way there set up. (Maybe add workaholic/overachiever to there personality's.)

Plus, you've also gotta have time for little things the body and mind really needs. Medical care, Hygene, eating, sleep.


That's a rather full schedule to juggle there. Rather full indeed.

[Aotrs Commander]

Same way there's no more fantastic four and it was right around the time that Marvel Studieo's was becoming a thing that Spider-man had One More Day (Though THAT one I would actually believe was just a coincidence because *)@!ing Joe Quesada.), or that the Fantastic Four are out of publication and being ignored as much as possible right now.

Really?

*sigh*

I say that like I should be surprised.




Though, given that Disney now has a no smoking unless you need historical accuracy (Say, something set in the 1800's about someone who was a known smoker.) policy, that begs the question, what are they gonna do about Wolverine's Trade Mark Cigar habit?

I imagine the exact same thing they've been doing for the last decade-and-a-half, since they banned the characters from smoking.

(Yes, it was Quesada. Yes, I don't disagree with it, for once, showing that even a stopped clock can be right once per day.)

I'm afraid the only time I permit people around me to smoke is if I've set them on fire, so I actually don't have a problem with Wolverine not smoking - nor have I ever associated it with his character, particularly.

[themaque]

I personally have a strong suspicion that a good chunk of this is Marvel wanting to scare off people from reading X-men for the most part until they own the film rights at least in part to them again.

Same way there's no more fantastic four and it was right around the time that Marvel Studieo's was becoming a thing that Spider-man had One More Day (Though THAT one I would actually believe was just a coincidence because *)@!ing Joe Quesada.), or that the Fantastic Four are out of publication and being ignored as much as possible right now. Or that only now, that Disney has some more film rights to Spider-man then they have ever had, do they want to even tease the possibility of Undoing One More Day.

And yes, that means if Marvel ever get's there hooks back into X-men and/or Fantastic Four, you can expect not long there after them to at least start teasing a triumphant return. Though, given that Disney now has a no smoking unless you need historical accuracy (Say, something set in the 1800's about someone who was a known smoker.) policy, that begs the question, what are they gonna do about Wolverine's Trade Mark Cigar habit?

.

It's also why they have not introduced any new mutants for some time. Mutants are the cinematic domain of Fox.

Inhumans however! Hence their increased pressense in the MCU, Comic universe, and on SHIELD TV show.

[t209]

It's also why they have not introduced any new mutants for some time. Mutants are the cinematic domain of Fox.

Inhumans however! Hence their increased pressense in the MCU, Comic universe, and on SHIELD TV show.
Meaning (any movie rights not included in Marvel Studios, like Fantastic Four and X-Men) no
- Silver Surfer => a good chunk of Marvel Cosmos => Steve Gerber's Defenders run (I just wish they adapted this instead of Agent of SMASH, imagine Hulk arguing with Dr. Strange).
I know they are adapting for Netflix but it didn't feel like a comic without Hulk and Dr. Strange.

[Metahuman1]

Really?

*sigh*

I say that like I should be surprised.





I imagine the exact same thing they've been doing for the last decade-and-a-half, since they banned the characters from smoking.

(Yes, it was Quesada. Yes, I don't disagree with it, for once, showing that even a stopped clock can be right once per day.)

I'm afraid the only time I permit people around me to smoke is if I've set them on fire, so I actually don't have a problem with Wolverine not smoking - nor have I ever associated it with his character, particularly.

Really. For all practical intentions and purposes, no new X-characters unless they originate elsewhere first. Which is I'm told part of why Kang the Conqueror got to be an X-men not that long ago. (I've not read the issue myself so I don't know.)



And, I'm fine with certain characters smoking. The vampire's smoking? Sure, after all, he can't take negative effects from it. Wolverine or Deadpool or other characters with similar healing factors? Go for it. After all, I'm an adult, I can differentiate between fiction and reality just fine thank you very much.



Now, if say, Storm or Gambit started smoking, that might irritate me a bit cause there not immune to the bad stuff that goes with.

[themaque]

And, I'm fine with certain characters smoking. The vampire's smoking? Sure, after all, he can't take negative effects from it. Wolverine or Deadpool or other characters with similar healing factors? Go for it. After all, I'm an adult, I can differentiate between fiction and reality just fine thank you very much.

Now, if say, Storm or Gambit started smoking, that might irritate me a bit cause there not immune to the bad stuff that goes with.

Disney at least isn't going to make the distinction between healing factors and not. They just don't want to make ANY character looking cool by smoking. Gambit would probably be a smoker IRL.

I'm allergic to smoke, It's horrible for you, but you have to admit, it looks cool as all heck. and is an easy way for artists to have people fiddling or doing something in a scene. not to mention drawing neato smoke effects. But comics are not just for adults, ESPECIALLY Marvel comics.

I remember they started No-Smoking bans back in the 90's with middling effects.

[Airea]

No, I remember perfectly well - I just kinda don't care, because I find Jean such an insipid character that she's not even worth the effort of my time to clarify.



Heck, the only time I came even close to liking her when in Wolverine and the X-Men and that was solely because she was Voiced By Jennifer Hale...

Then you need to excuse yourself from any mention of her on this thread. You are overtly bias, blatantly hostile to the topic at hand and a key character in mention therein. Jean is intrinsic in any discussion of Scott, and for good reason. That is not going to change.

This is the only mature response when such dislike is present for a character. I have the same dislike of Both Sara Lance and Felicity Smoak from Arrow. If they died yesterday I would cheer. But knowing this I do not jump on discussion of them - I am openly bias against them and I know it. Any commentary of them made by me would be questionable at best. As anything you say about Jean is for you. If you are so overtly hostile about her, by far my favorite character in the whole the marvel universe BTW, then say nothing. For nothing you say on the matter is of any value.

[Thrudd]

Really. For all practical intentions and purposes, no new X-characters unless they originate elsewhere first. Which is I'm told part of why Kang the Conqueror got to be an X-men not that long ago. (I've not read the issue myself so I don't know.)


That isn't true. New mutant characters have been continually introduced in x-men titles from at least 2011 (generation hope) until now. There are two whole schools of them (well, only one school as of this month).

Also, fantastic four is still being published, a new title just started in 2014, and the characters have been continually appearing in other titles before that. Yes, the title is ending later this year. But I'm sure it won't be permanent.

I don't know where the conspiracy rumors come from, about marvel trying to undermine their own comics in order to affect the movies. It clearly isn't true, the comics department tries to capitalize on the popularity from any movie that comes out, regardless of the studio that made it. Now, you could argue that the xmen stories of late have not been great, but they have definitely not made any sign of slowing down production or reigning in characters. Not that I think we will see a movie from either studio with Shark Girl or Gold Balls.

However, it is interesting to note that the Maximoff twins have recently discovered that Magneto isn't really their father, and they might be tied up with the High Evolutionary somehow instead. Not that they needed to do that, since they already had the rights to use them in the movies and have. but in the MCU they clearly can't be mutants, and the comics DO show an effort to make changes that coincide with MCU movies. So the movie may show them as more recent genetic experiments rather than inhuman or mutants.

[Man on Fire]

The only Marvel title left I'm reading is Adjectiveless X-Men With Jubilee In It and only because Jubilee Is In It and Jubilee is my favoritest of favourite character in anything ever.

She is going to be in new Runaways book, pick it up.

[Aotrs Commander]

She is going to be in new Runaways book, pick it up.

In addition to or instead of adjectiveless X-Men?

(As I have no local comic store, I don't tend to find these things out until after the fact, frequently...)




Then you need to excuse yourself from any mention of her on this thread. You are overtly bias, blatantly hostile to the topic at hand and a key character in mention therein. Jean is intrinsic in any discussion of Scott, and for good reason. That is not going to change.

This is the only mature response when such dislike is present for a character. I have the same dislike of Both Sara Lance and Felicity Smoak from Arrow. If they died yesterday I would cheer. But knowing this I do not jump on discussion of them - I am openly bias against them and I know it. Any commentary of them made by me would be questionable at best. As anything you say about Jean is for you. If you are so overtly hostile about her, by far my favorite character in the whole the marvel universe BTW, then say nothing. For nothing you say on the matter is of any value.

That was ferverently stated apathy rather than hatred (and perhaps, yes, a touch more ferverently than necessary (so sorry for that) - more because Soras and I rather disagree on continuity).

I'm afraid, however, I am allowed to voice my opinion on whatever character I choose, whether or not it meets with your approval; so long as I do it within a reasonable boundary of civility and, as importantly, within forum rules (letter and spirit.). (I say reasonable, since what I have to say about characters I actually dislike and/or hate (e.g Shiu'Ar/Gladiator/Saskue Uchiha/Pain/the villain from Korra season one I won't even dignify with a name) tends to be... more creatively acerbic.) If you believe me to have overstepped those bounds, then please do report it.

If my opinion is truly of no value to you, however, then y'know, just don't let the opinion of someone you will never meet on the internet bother you.

[t209]

However, it is interesting to note that the Maximoff twins have recently discovered that Magneto isn't really their father, and they might be tied up with the High Evolutionary somehow instead. Not that they needed to do that, since they already had the rights to use them in the movies and have. but in the MCU they clearly can't be mutants, and the comics DO show an effort to make changes that coincide with MCU movies. So the movie may show them as more recent genetic experiments rather than inhuman or mutants.
Speaking of Magneto not being their dad,
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/25/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-magneto-is-quicksilver-and-scarlet-witchs-dad-or-is-he/
This was retconned in later years.
I guess we lost two (half and ethnic) jewish super heroes.
edit: I am feeling that adjective X-Men is more like extension of Avengers vs. X-Men since Jean Grey School's X-Men are aligned with the Avengers, even they have Cannonball and Sunspot as full-time member.
Strangely, mutant members of Avengers didn't seem to be discriminated compared to others. The only anti-mutants they had was one time attack by Larry Trask's Sentinel, one of the victims of Sentinels in Days of the Future Past, and some (http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy132/airporthan/Avengers252-008_zps8966be06.jpg) protests (http://media.tumblr.com/b2c74e1cc289a2fdbec47f4f5d1e2d8a/tumblr_inline_njfw919hop1rr4ug7.png).

[Thrudd]

Speaking of Magneto not being their dad,
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/25/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-magneto-is-quicksilver-and-scarlet-witchs-dad-or-is-he/
This was retconned in later years.
I guess we lost two (half and ethnic) jewish super heroes.
edit: I am feeling that adjective X-Men is more like extension of Avengers vs. X-Men since Jean Grey School's X-Men are aligned with the Avengers, even they have Cannonball and Sunspot as full-time member.
Strangely, mutant members of Avengers didn't seem to be discriminated compared to others. The only anti-mutants they had was one time attack by Larry Trask's Sentinel, one of the victims of Sentinels in Days of the Future Past, and some (http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy132/airporthan/Avengers252-008_zps8966be06.jpg) protests (http://media.tumblr.com/b2c74e1cc289a2fdbec47f4f5d1e2d8a/tumblr_inline_njfw919hop1rr4ug7.png).

I wouldn't say they are aligned with avengers. Only that at one time they would have turned in Cyclops (although they've had a couple chances and ket him go). Cannonball and Sunspot never appear in any XMen titles anymore, only Avengers, they have never been associated with the Jean Grey school.

It is weird that mutants on the avengers don't get any anti mutant attention. Maybe it's because people don't perceive that they are living separately from everyone else doing secret mutant stuff. But that has always been a bit of a narrative hole in the marvel u, why some super powered people are ok but others are subject of racism. How would anyone know where someone's powers came from, unless you knew them?

[Metahuman1]

That isn't true. New mutant characters have been continually introduced in x-men titles from at least 2011 (generation hope) until now. There are two whole schools of them (well, only one school as of this month).

Also, fantastic four is still being published, a new title just started in 2014, and the characters have been continually appearing in other titles before that. Yes, the title is ending later this year. But I'm sure it won't be permanent.

I don't know where the conspiracy rumors come from, about marvel trying to undermine their own comics in order to affect the movies. It clearly isn't true, the comics department tries to capitalize on the popularity from any movie that comes out, regardless of the studio that made it. Now, you could argue that the xmen stories of late have not been great, but they have definitely not made any sign of slowing down production or reigning in characters. Not that I think we will see a movie from either studio with Shark Girl or Gold Balls.

However, it is interesting to note that the Maximoff twins have recently discovered that Magneto isn't really their father, and they might be tied up with the High Evolutionary somehow instead. Not that they needed to do that, since they already had the rights to use them in the movies and have. but in the MCU they clearly can't be mutants, and the comics DO show an effort to make changes that coincide with MCU movies. So the movie may show them as more recent genetic experiments rather than inhuman or mutants.

Really? Not what I've been hearing. FF and X-men are basically on the outs right now till Marvel get's film rights back to them cause they've worked out that it's more profitable to promote the stuff that's at least partially in house first and foremost, and the fact that Fox got to use Quick Silver at all was a thing they strongly disliked.


As for the whole not distinguishing between healing factor or not thing, yeah, fine, just saying I think they could stand a few odd exceptions here or there.

And I actually don't agree. He's got a long standing thing of being in top condition and by the time he existed as a character Smoking was long sense known to be bad for that. Though deciding he likes E-cigs is something I could see.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, I think he meant it as an idealistic student who wanted to live up to Xavier's dream.
The difference is, Captain America became a hero because he believed in what he believed in and that inspirational drive was there all along. Cyclops became the idealist because he was Xavier's student and a good little soldier. He learned Xavier's dream by rote and parroted it back for all this time because it's what he was taught, because the Professor was a nice and wise man and because it's what he was supposed to say. But he never really lived in the real world, and it was only ever really Professor X's dream.


You either die or hero or live long enough to be the villain sort of thing?
Well, you could look at it that way I suppose? But that's not really where I'm coming from. Less Batman and his own ideals inevitably leading to his downfall or the fickle public turning on him and more, well. Hmm.

The thing is, increasingly I think that professional wrestling has a lot to teach us about some things. Cyclops was never particularly popular. If I remember correctly, even following the original run wasn't it Beast and Iceman who escaped the hiatus and joined the Avengers? But if we ignore that little catch, I am reminded of Hulk Hogan more than anything (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1nbmux_hogan-turns-heel-the-birth-of-the-nwo_sport). White meat hero, say your prayers and eat your vitamins. Unflinching in this edgeless good guy routine for decades.

And then during an angle in which former WWF guys are portrayed as "attacking" the wrestling promotion that they had actually gone to work for, Hulk Hogan comes out to the ring as if to kick their asses in the name of truth, justice and the american way and he lays into... the audience. The eternal good guy turns heel and he tears down everything he'd previously stood for and the ring is practically buried in an avalanche of hurled trash. And that single shocking moment catapulted the WCW into a dominant position that even their own utter incompetence took a good number of years to squander.

Simply put, I think that Cyclops has the potential to make a great villain. I think the fact that Cyclops of all people could stoop so low makes for a great angle, and I can't honestly say I'd have expected this level of interest in him otherwise.


Everyone forgets that the retcon that brought Jean Grey back several years after Dark Phonenix... was that it was NEVER her.

Jean never killed an entire star system.
Jean never died.
She was sleeping at the bottom of Jamaica Bay the whole time.

The Phoenix Force took her form and personality while making a new body and threw Jean in a special pod to heal her radiation poisoning and years later it got to Reed Richards.

What's that this completely undermines what's possibly the greatest X-men storyline of all time and was more/less ignored by everyone and their brother beyond "hah hah Jean comes back from the dead every other issue" despite never having been dead because its too annoying to remember and basically a smarmy legal technicality argument? Too bad that's the story, pay more attention.

...

And people look at me funny when I do things like call continuity a disease that has killed comics.

Personally, I like to look at it this way;
The Pheonix really was Jean. But Jean was not the Pheonix.
It was a basically non-sentient energy force before that, it took on her persona, her memories, her identity, all of it completely. Jean Grey did those things, in those circumstances. But Jean Grey, the Jean Grey who was stashed in the pod in the bay didn't. She didn't do that. She might have, and we can never really know if she would have or if things would have ended differently.

If that makes any sense?

[LibraryOgre]

I think Cyclops is someone who got the raw end of the deal in order to make him more hip. At one point his character traits where..

Good Team Field Leader
Good boyfriend


Neither of these things were ever true. He was never either of these things.

[Thrudd]

Really? Not what I've been hearing. FF and X-men are basically on the outs right now till Marvel get's film rights back to them cause they've worked out that it's more profitable to promote the stuff that's at least partially in house first and foremost, and the fact that Fox got to use Quick Silver at all was a thing they strongly disliked.
.

No evidence of that in terms of publishing or number of titles. There are four ongoing x-men team titles, x-force, all new x-factor, wolverines, storm, magneto, nightcrawler, cyclops, never mind uncanny avengers which features many mutants, and probably more I am forgetting. Doesn't seem "on the outs" to me. There might be an argument for fantastic four, since their title is ending later this year. But runs do end sometimes, and the characters I am guessing will still be present in other titles.

[DiscipleofBob]

The difference is, Captain America became a hero because he believed in what he believed in and that inspirational drive was there all along. Cyclops became the idealist because he was Xavier's student and a good little soldier. He learned Xavier's dream by rote and parroted it back for all this time because it's what he was taught, because the Professor was a nice and wise man and because it's what he was supposed to say. But he never really lived in the real world, and it was only ever really Professor X's dream.

Wait. Are you actually trying to argue that Scott is more of a "soldier" than Captain America, super soldier?!. That Scott was somehow indoctrinated by Professor X as opposed to someone who grew up in 40s wartime propaganda? Granted it worked out because Nazis but still. Holding up to the ideals of a mentor doesn't make one as you put it "a good little soldier boy." Especially when said mentor goes too far and Scott doesn't hesitate to kick Professor X out. Even though he's basically his father at this point.

Honestly, I don't blame people for disliking Scott though. Aside from the odd gems like Whedon's run, his character has been derailed for decades.

[Airea]

Neither of these things were ever true. He was never either of these things.

Tell me more of this world you live in, for it is not my own and I am prone to wander into strange and unknown lands.

He was both. And if you really don't believe me I have the back copies I can photograph and post here. I'm all about citation.

[Kitten Champion]

Neither of these things were ever true. He was never either of these things.

That's one of the best parts of Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men, addressing how Scott was forcefully moulded into the role of heroic leader, loving boyfriend, etc. and really couldn't live up to those expectations. Only, at the end of the day, he really had nothing else. No identity or purpose beyond trying to fit into the Captain America archetype with the weight of the world on his shoulders even as he was perpetually falling short to what was demanded of him. Scott's not my favourite character by a wide margin, but most of his failings I think are understandable and make him much more relatable than the generic leader character he was conceived as.

So yeah, he can be a hypocrite and not have it be at odds with how the character has developed over the decades, because at the end of the day he's quite fallible.

[Airea]

I think saying he had nothing else is a gross overstatement(as listed above in this very thread he did a goodly number of things, check it out), but I do agree that the role he was given was a very heavy one. It was honestly the aspect of both his and Jean's characters that made me love them both. I was an oldest, personally taught by officers and professors as aunts and uncles, and very much pressured to perform to that level. Having characters that had to struggle with the same things was actually more then a little therapeutic. There were times I wanted to scream, they screamed for me. It was really nice.

This being said I am those things, in the same way that Scott is also those things. It gets into your bones and just stays there. You grow up, move things around - some things fit, some don't - you make it your own. It's a process, sure. But we all, in growing up, go through that process. That's life. But the building blocks don't change, they just...shift around, at most get added to. Best way I can put it. That he might stumble, yes. Have to get lost for a time, I'll buy that. But this?

This is too far, WAY too far. In times of crises you go back to your roots, your ethos as it were, and rebuild. How people work. His ethos isn't to put on a fake mustache and tie the nearest damsel in distress to the railway tracks.He's Scott Summer. Protegee of the Professor, stood toe to toe with Jean Grey is morality, balanced the fear of the outside with the fight for something better for the people he cared about. And he DID care about them, do not mistake that. We all struggle, but even struggle is something he has also over come - over, and over, and over. This fall is forced, fake, cheap and used to sell copy to fans more interested in yet another pointless gimmick then actually understand and follow a character. If they wanted a new villain they should have written on, not killed a hero and kept the name.

[Tiki Snakes]

Wait. Are you actually trying to argue that Scott is more of a "soldier" than Captain America, super soldier?!. That Scott was somehow indoctrinated by Professor X as opposed to someone who grew up in 40s wartime propaganda? Granted it worked out because Nazis but still. Holding up to the ideals of a mentor doesn't make one as you put it "a good little soldier boy." Especially when said mentor goes too far and Scott doesn't hesitate to kick Professor X out. Even though he's basically his father at this point.

Honestly, I don't blame people for disliking Scott though. Aside from the odd gems like Whedon's run, his character has been derailed for decades.

I can't say I was exactly trying to argue that as much as to differentiate between the two as inspirational beacons of hope and all that.

But you know what? I honestly think that on some level yeah, he is. Just because Cap took something called a "Super Soldier Syrum" doesn't mean he's best described as a Soldier, even if he did join up with the military during a war. I think if you look at their respective dynamics, Cyclops has often been much more genuinely Xavier's soldier than the Captain has been America's.

[Man on Fire]

In addition to or instead of adjectiveless X-Men?

(As I have no local comic store, I don't tend to find these things out until after the fact, frequently...)

In addition, multiversan sheningans allowed there to be two versions of the character. Adjectiveless by Chris Sims is going to feature "classic" Jubilee, while Runaways by Noelle Stevenson will have another version of her. I really want Runaways to sell well so if you can afford it, give it a try.

[Aotrs Commander]

In addition, multiversan sheningans allowed there to be two versions of the character. Adjectiveless by Chris Sims is going to feature "classic" Jubilee, while Runaways by Noelle Stevenson will have another version of her. I really want Runaways to sell well so if you can afford it, give it a try.

Any idea what issue or number from (and the specific comic title if it's not just "Runaways?" The problem is nowadays, I have to pre-order my comics on subscription over the internet - since my last local comic shop closed down - and there's a not a massive window to do so.

[themaque]

Tell me more of this world you live in, for it is not my own and I am prone to wander into strange and unknown lands.

He was both. And if you really don't believe me I have the back copies I can photograph and post here. I'm all about citation.

He might be able to back it personally as well. Any character written long enough by enough writers is going to look downright schizophrenic.

Scott was pretty damn cool
Scott was nothing but a jerk

Superman is angsty
Superman is hopeful

Plenty of comics to back both arguments.

[Man on Fire]

Any idea what issue or number from (and the specific comic title if it's not just "Runaways?" The problem is nowadays, I have to pre-order my comics on subscription over the internet - since my last local comic shop closed down - and there's a not a massive window to do so.

From the issue 1, she is a part of this new team, not just a cameo. As for name, it's officially titled just Runaways but I guess if you try to look for Runaways vol.4 (since it's 4th series named that way) or Runaways 2015 or Battleworld Runaways (since there is huge Battleworld logo above the title because Secret Wars), it will lead you to the same thing.

[Airea]

He might be able to back it personally as well. Any character written long enough by enough writers is going to look downright schizophrenic.

Scott was pretty damn cool
Scott was nothing but a jerk

Superman is angsty
Superman is hopeful

Plenty of comics to back both arguments.

He said he was never a hero and never a good boyfriend/husband. He was.

He isn't now, that I won't argue. Presently he's a horrible human being I want to stab, by himself a reason for me no to touch the current issues.

But he was. That is all.

[Aotrs Commander]

Welp, nothing there at all yet. Secret Wars #1 is a "must subscribe before May" though, so presumably it's well ahead of time.

I've put a note on the calendar, I'll check it in a month.



Looks like, though, we may all be S O L with this Secret Wars Battleworld thing, if they are actually genuinely going to destroy and hodge-podge together all their current universes, 'cos that could be the final death-knell. If it sticks, because these days, who actually knows. Guess we'll see, won't we?

So, Scott and/or Jean fans, depending how this pans out, you might get them back how you want them, I guess. One of the zones in this gubbins even says it is based on 1990s X-Men, so there's that.

I really dunno though.

[Man on Fire]

Thery have already confirmed there are books that won't be affected by the event. It's not a reboot, it's not going to stick, but I suspect some elements (A-Force maybe?) can carry over to the post-event Marvel Universe.
And I hope they'll use it to undo damage done to Nico with Arena and Undercover.


He might be able to back it personally as well. Any character written long enough by enough writers is going to look downright schizophrenic.

Scott was pretty damn cool
Scott was nothing but a jerk

Superman is angsty
Superman is hopeful

Plenty of comics to back both arguments.

This really reminds me of what Simon Spurrier said about continuity:

I mean... if you want to get really real about this stuff -- like, assume that all the continuity is 100% real and accurate and unchangeable, assume that your favorite heroes spend all day every day fighting, bleeding, getting smashed-up, seeing people die, saving lives, failing to save lives, having a unique and privileged view of the world, and yet still somehow manage to crack wise, have pool parties and seem like well-adjusted people -- then I'm afraid you're obligated to come to the conclusion that they're all absolutely and rabidly insane.

[Metahuman1]

I hoping now that Quesada is allegedly been kicked up stairs that Civil War, One More Day, One Moment In Time, Sin's Past, Avengers Arena and Under Cover, Avengers vs. X-men, M-day and a number of there other less savory items will be undone.


If that actually happens, I will stop supporting mediocre DC titles, and I will start buying up Marvel books again.



Mind, I don't believe that Quesada's promotion was anything other then a straight up reward for a moment, but I'd we willing to give them the chance to fix it. (And no, fixing the spider-man canon does NOT mean undoing everything since OMD. Leave his identity secret, sure, fine. Aunt May can come back or not, I can be alright either way if it's handled reasonably well. And most of the rest of the developments, getting his own business together and the like, can stay. (And apart form dating Quesada's daughter, none of that has to go away if he had a wedding ring.)

[Airea]

If Quesada's work could be undone I'd be back in two seconds, less. Far less. DC isn't making anything worth reading any more with Didio and Lee right now.

[Metahuman1]

Worlds Finest and Batgirl are still good, so is Earth 2. Aquaman, Supergirl and Wonder Woman still have there moments. (An argument could be made for Batman.)

But yeah, get these are arguably 1-2 other things undone, I'd happily just go back to Marvel and tell DC "You had me, you lost me for the most part."

[t209]

I hoping now that Quesada is allegedly been kicked up stairs that Civil War, One More Day, One Moment In Time, Sin's Past, Avengers Arena and Under Cover, Avengers vs. X-men, M-day and a number of there other less savory items will be undone.
I am feeling that all of these began with Bendis' Avengers Disassembled. Now I feel kinda have negative opinion on Scarlet Witch, which it made Avengers* look like Anti-Mutants by having a mutant equivalent of race traitor on the team.
I wonder how the other Scarlet Witches from various universes will react to her, especially when she novemitated (9 out of 10) the mutants.
*Along with Sentinels, debacle in Avengers vs X-Men, and various events that X-Men needed the help.

[Man on Fire]

Undoing or ignoring bad stories is sometimes simply not enough - as Simon Spurrier had said in the same interview I quoted before: even if nobody ever again refferences or acknowledges the fact he potrayed Psylocke as addicted to killing*, it is still part of character's mythological make-up and can influence how people intepretend her stories from now on, if they choose to. What we need is not undoing the bad stories as much as undoing the damage they did to the characters. Sor example, Children's Crusade was this for Wanda, revealing her behavion in Dissassembled and House of M was caused by Doctor Doom influencing her mind, the problem is that later writers like Rick Remender cannot acknowledge that and just shut up about whole M-Day thing.

* - not that it was bad, personally I liked it and it fit the whole "tearing apart the very idea of black ops anti-hero team" theme Spurrier was doing.

[Metahuman1]

No, but it's as good as were ever gonna get.

Mind also that I don't think there gonna do it because I don't think Quesada actually lost jack squat in terms of ability to dictate things to the comics department and that the promotion was just a straight up bonus for him.





And an argument could be made for that. But, see, here's the thing. Who was editor in Chief at the time most if not all of those happened? That's right, good old Joe. And he could have said one word, one, freaking, word, and NONE of those story's would have happened. So, no, he's at fault, and he get's to swallow the lions share of the blame. And after One More Day, Sin's Past and One Moment In Time, he does NOT get to play the "I'm not suppose to take over form the writers." card.

[Man on Fire]

Arena and Undercover, two books I want undone, were long after Quesada was kicked upstairs. If anything I have to thank him because early in his career he put on emphasis on trying new titles and more C-Listers which allowed BKV to create Runaways. But then I like Runaways and hate Spider-Man, so I'm not objective.

By the way, he has a tumblr (http://joequesada.tumblr.com/).

[Airea]

It's the thing to do, isn't it? Take beloved and heroic things and destroy them. To make them "interesting."


Guess it easier then bothering to build new things, and you get readers with it's "edgy" vibe or some nonsense like that without having to create anything remotely new.

Which tells me what I already knew.

Writers are freakin' lazy.

[t209]

So Was Cyclops Right?
I hope the new one didn't believe in exterminating humans since I have a mixed reaction to his new attitude. Even then, I have kinda negative feeling on supremacist ideas in both real life and fiction.
Even without the bad stories, the lack of Avengers in X-Men stories kinda justify his point due to making the former seem like a group of selfish people and race traitors who are happy enough to see them exterminated (except for a few occasion involving Sentinels and Magneto).
http://magickmaker.deviantart.com/art/Avengers-The-Mutant-Problem-369145738

[Airea]

Or he can put on his big boy panties and realize that mutants make up 3% of the population and there are other things to worry about.

No, sorry, that would be old Scott. This one honestly believes the world is literally all about him. Because he needs professional help.

But that's okay because he's more *interesting* as a genocidal maniac.

[LibraryOgre]

Tell me more of this world you live in, for it is not my own and I am prone to wander into strange and unknown lands.

He was both. And if you really don't believe me I have the back copies I can photograph and post here. I'm all about citation.

Let's talk about the "good boyfriend and husband" aspect, hmm?

Scott Summers, immediately after the death of his long-time girlfriend, married someone who looked exactly like her. He got her pregnant, but when his original girlfriend shows up, he dumped his wife, ignored his son, and ran off with his girlfriend. After killing his erstwhile wife (to be fair, she HAD become a supervillain), he was a diffident father to his son, constantly throwing him into mortal danger, until such time as he screwed up SO BADLY that he had to send his son into the future to save him. When he finally DOES marry the girl he's caused all these problems for, he gets into an affair with Emma Frost... who he eventually tries to murder, because she's the same kind of demigod his dream girl was.

The only safe way to be in a relationship with Scott Summers is from a great distance, preferably measured in decades.

[t209]

Let's talk about the "good boyfriend and husband" aspect, hmm?

Scott Summers, immediately after the death of his long-time girlfriend, married someone who looked exactly like her. He got her pregnant, but when his original girlfriend shows up, he dumped his wife, ignored his son, and ran off with his girlfriend. After killing his erstwhile wife (to be fair, she HAD become a supervillain), he was a diffident father to his son, constantly throwing him into mortal danger, until such time as he screwed up SO BADLY that he had to send his son into the future to save him. When he finally DOES marry the girl he's caused all these problems for, he gets into an affair with Emma Frost... who he eventually tries to murder, because she's the same kind of demigod his dream girl was.
Ummm, didn't he try to go back after meeting Jean Grey but his clone wife "disappeared" from sight?

[Airea]

He was a good boyfriend. Then bad writers got involved. Sadly this happens all too often, but he was a good boyfriend once.

[LibraryOgre]

He was a good boyfriend. Then bad writers got involved. Sadly this happens all too often, but he was a good boyfriend once.

When? I mean, even when he was with Jean, before Phoenix and Maddie and all that, he was constantly jealous, controlling, and distrustful of her... especially once Logan showed up.

http://doctordisaster.tumblr.com/post/12328429710/cyclops-the-worst-leader-an-interview

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mccarricksean/x-reasons-why-cyclops-is-everyones-least-favo-fjmu#.wcGY9B3xJ


Let's play a game... Raise your hand if you've never gone through a stage that others characterized as "mainly super villain". Your hand's up, Scott. Are you absolutely sure it should be?

[Aotrs Commander]

That first one was harsh... but damn me if I didn't find it far too funny!

(And I actually would like to see if they did something similiar with other characters...!)



The second one...

Really? They REALLY had him kill Prof X? Prof X is dead AGAIN? I thought he'd barely just come back to life fromt he time Bishop killed him! And sersiouly, he's been killed twice now by his own X-Men?! (That's actually pretty bloddy hilarious.)

Let it be clear - while I liked Cyclops-with-a-bit-of-ruthless-in-him, by the time that last round of Phoenix nonsense started, he'd gone WAY off the rails into fragging stupid. Avengers vrs X-Men was the point I actually drew the line altogether and said "right, okay guys, after twenty years, I'm basically done."

Yeah, sorry Cyclops fans; that was pretty fracking [expletive]-y of them and in no way do I think he deserved that level of treatment.

[DiscipleofBob]

Regarding Emma Frost, there are a few details that seem to be left out...

Scott's relationship with Jean was on the rocks after he was briefly possessed by Apocalypse. So he saw Emma for therapy. Not "therapy *wink wink nudge nudge*". Actual therapy.

Emma in turn took advantage and while Scott thought he was just having fantasies of Jean, Emma disguised herself and tricked Scott into a purely mental affair. Jean discovered this, initially thought Scott was cheating on her, and confronted him. Scott told her to read his mind and she then found out that they'd never had relations. And that it was all Emma's plan to screw with them.

Then, in one of the dumbest things comic book writers ever put on paper, Jean died again and somehow viewed a future where Scott never got over the loss of Jean and how it was terrible, so with her dying will, FORCED Scott to get over her and literally make out with Emma on Jean's grave.

When I say Scott's relationship with Emma is forced, I don't just mean badly written.

[Man on Fire]

On the other hand, a lot of good stuff came from getting Scott and Emma together and I'd say both benefit from this overall.

[themaque]

And just because it's buging me and what are we but Pedantic nerds...


The 2nd link Reason #2:

It show's Cyclops being a jerk yes, but specifically in just two segments it shows me that

1) Cyclops understands his teammates
2) He is willing to be a jerk to help them.

Wolverine is hurt and in pain. He's wallowing in it. It says if he doesn't snap out of it, he may just stay that way. "For Wolverine, that's a fate worse than death".

So what does Scott do? Looks to me he gives him a target.

[Ranxerox]

And just because it's buging me and what are we but Pedantic nerds...


The 2nd link Reason #2:

It show's Cyclops being a jerk yes, but specifically in just two segments it shows me that

1) Cyclops understands his teammates
2) He is willing to be a jerk to help them.

Wolverine is hurt and in pain. He's wallowing in it. It says if he doesn't snap out of it, he may just stay that way. "For Wolverine, that's a fate worse than death".

So what does Scott do? Looks to me he gives him a target.

That is exactly what he did, and a page or two later Logan thanked him for it. Yep, quite the rotten leader that Summer boy.

[Tyrant]

Or he can put on his big boy panties and realize that mutants make up 3% of the population and there are other things to worry about.
I'm pretty sure the other 97% don't have to worry about everyone and their brother apparently having an army of deathbots designed to specifically target their species and an itchy trigger finger coupled with essentially every government and other heroes deciding to just look the other way no matter how many casualties get piled on. I think at this point it has been proven repeatedly that seemingly everyone really is out to get them and if they don't watch out for themselves no one else is going to. Cyclops taking a more proactive stance is him seeing reality for what it is in Marvel.

But that's okay because he's more *interesting* as a genocidal maniac.
I'm a little behind in my X-Men, but can you elaborate on the genocidal maniac part? Last I saw he seemed to be somewhat encouraged by his human supporters and hadn't gone all Magneto.

[DiscipleofBob]

Let's talk about the "good boyfriend and husband" aspect, hmm?

Scott Summers, immediately after the death of his long-time girlfriend, married someone who looked exactly like her. He got her pregnant, but when his original girlfriend shows up, he dumped his wife, ignored his son, and ran off with his girlfriend. After killing his erstwhile wife (to be fair, she HAD become a supervillain), he was a diffident father to his son, constantly throwing him into mortal danger, until such time as he screwed up SO BADLY that he had to send his son into the future to save him. When he finally DOES marry the girl he's caused all these problems for, he gets into an affair with Emma Frost... who he eventually tries to murder, because she's the same kind of demigod his dream girl was.

The only safe way to be in a relationship with Scott Summers is from a great distance, preferably measured in decades.

Can we please stop blaming Scott for a lifetime of other people screwing him over, both in and out of universe. Between bad writers not knowing how to write him and a series of villains who seem literally created just to screw with him.

Jean died (the first time). Scott tried to move on, as people who've lost people they love occasionally try to do. "Immediately" isn't accurate. Comic writers haven't ever been good at accurately convey the passage of time. He found someone who happened to look just like her.

Madeline was actually a clone of Jean created by Mr. Sinister deliberately to get close to Scott and exploit his bloodline. She and the entire situation were created just to manipulate Scott. When Jean came back to life, Scott went back to her. Sorry, but if it's that or stay in a fake marriage with a clone, I'm not going to blame Scott for going back to his actual love.

So in terms of who we have directly manipulating Scott we have...

Sinister engineering a clone of Jean to seduce Scott...
Apocalypse possessing him...
Emma mind-raping him...
And being possessed by the Phoenix Force.

That's for starters. That's not even including the possibility of Professor X manipulating him as well.

Blaming Scott for all that is as ignorant as calling Hank Pym a wifebeater for accidentally hitting Janet once while mentally unstable, or blaming Peter Parker for making a deal with the devil to erase his marriage.

When bad writers get ahold of good characters, we don't blame the characters, we blame the writers who don't know what they're doing.

[t209]

I'm pretty sure the other 97% don't have to worry about everyone and their brother apparently having an army of deathbots designed to specifically target their species and an itchy trigger finger coupled with essentially every government and other heroes deciding to just look the other way no matter how many casualties get piled on. I think at this point it has been proven repeatedly that seemingly everyone really is out to get them and if they don't watch out for themselves no one else is going to. Cyclops taking a more proactive stance is him seeing reality for what it is in Marvel.

I'm a little behind in my X-Men, but can you elaborate on the genocidal maniac part? Last I saw he seemed to be somewhat encouraged by his human supporters and hadn't gone all Magneto.
To be fair, some said that he's a genocidist (pretty stupid since he had human supporters) but other said that he's a militant civil rights activist. And Avengers along with mutant "race traitors" seem to be very selfish and racist towards mutants (even before AvX debacle, they don't seem to be present in when Sentinels attack the mutants until one of them attack two of their members or every anti-mutant pogroms that would be seen by everyone). Plus, there could be potential of Captain America chewing out Senator Kelly or Bolivar Trask over Sentinel program. Not to mention, Tony Stark (an executive who have first tasted the negative effects of military-industrial complex) and Bruce Banner (a scientist/misjudged monster who was persecuted by the government) being horrified by the idea.
I don't know but Canada and Japan seem to be lenient about Mutant persecution. Then again, having a mutant as a mob boss (Silver Samurai) and a relative of powerful family (Sunfire) might seem to influence them.

[LibraryOgre]

When bad writers get ahold of good characters, we don't blame the characters, we blame the writers who don't know what they're doing.

Define Scott Summers' existence outside that as decided by the writers.

He doesn't have an independent existence; this isn't a biased biography of a real person we're looking at. What writers write is the sum of his existence, and that includes a large degree of dickishness to every woman in his life.

[DiscipleofBob]

Define Scott Summers' existence outside that as decided by the writers.

He doesn't have an independent existence; this isn't a biased biography of a real person we're looking at. What writers write is the sum of his existence, and that includes a large degree of dickishness to every woman in his life.

Then you need to hold the same standard for every character in fiction by every writer.

Peter Parker made a deal with the devil to sell his marriage and unborn daughter to save his dying elderly aunt.
Bruce Wayne kidnapped an 8-year old after his parents were murdered and forced him to eat rats to survive so he could indoctrinate the boy into becoming Robin.
All those Superdickery covers? Completely on Superman.
Should we go on and list every single time a comic book character has done something stupid because a bad writer got ahold of them?

Pretty much every comic book superhero or cartoon character you can think of is racist as hell thanks to some comic books

You then have to take into account, for example, everything on this page for starters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CharacterDerailment/ComicBooks) when determining the value of any character.

[t209]

Well, as far as Mutant persecution, Japan and Canada are two countries that actually treated them better. And US-centric perspective seem to make it that it's the only country who hated Mutants, except for angry mob and pre-Magneto Genosha. Then again, Japan's mutants Silver Samurai was a mob boss and Sunfire is a member of influential family. Not to mention that Alpha Flight was government organization.

[Metahuman1]

Honestly, if Cyclops REALLY wanted to say "The hell with this." there was a better way. The X-men HAVE money and a number of interesting resources, including high caliber telepaths. It would NOT have been hard to contact Steven Strange and say "We want to cut you a simple deal. We give you X, you set us up with a new land mass and defenses that no one short of Thor or Dr. Doom on this plane of existence can get past. And we want a spell on the planet that will allow anyone who's a mutant to port over there at will, but no one else with out a very specific invite form someone we recognize as having authority to do so.".

Boom, mutants have there own country and there's not squat any government that doesn't like it can do about it. Oh, what's that, Steven Strange won't do it?

Well, Go make the pitch at Reed Richards in a way that will get him to say he couldn't, and then make the pitch to Dr. Doom, showing him the video, and just tack on that they want his word he won't screw with them or mutants in exchange for Assurances that Mutants from Latveria that go there will be will treated, and that they'll spam Youtube with the video of Richards saying he can't and doom saying yes and doing it.

Now, just get Thor to agree to remain neutral and to keep Asguardians Neutral in the matter.


Congrats, no need for Genocide and Mutants are safe and taken care of and if Trask or Kelly or who-ever doesn't like it they can go cry a river about it cause there's not jack they can do physically, and if given some time, they can even work it out to were they will be a country, recognized by the United Nations, and that there is no way the US or anyone else can do anything with out it being considered an aggressive act of War. And while Trask or Kelly or Someone like General Ross might be willing to run that risk, It's unlikely that they'd do more then piss this new nation off enough for them to do whatever they needed to do to shut the attacks down, repeatedly. To the point they'd have to stop for PR and cost reasons.

So, no, this is stupid.

Actually, hell, take it a step further, when you talk to Strange or Doom, you want a Moon in the Solar system Terraformed to sustain life like Earth does, and Mutants to be able to teleport there form earth at will. Still trivial for ether character, and it just makes it that much Harder for Earth to Justify going after them, since now they can hit up the likes of the Guardians of the Galaxy, Asgard and the Nova Corps for intersession and protection form hostility's from earth on the grounds that "Were not attacking them, we just want to be able to live in our own home peacefully, and for our people, whom this world has made plane it does not like, to be able to safely come here to do the same.". I find it unlikely anyone's gonna be able to argue that to anything at a cosmic scale as a bad thing. Hell, they could even theoretically take it up first with the Living Tribunal in a per-emptive fashion and have it ruled that Earths leaders don't HAVE the right to oppose or object to this nor to interfere with it.


Boom, problem solved, and now you get to tell cool stories about space faring super beings on a world were EVERYONE has wildly different super powers.

[t209]

Honestly, if Cyclops REALLY wanted to say "The hell with this." there was a better way. The X-men HAVE money and a number of interesting resources, including high caliber telepaths. It would NOT have been hard to contact Steven Strange and say "We want to cut you a simple deal. We give you X, you set us up with a new land mass and defenses that no one short of Thor or Dr. Doom on this plane of existence can get past. And we want a spell on the planet that will allow anyone who's a mutant to port over there at will, but no one else with out a very specific invite form someone we recognize as having authority to do so.".

Boom, mutants have there own country and there's not squat any government that doesn't like it can do about it. Oh, what's that, Steven Strange won't do it?

Well, Go make the pitch at Reed Richards in a way that will get him to say he couldn't, and then make the pitch to Dr. Doom, showing him the video, and just tack on that they want his word he won't screw with them or mutants in exchange for Assurances that Mutants from Latveria that go there will be will treated, and that they'll spam Youtube with the video of Richards saying he can't and doom saying yes and doing it.

Now, just get Thor to agree to remain neutral and to keep Asguardians Neutral in the matter.


Congrats, no need for Genocide and Mutants are safe and taken care of and if Trask or Kelly or who-ever doesn't like it they can go cry a river about it cause there's not jack they can do physically, and if given some time, they can even work it out to were they will be a country, recognized by the United Nations, and that there is no way the US or anyone else can do anything with out it being considered an aggressive act of War. And while Trask or Kelly or Someone like General Ross might be willing to run that risk, It's unlikely that they'd do more then piss this new nation off enough for them to do whatever they needed to do to shut the attacks down, repeatedly. To the point they'd have to stop for PR and cost reasons.

So, no, this is stupid.

Actually, hell, take it a step further, when you talk to Strange or Doom, you want a Moon in the Solar system Terraformed to sustain life like Earth does, and Mutants to be able to teleport there form earth at will. Still trivial for ether character, and it just makes it that much Harder for Earth to Justify going after them, since now they can hit up the likes of the Guardians of the Galaxy, Asgard and the Nova Corps for intersession and protection form hostility's from earth on the grounds that "Were not attacking them, we just want to be able to live in our own home peacefully, and for our people, whom this world has made plane it does not like, to be able to safely come here to do the same.". I find it unlikely anyone's gonna be able to argue that to anything at a cosmic scale as a bad thing. Hell, they could even theoretically take it up first with the Living Tribunal in a per-emptive fashion and have it ruled that Earths leaders don't HAVE the right to oppose or object to this nor to interfere with it.


Boom, problem solved, and now you get to tell cool stories about space faring super beings on a world were EVERYONE has wildly different super powers.
Or just like status quo of many comics, entire new continent sank or destroyed due to some Cthulhu magic.
Did the Cyclops really wanted genocide? I thought he wanted to create a populace that can defend themselves rather than outright supremacist. If that so, then it just completely changed by opinion on Cyclops (to be fair, I only know him on X-Men Evolution).
That and...When did Avengers became popular? I think it had something to do with this.

[Logic]

Define Scott Summers' existence outside that as decided by the writers.

He doesn't have an independent existence; this isn't a biased biography of a real person we're looking at. What writers write is the sum of his existence, and that includes a large degree of dickishness to every woman in his life.

I really want to disagree (Cyclops was my favorite character from the moment the '92 cartoon introduced me to X-Men) but unfortunately, I am not eloquent enough to formulate a proper defense of him.

However, the majority of other characters have done some arguably worse things and their reputation is not tarnished in the slightest*.

*Hank Pym, Moon Knight and Frank Castle are notable exceptions.

[Tyrant]

Honestly, if Cyclops REALLY wanted to say "The hell with this." there was a better way. The X-men HAVE money and a number of interesting resources, including high caliber telepaths. It would NOT have been hard to contact Steven Strange and say "We want to cut you a simple deal. We give you X, you set us up with a new land mass and defenses that no one short of Thor or Dr. Doom on this plane of existence can get past. And we want a spell on the planet that will allow anyone who's a mutant to port over there at will, but no one else with out a very specific invite form someone we recognize as having authority to do so.".

Boom, mutants have there own country and there's not squat any government that doesn't like it can do about it. Oh, what's that, Steven Strange won't do it?

Well, Go make the pitch at Reed Richards in a way that will get him to say he couldn't, and then make the pitch to Dr. Doom, showing him the video, and just tack on that they want his word he won't screw with them or mutants in exchange for Assurances that Mutants from Latveria that go there will be will treated, and that they'll spam Youtube with the video of Richards saying he can't and doom saying yes and doing it.

Now, just get Thor to agree to remain neutral and to keep Asguardians Neutral in the matter.


Congrats, no need for Genocide and Mutants are safe and taken care of and if Trask or Kelly or who-ever doesn't like it they can go cry a river about it cause there's not jack they can do physically, and if given some time, they can even work it out to were they will be a country, recognized by the United Nations, and that there is no way the US or anyone else can do anything with out it being considered an aggressive act of War. And while Trask or Kelly or Someone like General Ross might be willing to run that risk, It's unlikely that they'd do more then piss this new nation off enough for them to do whatever they needed to do to shut the attacks down, repeatedly. To the point they'd have to stop for PR and cost reasons.

So, no, this is stupid.

Actually, hell, take it a step further, when you talk to Strange or Doom, you want a Moon in the Solar system Terraformed to sustain life like Earth does, and Mutants to be able to teleport there form earth at will. Still trivial for ether character, and it just makes it that much Harder for Earth to Justify going after them, since now they can hit up the likes of the Guardians of the Galaxy, Asgard and the Nova Corps for intersession and protection form hostility's from earth on the grounds that "Were not attacking them, we just want to be able to live in our own home peacefully, and for our people, whom this world has made plane it does not like, to be able to safely come here to do the same.". I find it unlikely anyone's gonna be able to argue that to anything at a cosmic scale as a bad thing. Hell, they could even theoretically take it up first with the Living Tribunal in a per-emptive fashion and have it ruled that Earths leaders don't HAVE the right to oppose or object to this nor to interfere with it.


Boom, problem solved, and now you get to tell cool stories about space faring super beings on a world were EVERYONE has wildly different super powers.
I'm not going to say I disagree with you in theory. However, I think you are having an issue with the general structure of Marvel and DC comics. If we were to approach virtually any other comic book problem in the way you are here, they can all be solved with trivial ease by beings who have colossal power and the will to use it. This isn't just a Cyclops or X-Men issue, this is a comic book issue. So, we can either nit pick how this or that character could possibly solve everyone's problems or we can accept that there is a reason that they don't and try to enjoy the story. There are rather large logical gaps in both universes that if one wants to have any hope of enjoying them they just have to ignore.

-How has Kang not crushed everyone he wants to at this point? He can attack them at literally any point in time and space with weaponry that is considerably beyond anything they would have.

-Doom has won and conquered the world before and just decided he was bored so he undid it, only to continually try to do it or something close to it again. Really?

-Xavier could've solved all kinds of mutant problems by using his powers yet he's too principled to do that. At the same time he has no problem mind wiping his own students and enslaving a sentient being. Yes, truly a principled paragon of virtue that would never do the easy thing and mind wipe people like Stryker (or Magneto) that are a clear threat that will never change and never stop.

-Thanos literally became God, absolute master over all that is, and somehow lost.

-The rampant time travel has somehow not broken the time-space continuum yet.

-With clones, shape shifters, robots, LMDs, and telepaths running around everywhere, how is everyone in Marvel not destructively paranoid?

-How is it everyone seems to have an army of Sentinels?

-Despite having numerous individuals who have vast arrays of advanced (or futuristic or alien) technology, Marvel Earth is still basically like ours. Really?

-Why doesn't Spider-Man make some money off of his inventions (bettering his own life along with those around him), hire a PR firm, and sue Jameson into oblivion?

These are just the tip of the iceberg. Could Cyclops and the X-Men do those things, probably. They could probably just have the Starjammers get them a largish ship to take them off Earth and to any one of the alien empires that would welcome super powered being with open arms and promises of freedom and protection. But that would be boring. So, despite it seeming quite illogical, we have to assume there is a reason these things don't happen. Otherwise, the whole thing unravels.

I'm not saying I don't share your opinion on things like this. I do look at comics sometimes and shake my head at the nature of the stories. But, if I like more than I dislike I have generally found it a waste of time and energy to nit pick things to death. Other people obviously feel differently and that's their right.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Minor correction there Tyrant, the rampant time-travel (specifically during the Age of Ultron comic-book storyline) was the trigger for the incursions which lead to quite a few "Earths" being destroyed and in turn that leads into Secret Wars/Battleworlds.

[Tyrant]

Minor correction there Tyrant, the rampant time-travel (specifically during the Age of Ultron comic-book storyline) was the trigger for the incursions which lead to quite a few "Earths" being destroyed and in turn that leads into Secret Wars/Battleworlds.
Well it's nice they are at least paying lip service to it. Like I said though, I just try to not think about it.

[Metahuman1]

I'd also heart they'd done a storyline were Kang basically got depowered by one of the cosmic entity's because all the time travel WAS about to destroy the space time continuum.

That makes perfect sense for Doom, it's just part of his personality. (Also, I'm pretty sure Emperor Doom was an else worlds story wasn't it? Cause unless I'm misremembering it, that means it was a different canon.)

Thanos didn't become God. The One Above All (And possibly the Living Tribunal.) were still more powerful then he was. Also, the first time he acted he was using the Cosmic Cube and that ended up being less powerful then the Infinity Gauntlet and that was when he lost. Second time around with the Gauntlet he succeeded in his goal of wiping out half of all sentient life in the universe. It just didn't stick cause Death didn't like his little gift and the whole thing was to get death to date him.

For Decades, Xavier didn't. It was only a more recent decision that was made because having good guys and hope and morality is boring and we want darker and edgier and Grittier. Just like with Cyclops.

Kang has won before, but he's also had near eternal beings that could give gods and lovecraftian horrors a hell of a run for there money butt in before and reverse that victory.

The same way there now with real world uber-servalance and drone strike capability's.

The same way they always have SOMETHING they can use to fight the hero to give them an advantage. Krypotine, Sentinels, always something.

This one I'll give you.

My general understanding is he's using his inventions to make money and run his own company now. (I can't verify cause I haven't bought a Spiderman Comic since One More Day.) And that it didn't sue cause he'd still have to unmask to sue him, and we know that's a no go for him. It probably also helps that prior to that Jamison had the whole freedom of speech/the press bull to hide behind like any sleaze ball in the media, and now he's gotten elected Mayor of New York and has the city's entire resources to expend going after spiderman, which he's doing and would be a pair of interesting developments if Peter Parker didn't cut deals with Satan.





That's, 1 out of 10 points there. Yeah.



And no, it wouldn't be boring, it would be a tone shift form what ever the hell the X-men were before this all started to a Space Opera set up. It would be an awesome change of pace and have room for literally infinite staying power if set up right initially. I don't want every single thing to make perfect sense. I want the writers to give a damn and put forth some actual effort, which there not at the moment because darker and edgier and grittier.

And yes, I do have a problem with the way both are being run based on the fact that the writers keep making crap like this Canon and the fact that DC undid a generally far better Canon for the current one, and that Marvel outright refuses to undo things like Civil War and One More Day. (And no, having the president your office by and large supported getting elected come in after the president your office by and large wrote 8 years of diatribes about and sign an executive order to suspend the act is not fixing it. That's setting it up so you can throw out political propaganda and every time you dislike someone in the real world who get's elected you can have them, in your universe, bring it back and go full Nazi, or have a thinly veiled Expy that's all but an exact duplicate of them do it if you fear being sued. If the law had been completely obliterated, maybe, but just a suspension by executive order that's one sentence away from being undone at any time? Nope. Particularly since there conveniently gonna have a second Civil War arc running next year to co-inside with the election cycle.)

[t209]

My general understanding is he's using his inventions to make money and run his own company now. (I can't verify cause I haven't bought a Spiderman Comic since One More Day.) And that it didn't sue cause he'd still have to unmask to sue him, and we know that's a no go for him. It probably also helps that prior to that Jamison had the whole freedom of speech/the press bull to hide behind like any sleaze ball in the media, and now he's gotten elected Mayor of New York and has the city's entire resources to expend going after spiderman, which he's doing and would be a pair of interesting developments if Peter Parker didn't cut deals with Satan.
Well, that and the terrible Superior Spiderman (which ironically should be called "Doc Ock: "Superior" Spiderman, but Horrible Human being". And he's dating with a dwarf. At least Doctor Octavius did something useful.

[Metahuman1]

Superiors STILL running?! I though it ended awhile ago now and peter running a company was now his own thing.


Wow. That sucks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Nah, Peter isn't dating Ana Marie, she was Otto's girlfriend.... and maybe fiance, can't recall exactly. And Superior Spider man ended a few months back, but he is a central figure in the Spider-verse event, he is the one who started gathering the other Spiders.

[t209]

Nah, Peter isn't dating Ana Marie, she was Otto's girlfriend.... and maybe fiance, can't recall exactly. And Superior Spider man ended a few months back, but he is a central figure in the Spider-verse event, he is the one who started gathering the other Spiders.
Well, since that was when Otto was in Pete's body, now that sucks even more.
I don't care about "diversity" and "breaking away from clinche". Peter Parker and MJ should be repopulating Parker line, which should have been done before One More Day.
to MetaHuman: I said Otto was behind all this, not saying the comic line is still running.

[themaque]

Superiors STILL running?! I though it ended awhile ago now and peter running a company was now his own thing.


Wow. That sucks.

Actually, I really enjoyed the Superior Spider-man. I know I know it sounds stupid. But after reading it, I thought it was a fresh take on how Peter handled things, and how someone else would do in the same situation.

I kind of wish we could have kept Otto in another body or something. But we ALREADY have a Scarlet Spider for the Evil Spider-man Clone. I liked how he was developing with a combination of Otto's practicality with Peter's Conscience.

Scarlet Spider has been hit or miss thus far. But I actually enjoyed the Wolverine cameo. "What are you? Evil clone of Spider-man?" "uhm... yes actually, I am."

[Tyrant]

Before I go into my response, I hope you realize that was just the random things that popped into my head at that moment. I am quite sure there are pages of such things. And that I said that I tentatively agree with you from a logic standpoint. My point was that nitpicking and not applying comic book logic lead to the whole thing falling apart. Response to Metahuman1:
I'd also heart they'd done a storyline were Kang basically got depowered by one of the cosmic entity's because all the time travel WAS about to destroy the space time continuum.
I'm not sure how that refutes my point.
That makes perfect sense for Doom, it's just part of his personality. (Also, I'm pretty sure Emperor Doom was an else worlds story wasn't it? Cause unless I'm misremembering it, that means it was a different canon.)
Doom is an ego maniac. They don't just go "well, I guess I will give up all this power and do it all over again" He would look for a bigger prize.
Thanos didn't become God. The One Above All (And possibly the Living Tribunal.) were still more powerful then he was. Also, the first time he acted he was using the Cosmic Cube and that ended up being less powerful then the Infinity Gauntlet and that was when he lost. Second time around with the Gauntlet he succeeded in his goal of wiping out half of all sentient life in the universe. It just didn't stick cause Death didn't like his little gift and the whole thing was to get death to date him.
I'm talking about the Gauntlet. He beat everyone including Eternity. He lost because bad guys have to lose, not for any remotely logical story reason. The possibility of losing the Gauntlet was already revealed to him with the Surfer's attack. Why would he not fuse the gems to his very essence/soul so he could never be separated from their power? Instead he does something that left his body vulnerable. Pretty dumb move for one of the smartest beings in the universe. I also find it funny that in another thread you call the end of Man of Steel contrived and yet defend this.
For Decades, Xavier didn't. It was only a more recent decision that was made because having good guys and hope and morality is boring and we want darker and edgier and Grittier. Just like with Cyclops.
And yet post-grit Xavier who is clearly willing to cross some lines still doesn't do these things. Except to threaten to do them to Cyclops when he was possessed by the Phoenix where the only possible outcome was Cyclops curb stomping him.
Kang has won before, but he's also had near eternal beings that could give gods and lovecraftian horrors a hell of a run for there money butt in before and reverse that victory.
So, just like with Thanos, the logical victory can't occur because it's a comic book so the writer has to pull something out of their nether regions. I'm at a loss for how you defend publisher fiat on one hand and complain about it on the other.
The same way there now with real world uber-servalance and drone strike capability's.
I think you either greatly overestimate the paranoia of modern people or greatly underestimate how much of a living hell it would be to live in Marvel. This isn't spying on people because they might be doing something that you have an issue with. That isn't even paranoia in most cases. I'm talking about not being able to trust that the person you are dealing with at any given moment is actually who they appear to be. They could be a Skrull, a robot, a clone, a shape shifter, etc. For all you know, you could be a clone with false memories. You can't even trust reality because it could all just be a telepath screwing with you. Modern world paranoia would be nirvana compared to that. Look how up in arms people are about your equivalent. Now look at Marvel where no one seems at all bothered that they can't trust that anything they are experiencing at any given moment is actually what it appears to be on any level. There's a real disconnect there.
The same way they always have SOMETHING they can use to fight the hero to give them an advantage. Krypotine, Sentinels, always something.
So, comic book logic is okay here but not with Cyclops' problems? Before A vs X, as near as I can tell there were enough Sentinels still active (with more still being made despite there being less than 200 mutants on the planet) to simply bury the mutants under sheer numbers. This is like Lex Luthor having a Kyrptonite mountain somewhere.
My general understanding is he's using his inventions to make money and run his own company now. (I can't verify cause I haven't bought a Spiderman Comic since One More Day.) And that it didn't sue cause he'd still have to unmask to sue him, and we know that's a no go for him. It probably also helps that prior to that Jamison had the whole freedom of speech/the press bull to hide behind like any sleaze ball in the media, and now he's gotten elected Mayor of New York and has the city's entire resources to expend going after spiderman, which he's doing and would be a pair of interesting developments if Peter Parker didn't cut deals with Satan.
Well, I'm glad to hear Peter is running his own company. However, I don't buy that he would have to unmask. Captain America could vouch for him.

Alternatively, why can't he seek out any of those people you want to help Cyclops to help end the unearned grief in his life?


That's, 1 out of 10 points there. Yeah.
It wasn't a contest nor do people making the points generally get to score them. Otherwise, it's 10 out of 10 points, so there. See how ridiculous that is?

My point is that comic books have an internal logic that means that sometimes what seems like a perfectly reasonable answer to problems for us just won't work for... reasons. Let's be real for a moment here, how many problems would be solved if these guys just killed their villains, many of whom have more than earned death? Why don't they? What legitimate justification is there? None. If the police were similarly equipped they would kill super villains as they commit their super villainy. But, only a select few can hope to stop them. So, despite being infinitely more dangerous than the average thug who can be shot by police in the commission of a crime, they are put in prisons made of paper. They are treated less harshly despite being way more dangerous. You can deal with that obvious logical disconnect but have a problem with Cyclops not trying to form his own country (which he did) or leave the planet? How about the simple reason that Cyclops believes he and the other mutants shouldn't have to and he's willing to fight to defend their basic right to exist as part of society and not on some secluded island as Inhumans 2.0? I'm pretty sure there's a real world parallel in there and the proposed solution of "move because society dislikes you" wasn't an acceptable answer there.

And no, it wouldn't be boring, it would be a tone shift form what ever the hell the X-men were before this all started to a Space Opera set up. It would be an awesome change of pace and have room for literally infinite staying power if set up right initially. I don't want every single thing to make perfect sense. I want the writers to give a damn and put forth some actual effort, which there not at the moment because darker and edgier and grittier.
It's boring because the X-Men are from Earth and for them to move is to admit defeat. It's boring because with your parameters they suddenly have all kinds of convenient ways to avoid the problem that they have faced for decades of publishing history. Not because they actually overcame the prejudice, but because they convinced space god to tell the humans that they suck. That's a boring victory and a complete cop out. Why not have them slowly gain acceptance? Show actual progress? Sure, have set backs and have anti-mutant hate groups. But also show that the general public is capable of having an original thought and not just being an angry mob. Show the Avengers campaigning against mutant hate groups. Have storylines of other groups destroying Sentinel factories. Have it all culminate in some storyline where the X-Men very clearly are the only thing that stopped some major calamity, possibly at the expense of one of their own. Show that to be the defining moment of the series when public opinion in Marvel finally shifts and the X-Men can then be less about intolerance and more about super heroics and fighting evil mutants. Occasional set backs can pop up and hate groups can rally, but show that there is hope. But allow them to move on, to face other problems. If that doesn't happen, then Cyclops' actions make sense as someone who society has finally pushed too far. Captain America's view (http://cdn.desktopwallpapers4.me/wallpapers/quotes/1920x1200/3/22737-captain-america-sayings-1920x1200-quote-wallpaper.jpg)

And yes, I do have a problem with the way both are being run based on the fact that the writers keep making crap like this Canon and the fact that DC undid a generally far better Canon for the current one, and that Marvel outright refuses to undo things like Civil War and One More Day. (And no, having the president your office by and large supported getting elected come in after the president your office by and large wrote 8 years of diatribes about and sign an executive order to suspend the act is not fixing it. That's setting it up so you can throw out political propaganda and every time you dislike someone in the real world who get's elected you can have them, in your universe, bring it back and go full Nazi, or have a thinly veiled Expy that's all but an exact duplicate of them do it if you fear being sued. If the law had been completely obliterated, maybe, but just a suspension by executive order that's one sentence away from being undone at any time? Nope. Particularly since there conveniently gonna have a second Civil War arc running next year to co-inside with the election cycle.)
Yeah I'm not even going to touch that.

[Metahuman1]

No, no your not. Your just gonna keep defending decisions like this and books like M-day and Civil War and Avenger Arena and Avengers vs. X-men and One More Day and Sin's Past and One Moment in Time and Ultimatum and all other similar manner of horrible books that show the writers either should not be writing or at best should not be writing these characters or in that universe.



I, however, am not gonna give them my money for that kind of crap, and I'm not gonna keep debating it with you.

[t209]

And yes, I do have a problem with the way both are being run based on the fact that the writers keep making crap like this Canon and the fact that DC undid a generally far better Canon for the current one, and that Marvel outright refuses to undo things like Civil War and One More Day. (And no, having the president your office by and large supported getting elected come in after the president your office by and large wrote 8 years of diatribes about and sign an executive order to suspend the act is not fixing it. That's setting it up so you can throw out political propaganda and every time you dislike someone in the real world who get's elected you can have them, in your universe, bring it back and go full Nazi, or have a thinly veiled Expy that's all but an exact duplicate of them do it if you fear being sued. If the law had been completely obliterated, maybe, but just a suspension by executive order that's one sentence away from being undone at any time? Nope. Particularly since there conveniently gonna have a second Civil War arc running next year to co-inside with the election cycle.)
Well, to be fair. We don't need storyline to explain Marvel Civil War's commentary. Just see the creative team's arguments during the event. That's a better commentary, including the lack of proper explanation, than the comics.
To be fair, I kinda imagine Marvel Universe as Warhammer 40k-verse but with a little bit of hope if writers either got the idea of context ruining their messages or not going overboard with "necessary evil" (happen all the time).
On tech levels, there was the first issue of Chirs Claremont and Jim Lee's X-Men where the Russians have space fighters and functional power armor.

[t209]

Uncanny X-Men final issue:
The Mutant Revolution is over without bloodshed. Summer Brothers are planning on pizza parlor.

[Bitter]

Cyclops is my favourite X-man and has been since Morrison shook up the status quo in 2001, although i've turned off him (and all the x-men a fair bit) since Bendis got involved..

While before he was just this boring square, he's for nearly a decade and a half been written as the logical progression of what happens when you take a teenager and drill him for a decade in tactics, using his powers and fighting for mutants rights. He'll kick ass, take names and generally do what is needed to keep the mutant race safe.

He was willing to kill Wanda in Children's Crusade because it was a badly written comic that has since been ignored.

[themaque]

Actually, since this thread I started re-reading some classic X-men stories and reading some new ones, and I've come to a conclusion.

They are all self-righteous, arrogant, overly emotional jerks. Probably about 9 out of 10.

I still like "classic" scott, but man they drag him through the dirt in many of the new stories. -shrugs- But I am having a hard time really rooting for almost anyone in an X-Book.

Who is a GOOD X-man or HONEST member of the X-Men? That HASN'T had some weird switch to become "grittier"?

[Zmeoaice]

Who is a GOOD X-man or HONEST member of the X-Men? That HASN'T had some weird switch to become "grittier"?

The vast majority of mainstream superheros have become "gritty" every now and then to make them hip, not just the X-Men. It doesn't always stick, although they might try as hard as possible to.

I'm not much of a comic reader, but if I'd have to take a guess, I would say Nightcrawler and Kitty Pride probably haven't become extremely gritty.

[Metahuman1]

Depends on your definition of Gritty in Nightcrawlers case.

[LibraryOgre]

Who is a GOOD X-man or HONEST member of the X-Men? That HASN'T had some weird switch to become "grittier"?

Kitty Pryde.
Doug Ramsay, though he's kind of a cheat, even without counting Douglock.

[Logic]

Actually, since this thread I started re-reading some classic X-men stories and reading some new ones, and I've come to a conclusion.

They are all self-righteous, arrogant, overly emotional jerks. Probably about 9 out of 10.

I still like "classic" scott, but man they drag him through the dirt in many of the new stories. -shrugs- But I am having a hard time really rooting for almost anyone in an X-Book.

Who is a GOOD X-man or HONEST member of the X-Men? That HASN'T had some weird switch to become "grittier"?


Kitty Pryde.
Doug Ramsay, though he's kind of a cheat, even without counting Douglock.

I completely agree with Kitty Pryde, and although I have heard of Douglock, I don't recall who he is. In my very limited experience with the X-books, I'd also nominate Colossus and Iceman.

[Aotrs Commander]

Nah, sorry, we have to discount Iceman, on account of the last story in the last volume of adjectiveless X-Men where he went a bit bonkers and nearly froze the world, and Colossus, again fairly recently, who got Cittorak's Juggernaut powers (largely because Illyana forced them on him, because she's an asshat) and also went a bit bonkers.

So...

Er... of the older X-Men...

Yeah, we're down to pretty much Kitty.

And Jubilee of course (who has not devolved into angst despite losing her powers, leading a superteam that sort of fell apart, being turned into a vampire AND adopting a small child...)

Paige Guthrie, maybe?

Counting the newer ones...

Pixie... Rockslide (sorta)... Bling kinda... Um...

...

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much out at that.

[Logic]

Nah, sorry, we have to discount Iceman, on account of the last story in the last volume of adjectiveless X-Men where he went a bit bonkers and nearly froze the world...
wut?

...and Colossus, again fairly recently, who got Cittorak's Juggernaut powers (largely because Illyana forced them on him, because she's an asshat) and also went a bit bonkers. wat!?


So...

Er... of the older X-Men...

Yeah, we're down to pretty much Kitty. Just Kitty is pretty sad. Granted, she is one of my favorite X-Men, but no one else qualifies as not having had their "villain" or "Dark and Gritty" phase? Really? No one?


And Jubilee of course (who has not devolved into angst despite losing her powers, leading a superteam that sort of fell apart, being turned into a vampire AND adopting a small child...) How? This seems like exactly where a character gets their "Dark and Gritty" phase.


Paige Guthrie, maybe?

Counting the newer ones...

Pixie... Rockslide (sorta)... Bling kinda... Um...

...

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much out at that.

Again, very limited experience with X-men, so I see why I was wrong, but I also dont know most of the mutants you named.

[Aotrs Commander]

wut?
wat!?

Yeah...

Believe it or not... Those were the "ever-so-slightly-better" stories of the end of the period (where they ahd another major shake up and I gave up all but one comic): the rest were actually just boring.



Just Kitty is pretty sad. Granted, she is one of my favorite X-Men, but no one else qualifies as not having had their "villain" or "Dark and Gritty" phase? Really? No one?

Preeeetty much, yeah.


How? This seems like exactly where a character gets their "Dark and Gritty" phase.

Because Jubilee is fracking awesome. Obviously.


I mean, sure, when she lost her powers she went away somewhere and had a cry (one brief scene); but literally the next time we saw her she had gone to start working on her own bat to help to run a house for former mutants (yes, the X-Men really took care of their own their, good job Cyclops and Emma (this is one of the bits I disliked least about the whole post-M-Day affair,, that neither long-time teachers suddenly gave a rack about anyone who'd been de-mutanted). Then she got nearly killed by Omega Red and shortly thereafter came back to the X-Men in time to be turned into a vampire. (And she was a bit upset about that last one for a short while (like two or three issues) - because who WOULDN'T be - but she got over it real fast and was back to her usual self in no time. (I think the rest of the X-Men - especially Wolverine - were angsting more FOR her than she was herself...!)


Again, very limited experience with X-men, so I see why I was wrong, but I also dont know most of the mutants you named.

They are relatively new ones from the last decade or so, coming from a period where there was a really large influx of students (as in, Xavier's actually had a population akin to a real school).

I wouldn't care to hazard a guess at how many have been haemoharged away, but of the ones remaining, I could only think of those who have avoided having too much of an angsty phase. Sorta.

[Tyrant]

No, no your not. Your just gonna keep defending decisions like this and books like M-day and Civil War and Avenger Arena and Avengers vs. X-men and One More Day and Sin's Past and One Moment in Time and Ultimatum and all other similar manner of horrible books that show the writers either should not be writing or at best should not be writing these characters or in that universe.
I would love to know where I have defended any of those. I have only read one (AvX) where I thought the real conflict was who could hold the idiot ball longer (Avengers in my opinion, with Wolverine being MVP). I wasn't going to respond because this site doesn't allow political commentary and my response to that would have plunged head first into that. Believe it or not but I largely agree with your stance and it extends to well beyond Marvel into most of the news and entertainment industries and how they have handled things since about 2003 or so. And that's all the more I can say without naming specific people and getting the thread closed, which is why I wasn't going to respond to your tirade.

Stop taking everything that could possibly be viewed as maybe being a positive comment about some random thing at Marvel as the person personally praising Quesada and Bendis and wondering where their shrine is so they can worship them. I can like something at Marvel without liking every little thing they have ever done to ruin your life. I happen to think that Cyclops' current outlook (current for me being somewhere around Battle of the Atom) makes sense. I also happen to think the idea of them leaving Earth is essentially having the end to their decades of fighting for acceptance ending with them saying "we give up". While it could lead to interesting stories, that is beyond unsatisfying.

[themaque]

I would love to know where I have defended any of those. I have only read one (AvX) where I thought the real conflict was who could hold the idiot ball longer (Avengers in my opinion, with Wolverine being MVP).

Funny, because I thought the X-Men came out looking the worse of the two in that one. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyrant]

Funny, because I thought the X-Men came out looking the worse of the two in that one. :smallbiggrin:
Maybe it's because I am more of an X-Men fan than an Avengers fan, but I just don't see it. Almost every bad thing in that series starts with the Avengers doing something stupid, like trying to get involved in the first place.

[t209]

Maybe it's because I am more of an X-Men fan than an Avengers fan, but I just don't see it. Almost every bad thing in that series starts with the Avengers doing something stupid, like trying to get involved in the first place.
Not to mention their various history of ignoring their problems, even if it's happening in their city or turf.
I mean they only cared about Sentinels when Larry Trask's sentinels took Scarlet Witch.

[Kris Strife]

Maybe it's because I am more of an X-Men fan than an Avengers fan, but I just don't see it. Almost every bad thing in that series starts with the Avengers doing something stupid, like trying to get involved in the first place.

Yes, because they totally shouldn't be concerned about an intergalatic life form with a penchant for blowing up planets as it heads towards Earth. Talking to the group with a member that's drawing it towards our little blue marble is totally not the business of the other inhabitants of Earth.

[themaque]

Not to mention their various history of ignoring their problems, even if it's happening in their city or turf.
I mean they only cared about Sentinels when Larry Trask's sentinels took Scarlet Witch.

The do bring that up in the comic, and it's a little unfair. It's like arguing with the Avengers for not showing up to help with Fing Fang Foom when he showed up in Fantastic Four last month.


Maybe it's because I am more of an X-Men fan than an Avengers fan, but I just don't see it. Almost every bad thing in that series starts with the Avengers doing something stupid, like trying to get involved in the first place.

When they got involved, the phoenix force had already utterly destroyed 3 entire civilized planets. Killing untold BILLIONS and on its way to earth. That is exactly the sort of cosmic event the Avengers are there for.

Yeah, Cap went to Cyclops and said "We want the girl, we have a plan" the SMART thing for Cyclops to do would have been say "Let's hear your plan, bring them HERE and we will work on this together" not say "Bugger off it's our business" and then shoot the guy.

I felt that the Avengers reactions where justified MUCH more than the X-Men's through the series. EXCEPT for ONE spot. The very end where Cyclops is in jail? Yeah he needed to be in jail, but I think at least SOME justification should have been put on the corrupting Phoenix force rather than just on him. Considering how bad a mojo was being worked on him, he held it together PRETTY well. But you could tell it was working on him right from the start.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, Cap went to Cyclops and said "We want the girl, we have a plan" the SMART thing for Cyclops to do would have been say "Let's hear your plan, bring them HERE and we will work on this together" not say "Bugger off it's our business" and then shoot the guy.


Except the Avengers didn't actually have a plan beyond "take Hope to the moon and then, I dunno, lasers?". Unless we're counting Wolverine's plan of preemptive execution of a child.

So, "bugger off, 100% of the people with personal experience with the Phoenix are here" was actually a sensible response, and Cap should have been showing up and saying "how can we help you" not "hand over one of your people to the first armed force that shows up on your doorstep which has absolutely no experience with the issue at hand and is a representative of a power with an institutional history of attempting to wipe you out with giant death robots".

[Tyrant]

The do bring that up in the comic, and it's a little unfair. It's like arguing with the Avengers for not showing up to help with Fing Fang Foom when he showed up in Fantastic Four last month.
To an extent, I agree. However, the X-Men have been attacked repeatedly by people that either directly represent the government or have close ties to the government. The Avengers have close ties to the government. Why haven't they done anything in response? SHIELD has their own Sentinels. The Avengers have ties to SHIELD. At some point someone has to question why the Avengers are never around for these things or never take it upon themselves to tell the elements of the government to lay off the mutants or even just come out publicly in support of mutant rights. I don't expect the Avengers to be there every time Sentinels attack, but some kind of commentary that didn't come after going to war with the X-Men would've been nice. You would expect with members like Beast (raving hypocrite and cry baby), Wolverine (killer who should be the one everyone wants to bring to justice), Scarlet Witch (should be tried for crimes against reality), and Quicksilver (I'm sure there's a reason to dislike him) that the topic of mutant rights and how the Avengers don't seem to care that the government and institutions they have ties to seem to build an awful lot of mutant hunting death bots has never come up at a meeting. Or at all.

When they got involved, the phoenix force had already utterly destroyed 3 entire civilized planets. Killing untold BILLIONS and on its way to earth. That is exactly the sort of cosmic event the Avengers are there for.
Did they get concerned in any other Phoenix related event? Did they even try to talk to anyone that knew anything of value? Rachel Summers was right there when they went to talk to Wolverine. They didn't show up with an army to get to her.

Yeah, Cap went to Cyclops and said "We want the girl, we have a plan" the SMART thing for Cyclops to do would have been say "Let's hear your plan, bring them HERE and we will work on this together" not say "Bugger off it's our business" and then shoot the guy.
Did Cap forget how to use the phone? Was showing up with an army at the doorstep of a people that have been pushed around at every turn to demand someone you have no legal claim on really the only way he could contact Cyclops? He made his intentions very clear, give us the girl or else. Cyclops was not beholden to turn her over and he had the right to defend himself against the clearly imminent aggression.

I felt that the Avengers reactions where justified MUCH more than the X-Men's through the series. EXCEPT for ONE spot. The very end where Cyclops is in jail? Yeah he needed to be in jail, but I think at least SOME justification should have been put on the corrupting Phoenix force rather than just on him. Considering how bad a mojo was being worked on him, he held it together PRETTY well. But you could tell it was working on him right from the start.
Why is Cyclops in jail and not Wolverine? What was his actual crime? Killing Xavier? While possessed by a cosmic entity and being threatened by Xavier? Did anyone expect that to hold up in any fair court? Meanwhile Wolverine is a known killer and he's an Avenger. I can understand Cyclops' social circle getting a little smaller as a result but jail and treating him like a terrorist? That's ridiculous. Not to mention what happened to him in jail justified everything he was saying.

Except the Avengers didn't actually have a plan beyond "take Hope to the moon and then, I dunno, lasers?". Unless we're counting Wolverine's plan of preemptive execution of a child.

So, "bugger off, 100% of the people with personal experience with the Phoenix are here" was actually a sensible response, and Cap should have been showing up and saying "how can we help you" not "hand over one of your people to the first armed force that shows up on your doorstep which has absolutely no experience with the issue at hand and is a representative of a power with an institutional history of attempting to wipe you out with giant death robots".
This pretty much sums up my view on why the Avengers were wrong from the get go.

[themaque]

Except the Avengers didn't actually have a plan beyond "take Hope to the moon and then, I dunno, lasers?". Unless we're counting Wolverine's plan of preemptive execution of a child.

So, "bugger off, 100% of the people with personal experience with the Phoenix are here" was actually a sensible response, and Cap should have been showing up and saying "how can we help you" not "hand over one of your people to the first armed force that shows up on your doorstep which has absolutely no experience with the issue at hand and is a representative of a power with an institutional history of attempting to wipe you out with giant death robots".

Their Stark Tech "Laser" disrupted and broke apart the Phoenix force. It didn't WORK granted, not in any way they wanted, but Scott's plan of "wait and see" would have been as 100% unsuccessful. His training program of just beating the crap out of Hope and training her to be a warrior was doing nothing but getting her ready to destroy everything! A destruction level event screaming towards earth and all they do is want to sit around and wait? Not the best option.



Did Cap forget how to use the phone? Was showing up with an army at the doorstep of a people that have been pushed around at every turn to demand someone you have no legal claim on really the only way he could contact Cyclops? He made his intentions very clear, give us the girl or else. Cyclops was not beholden to turn her over and he had the right to defend himself against the clearly imminent aggression.

Things where time sensitive, and while he did have an army, they showed up cloaked and out of site. He showed up in person and calmly waited for him to show up. Scot however, was the first and fast to not only be unwilling to talk about things, but to randomly just start firing for NO REASON at that point! After talking to Logan it could be reasoned that Scott wasn't going to be thinking reasonable about that at all. Oh, and I agree 100% they should have shown him also talking to Hank and Rachel, who I think would have told them the same thing.

When both White Queen and Magneto start questioning "Dude, I don't think this is the time to start picking fights" you might not be on the right course.



Why is Cyclops in jail and not Wolverine? What was his actual crime? Killing Xavier? While possessed by a cosmic entity and being threatened by Xavier? Did anyone expect that to hold up in any fair court? Meanwhile Wolverine is a known killer and he's an Avenger. I can understand Cyclops' social circle getting a little smaller as a result but jail and treating him like a terrorist? That's ridiculous. Not to mention what happened to him in jail justified everything he was saying.

The only thing Cyclops did was throwing his weight around before the whole event. Afterwards? I flat out said they where highly over reacting to anything Scott did while possessed. They where hunting down all the renegade x-men and anyone who had been possessed in particular.



This pretty much sums up my view on why the Avengers were wrong from the get go.

Hey, you are welcome to your opinion, and you're not alone in it. I had a big conversation just last night as I lent my copy of the trade to a friend, and he agreed with you. It's cool that when we both look at the same work and come up with diametrically opposed opinions.

I would also say that the Avengers messed up training hope as well. Oh? A land of spiritual enlightenment? Good thinking! but then they just show her punching or running or carying pots and not one word about spiritualism, balance, or you know anything that would help dealing with a cosmic entity living in your head.

one of the Major downfalls of Scott's plan was his PR and that could easily be ascribed him the Phoenix Force affecting him, driving him to be faster and harsher. His best bet would have been to show that HIS countries are working and peaceful. To let others come to him and not start throwing worldly proclamations around. Even if I disagree with how things started out, Things would have been VERY different indeed if NAMOR hadn't been one of the recipients to the Phoenix Force. As Scott said, they where winning, with only minor losses on some technical moral quibbles, until Imperious Rex became the living embodiment of everyone else s fears. Heck, I bet even MAGNETO would have been a better choice to be the vessel of the power.

If everyone had been able to work together in the beginning, I imagine things would have been Very VERY different, although that wasn't really the POINT of the comic now was it?

[t209]

I would also say that the Avengers messed up training hope as well. Oh? A land of spiritual enlightenment? Good thinking! but then they just show her punching or running or carying pots and not one word about spiritualism, balance, or you know anything that would help dealing with a cosmic entity living in your head.
Well, I think the comic writers seem to think about Kung Fu movies (Shaw Brothers and Bruce Lee movies) instead of Buddhism. Then again, Iron Fist was created during that popularity.

[themaque]

Well, I think the comic writers seem to think about Kung Fu movies (Shaw Brothers and Bruce Lee movies) instead of Buddhism. Then again, Iron Fist was created during that popularity.

Oh yeah, definitely. That can easily work but without Miagi-isms or showing some wise leader putting the effort into perspective, you're still just punching people and strength building.

[Metahuman1]

I would love to know where I have defended any of those. I have only read one (AvX) where I thought the real conflict was who could hold the idiot ball longer (Avengers in my opinion, with Wolverine being MVP). I wasn't going to respond because this site doesn't allow political commentary and my response to that would have plunged head first into that. Believe it or not but I largely agree with your stance and it extends to well beyond Marvel into most of the news and entertainment industries and how they have handled things since about 2003 or so. And that's all the more I can say without naming specific people and getting the thread closed, which is why I wasn't going to respond to your tirade.

Stop taking everything that could possibly be viewed as maybe being a positive comment about some random thing at Marvel as the person personally praising Quesada and Bendis and wondering where their shrine is so they can worship them. I can like something at Marvel without liking every little thing they have ever done to ruin your life. I happen to think that Cyclops' current outlook (current for me being somewhere around Battle of the Atom) makes sense. I also happen to think the idea of them leaving Earth is essentially having the end to their decades of fighting for acceptance ending with them saying "we give up". While it could lead to interesting stories, that is beyond unsatisfying.

The fact that you are willfully defending not only this utterly sick joke of an excuse for character development for Cyclops, you are also vehemently defending Man of Steel a couple of threads over form any of the long list of perfectly legitimate criticisms anyone wants to lay against it, and outright trying to decry anyone who offers those perfectly valid and legitimate criticisms against it in a fashion that strongly suggests attacking there credibility to make said criticisms, is an action.

That directly and absolutely conflicts with what you have said above. Harshly.

And actions are louder then words.

And while Avengers Vs. X-men was crap, see, here's the thing, the trend started a good bit before that. Avengers Disassembled really was the starting point, but do a bit of reworking to a couple of legs of it, and it actually can work as a stand alone story line. Or hell, it could even work as a dark "What If?".

That lead to M-day, House of M and all the junk that came with, and Civil War. Which then just jump started the train wreck.

Read them and You'll understand why it's such a Crock that Cyclops is were he is now, cause I gotta tell ya, anything you can accuse Cyclops of, Tony Stark is Guilty as Sin for far worse these days, and he get's a free pass but only cause the Robert Downing Jr. Iron Man Movie made him the most popular and well known and well liked character Marvel still had film rights too. If not for that, he'd still be Red Skull 2.0 well on his way to being Emperor of Earth Tony Stark. Yeah.

[GloatingSwine]

Their Stark Tech "Laser" disrupted and broke apart the Phoenix force. It didn't WORK granted, not in any way they wanted, but Scott's plan of "wait and see" would have been as 100% unsuccessful. His training program of just beating the crap out of Hope and training her to be a warrior was doing nothing but getting her ready to destroy everything! A destruction level event screaming towards earth and all they do is want to sit around and wait? Not the best option.


Actually, given that Scott was exactly right about what the Phoenix was heading to Earth to do, his plan was far more likely to be successful given that it would have meant Hope was far more receptive and had expert guidance on hand.

The Avengers did only stupid and counterproductive things and went about them in a stupid and counterproductive manner.

[themaque]

Actually, given that Scott was exactly right about what the Phoenix was heading to Earth to do, his plan was far more likely to be successful given that it would have meant Hope was far more receptive and had expert guidance on hand.

The Avengers did only stupid and counterproductive things and went about them in a stupid and counterproductive manner.

No, the only reason she didn't get controlled by the phoenix herself is through the understanding and training she DID receive. Talking to Scarlet Witch and the Thunderer. Learning about the Dragons. Reaching a Balance. Without that, she would have done the same thing Scott & Co was doing and try to change things by force. She ALMOST went over herself right at the end there.

But you side with your opinions and I will side with mine.

[Tyrant]

The fact that you are willfully defending not only this utterly sick joke of an excuse for character development for Cyclops, you are also vehemently defending Man of Steel a couple of threads over form any of the long list of perfectly legitimate criticisms anyone wants to lay against it, and outright trying to decry anyone who offers those perfectly valid and legitimate criticisms against it in a fashion that strongly suggests attacking there credibility to make said criticisms, is an action.
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't point out when people make up scenes whole cloth to justify their view of a movie. Shame on me.:smallsigh:

Who decides what are valid and legitimate criticisms? Are movies not art, and therefore subjective? What you mean is that they are criticisms that you agree with. Feel free to defend them over there. Show me where I am wrong. As for attacking credibility, when I point out that a scene doesn't exist and the person doubles down on saying it does when I have the DVD to review at will and can confirm with absolute certainty that said scene does not exist, yes I question their credibility.

That directly and absolutely conflicts with what you have said above. Harshly.
Try again. I said that I have only read one of those, that I thought everyone in it was fairly stupid (hint, that means I didn't care much for it), that I largely agreed with your take on Marvel's actions (I will spell it out again, I was agreeing with you, let that sink in before you launch your next tirade), and that you seem to have a persecution complex when it comes to Marvel. Forgive me for not seeing the obvious connect between defending Man of Steel and, well, anything I wrote in this thread. Connect the dots for me because I don't see it.

And actions are louder then words.
Indeed they do. For instance, you not appearing to read my responses (again, I was agreeing, just pointing it out)and turning this into your anti-Marvel soap box says quite a bit.

And while Avengers Vs. X-men was crap, see, here's the thing, the trend started a good bit before that. Avengers Disassembled really was the starting point, but do a bit of reworking to a couple of legs of it, and it actually can work as a stand alone story line. Or hell, it could even work as a dark "What If?".

That lead to M-day, House of M and all the junk that came with, and Civil War. Which then just jump started the train wreck.
The history lesson is nice but what's your point? you dislike the road that lead us here, okay, I get it. I am not defending the validity of the journey, I'm defending the destination now that we are here. There is a difference even if you can't see it.

I have never said that I like what happened to Cyclops. I said that I understand how he could be this way after what he has been through. You have chosen to heap mountains of your personal drama into that and that's your problem, not mine. You want to keep hating, go ahead. I don't have the time and energy to waste on hating utterly unimportant things that I can't change. The real world provides me with more than enough real problems.

Read them and You'll understand why it's such a Crock that Cyclops is were he is now, cause I gotta tell ya, anything you can accuse Cyclops of, Tony Stark is Guilty as Sin for far worse these days, and he get's a free pass but only cause the Robert Downing Jr. Iron Man Movie made him the most popular and well known and well liked character Marvel still had film rights too. If not for that, he'd still be Red Skull 2.0 well on his way to being Emperor of Earth Tony Stark. Yeah.
I'm not accusing Cyclops of anything. I despise Tony Stark.

[Logic]

Not to mention their various history of ignoring their problems, even if it's happening in their city or turf.
I mean they only cared about Sentinels when Larry Trask's sentinels took Scarlet Witch.

I'd say that's more of a writing problem. People read the X-books to see the X-characters. If the Avengers show up like the cavalry to solve all the Mutant's problems, then things are going to get stale pretty fast.

Granted, some degree of overlap would be preferred to none, but the X-Men feel as if they inhabit their own little sub-universe until they are told to play nice with the rest of the heroes.

That arrangement probably has something to do with the way that Marvel was structured in the 90s (the X-Books, Spider-Books, and Avengers Books all had their own separate Editors'-in-chief, and were rarely crossing the picket lines.)

[HandofShadows]

No, the only reason she didn't get controlled by the phoenix herself is through the understanding and training she DID receive. Talking to Scarlet Witch and the Thunderer. Learning about the Dragons. Reaching a Balance. Without that, she would have done the same thing Scott & Co was doing and try to change things by force. She ALMOST went over herself right at the end there.

You forgot the short but very important talk with Spider Man. :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

If we're willing to expand who's an X-man a little bit, I'd also toss out "Meggan", from Excalibur. Even given the Cittorak mention above, I'd still classify Piotr as being good, because the only way to turn him evil was to get him semi-possessed by an elder God... even N'astirh noted that his soul was so pure it burned.

[Thrudd]

Sonewhat off topic, but not really: I am enjoying teenage cyclops' adventures in space with his father. Though it looks like he will be reuniting with his fellow Xmen during black vortex. If this version of cyclops survives to grow into an adult (and retains these memories), how would it change his personality? Also, teenage Jean Grey, if she survives, seems like she will be much less defined by her relationship with Scott, if she even has one. New universe with Cable and Rachel not existing? After secret wars and battleworld, who knows what will be left.

[Aotrs Commander]

Sonewhat off topic, but not really: I am enjoying teenage cyclops' adventures in space with his father. Though it looks like he will be reuniting with his fellow Xmen during black vortex. If this version of cyclops survives to grow into an adult (and retains these memories), how would it change his personality? Also, teenage Jean Grey, if she survives, seems like she will be much less defined by her relationship with Scott, if she even has one. New universe with Cable and Rachel not existing? After secret wars and battleworld, who knows what will be left.

Corsair's alive again...?

Dammit, then why the hell is Banshee still dead!

Seriously, dude's been an X-Man longer than the second generation has and he got absolutely no respect.



Be about Rachel's luck to be erased from existance, wouldn't it? Poor lass.

[Lurkmoar]

Thought the rules about time travel in the Marvel Universe is that when you time travel and change things, you only create a new alternate time line, unless you have a powerful artifact such as the Forever Crystal or the Time Gem from the Infinity Gems.

Of course, there's still loops such as Apocalypse infecting Cable with the techno-organic virus, and Cable unwittingly infects a past Apocalypse with that same techno-organic virus... urgh.

[Thrudd]

Thought the rules about time travel in the Marvel Universe is that when you time travel and change things, you only create a new alternate time line, unless you have a powerful artifact such as the Forever Crystal or the Time Gem from the Infinity Gems.

Of course, there's still loops such as Apocalypse infecting Cable with the techno-organic virus, and Cable unwittingly infects a past Apocalypse with that same techno-organic virus... urgh.

Well...the multiverse is kind of collapsing, and the infinity gems shattered trying to fix it. So we'll see what is left when that is taken care of.

Hepshibah and the Star Jammers had Corsair resurrected by some sort of shady process, and he now needs daily injections of some kind of nanotech serum that can only be procured through shady black market deals, or else he will die again.

[t209]

I knew why they make a idiotic plot on bringing the o5 x-men.
Giving Bendis time to play with them before the apocalypse.