Hide In Plain Sight

[Shnigda]

Hey guys,
I am about to reach a level where I can gain some sort of HIPS (the shadowdancer version). I am playing a TWF Rogue at the moment and in order to get sneak attacks i figured HIPS would be useful.
However, I can see that there are drawbacks for some versions of HIPS (needing to be within 10ft of a shadow, needing to be in a natural setting etc...).
So my question is, what is the best version of HIPS?

Also, in order to qualify for Shadowdancer I need to purchase the Mobility enchant for my armour... Is it worth it or are there better alternative ways of gaining mobility?

EDIT: Just realised that the 8 ranks of Move silently and 10 ranks of Hide could mean actual ranks rather than just the total skill modifier... Can someone confirm if this is the case? (because otherwise i will be waiting for a while for HIPS)... Also if this is the case, could someone suggest an alternate way of getting sneak attack in melee without flanking.

[Kraken]

See if you can get a collar of umbral metamorphosis, from Tome of Magic. It grants you the dark creature template, which gives you HIPS, bonuses to hide and move silently, +10 to all movement speeds, and numerous other benefits. For 22,000 it's expensive, but it's good.

[OldTrees1]

The best (most bang for least cost) version of HiPS is the Dark Creature template from the obscure campaign module.

The second best version is the Dark Creature template (same template) from the middle 3rd of the Tome of Magic. This is the collar of umbral metamorphosis mentioned above (or a simple +1LA template).


Edit:
Yes ranks means ranks not modifier. 8 ranks requires 5 levels not 1 level and a +4 modifier.

[Grek]

EDIT: Just realised that the 8 ranks of Move silently and 10 ranks of Hide could mean actual ranks rather than just the total skill modifier... Can someone confirm if this is the case? (because otherwise i will be waiting for a while for HIPS)... Also if this is the case, could someone suggest an alternate way of getting sneak attack in melee without flanking.

It does mean ranks. As for sneak attacks, you need your target to "be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC". This happens when you are invisible, subject to a Blink effect or successfully feint. It also happens when your target is balancing, blind, climbing, cowering, flat-footed, grappling someone else, helpless, in darkness they can't see through, overloaded, running, stunned, squeezing.

Methods to accomplish this include:
-Ring of Blink + Ghost Touch weapon. This is expensive for a TWF user (43000gp - Ouch!) but makes all of your attacks sneak attacks and lets you see/walk through walls as well. Do this if you want to be ghost ninja.
-Oil of Deeper Darkness applied to an item and Potions of Ebon Eyes for yourself. This surrounds you in impenetrable magical darkness you (and only you) can see through. Costs 150gp per day for the darkness oil and 50gp per 10 minute dose of Ebon Eyes.
-Get a source of Greater Invisibility, probably via UMDing a wand. This makes you (unsurprisingly) invisible, but in a way that doesn't go away when you attack people.
-Obtain Shields of Blinding. For 1165gp, you get 2 uses of the Blinding special effect per day, which forces a DC 14 Reflex save vs blinding in a 20' area around you.
-Get some sort of Gaze Attack. This will force people to avert their eyes (effectively blinding them to you), letting you sneak attack them. Eyes of Doom (25000gp), Robe of Scintillating Colors(27000gp), a Monocle of Charming (28000gp) or Eyes of Petrification (98000gp) all do this.
-Flank them. If your party members are unable or unwilling to help you with flanking tactics, try getting a pet dog or something who will help you.

[Curmudgeon]

-Ring of Blink + Ghost Touch weapon. This is expensive for a TWF user (43000gp - Ouch!) but makes all of your attacks sneak attacks and lets you see/walk through walls as well. Do this if you want to be ghost ninja.
This doesn't work at all. Blink moves you between the Material and Ethereal planes randomly, making 20% of your attacks miss because you're on the wrong plane when your weapon would otherwise connect. Ghost Touch lets you attack incorporeal creatures, not cross-planar creatures. When you're ethereal you're also incorporeal and you can use the Ghost Touch property to pick up the weapon if you drop it; however, your targets on the Material Plane are not incorporeal. Also while Blinking there's a 50% chance for every 5' you move through solid Material Plane objects by being on the Ethereal Plane that you'll shift back to the Material Plane and take damage, so that's not something you want to do very often.

There are (at least) six different types of Hide in Plain Sight in D&D 3.5. The Supernatural form which Shadowdancers and Assassins get is the best; it only requires you to be near any sort of shadow to Hide. (This HiPS won't work in a pitch black space, so you won't be able to Hide there from creatures with darkvision; that's pretty much the only failure case.) I don't know of a better way to obtain the Mobility requirement for Shadowdancer entry than via the armor enhancement which grants the feat.

[Grek]

Ethereal creatures count as incorporeal. It says so in the spell description. Dumb, but true.

[Surpriser]

Minor nitpick: The armor enhancement does not actually grant the feat. You gain its benefits (+4 to AC against AoOs) but nothing more.
While also "need the feat to qualify for PrC" might be seen as some sort of "benefit", I would not allow this at my table.
What happens if you remove the armor? Do you lose all benefits of the Shadowdancer? What if the armor is destroyed? If you only need the feat in the moment when you take the first level of the PrC, any guild of Shadowdancers would need only a single armor with Mobility that gets loaned to all prospective novices.

For me, a PrC that has feats as requirements actually means that you have to have the feats, not just something similar.

EDIT:
A cheap way to gain sneak attack: Marbles. Anyone without 5 ranks in balance loses their Dex bonus to AC and can be sneak attacked while standing in a field of marbles.

[Shnigda]

Minor nitpick: The armor enhancement does not actually grant the feat. You gain its benefits (+4 to AC against AoOs) but nothing more.
While also "need the feat to qualify for PrC" might be seen as some sort of "benefit", I would not allow this at my table.
What happens if you remove the armor? Do you lose all benefits of the Shadowdancer? What if the armor is destroyed? If you only need the feat in the moment when you take the first level of the PrC, any guild of Shadowdancers would need only a single armor with Mobility that gets loaned to all prospective novices.

For me, a PrC that has feats as requirements actually means that you have to have the feats, not just something similar.

EDIT:
A cheap way to gain sneak attack: Marbles. Anyone without 5 ranks in balance loses their Dex bonus to AC and can be sneak attacked while standing in a field of marbles.

This is a good point, I hadnt thought about it like that... Perhaps a couple more levels will be needed to get HIPS then...

Also, about the marbles, when they affect someone, do they stay in the square or are they scattered everywhere, unable to be used again for the encounter?

[Doctor Awkward]

What happens if you remove the armor? Do you lose all benefits of the Shadowdancer?


The general rule is that characters qualify for any feat, ability, PrC, etc., provided you meet all the prerequisites, regardless of where those prerequisites come from, unless the thing they want specifically says otherwise.

If at any point you lose a prerequisite for a thing you have taken, then you lose all benefits of that thing until the prerequisite is restored.

So if the exact wording is "grants you the benefits of the Mobility feat"
...that's a little wishy-washy, but when was the last time you ever heard anyone complaining about that feat being over-powered?

I'd allow it to count.

[Curmudgeon]

For me, a PrC that has feats as requirements actually means that you have to have the feats, not just something similar.
Excepting prestige classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, where there are different rules about satisfying prerequisites continuously, entry requirements are only checked each time you enter into a level of the PrC. That's done at Step 1. Choose Class of the Level Advancement sequence (pages 58-59 in Player's Handbook). You have to have the feat every time you're entering a level of the class, but not the rest of the time because the individual Shadowdancer class features have no dependency on Mobility.

[Chronos]

The best version of Hide in Plain Sight is that possessed by the Brownie (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a), which works in any conditions of "dim light, tall grass, or heavy undergrowth", is [ex] so it works even in antimagic, and can be used while both being observed and not having concealment. Unfortunately, the only way to get this version of HiPS is to be a brownie, which means 4 LA.

[chartear]

I didn't see it mentioned here, but there's also the Cloak Dance version of hide in plain sight. I think you'll be able to get the sneak attack damage with your attacks the next round, but I'm not sure.

[Curmudgeon]

The best version of Hide in Plain Sight is that possessed by the Brownie (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a), which works in any conditions of "dim light, tall grass, or heavy undergrowth", is [ex] so it works even in antimagic, and can be used while both being observed and not having concealment.
I wouldn't call that "best". It fails in all of the following situations:

daylight in a desert
daylight on water
daylight on rock
daylight on water
daylight on short grass
bright light in any non-natural terrain

[Madhava]

HiPS via blend into shadows feat (from Drow of the Underdark) is pretty solid. Take this with one level of Warlock, & take darkness as your 1st level/least invocation.

Compared to Shadowdancer, this means saves you from wasting two feats, & either five or ten ranks of skills (perform/dance is possibly cross-class). Blend into shadows also allows you to hide as a swift action. The drawback is you may only HiPS in magical darkness. But with Warlock 1, you create your own magic darkness, {∞} uses per day.

Or, taking the dark creature template costs you zero feats & zero skills. You pay for it with the LA+1, though.

[Andezzar]

See if you can get a collar of umbral metamorphosis, from Tome of Magic. It grants you the dark creature template, which gives you HIPS, bonuses to hide and move silently, +10 to all movement speeds, and numerous other benefits. For 22,000 it's expensive, but it's good.That does not work because this version of HiPS still requires concealment. It only allows you to hide while being observed.


The best (most bang for least cost) version of HiPS is the Dark Creature template from the obscure campaign module.Yup, it's Cormyr - Tearing of the Weave. That version removes both the need for concealment and and the need to be unobserved. It is Su however and, as with the other dark creature template, it makes the creature extraplanar. So you should look for a way to get back from the plane of shadow when someone casts dismissal.

Both templates also have the problem that their HiPS does not work in daylight. Whereas the Shadowdancer HiPS only requires some kind of shadow within 10 ft., which can be accomplished with any light source.


The general rule is that characters qualify for any feat, ability, PrC, etc., provided you meet all the prerequisites, regardless of where those prerequisites come from, unless the thing they want specifically says otherwise.

If at any point you lose a prerequisite for a thing you have taken, then you lose all benefits of that thing until the prerequisite is restored.While this is true for feats it is not true for PrCs (outside of CArc and CW). You only have to qualify for a PrC before taking the first level of it. Afterwards you can retrain those feats.


HiPS via blend into shadows feat (from Drow of the Underdark) is pretty solid. Take this with one level of Warlock, & take darkness as your 1st level/least invocation.Don't forget that you still need an area of magical darkness within 10 ft. The feat does not mention that the spending of the darkness SLA also creates such an area. So it is pretty obvious that something is going on.

[Curmudgeon]

You only have to qualify for a PrC before taking the first level of it. Afterwards you can retrain those feats.
Change "the first" to "every" and you're right. If you only want one level of Shadowdancer you wouldn't need to meet the entry requirements any more. If you wanted to re-enter the class for another level you would still need those feats.

[Andezzar]

Change "the first" to "every" and you're right. If you only want one level of Shadowdancer you wouldn't need to meet the entry requirements any more. If you wanted to re-enter the class for another level you would still need those feats.I disagree. The DMG only requires to check for prerequisites before the first level of the PrC:
Unlike the basic classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

And for the Shadowdancer in particular:
To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.After the first level of Shadowdancer, the character already is a Shadowdancer so he need no longer become one. The other PrCs have similar rules.

[Chronos]

Quoth Curmudgeon:

I wouldn't call that "best". It fails in all of the following situations:

daylight in a desert
daylight on water
daylight on rock
daylight on water
daylight on short grass
bright light in any non-natural terrain
Sure, but most versions of HiPS will fail in those circumstances. Most of them will also fail in an antimagic field, which can be significant if, say, you're the one deliberately creating the AMF (UMD a scroll).

[Andezzar]

Sure, but most versions of HiPS will fail in those circumstances.Shadowdancer HiPS fails in none of those conditions.


Most of them will also fail in an antimagic field, which can be significant if, say, you're the one deliberately creating the AMF (UMD a scroll).Why would anyone relying on (magic) weapons want to walk around in an AMF?

[Troacctid]

Don't forget that you still need an area of magical darkness within 10 ft. The feat does not mention that the spending of the darkness SLA also creates such an area. So it is pretty obvious that something is going on.

Given that you can cast Darkness at will, that shouldn't be an issue. Just cast Darkness and refresh it when it runs out. The real drawback is that it costs a swift action.

[Curmudgeon]

I disagree. The DMG only requires to check for prerequisites before the first level of the PrC
That qualifier is your own addition. The rules do require you to qualify before the first level. They also require you to qualify to become a second level Shadowdancer.

[Andezzar]

That qualifier is your own addition. The rules do require you to qualify before the first level.Agreed.

They also require you to qualify to become a second level Shadowdancer.Where do the rules say that? The rules require you to qualify to become a shadowdancer, they do not explicitly require you to qualify to become a different shadowdancer. Anyone eligible to take the second level in the class already is a shadowdancer. The general rules also only refer to the first level of a PrC

[Chronos]

Quoth Andezzar:

Shadowdancer HiPS fails in none of those conditions.
Aside from the fact that most of those terrains are unlikely to feature any shadows.


Why would anyone relying on (magic) weapons want to walk around in an AMF?
I dunno; next time I meet someone who relies on weapons, I'll ask them. But I was referring to rogues.

Oh, and another source of HiPS that's worthy of mention is the Umbral Disciple prestige class, from Magic of Incarnum. A one-level dip in Incarnate will qualify you (or a feat, but Incarnate is a good dip for rogues anyway), and then three levels in the class gives you always-on concealment and HiPS (as long as you're not in an AMF).

[Andezzar]

Aside from the fact that most of those terrains are unlikely to feature any shadows.Any opaque object in the path of light will create a shadow. The shadow required for SD HiPS does not have to be large enough to envelop the shadowdancer. Any shadow will do, even the one between the legs of your opponent if the only light source is directly above him. The shadow of a single blade of grass would also do.



I dunno; next time I meet someone who relies on weapons, I'll ask them. But I was referring to rogues.So what does the rogue use to deliver his sneak attacks?

[yellowrocket]

The requirement for a second level shadow dancer is that you be a first level shadow dancer. To be a first level shadow dancer you need to meet the requirements. So to be a second level shadow dancer you MUST meet the first level requirements. Same as any other progression in the game.

[nyjastul69]

The requirement for a second level shadow dancer is that you be a first level shadow dancer. To be a first level shadow dancer you need to meet the requirements. So to be a second level shadow dancer you MUST meet the first level requirements. Same as any other progression in the game.

I think what Andezzar is saying is that a first level Shadow dancer doesn't actually need to meet the prerequisites. They are only required prior to taking the class. Once taken, there is no further obligation to meet the prerequisites as they are strictly stated as being needed to take the first level of the class. I personally, do not think this is actually the intent of the rule, but Andezzar makes a good point RAWwise.

Andezzar, if I misrepresented your position, I apologize.

[yellowrocket]

The requirement for a second level shadow dancer is that you be a first level shadow dancer. To be a first level shadow dancer you need to meet the requirements. So to be a second level shadow dancer you MUST meet the first level requirements. Same as any other progression in the game.

[nyjastul69]

The requirement for a second level shadow dancer is that you be a first level shadow dancer. To be a first level shadow dancer you need to meet the requirements. So to be a second level shadow dancer you MUST meet the first level requirements. Same as any other progression in the game.

I get what you said, I quoted it. Strictly speaking the rules don't require what you are claiming. Can you please cite a source instead of repeating your own personal opinion?

[Andezzar]

Andezzar, if I misrepresented your position, I apologize.That was exactly what I was saying about the rules. I disagree though that this isn't RAI as well.


The requirement for a second level shadow dancer is that you be a first level shadow dancer. To be a first level shadow dancer you need to meet the requirements.Here is where you are mistaken. The requirements are to become a Shadowdancer, not to continue to be one or to become a more experienced one. Rogue 7 obviously is not a Shadowdancer. Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 1 is. So the latter character has become a Shadowdancer at some point. To become Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 2 he does not need to meet the prerequisites because he already is a Shadowdancer.


So to be a second level shadow dancer you MUST meet the first level requirements. Same as any other progression in the game.No, to take the second level of shdowdancer you simply must have the first level, which you do. There is no rule that takes this level away.

Let me walk you through how you go from Shadowdancer 1 to Shadowdancer 2. The first step of leveling up is to select a class. You choose the Shadowdancer (or any other PrC). The PrC rules tell us to meet the Prerequisites before you take the first level of the PrC. You already have taken that level, so you need not meet them. The rules for the Shadowdancer in particular tell us you need to meet the prerequisites, to become a Shadowdancer. You already are a Shadowdancer, so you need not become one, and a such do not need to meet the prerequisites. The remaining steps of adding HD, BAB etc. should be straight forward.


Feats and PrCs from CArc or CW are all different. Feats require you to continually meet the prerequisites to continue to be able to use them. If you don't you cannot use the feat, but you do not lose the feat itself. At least the example clarifies that you are again allowed to use the feat if and when you again meet the prerequisites.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13 because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.

With the PrCs from the two aforementioned books you are screwed if at a single point in time you do not meet the prerequisites. CArc removes all special abilities of the PrC from the character and does not mention that they are given them back if the character again meets the prerequisites at a later point.
Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.

CW is even more dysfunctional. While you do not lose the class features themselves, you lose their benefits (i.e. what the features actually enable you to do). The book does not have a mechanism to get them back either.

Now look at prerequisites like[quote=CArc p. 19]Must undergo the Ritual of BondingWell too bad you do not undergo the ritual of bonding right now, so you no longer meet the prerequisites....
If the PrC calls for being able to cast certain spells, you better not actually cast the last two of those spells or you no longer meet the prerequisites...

[Shnigda]

This has all been really helpful, thanks guys!
1 last follow up question though... What is the earliest level you can multiclass into Shadowdancer? Is total-level 8 the first time you can take a level of Shadowdancer (In my case Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 1)? Or can you take a level at total-level 7 (Rogue 6/Shadowdancer 1)?

[Andezzar]

No, you need to have 10 ranks in Hide before taking the first level of Shadowdancer. You cannot have 10 ranks without having 7 levels (which each maximized the skill). There is a trick to gain an extra rank early but that would require two additional feats (Favored, Primary Contact), which you do not have room for.

[Chronos]

Quoth Andezzar:

So what does the rogue use to deliver his sneak attacks?
Why would I want to be making attacks? I'm a rogue, not a fighter. But if things go so pear-shaped that I'm actually forced to make attacks, I'm sure I have a few nonmagical daggers lying around that'll work just fine. It's not like creatures in an AMF would have DR/magic or anything.


You cannot have 10 ranks without having 7 levels (which each maximized the skill).
To clarify, you don't have to maximize the skill every level. You can go some levels without investing points in it, provided you catch up on the ranks at a later level.