nWoD fansplat: Dragon: the Inheritance

[One Tin Soldier]

Full Google Doc writeup of Dragon: the Inheritance (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h-o7bWocPX_6vO9PCfVYcCyApJMTudFcZGUCOmjw1Ok/)


Dragons. The word alone brings to mind images of skies darkened by titanic wings, of cities burning so bright that it seems like a second sun, of endless piles of gold and treasure. Of great heroes waging epic battles against ferocious beasts, of teeth like daggers and claws like spears, of hide so thick no sword could pierce it. Of fearful villagers cowering, of kings paying tribute, of might and majesty and power.
Humanity has quite the history with dragons. These beasts are known in myth and legend in every culture around the world. There are plentiful tales from medieval Europe which speak of terrifying reptilian beasts who took their livestock and children as they pleased. The Chinese had their lungs, the godlike creatures who dictated when the rains would fall and the rivers would flood. Native North Americans spoke of the giant serpents in the rivers, shimmering with magic in every color of the rainbow. And the Aztecs revered flying serpentine coatls as servants of the gods. They are not limited to ancient tales, either. Modern fiction and folk tales, our own civilization’s mythology, is practically overflowing with dragons. It is modern tales that have codified the idea of giant treasure hoards and damsels in distress, two of the most iconic aspects of the dragon archetype.
But they are just myths, right? Dinosaur bones and human fears?
Please.
Dragons walk among humankind as they have for millennia. They are mighty creatures, more powerful than mere humans in every way that they feel matters. They are more physically threatening - bigger, stronger, and faster. They have the ability to fly, giving them greater mobility and freedom than even modern humans with their road-dependant cars and bulky, expensive planes. Even humanity’s greatest advantages, their minds and their control of fire, are outmatched by those of the dragons. Even worse for humanity, they know how to hide all too effectively. They clothe themselves in human skin, blending thoroughly into the crowds to evade their pursuers or further their agendas. A human could see a dragon every day at work and never know the difference.
So it comes as something of a surprise that in every story where a dragon is the villain, they are not brought down by armies of righteous villagers or teams of trained soldiers, fighting at great cost to overwhelm the monster. No, the dragon is almost always slain by a lone hero, prevailing via skill, luck, or divine intervention. It doesn’t matter how terrifyingly powerful the dragon is, a lone hero is the one who eventually leads to the dragon’s demise.
And so it is true with dragons in the modern age. Dragons who aren’t careful, die. Dragons who get too powerful, too big for their britches, die. Yes, humans go running, screaming when a dragon passes overhead. But there’s always those few who are instilled with a powerful urge to see that dragon slain.

You are going to die eventually. You can run, you can hide, you can fight back, and you may survive for a time. But you are not going to live forever, so what part of you will remain after everything else is gone? What legacy are you going to leave behind?


Dragon: the Inheritance is a fanmade nWoD game written by me and Xallace. It is not completely finished, but it is complete enough that we feel comfortable making it open for the last stretch before playtesting begins.

And to forestall any comments on the obvious: yes, we are aware of Dragon: the Embers. In fact, part of the reason we made Inheritance was our dissatisfaction with Embers. It is a fine game in its own right, but its not what we wanted out of a Dragon game. To put it simply, we feel that if you are playing a dragon, you should feel awesome, in both the old and new senses of the word. You should feel powerful, mighty, terrifying, like everything is going your way. That way, when the tables are turned and you become the one who is pinned down under the weight of the world, it is all the more frightening.
On the other obvious issue, yes, we are also aware of how similar our Slayers are to Beast's Heroes. I swear, we had the idea first (Or at least before OP introduced them).

The character splats for Dragon are Heritage and Dynasty. Heritage defines what type of dragon you are, your general personality type and what you hoard. Dynasties are social organizations, which defines your primary strategy for keeping yourself alive. Some brief overviews of the Heritages and Dynasties:

Heritages:
Amphiteres: Divine dragons who hoard prestige. Drakes: Poisonous dragons who hoard aesthetic.
Hydra: Nigh-immortal dragons who hoard experiences.
Wyvern: Hungry, destructive dragons who hoard reputation.
Wyrms: Mystical dragons who hoard power.

Dynasties:
Nagaraja: Alchemists and Philosopher-Kings. Survival through knowledge.
Xiuhcoatl: Blood-fueled warrior cult. Survival through strength.
Yinglong: Weather-controlling mafiosos. Survival through resources.
Zalciai: Luck-blessed matriarchal puppet masters. Survival through community.
Zmaj: Sorcerous assassins with a collective messiah complex. Survival through control.

Dragon powers are called Legacies, and they are modifications to the character's draconic form, referred to as the Drakonos. There are Core Legacies, which are on a 1-5 dot rating scale and provide benefits like attribute dots or size points, as well as simple scaling abilities like flight, more powerful natural weapons, flame breath, poison, etc. There are also Auxiliary Legacies, which are more specific powers that fall under the purview of their associated Core Legacy. Some examples of these are more accurate flame breath, improved flying speed, the ability to attack multiple targets at once with Brawl, or even temporary immortality. And finally there is draconic Sorcery, a collection of spells that dragons can use to further enhance their abilities or alter the way that they work.

Dragon's Supernatural Tolerance trait is Kauchaomai, the dragon's supercharged sense of identity that allows them to assume their draconic form. There is no "juice stat" associated with Kauchaomai. Instead, dragon abilities use Willpower, and Kauchaomai gives the dragon extra Willpower to spend.

Dragon's modified Integrity trait is Serenity, which measures how well the dragon lives up to their idealized identity. The primary benefit of high Serenity is reducing the dragon's chances of creating a Slayer.

Dragon's Anchor traits are Ambition and Heart. Ambition is who you would be in a world where you didn't have to hide; Heart is who you are at your most human.


Please use this thread for questions, comments, concerns, and constructive criticism. There is also a sister thread to this one on the Onyx Path forums. Enjoy!

[Almarck]

Alright, so after a few hours of reading on and off, I think I have basic grasp over the general rules but not so much on the specific powers.

I like the idea if only because I like dragons. I liked Embers in its various editions and this project shows promise.

That said, I feel a good default motive for what drives a dragon forward needs to be established and extrapolated. Sorta like how "The Wolf Must Hunt" for Werewolf. It needs a core drive to be the front and center theme. If there is one, I haven't seen it or have failed to see it. In short: I want a good reason to play a dragon aside from the sake of being a dragon. Werewolves have their prey, mages have their mysteries, prometheans have the true dawn, hunters have the vigil.

However, as I have said before, this shows great promise. So, I'll do what I can to provide good feedback, ya?

Other concerns and comments:

-Inability to use Fighting Styles in Draknos. This I find kinda bad if only because I think some fighting styles would be valid to use in draconic form and it'll be eventually happen that you end up creating dragon only fighting styles. Solution: amend the text to say "Most fighting styles may not be used in Drakonos. Fighting styles require the use of fist to fist combat or humanoid posturing may not be used. Other fighting styles, such as Berserker in Hurt Locker that does not rely on humanoid anatomy to use may be used in Drakonos". It's a great way to plan ahead for if you add more content.

-On the note of Drakonos, I feel it's redunant to say that attributes can exceed 5 when in that form. Base attributes in ordinary human form are capped at 5, whereas form bonuses and buffs are already able to break the cap.

-Willpower as a fuel is pretty ingenious. Don't really see it as gamebreaking and I feel it works for defining dragons as beings of unfettered will.

-How does a Kau (that name is so long and hard to remember) 10 dragon work? Do they have impossibility when changing form or a chance die? also, this might be an oversight but it seems that there's no mechanics for shifting out of Drakonos in its own entry. Personally, I would rather that changing form is not a roll but rather an act of will. I mean, a dragon is defined by self image right? Both Anthropos and Drakonos forms are his/her true forms. Why should it be difficult to shift both forms as you get up.? Perhaps maybe tying difficulty to Serenity is a better idea, similar to Werewolves. The more out of balance you are, the longer and more painful the change takes.

-I feel the size bonuses are okay. Another person might call them imbalanced, but I find that suddenly being a valid target for antitank missiles (and thus getting hit by them without a really high penalty) and not being able to use your draconic form in an alleyway is a fair trade for all that health. My only concern is the intentions of the size bonuses that differ based on the Dragon's signature legacy. Also, Fangs of Fafnir needs to provide details on the poison it produces, though you are probably aware of this.

[One Tin Soldier]

Alright, so after a few hours of reading on and off, I think I have basic grasp over the general rules but not so much on the specific powers.

I like the idea if only because I like dragons. I liked Embers in its various editions and this project shows promise.

That said, I feel a good default motive for what drives a dragon forward needs to be established and extrapolated. Sorta like how "The Wolf Must Hunt" for Werewolf. It needs a core drive to be the front and center theme. If there is one, I haven't seen it or have failed to see it. In short: I want a good reason to play a dragon aside from the sake of being a dragon. Werewolves have their prey, mages have their mysteries, prometheans have the true dawn, hunters have the vigil.


However, as I have said before, this shows great promise. So, I'll do what I can to provide good feedback, ya?

Ok, starting here. I think the main reason that it feels missing is because Xallace and I haven't yet been able to put the Theme and Mood into words. We know what they are, mostly, we just haven't been able to get it on paper in a satisfactory way.

But as for what the core drive is, I got to it a little in the intro here on the thread. It's more of a question than a statement, though: What legacy are you going to leave behind? What inheritance can you leave for those who come after you?


Other concerns and comments:

-Inability to use Fighting Styles in Draknos. This I find kinda bad if only because I think some fighting styles would be valid to use in draconic form and it'll be eventually happen that you end up creating dragon only fighting styles. Solution: amend the text to say "Most fighting styles may not be used in Drakonos. Fighting styles require the use of fist to fist combat or humanoid posturing may not be used. Other fighting styles, such as Berserker in Hurt Locker that does not rely on humanoid anatomy to use may be used in Drakonos". It's a great way to plan ahead for if you add more content.

We'll keep that in mind. It is worth noting, though, that a lot of the Bones of the Mountain auxiliaries can fill that role. Inflicting Tilts, enhancing attacks, and providing new options. (And as of right now, they're just as cheap as the fighting styles, if not cheaper.) Still, you have a point about allowing some Styles that would make sense in Drakonos, we'll probably make a note of it.


-On the note of Drakonos, I feel it's redunant to say that attributes can exceed 5 when in that form. Base attributes in ordinary human form are capped at 5, whereas form bonuses and buffs are already able to break the cap.

On the contrary, I think it's good to be specific. A lot of confusion can come about by not specifying whether you can buff beyond the usual cap or not. I know I've had that trouble in games before.


-Willpower as a fuel is pretty ingenious. Don't really see it as gamebreaking and I feel it works for defining dragons as beings of unfettered will.

Yep, given the fluff of Kauchaomai, any fuel stat we thought of would basically just be Willpower, so why not just tie it in? It also has the benefits of making WP regain options more appealing to players - you're going to be going through a lot of it.


-How does a Kau (that name is so long and hard to remember) 10 dragon work? Do they have impossibility when changing form or a chance die? also, this might be an oversight but it seems that there's no mechanics for shifting out of Drakonos in its own entry. Personally, I would rather that changing form is not a roll but rather an act of will. I mean, a dragon is defined by self image right? Both Anthropos and Drakonos forms are his/her true forms. Why should it be difficult to shift both forms as you get up.? Perhaps maybe tying difficulty to Serenity is a better idea, similar to Werewolves. The more out of balance you are, the longer and more painful the change takes.

1) If it helps you to remember, it's pronounced Cow-chow-my. It's Greek, so the spelling can be a bit weird to the English-speaking eye. A lot of the terminology we chose is - maybe we should look into some abbreviations.
2) The idea behind difficulty in going back to Anthropos is that most dragons don't consider the Anthropos to be one of their true forms. Drakonos is the true form - Anthropos is either a disguise to keep them alive or a curse to keep them from their true power, depending on their point of view. The human body just doesn't feel entirely comfortable to most dragons, so the higher your power stat is, the harder it becomes to relinquish that feeling. At Kauchaomai 10, you are at a chance die to transform back to Anthropos.
3) Not putting the mechanics for shifting out in the metamorphosis section is one of those things we didn't catch because we're so familiar with the mechanics already. I'll go rectify that immediately!


-I feel the size bonuses are okay. Another person might call them imbalanced, but I find that suddenly being a valid target for antitank missiles (and thus getting hit by them without a really high penalty) and not being able to use your draconic form in an alleyway is a fair trade for all that health. My only concern is the intentions of the size bonuses that differ based on the Dragon's signature legacy. Also, Fangs of Fafnir needs to provide details on the poison it produces, though you are probably aware of this.

A lot of the powers are still lacking mechanics, and Poison of Fafnir is one of them. On our first pass we just went through and put down the basic idea of each one; one of the big things we need to do to get the game playtest-ready is fill those in. On that note, if you have any suggestions for mechanics for powers that are missing them or ideas for auxiliaries that need to be filled in, by all means go ahead.

[Almarck]

Okay so that stuff makes sense.

Also since it's possible to dramatically fail shifting what's the drawback for failing it on the chance die?

You may just want to put a text in the kau attribute and skill caps stuff in that states the limits can be breaker by using buffs or being in Drakonos if you feel you need to state caps.

Also on the note of powers. A part of me thinks that it might be a good idea to borrow an idea from vampire and make a subset of legacies that combine the use of two other legacies in order to function or benefit from like how Disciplines and Devotions work.

Such as combining a charming legacy with fire breathing to a force creatures damaged by the flames into servants. May not be the best example though.

I also feel that there needs to be a mechanic to encourage growing up the core legacy like requiring it be the highest legacy enabled. I feel that since that it is the legacy that is associated to the core of the dragon's identity it needs to be prioritized above others. Maybe requiring that it be the cap on how other legacies might be raised? So you need to have level 4 before anything else can go above 3. Granted there has to be a better way about going about it.

Also I think sorcery should be handled completely seperate from legacies. Have its own exp costs and systems. Right now it feels thrown in because it functions so differently from other legacies. I mean for one is it supposed to be ritual magic?

[One Tin Soldier]

Okay so that stuff makes sense.

Also since it's possible to dramatically fail shifting what's the drawback for failing it on the chance die?

Remember that without house rules, the only times that you can dramatically fail are on a chance die, or by making a regular failure dramatic in exchange for a Beat. And when you're at a chance die, you stand just as good of a chance of dramatically failing as you do succeeding. I realize what you meant now, since I don't believe we actually put down the specific roll results. I'm rectifying that now. Dramatically failing the roll means that you cannot even attempt to shift back for a day. (Possibly specifying that as after the next time you gain WP through sleep.) A Kauchaomai 10 dragon could easily find themselves incapable of returning to Anthropos for days or even weeks.


Also on the note of powers. A part of me thinks that it might be a good idea to borrow an idea from vampire and make a subset of legacies that combine the use of two other legacies in order to function or benefit from like how Disciplines and Devotions work.

Such as combining a charming legacy with fire breathing to a force creatures damaged by the flames into servants. May not be the best example though.

Eeeeeeeh. That kind of thing is what Sorceries are good for. Most Legacies are straightforward enough that combining them in ways to merit new powers would feel a bit forced to me. I'll keep it in the back of my mind in case I rethink it, though.


I also feel that there needs to be a mechanic to encourage growing up the core legacy like requiring it be the highest legacy enabled. I feel that since that it is the legacy that is associated to the core of the dragon's identity it needs to be prioritized above others. Maybe requiring that it be the cap on how other legacies might be raised? So you need to have level 4 before anything else can go above 3. Granted there has to be a better way about going about it.

I assume that by "core legacy" you're talking about the Unique Legacies, the ones gained from Heritages? That's possible, though it might feel like a bit of a tax on characters that don't particularly want their Unique Legacy. I feel like a lot of players will want to go straight for the coolest ones like Wings of the Heavens or Breath of the Inferno.



Also I think sorcery should be handled completely seperate from legacies. Have its own exp costs and systems. Right now it feels thrown in because it functions so differently from other legacies. I mean for one is it supposed to be ritual magic?

It already does function differently than other legacies, in that the core dots don't do anything aside from give you more auxiliaries, a bit like Rituals in 1e Werewolf. And the mechanical systems also are different, in that they have more generalized WP costs and more specific, spell-like effects. As for differing XP costs, I don't see a reason to make them any more or less expensive than other legacies. And divorcing them from the Legacy system entirely would basically turn them into supercharged Merits.

[Xallace]

And divorcing them from the Legacy system entirely would basically turn them into supercharged Merits.

Which is more-or-less what Geist did with Ceremonies, superpowered ritual merits, so there is precedence. I'm not against a sorcery redesign but I think more discussion is warranted.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm currently reading through this, and I like what I see so far. While I'm still reading through it though, can you tell me if you have any material in there about running this as a LARP? The chances of me actually convince the local LARP scene to give this a try are between 0 and 0.0000000% but if I continue liking what I see, I'd definitely be interested in giving this a shot over the summer.

[Xallace]

I'm currently reading through this, and I like what I see so far. While I'm still reading through it though, can you tell me if you have any material in there about running this as a LARP? The chances of me actually convince the local LARP scene to give this a try are between 0 and 0.0000000% but if I continue liking what I see, I'd definitely be interested in giving this a shot over the summer.

We are unfortunately a very tabletop-focused pair of individuals, so the LARP side is pretty lacking. I can't speak for One Tin Soldier but I'd definitely be open to input on how to provide better material for LARP fans like yourself.

[One Tin Soldier]

We are unfortunately a very tabletop-focused pair of individuals, so the LARP side is pretty lacking. I can't speak for One Tin Soldier but I'd definitely be open to input on how to provide better material for LARP fans like yourself.

Same. I'm not terribly familiar with Mind's Eye Theater, nor do I have the book for it, so I don't know how much work it would be to convert the game into a LARP-able format.

[Almarck]

I'm kinda of the opinion that if some power set functions vastly differently from other powers such as say ritual magic in every other line, it should be separate and be treated as its own thing, independent of the others.

I feel that sorcerery is too grab bag to be a single legacy as well as the above especially since all of them have the same dice pool. But I will understand that it is not on the table yet.


As for incentivizing the growth of the signature legacy of a dragon maybe unlike other legacies you cannot raise it directly. Instead it's growth is dependant on the highest level general legacy you possess. This allows a player to build how they want while their signature powers grow independent of their choices.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, the issue that I'm having right now with this is that I'm a mechanics guy and right now a lot of the crunchy bits are pretty incomplete. I'd like to see these get done asap, because that's going to give me the best idea of what its actually like to be a dragon in this game.

[One Tin Soldier]

As for incentivizing the growth of the signature legacy of a dragon maybe unlike other legacies you cannot raise it directly. Instead it's growth is dependant on the highest level general legacy you possess. This allows a player to build how they want while their signature powers grow independent of their choices.

Hmmm. I do like the idea of incentivizing the unique legacies. Giving them away for "free" would be an interesting tactic, to be sure, especially since it would raise how quickly dragons can become powerful. And the auxiliaries are the really interesting powers anyway,and you'd still need to buy them separately. On the other hand, there can be a lot of weirdness to a system like this. We'll have to think on it.
For the record, the player in me is yelling "YEAH FREE POWERS DO IT."


As for Elricaltovilla's comment, I can promise that one of the big things we're doing right now is filling in those mechanical gaps.

[Xallace]

Just wanted to note that we just made an overhaul to the hoard section(s), with more likely to be added soon.



As for incentivizing the growth of the signature legacy of a dragon maybe unlike other legacies you cannot raise it directly. Instead it's growth is dependant on the highest level general legacy you possess. This allows a player to build how they want while their signature powers grow independent of their choices.

That's actually a really interesting idea. I don't know if we'd have it work exactly like that but it would be kinda neat.


So, the issue that I'm having right now with this is that I'm a mechanics guy and right now a lot of the crunchy bits are pretty incomplete. I'd like to see these get done asap, because that's going to give me the best idea of what its actually like to be a dragon in this game.

Yeah, there are a lot of legacy mechanics missing. We set ourselves up for that one, honestly, given just how many auxiliary legacies there are. But hey, there's a lot of abilities associated with dragons to model, right?

But no worries, we're chugging along with them! Should be able to get a few fully fleshed out this week.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd offer to help, but I'm much more fully versed in Pathfinder and D&D than I am in WoD. Especially since I never got into the whole God Machine Update. I just don't play it much outside of the annual VtM LARP (somebody please get these people to play something else this year!)

[Almarck]

Maybe then the unique legacies work by leveling up based on the number of other legacy dots total you havew. If you have say 20 dots in legacies you get level 5 of your primary.

Meet that threshold, you unlock a level if your primary legacy sort of thing.

Maybe the dynastic legacy is the same way but has slightly higher dot requirements. So it's say 25 ranks in other legacies for 5 while the... breed legacy needs 20 as said before. It also means that transferring from one dynasty to another is a simple matter of trading the unlocked dots of one legacy to the next.


Obviously only dots in general legacies count to the totals.

[One Tin Soldier]

Maybe then the unique legacies work by leveling up based on the number of other legacy dots total you havew. If you have say 20 dots in legacies you get level 5 of your primary.

Meet that threshold, you unlock a level if your primary legacy sort of thing.

Maybe the dynastic legacy is the same way but has slightly higher dot requirements. So it's say 25 ranks in other legacies for 5 while the... breed legacy needs 20 as said before. It also means that transferring from one dynasty to another is a simple matter of trading the unlocked dots of one legacy to the next.


Obviously only dots in general legacies count to the totals.

That option had occurred to me. It does have the benefit of making it a bit less powergamey, since its harder to game the system.

I do think that dynastic legacies should remain buyable by normal XP. They aren't as core to the dragon's sense of self as the unique legacies are.


In an unrelated note, we now have thorough mechanics for Poison of Fafnir.

[Elricaltovilla]

Each dot of this legacy grants the hydra 1 additional point of size in Drakonos (with attendant dot of Health)

Does the extra dot of health only apply to the Hydra's legacy or do all the Drakonos form size increases increase health as well? Its only mentioned in the Immortality of Lernea entry, but the text seems to imply that the extra health is a function of increased size, meaning that each Legacy should increase health (with Radiance of Queztalcoatl and Waters of Hualong gaining 2 dots of health per dot of legacy), Which makes the Hydra's Legacy... not so great at representing the Hydra's supposed immortality.

[Almarck]

On that note I feel Radiance is unimprrsssive given that its core benrfit outside of incraseed health onky works in anthropos. Fix it that the social effefts work in dragon form too because ot makes little sense why it works as given.

also I feel the hydra legacy neess to be simplified in some manner... and possess rules for regrowing heads inherent in drakonos

[One Tin Soldier]

Does the extra dot of health only apply to the Hydra's legacy or do all the Drakonos form size increases increase health as well? Its only mentioned in the Immortality of Lernea entry, but the text seems to imply that the extra health is a function of increased size, meaning that each Legacy should increase health (with Radiance of Queztalcoatl and Waters of Hualong gaining 2 dots of health per dot of legacy), Which makes the Hydra's Legacy... not so great at representing the Hydra's supposed immortality.

That text must be really old. All size increases increase the total health. Hydra immortality comes less from their core legacy, and more from their auxiliaries which grant them superior healing abilities.

But yes, all dragons can end up with large amounts of health, especially the Wyrms and Amphiteres. It's their main way of being hard to kill, since rapid healing is restricted to Hydras and Zalciai. (or rather, groups with Zaltys members)
On that note, we might need to adjust the auxiliaries of both legacies to ensure that they don't overlap too much.

[Almarck]

Posted a reply while you were replying by the way. Anyways, have you figured out how to adjust rapid healig and say , make it distinct from werewolfs healing rules?
Might I suggest that you spend will power to regrenate wounds based on legacy rating?combine with some fastish but not over the top rapid healing. Mayhe 30 minutes per lethal. I mean werewolf healimg is insane but they don't get as many health dots

also about the poison? It seem a little odd but why don't ypu just say it gives the pooisoned conditioon but has some slight differences?

also I didnt check far but have you considered an apply firearms defense effect?

[Elricaltovilla]

I would consider giving Hydras an extra dot of health per rank over and above what they get from their size increases.

I'm at work right now, but when I get home I plan on trying to make a character. I'm thinking a Drake Nagaraja with some points in Breath of the Inferno and Hide of Iron. So if you could focus on getting those done, I'd appreciate it :smalltongue:

[One Tin Soldier]

Posted a reply while you were replying by the way. Anyways, have you figured out how to adjust rapid healig and say , make it distinct from werewolfs healing rules?
Might I suggest that you spend will power to regrenate wounds based on legacy rating?combine with some fastish but not over the top rapid healing. Mayhe 30 minutes per lethal. I mean werewolf healimg is insane but they don't get as many health dots

also about the poison? It seem a little odd but why don't ypu just say it gives the pooisoned conditioon but has some slight differences?

also I didnt check far but have you considered an apply firearms defense effect?

The Poison of Fafnir rules are basically identical to the existing poison rules, I just thought it would be best to spell it all out explicitly. Especially since the existing rules cover such a wide variety of possibilities. (I know I would really like to find some specific examples of poisons to compare against.) And just applying the Poisoned tilt in combat doesn't quite sit right with me, since it would work the same regardless of the legacy's dot rating.

As for healing, it will definitely be different from Werewolf healing. Currently, the best healing that dragons have access to costs 2 WP to give them basic wolf healing for a scene. And that's a 4 dot auxiliary. We'll probably make Hydra healing more potent than Zaltys healing, at the cost of only being able to use it on themselves.

Defense against firearms isn't something we've considered much, since dragons are archetypically more about withstanding the damage than avoiding it. Though there is already a Hide of Iron auxiliary (Kevlar Skin) that gives their armor a ballistic rating, and one of the Hydra auxiliaries could be to make all firearms and similar damage bashing. (like vampires)

As for healing rapidly, it will be fairly different from Werewolf healing.

I would consider giving Hydras an extra dot of health per rank over and above what they get from their size increases.

I'm at work right now, but when I get home I plan on trying to make a character. I'm thinking a Drake Nagaraja with some points in Breath of the Inferno and Hide of Iron. So if you could focus on getting those done, I'd appreciate it :smalltongue:

By all means, go ahead and do so, and let us know what you come up with. As for the legacies, I believe those are the most complete ones. Hide of Iron, at least, only has 2 auxiliaries without full mechanics, and 1 of those is fairly self-explanatory.

[Almarck]

So before I go off and review every power and wee what I'd want, mind if I ask if you'd create a sort of index to sort them all and their key effects? Something just to see where everything is via quick reference. Links and maybe a way to quickly search through them such as using a "tag" of some sort would be great. The idea for this is to make it easy to look up powers and compare.

[One Tin Soldier]

Almarck, we've decided to use your suggestion for Unique Legacies. Dragons now get 1 dot in their core Unique Legacy for every 4 dots in other legacies they possess. To reflect this, we've also reduced the number of core Legacies that dragons start with from 5 to 4. Auxiliaries for Unique Legacies are still purchased normally.

I like this because, while I like the Unique Legacies, I've found that most of the character concepts I've thought of would not be particularly incentivized to buy up their unique legacies. This way, all dragons gradually become better at what their heritage is good at, no matter what legacies they go for. It also makes each Heritage's Drakonos feel more different, with different innate abilities.

EDIT:

So before I go off and review every power and wee what I'd want, mind if I ask if you'd create a sort of index to sort them all and their key effects? Something just to see where everything is via quick reference. Links and maybe a way to quickly search through them such as using a "tag" of some sort would be great. The idea for this is to make it easy to look up powers and compare.

I was just thinking of doing this, actually. Making a quick reference to what each core legacy does. I don't think we can link within the doc, though, that's more of a pdf thing.

On a related note, does anyone know any references for making pdfs, particularly fillable ones? I'd like to make a Dragon character sheet eventually.

[Almarck]

Sadly I have forget how to do fillable pdfs.


Anyways I am glad that the suggestion got accepted. I actually borrowed the idea from how werewolf 2e solved allowing players not investing in their key renown or learning the gifts tied to their moon. I just took the general idea but flipped things around to fit in your unique power structure since you lack an equivalent to Renown.

As for linking legacies maybe you can make a tag and the index or table of contents refers to each power by the tag. Each tag would be a unique number or collection of letters like say FFG For Fafnir Fangs. Just type the letters in the search engine and it'll link you to it like in one of those text only Gamefaqs walkthroughs

Maybe you can do the same for the whole document using a master index in the table of contents.


New notes on powers.
You still have not addressed Radiance of Queztalcoatl only applying in human form.

I think hide of iron might be too valuable. Five armor is pretty strong and very difficult to overcome especially since it also provides its own health bonus. my immediate idea to adjust the numbers is to have the armor increase apply at every odd increase in the legacy and the armor provides free ballistic armor instead of having to buy it in. 3/3 armor at the end. Five would be near insurmountable

[One Tin Soldier]

Lastly, you still have not addressed Radiance of Queztalcoatl only applying in human form.

That's largely because I haven't thought up a solution to the problem yet. That legacy is one of the few that does not have easy mechanics to apply.

It is worth remembering, though, that Drakonos form does not preclude social activity. It would be a bad idea to use humans thanks to Enkindling, yes, but it's doable. And if you're socializing with other dragons or other supernaturals, it might not be a problem. Most dragons will take any excuse to go into Drakonos around each other, so I'd imagine that many dragon social events take place with everyone in that form.
Still, I agree that it needs to have an actual effect outside of social bonuses. I'm just having some trouble figuring that out.

[Almarck]

I've added an issue with bones of the earth in the post above.


anyways I'm looking at Radiance and I am thinking maybe one of its key effects is to apply conditions and distractions in Drakonos. Blinded by glory so to speak.

Also I got am idea for a composure related Legacy.

Earth's Temperance
I am unmoving

The idea is to provide a mental bulwark against psychic attacks. Whilst simulanteously allowing the patience to pay off in some manner. Maybe having divination powers would also fit in, could also do some sort of sense extentions powers to say feel the area around you.

[One Tin Soldier]

In regards to Hide of Iron: feature, not bug. A dragon with five dots in the "hard to hurt" legacy should be harder to injure than some shmuck in full plate. (Full plate gives 4/2 armor)


I've added an issue with bones of the earth in the post above.


anyways I'm looking at Radiance and I am thinking maybe one of its key effects is to apply conditions and distractions in Drakonos. Blinded by glory so to speak.

That sounds reasonable.


Also I got am idea for a composure related Legacy.

Earth's Temperance
I am unmoving

The idea is to provide a mental bulwark against psychic attacks. Whilst simulanteously allowing the patience to pay off in some manner. Maybe having divination powers would also fit in, could also do some sort of sense extentions powers to say feel the area around you.

I've considered something like this before, but any legacy that would increase the dragon's WP pool strikes me as troublesome to include. Besides, we already have a Hide of Iron legacy that improves mental defenses. Similarly, divination falls under Sorcery.

[Almarck]

I suppose but I do think it needs adjusting because dragons can invest in the toughness discipline too easily. I suppose that might be fine is given anti armor is a thing.
Such a shame though about the composure thing. Kinda would have liked there to be more... stuff, more legacies of some sort.


Anyways I might have missed this but are there any particular banes or key weaknesses inherit to being a dragon aside from say increased size.

[One Tin Soldier]

I suppose but I do think it needs adjusting because dragons can invest in the toughness discipline too easily. I suppose that might be fine is given anti armor is a thing.
Such a shame though about the composure thing. Kinda would have liked there to be more... stuff, more legacies of some sort.

And as of this version, any Mage worth the name runs around with 3 or more armor up at all times.
Based on our experience with armor powers in other games, it feels balanced. There's a Sin-Eater in one of our games who runs around with 9 armor. 5 is nothing all that special.


Anyways I might have missed this but are there any particular banes or key weaknesses inherit to being a dragon aside from say increased size.

Slayers. Any attack made by a slayer that uses a weapon deals Agg damage, as fate guides their strikes into the most damaging possible spot. The Drakonis form also makes it a lot easier to create slayers in the first place.
If you're not a slayer, you have to whittle through their health like anyone else. Unless you're dealing with a Tiamat in their spirit form; those guys have bans and banes like any other ephemeral being.

[Xallace]

Anyways I might have missed this but are there any particular banes or key weaknesses inherit to being a dragon aside from say increased size.

There are no material or environmental sorts of weaknesses for dragons. Instead, slayers always deal Agg with manufactured weapons.

[Almarck]

Except that's 1e armor which was a penalty to attacks and not damage reduction like in 2e. A better comparison would be to examine werewolf and vampire armor powers from current edition . (Can't speak about vampire, but werewolf has 2/2 armor for taking a 5 dot merit however it's form specific and doesn't get higher. There's also an armor buff but it's success determines magnitude, restricted only to Rahu and requires per turn 1 essence upkeep to run. So it's both expensive and luck based. Then again I suppose these are offset by the fact werewolves always heal so fast. Their defenses need to be low or expensive or else they overwhelm everything). Granted I understand your point but I think applying examples from the previous edition do not work as intended.

Admittedly I am kinda disappointed there's no kryptonite items but I suppose that is due to the lack of there being a universal weakness in fiction.

[One Tin Soldier]

2e Vampire Resilience does give armor equal to dots, though. They just have to spend more Vitae on it.

And not giving dragons a universal weakness was a deliberate design choice. Dragons aren't slain by specific substances wielded by just anyone; they're slain by the knight's ordinary spear or the poison left in the mutton.

[Almarck]

Right. Well I suppose being big an super tough is fine and not to too gamebreaking given that focusing on armor growth means not so much focus is given to say claws or flying or fire breathing. besides they don't have other as many other defenses now that I think about. That increased size and all that gives them a rather unique weakness I keep being fold of pointing out.

Oh was it also a choice to forgo long dragons? I take it they were folded in with other breeds.

One archetype of dragon I really want to run is the ace pilot. really good and fast flying.

[One Tin Soldier]

Right. Well I suppose being big an super tough is fine and not to too gamebreaking given that focusing on armor growth means not so much focus is given to say claws or flying or fire breathing. besides they don't have other as many other defenses now that I think about. That increased size and all that...

Oh was it also a choice to forgo long dragons? I take it they were folded in with other breeds.

One archetype of dragon I really want to run is the ace pilot. really good and fast flying.

Take another look at the Wyrm heritage. :smallwink:

And I agree, a flying-focused dragon would be fun. Hands over the controls to his Spurned copilot, jumps out of the plane, flies alongside it. Outpace it, even, if they have the True Freedom auxiliary.

[Almarck]

And then do dog fights top gun style. Except with fire breath instead of machine guns and missiles...

And wyrm didn't strike me as lung for some reason. I guess it has to do with dragon terminology being all over the place on a wide variety of things.

Hm. Anyways everything feels completion but needs correction and filling in. Sadly I can't help but feel there are not enough general legacies.




Edit:

So now, what I really want to do is create a fighting style for Drakonos only. The idea I have is pretty weird: It requires the armor, claws, wings, and fire breath Legacies and basically it allows comboing certain aspects of one legacy to the next.

Notable abilities included the following:
-Armor + Flight = Meteoric Divebomb
-Fire + Claws = Allowing your claws to inflict fire damage instead of physical damage.
-Fire + Armor = Self immoliation for damage to other creatures.


Granted, the more I think about it, the more I realize such abilities should be independent of a fighting style.

Hm, does the breath weapon add the +3 bonus to attack because it's a full burst?


Aditionally: How does Eyes of Eternity work by doubling the effectiveness of one sense? I would argue that it needs something... more thematic than just increasing perception based dice pools. Also, perception is increased by Wits anyways. And isn't the Aura Sight thing no longer being supported?

Also, for suggestions, perhaps the "Twilight vision" would be good there.

[One Tin Soldier]

I have further fleshed out the mechanics of Breath of the Inferno and Wings of the Heavens, both core legacy and several auxiliaries.

EDIT: reply

So now, what I really want to do is create a fighting style for Drakonos only. The idea I have is pretty weird: It requires the armor, claws, wings, and fire breath Legacies and basically it allows comboing certain aspects of one legacy to the next.

Notable abilities included the following:
-Armor + Flight = Meteoric Divebomb
-Fire + Claws = Allowing your claws to inflict fire damage instead of physical damage.
-Fire + Armor = Self immoliation for damage to other creatures.


Granted, the more I think about it, the more I realize such abilities should be independent of a fighting style.

Hm, does the breath weapon add the +3 bonus to attack because it's a full burst?


Aditionally: How does Eyes of Eternity work by doubling the effectiveness of one sense? I would argue that it needs something... more thematic than just increasing perception based dice pools. Also, perception is increased by Wits anyways. And isn't the Aura Sight thing no longer being supported?

Also, for suggestions, perhaps the "Twilight vision" would be good there.

We do like the idea of Drakonos-based fighting styles, and in fact have made a mention of them here and there, but we have not yet gotten around to actually writing any up. Your suggestions have some merit. I particularly like the idea of styles based around flight, fire, and size.

As of now, the fire breath does not add +3 to the roll. I have thought about it, however, and might adjust that during playtesting if the dice pools seem consistently too small.

I plan to write down specific effects for each sense for Eyes of Eternity, so you essentially pick up a new option from the list with each dot. I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Aura sight is at least sort of a thing still, based on what I've read in Vampire and Demon. It's mechanics are less universal, however, which is weird given that 2e has been trending towards generalized mechanics. At any rate, the ability will allow the dragon to read a target's mood, fears, Vice/Ambition, supernatural status, etc.

[Almarck]

The problem I have with the Drakonos based fighting styles is that.... when you combine them into a coherent style, wouldn't it just be easier to classify them as Aux legacies dependent on the user has rather than a list of merits to choose from? I mean, sure, I like the idea of fighting styles, but if you link them to a legacy requirement, the point of some of them ends up falling short.

You might not want to quote the bellow. I kinda went crazy.



Also, I've been doing some theory crafting involving a fight between a werewolf and a dragon. Vampire was not thought up due to well, fire damage and I know less about it.

It was an interesting scenario involving combat speced werewolf against an equally combat oriented dragon. Both have 3-5 "Renown"/"Legacies" maxed. Strength, Rage, and Shaping with Honor, Glory, and Purity against Claws, Armor, Fire Breath, and Wings. A couple of extra merits and 6 in the Power stat. Both are in combat forms and for the purposes of the scenario ignoring special or restricted legacies or auspice gifts.

The dragon obviously had way better stats, better mobility, better weapons and better armor. And firebreathing provided a good ranged option for say dive bombs

The werewolf might not have had as good stats but was a difficult opponent to face. Mostly this was due to atleast having a comparable weapon and armor values however this was only so long as the werewolf could spend as much essence nessesary to perform the task and the fact the werewolf had the regen all mechanic. Add in the fact the dragon could not use silver weapons, nor any of his agg damage powers (because werewolves treat those as lethal unless it's a bane) and it was a tough fight.

The fight basically boiled down to this, assuming no one ran away, could the dragon get lucky enough to deal enough damage to cause his attacks to roll into aggravated damage before the werewolf more consistently dealt damage? It really came down to the dice exploding several times in a row for the dragon, mostly because of Berseker's Might mandating that the dragon needed to roll damage equal to +5 of the werewolf's health to make any sort of lasting damage.

One on one, the dragon stands a better chance of losing, atleast in the hypothetical scenario I provided. Obviously the dragon would have fared better if he had some sort of healing powers, such as by being a hydra, but then there would have been needing to factor how it would have gone with say a Rahu or Irraka.

Really, the fight could go either way.

The werewolf had more resources to spend, but also had to expend resources faster to keep pace. It'd take roughly 6 turns for him to dry up if he used alot of buffs to keep up. The dragon had more consistent staying power in this regard, not needing to expend resources to use every power every turn, but he had less energy to spend.

The scenario taught me a few things that I think are kinda relevant:

-The cost of making a combat centric werewolf and a combat centric dragon are more or less the same and lead to comparable stats, at least to the point neither really has much of an advantage, atleast as far as magic is concerned. So kudos on that. However, it does take slightly more work for the dragon to build up a stronger character than the werewolf (investing in merits, maxing out the Bones legacy and getting that one Aux).


-Agg damage doesn't seem as frightening anymore since there seems to be quite a few ways to reduce it. Plus, I'm actually thinking it'd be better if Agg damage came slightly sooner, maybe 4 dots rather than 5.

-Dragons need an armor piercing power. Granted, such a power would not have helped against the werewolf (the damage reduction power was not considered armor, just reducing the damage), but I think that a dragon should probably be able to destroy tanks or fighter jets with their claws. It also would have helped the dragon creatively destroy the environment to provide tactical edges. So, I'd say as a bones Aux "Shred: Ignore one point of hardness or general armor per dot in Legacy. And deal extra damage to objects and structures equal to dots in Legacy"

-The wings thing provides no bonus to defense unless we're dealing with a naturally weak dex character or the dragon runs Eyes in which case they use their wits. Oddly, unless I am reading things wrong, the most reasonable use of this power is to just make your shooting attacks better in Anthropos, because Dexterity is not as important when you're well, that big. In either case, I think switching Serpent's Grace to "Use Dexterity if higher as defense by spending X WP" might be a good idea.

[One Tin Soldier]

The problem I have with the Drakonos based fighting styles is that.... when you combine them into a coherent style, wouldn't it just be easier to classify them as Aux legacies dependent on the user has rather than a list of merits to choose from? I mean, sure, I like the idea of fighting styles, but if you link them to a legacy requirement, the point of some of them ends up falling short.

You might not want to quote the bellow. I kinda went crazy.
*snip*

You do have a point, but I think that there is room for Fighting Styles alongside of Auxiliaries. We just need to be clear that Auxiliaries enhance the abilities themselves, while Fighting Styles give you more options on what to do with those abilities. For example, I'm imagining a maneuver that allows the dragon's fire breath to give a big bonus to Intimidation checks, because they know how to use it to maximum psychological effect. Or a dive bomb maneuver, that allows the dragon to use their momentum to greater effect while flying. That kind of thing. And one that allows you to make use of your bigger size could be used by any dragon, as long as they're bigger than their opponent.
Part of the reason is, so far we've managed to keep a consistent number of auxiliaries for each legacy, and adding on more just as we think of them would feel awkward.

As for the fight scenario you laid out, it sounds like everything went according to plan. A Dragon's main strength is raw stats, while Werewolves get superior healing and trickier Gifts. If it comes down to "who rolls better" to determine the victor, then we've done our job.

Armor Piercing is the core benefit that Wyverns get, so if you want a dragon who can plausibly bring down jet fighters, build one of them.

I did realize that Serpent's Grace does improve a dragon's Defense. If applying Defense to Firearms, giving the higher of Wits or Dex to Defense, and/or providing a flat bonus to Defense would go anywhere, it's there. I'm not sure which exactly we want to go with, but it probably won't cost WP.

[Almarck]

I was planning on running a drake anyways, so okay.

Hm, I'd say that Serpent's Grace could have a scalable benefit. Unlocking it and activating Wings lets you use Higher of Wits or Dex. But at say 4 dots, you can spend 1 WP to allow def to go against firearms.

Have you considered my proposal to making Agg damage easier to get?




It was an interesting scenario, kinda like something that'd belong in an epic story: Unstoppable Predator Versus Winged Tyrant.

Granted, the dragon was not favored; he just can't hurt the werewolf well enough and it could have been a whole lot worse. I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the dragon would flatout lose if the werewolf was in Death Rage... then again Death Rage werewolves are so terrifying in the new edition since they can freely spend essence for a number of gifts and are avoided solely because the drawback is so immense. In such a scenario, the dragon has no choice but to run away, since the werewolf no longer has to worry about expending resources to keep going.

In a teamfight odds would be better, of course because dragons have AoEs and can focus fire werewolves into Agg, but man, one on one is almost unfair.

[One Tin Soldier]

Upon reviewing Immortality of Lernea, the Hydra unique legacy, we decided that we wanted to rework it into something better reflecting their innate resilience. We had trouble tying that into the "multiple heads" aspect, however, so we decided to split it in two. The hydra unique legacy is now all about their declaration of I am alive, and the multiple heads part is being moved into a new general legacy, Heads of Wise Counsel, which grants Intelligence dots. We're still thinking of ideas for what other effect the core of Heads of Wise Counsel should give, and input would be appreciated.

[Almarck]

So, on thinking on it, the core benefit of having multiple heads might well be to take and multitask thoughts at the same time. This means say, allowing the character to perform purely mental tasks such as research in half the time with two heads (or having one head just busy off paying attention to something else).

Also, I keep for some reason thinking of telekinesis and other "psychic powers" would be a good idea for you know, the Legacy about mental powers... which sadly does mean that it clashes with Sorcery.

I also think having the ability to use the "multihead" Legacy to grant alternate forms is a viable plan. Which again clashes with Sorcery...

Sorry, but I keep coming to the conclusion a bunch of things in Sorcery might be better used elsewhere.




On a completely unrelated note, I ended up getting it in my head today to think of a weird legacy that involves the dragon launching spikes either from the mouth, tail, or wings in some manner. The idea was that the Dexterity bonus legacy provided no benefit on its own and firearms were useless to a Drakonos, by design, of course. Yet I felt that something could be done to allow more combat options than just brawl and Firebreath relies on Kau which means that starting players will have to be in melee by default.

So, yeah. My solution: Dexterity + Firearms to make a shooting attack while a dragon.

Core is self explanatory, but the Aux features could be variations on burst and range. Maybe given certain dice tricks. While the Breath will have likely stronger innate elemental damage, but the spikes are more subtle. And for poisonous dragons, they provide another vector to launch poison through.

Maybe doesn't have to be spikes (could be ice, razorsharp scales, ect.) It just has to be a projectile weapon. I don't know; what do you think of this plan?

[Elricaltovilla]

I have some friends who I've shared this with that seem interested in giving it a try. I'd be happy to collect some feedback for you all, and if you want some help with Legacy stuff I can see what I can come up with.

[One Tin Soldier]

So, on thinking on it, the core benefit of having multiple heads might well be to take and multitask thoughts at the same time. This means say, allowing the character to perform purely mental tasks such as research in half the time with two heads (or having one head just busy off paying attention to something else).

Also, I keep for some reason thinking of telekinesis and other "psychic powers" would be a good idea for you know, the Legacy about mental powers... which sadly does mean that it clashes with Sorcery.

I also think having the ability to use the "multihead" Legacy to grant alternate forms is a viable plan. Which again clashes with Sorcery...

Sorry, but I keep coming to the conclusion a bunch of things in Sorcery might be better used elsewhere.


Suggestions noted. If an auxiliary fits better in Heads of Wise Counsel than Sorcery, then we can just move them and replace them with something else. We've done it before, and there's nothing stopping us from doing it again.
If you want other avenues of thought, the "metaphorical aspect" to the Legacy appears to be teamwork, as opposed to the "literal aspect" of brainpower. (Most legacies follow this pattern for their auxiliaries, though it's most evident in Wings of the Heavens.)



On a completely unrelated note, I ended up getting it in my head today to think of a weird legacy that involves the dragon launching spikes either from the mouth, tail, or wings in some manner. The idea was that the Dexterity bonus legacy provided no benefit on its own and firearms were useless to a Drakonos, by design, of course. Yet I felt that something could be done to allow more combat options than just brawl and Firebreath relies on Kau which means that starting players will have to be in melee by default.

So, yeah. My solution: Dexterity + Firearms to make a shooting attack while a dragon.

Core is self explanatory, but the Aux features could be variations on burst and range. Maybe given certain dice tricks. While the Breath will have likely stronger innate elemental damage, but the spikes are more subtle. And for poisonous dragons, they provide another vector to launch poison through.

Maybe doesn't have to be spikes (could be ice, razorsharp scales, ect.) It just has to be a projectile weapon. I don't know; what do you think of this plan?

Maybe, though it feels a little off. My thought on Firearms is that if a character wants to make use of it, they're best off staying in Anthropos and activating Wings of the Heavens individually. Such a character can still be quite scary, especially since I've written up Serpent's Grace as allowing Defense vs. Firearms. In fact, it was the thought of such a character that led us to specify that you don't have to activate an entire Legacy just to get the attribute boost, or else you'd get characters growing wings to become better at shooting people.


I have some friends who I've shared this with that seem interested in giving it a try. I'd be happy to collect some feedback for you all, and if you want some help with Legacy stuff I can see what I can come up with.

By all means, do so. They're free to come here and post too, for that matter.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll try and get them to post in this thread, but I've been trying to get my friends on GitP for years and it hasn't worked yet.

[Almarck]

Well, other suggestions for "Brainpower" things involve conjuring new languages or skills the character doesn't really possess on the fly. Or augmenting existing skill rolls by adding dicetricks of some sort (representing heightened prowess. Encyclopedic knowledge comes to mind. Another might be to self fracture your mind a la Schism in D&D


As for the legacy about shooting, while I get that guns while using augmented Anthropos is a thing, shooting focused characters would still lack an option to use Drakonos while retaining their firearms skill, which is the point of the suggested legacy. Also, it allows a ranged option that is not completely shut down by fire immune opponents (granted Breath as written it bypasses armor since it's a fire damage attack).

Besides, some dragon types are meant to be more built to ranged combat over melee and not all dragons will use fire to engage at a distance. I suppose if the firearms thing bothers you, you could just use Athletics...

[One Tin Soldier]

Well, other suggestions for "Brainpower" things involve conjuring new languages or skills the character doesn't really possess on the fly. Or augmenting existing skill rolls by adding dicetricks of some sort (representing heightened prowess. Encyclopedic knowledge comes to mind. Another might be to self fracture your mind a la Schism in D&D


As for the legacy about shooting, while I get that guns while using augmented Anthropos is a thing, shooting focused characters would still lack an option to use Drakonos while retaining their firearms skill, which is the point of the suggested legacy. Also, it allows a ranged option that is not completely shut down by fire immune opponents (granted Breath as written it bypasses armor since it's a fire damage attack).

Besides, some dragon types are meant to be more built to ranged combat over melee and not all dragons will use fire to engage at a distance. I suppose if the firearms thing bothers you, you could just use Athletics...

I mean, it's not the Firearms part that bothers me. Honestly, it mostly just reminds me of one of the sillier powers in Dragon: the Embers. Shooting spines doesn't really strike me as an iconicly draconic thing, especially once you discount D&D and other modern fantasy references.

[Almarck]

Ah, I see. Reasonable, granted, I do feel something needs to be put in. Spikes of bone or ice seemed appropriate and more of a natural weapon sort of thing.


I do feel Fangs of Fafnir using dragons should probably be able to spit poison at a range assuming it has not already been put already. But that's mostly from me thinking of spitting cobras. But yeah spiktting spikes is not normally aasociated with dragons. So I guess there's no point.


By the way. What is the problem with resolve or composure boosting legacies? Aside from increased willpower that is?

[One Tin Soldier]

By the way. What is the problem with resolve or composure boosting legacies? Aside from increased willpower that is?

That's it, really. Which, now that I've thought on it some more, has an easy fix: adding more Resolve or Composure dots increases your maximum WP rating, but not your current WP pool. It could still be abused, but doing so would require the dragon to stay in Drakonos for an extended period of time.

So really, what we would need is actual concepts for the Legacies aside from the stat boosts. And just mental resistance feels like too little. Though I think the declaration for for the Composure one would be I am in control.

EDIT: Oh, and Drakes can spit poison by default. We could modify auxiliaries so that one of them increases the range of the spit, though.

[Almarck]

I'm thinking resolve would not only work at providing resistance but it's key effect should be that it also undermines the weaknesses and resolve of others.

The other side is also allowing the dragon to over commit to things.. maybe burn willpower for effects and maybe allowing the use red to survive even when he otherwise should be dead. Unbreakable Will. The power to force demands even when sanity and reason would fail.


Composure also does resistance and maybe holistic sort of things. Perhaps consider limited self healing or internal balancing act. As for tangible benefits I would think forcing counter attacks and reflecting mental powers when passed would be cool. An alternative might be to allow the dragon to act to aid others. Where as resolve is about unwavering acts of will composure should be about creative focused acts of command.

[Xallace]

I actually thought Graciousness of the Host would be a good fit for a Composure boost. It's an older general legacy I had thought of that is based on the virtue of good hospitality. Being a good host has been a big thing in a lot of cultures across the world and at various points in time, and it would make sense for a social dragon.

More to the point, I think a good way to do the Composure boost would be that each dot in the legacy grants a +1 bonus to Composure dice pools and Composure used as a resistance trait, rather than simply adding dots. That way you don't worry about the abuseable Willpower increase at all.

[Almarck]

Fascinating. And I suppose it works. My only concern is well how would the sub legacies be themed?


Also I've been thinking. Maybe fire breath should be concerned the resolve boosting legacy. This idea came as a result that breath seems to be on alone on the general legacies as it generates no attribute bonuses that are passive and is very active. Maybe change stamina in the attack roll for resolve


The other alternative would be to add more nonattrinute boosting legacies while I am sure will happen eventually.

[GorinichSerpant]

Manticores shoot spines out of their tails so there isn't absolutely-no-basis for a spine shooting legacy. It dues however mean that manticores are really hairy dragons.

[One Tin Soldier]

Manticores shoot spines out of their tails so there isn't absolutely-no-basis for a spine shooting legacy. It dues however mean that manticores are really hairy dragons.

You've got a point there. And we are in the middle of adjusting Hyrda fluff to be a bit more chimera-y, so that even fits, along with our general Greek theme. Hmmmmm. Spines of the Manticore... (Also, welcome to the thread. It's nice to get more peoples' input.)

At the very least, I'd like to get the cores for Immortality of Lerna and Heads of Wise Council down before I work on any other new Legacies. There's also the factor of, if we roll with every suggestion we get, we'll wind up utterly swamped in Legacies.

Adding Resolve to Breath of the Inferno? The thought had occurred to me. It would fix the "problem" of Breath of the Inferno being the only non-attribute-giving General Legacy aside from Sorcery. And making the roll resolve-based would also make the somewhat odd synergy between Hide of Iron and Breath of the Inferno go away. In that case, I would also like to change Sorcery so that the spells all use different diepools, not just Resolve + Kau. (Which I might do anyway.)

Xallace? Thoughts?

EDIT
Two new developments on the meta side of things.
1) I figured out how to do bookmarks in the doc, so now everything is bookmarked, including individual legacies.
2) A friend of ours has made a bare bones character sheet (https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpf1/v/t59.2708-21/11093618_10155353608045481_2087197407_n.pdf/Dragon-character-sheet-no-forms.pdf?oh=6fbfde1f5e7d58702e6016743924a264&oe=5516638F&dl=1), which you are free to use.

[Almarck]

For immortality, maybe consider a quick conversion of willpower into wounds healed system. The healing gets more efficient and powerful as it levels up.either that or a passive healing equivalent.

As for new legacies and such you'll eventually reach point where you don't need to add much more.


Anyways, i got an idea. Maybe what you could do is put an open request on this thread for people to build and stat out some aux legacies. Then you just take what you like and save work that way

[One Tin Soldier]

For immortality, maybe consider a quick conversion of willpower into wounds healed system. The healing gets more efficient and powerful as it levels up.either that or a passive healing equivalent.

As for new legacies and such you'll eventually reach point where you don't need to add much more.


Anyways, i got an idea. Maybe what you could do is put an open request on this thread for people to build and stat out some aux legacies. Then you just take what you like and save work that way

Of course, the moment I go to edit my previous post. :smalltongue:

Pretty much any core tankyness we add to the Hydrae is probably going to boil down to healing, so that sounds reasonable. The question is going to be how to scale it in such a way that it's functional without being too complex or overpowered. I'm sure we'll figure something out.

If you or anyone else here wants to make some Aux legacies, go for it. I've mentioned before that we're missing several, so doing those first would be preferable, but any of them would be good to have. Besides, we expect players to occasionally make up their own auxiliaries, so this would be a good test for that.

[Almarck]

Well my only hesitancy to healing right now is currently the fact that we use willpower as the primary resource. In a sense it means dragons get a simple and consistent way to recharge.... but at the same time have the smallest batteries in the supernatural world.

A high end dragon is locking at about 30 will points without planning to max out resolve and comp as a priority. Other supernaturals usually have double that ammount, the pool does not need to worry about raising other stats, allows burning more resources faster, and is not the same pool used for willpower. At the early game a willpower focused dragon will have good resources but seems liable to fall behind keeping up in my view. Once it gets to power stat 3 I think. Mostly as a result of the will spending llimits progressing so slowly compared to other splats. Not a bad thing but an observation.

Anyways given that immortality is tied to a single type of dragon and is raised only as a side effect of raising other legacies, I think I am fine with it doing about 1 lethal per point of will power and getting much more cosf effective to 5 lethal at maxed out for 1 wp and healing 1 aggravated for maybe 3 willpower at rank 4. Your thoughts?


Are there any key legacies you want for us to flesh out for you? Specifics will help me since I work best when someone paints the target.

[One Tin Soldier]

Well my only hesitancy to healing right now is currently the fact that we use willpower as the primary resource. In a sense it means dragons get a simple and consistent way to recharge.... but at the same time have the smallest batteries in the supernatural world.

A high end dragon is locking at about 30 will points without planning to max out resolve and comp as a priority. Other supernaturals usually have double that ammount, the pool does not need to worry about raising other stats, allows burning more resources faster, and is not the same pool used for willpower. At the early game a willpower focused dragon will have good resources but seems liable to fall behind keeping up in my view. Once it gets to power stat 3 I think. Mostly as a result of the will spending llimits progressing so slowly compared to other splats. Not a bad thing but an observation.

Anyways given that immortality is tied to a single type of dragon and is raised only as a side effect of raising other legacies, I think I am fine with it doing about 1 lethal per point of will power and getting much more cosf effective to 5 lethal at maxed out for 1 wp and healing 1 aggravated for maybe 3 willpower at rank 4. Your thoughts?


Are there any key legacies you want for us to flesh out for you? Specifics will help me since I work best when someone paints the target.

The size of Willpower pools, how often they get run out, the efficacy of WP regain options, and the cost-benefit analysis of spending it on Legacies vs. regular rolls are all things that we plan to do some testing on. The "tuning knobs" we have on it are the amount of WP gained from Kauchaomai and the amount regained from Hoards. It's also good to remember that dragons have two ways to refresh their entire pool, so keeping those options tempting is another design goal, without making them so tempting that someone goes for it every chapter.

The option you present for Hydra healing is one of the ones I was considering, alongside giving them flat healing (1 wp for 2L/3B or 4B) and 3 size per dot. Which, incidentally, would put the maximum dragon size at "slighter smaller than an Airbus."

[Almarck]

I'm of the opinion that healing powers should account for different damage types in the Wod System and thus go up and down as the needs arise with costs adjusting.

And no doubt that because of how... unusual the power system is that it has quirks not seen before in other systems. Quite fascinating. I only ever seen the "More than Human" or "WoD - Supers" thing to use willpower as a supernatural resource for a major template.

Anyways, any specific legacy things you want me to work on tommorrow?

[Amechra]

Bones of the Mountain:

Shredding Iron Like Paper (•••••)
A dragon with this legacy can splinter walls with a casual shrug and smash concrete like porcelain.
While in Drakonos, their attacks ignore all mundane Armor and deal Aggravated damage to objects. In addition, whenever they spend Willpower on a Brawl attack, they also inflict either the Arm Wrack or Leg Wrack Tilts, crushing bones with a flick of their tails; Slayers are immune to this latter ability, fate ensuring that they're made of stiffer stuff.

Heads of Wise Counsel:

•: Your memory becomes perfect (Eidetic Memory merit while you're in Drakonos?)
••: Go all Sherlock Holmes; learn stuff about people at a glance.

Are these satisfactory?

[One Tin Soldier]

Bones of the Mountain:

Shredding Iron Like Paper (•••••)
A dragon with this legacy can splinter walls with a casual shrug and smash concrete like porcelain.
While in Drakonos, their attacks ignore all mundane Armor and deal Aggravated damage to objects. In addition, whenever they spend Willpower on a Brawl attack, they also inflict either the Arm Wrack or Leg Wrack Tilts, crushing bones with a flick of their tails; Slayers are immune to this latter ability, fate ensuring that they're made of stiffer stuff.

This one would be great if it's effects weren't already covered by Hunger of Nidhogg and a couple other Bones of the Mountain auxiliaries.


Heads of Wise Counsel:

•: Your memory becomes perfect (Eidetic Memory merit while you're in Drakonos?)

Great idea, we'll probably include it.


••: Go all Sherlock Holmes; learn stuff about people at a glance.

Basically already covered by an Eyes of Eternity auxiliary.

[Xallace]

Woaaah, when'd we get a character sheet? That's awesome!

I am on the fence about Resolve for Breath. I could see it working, but I feel like Breath is pretty good how it is. I dunno, let's give it some more thought.

Also Amechra that stuff looks great, but like Soldier a bit of that is covered already. On the other hand, that stuff that "covers" it a) hasn't been written yet, b) is only available to one heritage. I don't think it'd be too bad a legacy, actually, if you're a wyvern you just get it a little quicker and more cheaply from your Unique.

Edit: Can we put a link to the character sheet in the document? With attribution to original creator of course.

Edit2: A full character sheet for the game may need a second side for Drakonos attributes and a place to put auxiliaries. But I'm still in awe of how cool it is that we have a character sheet now.

[Elricaltovilla]

Here are some rough ideas for Auxiliary Legacies. I'm just hoping to help you guys fill in some of the missing Auxiliary Legacies.


(••••) Form a pact with an individual mortal. While this pact persists, they become immune to Enkindling by you and can detect potential slayers or other threats to your safety.



(•) Ignore wound penalties while in Drakonos
(•) Spend WP to reduce incoming damage type by one (2 WP L>B, 3 WP A>L)
(•••) Spend WP to remove Conditions/Tilts by shedding skin
(•••••) Spend WP to gain Regeneration (like a Werewolf), but gain vulnerability to fire (Like a Vampire)
(•••••) Separate your heart from your body to allow you to come back from destruction, with help.



(•) Do lethal damage with Brawl while in Anthropos. (Does Drakonos form do lethal damage with brawl?)



(••) Gain bonuses to buying and selling valuable items.



(•••••) Use Brawl to attempt to swallow a target whole, potentially killing them.

[Almarck]

I would want the fire breathing legacy to work off resolve because while the legacy as is works, it currently has no attribute boosts making it an exception to existing legacies and that in order to use it well another legacy has to be used Rahe than it being self sufficient when taken.




Unrelated,the above, suggestion for the hydra core:

Immortality of Letna: reflexively spend 1 willpower to heal lethal or bashing damage equal to dots in this legacy. This healing can mend tilts, even tilts caused by aggravated damage (such as limbloss). Though healing tilts caused by aggravated damage requires that the damage be healed through other means before the recovery can take effect.

At 5th dot, lerna's immortality may heal 1 aggravated damage per point of will power spent.

Lerna's immortality may only be used once per turn

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll throw my support behind the Flames legacy boosting Resolve as well. It makes sense that dragons should be able to boost up their stats like that in Drakonos, and I'm sure there's ways to prevent it from being abused for Willpower.

I'd also like to suggest again that Immortality of Lernea give Hydras an extra health dot in addition to the free one they get for sizing up. It would keep them on par with the bigger dragons, and fits their "hard to kill" theme.

[Xallace]

OK, I'm starting to like Breath of the Inferno boosting Resolve and changing the effects so that they key on Resolve. We may have to change a little fluff on that but "I am destructive" was always just something of a placeholder anyway.

On that note though I think boosting Resolve should work the same way I suggested for a Composure boost: Each dot adds +1 to Resolve rolls and situations where Resolve is used as a resistance trait, instead of simply adding dots. That way we don't have to worry about everyone taking it for a cheap Willpower pool boost.

On the topic of Immortality of Lerna, I'm all for self-healing as the core. One addendum: the Agg healing ought to be an auxiliary, and it should be limited in that it cannot heal Agg from attacks by Slayers. Otherwise the best way to survive Slayers is just "be a hydra," and we don't want that.

Extra health could work to fill in another auxiliary slot.

[One Tin Soldier]

OK, I'm starting to like Breath of the Inferno boosting Resolve and changing the effects so that they key on Resolve. We may have to change a little fluff on that but "I am destructive" was always just something of a placeholder anyway.

On that note though I think boosting Resolve should work the same way I suggested for a Composure boost: Each dot adds +1 to Resolve rolls and situations where Resolve is used as a resistance trait, instead of simply adding dots. That way we don't have to worry about everyone taking it for a cheap Willpower pool boost.

On the topic of Immortality of Lerna, I'm all for self-healing as the core. One addendum: the Agg healing ought to be an auxiliary, and it should be limited in that it cannot heal Agg from attacks by Slayers. Otherwise the best way to survive Slayers is just "be a hydra," and we don't want that.

Extra health could work to fill in another auxiliary slot.

Either that, or just specify that temporary Resolve and Composure boosts don't contribute to Willpower rating, only permanent human dots. That way those two stats aren't left looking wimpy on the Drakonos sheet. It works out basically the same.

[Xallace]

Also a good way to do it.

As far as the Heads of Wise Counsel auxiliary for teamworking with yourself goes: it's a fun idea, but how are we going to do it in a way that isn't broken?

[Almarck]

You may just want to say slayers deal resistent damage a LA the mage rules so that no supernatural alliance can actually help a dragon. So life mages cannot help nor can eating goblin fruit.

You will probably want some universal method of healing tilts I think. Specifically lost limbs.


Also, I know that it's probably not going to happen just yet but I can't help but feel eventually you might end up having to make more legacies beyond those that boost attributes. The spines of the Manticore idea brought up above for instance.

The way I think of it the 9 attribute bonuses would be the only attribute boosting legacies each tied to a practically universal part of being a dragon.

Further legacies beyond these 9 such as say spines of the Manticore do not provide bonuses to stats. Instead they have the power to choose what attribute governs their use maybe out of 2 different options for each. So spines runs on either strength or dexterity chosen when the legacy is bought.

Whether or not you do spines of the Manticore is another thing. I just cchose to use it to illustrate the point.

[Elricaltovilla]

One Tin Soldier & Xallace: Did you guys see my suggestions for auxiliaries above?

[Xallace]

One Tin Soldier & Xallace: Did you guys see my suggestions for auxiliaries above?

Yes, and some of the Immortality of Lerna ones have been added. Haven't gotten around to the rest yet.
Thank you for your suggestions!

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, and some of the Immortality of Lerna ones have been added. Haven't gotten around to the rest yet.
Thank you for your suggestions!

I'm glad you like them.

[Almarck]

On the multiple heads thing, I think having that many reroll is gamebreaking. One reroll per head?. Perhaps spending "extra heads" to shortening time spent thinking something up (like parallel thinking), reducing penalties to skill checks (maybe the other parts of my consciousness know something I forgot), getting dice tricks like 8 or 9 again (remind me again how to do this well).

Also what do you feel about slayers doing resistant damage so healing magic from other splats does not work.

[One Tin Soldier]

Also a good way to do it.

As far as the Heads of Wise Counsel auxiliary for teamworking with yourself goes: it's a fun idea, but how are we going to do it in a way that isn't broken?

For one, I think it should only work on rolls you could normally teamwork. So a bunch of bickering heads could conceivably contribute different points of view to research or tracking or repairing a car or other such things, but not lifting heavy machinery or punching a guy. Perhaps it could function only on Extended actions? And they of course can only be secondary actor to themselves once on a roll, or twice to someone else. It could also potentially cost WP, though that feels a bit too harsh considering that you won't get a bonus higher than 3 all that often.


One Tin Soldier & Xallace: Did you guys see my suggestions for auxiliaries above?

Like Xallace said, we did. I also threw in your suggestion for Radiance of Quetzalcoatl, with the addendum that you can only do it for one person at a time. I called it Champion of the Gods.


You may just want to say slayers deal resistent damage a LA the mage rules so that no supernatural alliance can actually help a dragon. So life mages cannot help nor can eating goblin fruit.

You will probably want some universal method of healing tilts I think. Specifically lost limbs.


Also, I know that it's probably not going to happen just yet but I can't help but feel eventually you might end up having to make more legacies beyond those that boost attributes. The spines of the Manticore idea brought up above for instance.

The way I think of it the 9 attribute bonuses would be the only attribute boosting legacies each tied to a practically universal part of being a dragon.

Further legacies beyond these 9 such as say spines of the Manticore do not provide bonuses to stats. Instead they have the power to choose what attribute governs their use maybe out of 2 different options for each. So spines runs on either strength or dexterity chosen when the legacy is bought.

Whether or not you do spines of the Manticore is another thing. I just cchose to use it to illustrate the point.

We'll keep this suggestion in mind if we do create any additional General Legacies.

EDIT: Making their damage Resistant is probably a good idea.

As for rerolls, the core effect does specify that they have to be different rolls for each head. If the ST decides that there's only 3 rolls that could possibly apply to the situation, then having more than 2 extra heads won't help you. Also I think that if one head rolls a dramatic failure, then that's the result you get. (So rolling on a chance die is still a bad idea.)

[Almarck]

So here's a question. How is a dragon with no self healing supposed to go from Drakonos back into Anthropolos after a heavy combat that leaves him/her low on life?

For a werewolf it's easily comparitively because of the insane self healing meaning no matter the form the werewolf basically can step into hishu after waiting an hour or so. And fights that involve Gauru don't often have wounds excluding aggravated wounds on them so there's no fear of the damage "rolling over" when changing down usually.


How does a dragon cope respectively?

[Elricaltovilla]

So here's a question. How is a dragon with no self healing supposed to go from Drakonos back into Anthropolos after a heavy combat that leaves him/her low on life?

For a werewolf it's easily comparitively because of the insane self healing meaning no matter the form the werewolf basically can step into hishu after waiting an hour or so. And fights that involve Gauru don't often have wounds excluding aggravated wounds on them so there's no fear of the damage "rolling over" when changing down usually.

Treat them as virtual health dots? Anything that filled a Drakonos box just "falls off" when you switch back to Anthropos. Or just say that the two forms have separate health pools?

[Almarck]

Treat them as virtual health dots? Anything that filled a Drakonos box just "falls off" when you switch back to Anthropos. Or just say that the two forms have separate health pools?

Those are all possibilities. It'd be unusual to have two seperate wound pools, but, well, maybe...

[Amechra]

Trying again (I really want to put off the work I'm going to have to do tonight):

Bones of the Mountain:

Strength Enough (•••••)
A dragon with this legacy moves beyond mortal strength and strangles the divine within its coils.
While in Drakonos, whenever the dragon spends Willpower on a Strength-based action, they also increase their Strength by one dot for the remainder of scene. If they suffer a Dramatic Failure on the roll, they may forgo taking a Beat to gain an additional dot of Strength; after all, they clearly weren't strong enough.

[One Tin Soldier]

So here's a question. How is a dragon with no self healing supposed to go from Drakonos back into Anthropolos after a heavy combat that leaves him/her low on life?

For a werewolf it's easily comparitively because of the insane self healing meaning no matter the form the werewolf basically can step into hishu after waiting an hour or so. And fights that involve Gauru don't often have wounds excluding aggravated wounds on them so there's no fear of the damage "rolling over" when changing down usually.


How does a dragon cope respectively?


Treat them as virtual health dots? Anything that filled a Drakonos box just "falls off" when you switch back to Anthropos. Or just say that the two forms have separate health pools?

If a dragon takes enough damage in Drakonos to possibly kill them by shifting back, and they don't have a healing handy, then they have to find a place where they can hide for a week or so (Or at least a day or two while their allies go find someone capable of healing them). This is another one of those things that's a feature, not a bug. Sometimes dragons are forced to remain in Drakonos when they would rather not be, and they have to find ways to get around regular humans, whether that's stuffing themselves inside a van, taking a trip through the local sewers, or flying away under the cover of darkness.


Those are all possibilities. It'd be unusual to have two seperate wound pools, but, well, maybe...


Trying again (I really want to put off the work I'm going to have to do tonight):

Bones of the Mountain:

Strength Enough (•••••)
A dragon with this legacy moves beyond mortal strength and strangles the divine within its coils.
While in Drakonos, whenever the dragon spends Willpower on a Strength-based action, they also increase their Strength by one dot for the remainder of scene. If they suffer a Dramatic Failure on the roll, they may forgo taking a Beat to gain an additional dot of Strength; after all, they clearly weren't strong enough.


Ooh, I like this one. Consider it added. (Great name, too.)

[Almarck]

Well, I guess if a dragon is that badly injured it is an end boss scenario... that much damage kinda justifies going for a rest that long. It'll probably be an RP concern to explain recovery.


So, I did some work and got this ready just now. Weirdly, I latched on to the idea of Radiance being light themed aside from divinity. Then again, the sun and light in general are aspects of divinity.
Anyway, I thought incorporating light as part of Radiance's effects would work to make it more appealing.



Core: +2 Drakonos size per dot. Amphitere become increasingly celestial as they grow, becoming less monstrous and more divine. The Amphitere produces a glow that causes emotional responses in other creatures. At ●, ●●●, and ●●●●●, the Hier gains a +1, +2, and +3 bonus, respectively, to all social rolls that are enhanced by or rely on appearance, regardless of form.

Additionally, in Drakonos, the Heir may radiate light from his body, illuminating an area equal to 5 x Radiance dots centered around the Hier. The light is bright but not blinding nor impairing in any way.

Auxilaries.


Blinding Light 2 - The Heir’s light can be raised to an intensity that it blinds opponents. Spend 1 Willpower to radiate light that may cause the Blinded condition for a number of rounds equal to Kau

Blazing Sun 5 - At this level of power, the Heir may choose to radiate light that is near indistinguishable from sunlight in both supernatural and scientific senses. The Heir may spend 2 Willpower to radiate this kind of light for a number of rounds equal to Kau.



Another thought I wonder about is if Fafnir's fangs is... enough now. I mean, with the change that restricted legacies are all important and all defining for the dragon, is being very specialized to deal with poison in that manner as good as it was before? I mean, consider the utility of Hydra healing in comparison.

Something I have been musing, as I generally feel restricted things typically ought to be flatout "better" than other things.

[Amechra]

Could I request that you have some section listing people who submitted material you're using? Otherwise, I'm going to have to respectfully ask that Strength Enough not be used.

[One Tin Soldier]

Could I request that you have some section listing people who submitted material you're using? Otherwise, I'm going to have to respectfully ask that Strength Enough not be used.

Sure, we can put in a Special Thanks or Other Contributors or such section.

[Amechra]

Thanks! Sorry if I came off as unreasonable.

[Xallace]

Thanks! Sorry if I came off as unreasonable.

Not in the least! Credit where credit is due!


On a different note, we have realized that with the addition of the Resolve bonuses to Breath of the Inferno, we need a Composure legacy to complete the bunch. One Tin Soldier and I have agreed on my previous idea for (the slightly renamed) Grace of the Host as the one to fill that gap. Here's what I've got so far:



Grace of the Host
I am unflappable.
The legacy of hospitality.

The purview of this legacy is one of graciousness in the face of danger and disorder. While hospitality has ebbed as a virtue, it has had its place in many cultures and many times across the world. What’s more, it remains in vogue for many dragons who feel that the great rulers of the earth must act with grace and generosity towards those lesser inhabitants of their kingdom.

Being a social legacy, Grace of the Host’s effects on the Drakonos are subtle. Some dragons become less dangerous and more approachable in appearance, while others lose those qualities entirely and appear with hard and mask-like visages. Changes while active in Anthropos are equally subtle, and this is among the few legacies for whom supernatural levels of an attribute will not immediately trigger Enkindling.


Core

For each dot in this legacy, the Drakonos gains an additional dot of Composure. These dots do not add to the dragon’s Willpower pool; only the base dots of the Anthropos can modify Willpower
.
Additionally, the dragon’s immense ability to remain collected allows them to shrug of social or emotional attacks against their person. The secondary power may be activated in response to a roll made against the dragon that is meant to influence or control the dragon’s mind, opinion, or emotions.

Action: Reflexive
Cost: 1 Willpower
Roll: Composure + Kauchaomai

Dramatic Failure: The dragon accidentally widens the cracks in her psyche while trying to gird herself, and the target’s roll is considered an Exceptional Success against the dragon, if it wasn’t already.

Failure: No matter how hard they try, the dragon cannot shrug off the attack.

Success: Each success removes one success on the roll against the dragon. If the target’s roll is reduced to 0 successes or fewer, the target’s roll is considered a failure and the dragon is unaffected.

Exceptional Success: As per a success, but the dragon’s composure overpowers the target. If the target’s roll is reduce to 0 or fewer successes, the dragon regains 1 Willpower and the target’s roll is treated as a dramatic failure rather than a normal failure.



Auxiliary Legacies

Anticipate Desire (●)
Learn a single aspiration of a target, gain bonuses to helping them fulfill it.

An Excellent Host (●)
Gain several social effects while within Safe Place

Amicable Neighbor (●●)
Increase impression level for social maneuvering.

Role Model (●●)
Extra successes from core power spill over to allies.

Make Yourself at Home (●●●)
Make targets “feel at home” and not leave a place of your choosing. Better if Safe Place or Lair

Above Reproach (●●●)
Targets must spend Willpower to take hostile social actions against the dragon.

House Rules (●●●●)
Targets behave while in a territory of the dragon’s choosing. Better if Safe Place or Lair

Genius Loci (●●●●)
Improve dragon’s speed and defense while in Safe Place buy Safe Place dots. Can move through Safe Place by passages that don’t exist for others, does not need Craft for traps.

Party of the Century (●●●●●)
The dragon can control the flow of time within their Lair, making things flow faster or slower than the outside world. The dragon can also control the sorts of people who show up or leave

The Host’s Honor (●●●●●)
Social and emotional attacks can be diverted to the dragon, who can use the core legacy on behalf of others. Can also divert psychic attacks or even certain sorts of physical assaults with core power, although this final ability is obvious supernatural in nature.

Edit: Updated.

[Almarck]

Nice legacy. I like the whole hospitality thing. Not sure I would have though of something as tactful as that. The Powe to resist social manipulation is cool.

Hn, a part of me wants to recomend further aux things but I keep finding rather uncreative ideas. One of them is the ability to as the host bestow protection of some sort to a recipient, maybe allow the dragon to... intercede or divert psychic or social attacks aimed at other people to himself. The idea was as the host you have a responsibility to protect the integrity of others.

Also my previous post seems to have gone beneath notice. It details proposed changes to radiance.

No opinion on the crediting things.

[Xallace]

Nice legacy. I like the whole hospitality thing. Not sure I would have though of something as tactful as that. The Powe to resist social manipulation is cool.

Hn, a part of me wants to recomend further aux things but I keep finding rather uncreative ideas. One of them is the ability to as the host bestow protection of some sort to a recipient, maybe allow the dragon to... intercede or divert psychic or social attacks aimed at other people to himself. The idea was as the host you have a responsibility to protect the integrity of others.

Interestingly, that's what I have for one of the 5-dots. I just updated it so go ahead and take a look, they're all filled out with a basic idea now. I think the legacy will need some tweaking as we actually get into the powers but for now it seems pretty solid to me. Maybe Genus Loci could be changed, though.


Also my previous post seems to have gone beneath notice. It details proposed changes to radiance.

Ah yes, I hadn't seen that. I'm sure One Tin Soldier will take a look when he gets online, I'm feeling a little creatively burnt out after coming up with Grace of the Host.

[One Tin Soldier]

Nice legacy. I like the whole hospitality thing. Not sure I would have though of something as tactful as that. The Powe to resist social manipulation is cool.

Hn, a part of me wants to recomend further aux things but I keep finding rather uncreative ideas. One of them is the ability to as the host bestow protection of some sort to a recipient, maybe allow the dragon to... intercede or divert psychic or social attacks aimed at other people to himself. The idea was as the host you have a responsibility to protect the integrity of others.

Also my previous post seems to have gone beneath notice. It details proposed changes to radiance.

No opinion on the crediting things.

I kinda like the sunlight stuff, yeah. Especially if we can emphasize the link between sunlight and divinity. I feel like it should grant a bit more than just light, however. Perhaps make it so that while you have the light up, you get a bonus equal to Radiance dots to all social rolls that would be influenced by appearance. Or just get that in general, and the light is a side effect.

For that matter, maybe we could bump all the "1,3,5" Anthropos effects up to directly scaling effects. Considering that raising your unique legacy takes a lot more effort than raising your other ones, I do agree that you should get more bang for your buck.

[Almarck]

Light and the sun are things that are seen as universally divine by like every major culture. I think just throwing light as and giving it the right names is what's neccesary.

Anyways I can agree with everything that has been brought up on modifying Radiance. The light and social bonuses that come with it could go either way though for simplicty perhaps we should classify bonuses as being "equipment" based

Granted I still feel the anthropos only benefits should work in Drakonos as well. I mean why shouldn't it when being a dragon is the trueself. Even if it risks enkindling why shouldn't their true form not getvthe full benefits of their chief legacy?

I feel Genius Loci is too much of a combat centric power and is probably in the wrong legacy in my opinion. Atleast as written. Perhaps changing it to simply allowing the dragon to know aanyone if there is anyone entering or exiting the lair would be better. Maybe allowing the dragon to know the vague locations of where people are but not no know who pr what it is other than general size of the creature

[Xallace]

I've written up several of Grace of the Hosts's auxiliaries and have added everything we have on the legacy so far to the doc.

I agree about Genus Loci, I don't particularly like it as is.

Edit: Thinking on it, I believe Grace of the Host, Tongue of the Serpent, and Wings of the Heaven are the legacies I would most like to use for my own character. They're just so tricksy.

[One Tin Soldier]

Light and the sun are things that are seen as universally divine by like every major culture. I think just throwing light as and giving it the right names is what's neccesary.

Anyways I can agree with everything that has been brought up on modifying Radiance. The light and social bonuses that come with it could go either way though for simplicty perhaps we should classify bonuses as being "equipment" based

Granted I still feel the anthropos only benefits should work in Drakonos as well. I mean why shouldn't it when being a dragon is the trueself. Even if it risks enkindling why shouldn't their true form not getvthe full benefits of their chief legacy?

I feel Genius Loci is too much of a combat centric power and is probably in the wrong legacy in my opinion. Atleast as written. Perhaps changing it to simply allowing the dragon to know aanyone if there is anyone entering or exiting the lair would be better. Maybe allowing the dragon to know the vague locations of where people are but not no know who pr what it is other than general size of the creature

Well, the original idea behind the Anthropos-only benefits was that they were scaled down versions of the main effect. So that was never really an issue. (Or at least, that's how I always read it)


I've written up several of Grace of the Hosts's auxiliaries and have added everything we have on the legacy so far to the doc.

I agree about Genus Loci, I don't particularly like it as is.

Edit: Thinking on it, I believe Grace of the Host, Tongue of the Serpent, and Wings of the Heaven are the legacies I would most like to use for my own character. They're just so tricksy.

Which legacies I would want the most depends a lot on which character I'd be playing. I'm pretty fond of Sorcery, Poison of Fafnir, Wings of the Heavens, and Breath of the Inferno. I particularly enjoy Breath's auxiliaries. Playing a character who has just all the Breath auxiliaries would be super fun. Like playing a pyro wizard in D&D.

[Almarck]

So does that mean anthropos specific things are getting dropped or changed to apply to both forms if they didn't already?


Also i think it'll be hard for anyone to roll a dragon and not take wings. For many fire breathing and flight are the main points

Anyways , I'd go with Waters, Bones, Breath, and of course Wings. Maybe Eyes as well. The idea is to play air and water superiority and quick hit and run combat and lots of ranged focuses. For some reason I always go for combat or physical focus...

[Xallace]

I'm a big fan of "sidereal bullpuckey" aka behind-the-scenes magic and the three I mentioned are about as close as we have in Dragon, maybe with the addition of Eyes of Eternity. Dragons are pretty straight-forward in their magics.

[Amechra]

I honestly kinda prefer Bones, Hide, and Wings; I mean, Sidereal bullpucky is all well and good, but being able to smash someone through a wall with a swat, laugh off most mundane weapons, and dodge bullets while the size of a semi-truck is great. I also like Immortality of Lernea, for much the same reasons; sometimes, you just want to be the unstoppable tank of a beast.

I also prefer going social when I play a Werewolf, so there's that (Dominance: Cunning + Dominance: Purity = Make anyone with a Resolve or Composure lower than your Purity follow your immediate orders or face the consequences.) So there's that.

Then again, my opinions might change when things are fleshed out a bit.



As for Immortality of Lernea, why not take a page out of Werewolf's playbook, and let the Core Legacy regenerate Bashing automatically, with the Willpower flipping that into regenerating Lethal for a turn?

As for the one-dot Auxiliaries:

• When entering Anthropos, the dragon heals automatically.
• Hydra recovers from poisons and drugs must faster than other dragons.

For the first one, I'm thinking that they would get a "free" use of Immortality of Lernea when they shift into Anthropos, which would take place after they dropped it down to Bashing (if they had the four-dot that did that); it lets them get back into "human" form much faster.

As for the five-dot...

••••• Hydra temporarily heals to fast to die.

You know how Mummies have Sealing the Flesh as a thing they can do? They spend a point of one of their Pillars, and then their flesh starts sealing for [that Pillar] turns. During that time, they heal 3B and 1L per turn, and can't die from damage until the time limit's up. Unless you destroy their heart, nothing can kill them for those turns.

So, yeah: the Hydra can spend one Willpower to become immune to death or unconsciousness by damage for 5 turns. Slayers bypass this immunity.

[One Tin Soldier]

As for Immortality of Lernea, why not take a page out of Werewolf's playbook, and let the Core Legacy regenerate Bashing automatically, with the Willpower flipping that into regenerating Lethal for a turn?

As for the one-dot Auxiliaries:

• When entering Anthropos, the dragon heals automatically.
• Hydra recovers from poisons and drugs must faster than other dragons.

For the first one, I'm thinking that they would get a "free" use of Immortality of Lernea when they shift into Anthropos, which would take place after they dropped it down to Bashing (if they had the four-dot that did that); it lets them get back into "human" form much faster.

As for the five-dot...

••••• Hydra temporarily heals to fast to die.

You know how Mummies have Sealing the Flesh as a thing they can do? They spend a point of one of their Pillars, and then their flesh starts sealing for [that Pillar] turns. During that time, they heal 3B and 1L per turn, and can't die from damage until the time limit's up. Unless you destroy their heart, nothing can kill them for those turns.

So, yeah: the Hydra can spend one Willpower to become immune to death or unconsciousness by damage for 5 turns. Slayers bypass this immunity.

Healing a bit automatically when shifting down strikes me as too powerful for a 1-dot. Same goes for giving them Werewolf healing outright as a core effect. We want to make the hydrae tanky, not completely unkillable. Similarly for the five dot you suggested, automatically healing lethal every turn seems like too much on top of everything else they can do to be tanky. As for the "literally unkillable during that time" part, it already exists as Immortality of the Lambton Worm, a 5 dot Hide of Iron aux. It directly replicates Mummy's Dead damage system, with the added caveat that any Dead damage remaining when the activation ends removes permanent Health dots. (Which could kill the dragon outright, if they have more Dead damage than Health. It can also "lock" a dragon in Drakonos if shifting to Anthropos would put them under that threshold.)


Aside from that, I've begun writing up an Aerial Combat fighting style, based on the fighting tactics of fighter pilots and birds of prey. This style is available to anything with a fly speed, so it can also be taken by Garuda, Sin-Eaters with Phantasmal Marionette, Mages with high Forces, Geniuses with flight suits, etc.
Actually, come to think of it, my Genius character should totally take this.

EDIT 2: We also now have a second page of the rough character sheet, available for download here (https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpa1/v/t59.2708-21/11095877_10155357207385481_1517494807_n.pdf/Dragon-character-sheet-2-pages-no-forms.pdf?oh=fd2eec466cd099fb2bf9d6b29951d35b&oe=5517E8F2&dl=1).

[Xallace]

On the other hand, a Sealing the Flesh type effect would make sense for the Hydrae. 3B + 1L every turn for five turns, maybe remove one biological- or anatomical-related tilt every turn, cost of 2WP? I think that'd make a decent high-level power.

[Almarck]

I might have missed this, but what's the dicepool for the Enkindling? It's not listed directly in the entry for it.

Additionally, aside from Slayers, Enkindling, and not transforming back at Kau 10, I kind of want to know your thoughts on adding perhaps more elements inherent in Kau that penalize dragons over Kau 5.


Lastly, a part of me wonders now that Legacies have been changed for Special legacies being learned based on total dots in General legacies, that whether or not 2 exp is too cheap for buying legacies since they provide both stat boosts and magical powers per each other. I suppose this is offset by not being able to use them in human form without burning will and using Drakonos to use them efficiently, but the point does kind of stand still. Plus, not every person is going to buy every dot in Aux's either.


On a note: Why doesn't Bones read that the dragon gains claw, bite, or tail weapons that deal X Lethal damage? As it is, currently, a dragon could technically activate the legacy while say, using brass knuckles and glass spiked fists for even more damage.


Nice work on the flying style though. Never woulda thought you'd be so universal about it.

[One Tin Soldier]

I might have missed this, but what's the dicepool for the Enkindling? It's not listed directly in the entry for it.

Serenity. I was pretty sure that was clear, but I'll go back over it and check.


Additionally, aside from Slayers, Enkindling, and not transforming back at Kau 10, I kind of want to know your thoughts on adding perhaps more elements inherent in Kau that penalize dragons over Kau 5.

I think the existing penalties are strong enough, personally.


Lastly, a part of me wonders now that Legacies have been changed for Special legacies being learned based on total dots in General legacies, that whether or not 2 exp is too cheap for buying legacies since they provide both stat boosts and magical powers per each other. I suppose this is offset by not being able to use them in human form without burning will and using Drakonos to use them efficiently, but the point does kind of stand still. Plus, not every person is going to buy every dot in Aux's either.

I have a note in the document that those XP costs are not final. If playtesting reveals that dragons gain power too fast, or that buying legacies is just plain better than buying anything else, then we'll bump them up.


On a note: Why doesn't Bones read that the dragon gains claw, bite, or tail weapons that deal X Lethal damage? As it is, currently, a dragon could technically activate the legacy while say, using brass knuckles and glass spiked fists for even more damage.

Because the natural weapons actually come naturally from the Drakonos. All dragons in Drakonos do Lethal with brawl attacks, Bones just lets you do more. We should probably note that the damage bonus doesn't work with weapons, though.


Nice work on the flying style though. Never woulda thought you'd be so universal about it.

Thanks! That was my thought going in, to make it distinct from Auxiliaries, that it represents general tactics for hand-to-hand combat in the air. And I know at least two of my other WoD characters have flight and would love to have it. For that matter, I can imagine a character (probably a Genius) using these in a vehicle too, as long as it had melee weapons. You'd mostly just need to replace Athletics with Drive.

[Almarck]

Alright. Then in the Enkindling entry, just put that it rolls Serenity in bold for easy reference. I couldn't find it within Enkindling itself and that was what caused me to bring it up.

For the claw attacks, just say Bones increases the damage the Drakonos's natural weapons deal by X. Or in the case of using it an Anthropos creates weapons of X lethality.

As for the exp costs, mostly it comes from the Legacies being so cheap to rank up in, relatively speaking from other supernatural powers and buffing things up. Might just be me though. The only downside is that Legacy ranking up is strictly linear, which may or may not make the cost "worth it" for some.

By the way, a part of me wants to know. Can you spend willpower for for boosting dice rolls to absurd degrees? (Spend 2 Willpower to make one Brawl attack hit with a +6)



Also, for some reason had this weird idea for something probably silly and redundant for an antagonist or world building concept. The idea was corrupted or imperfect "half-dragons" of some sort. Dragons are called Heirs because it is their inheritance right. Well, in this case, I was thinking about "Heir Pretenders" in the theme of inheriting
Basically they are those who the share the same legendary roots of a dragon and own a small modicum of the power that comes with that (more so than the Spurned), far more than, yet never inherited the full blessing of being a dragon. As a result, they are caught between "both worlds"

[One Tin Soldier]

By the way, a part of me wants to know. Can you spend willpower for for boosting dice rolls to absurd degrees? (Spend 2 Willpower to make one Brawl attack hit with a +6)

Yep.


Also, for some reason had this weird idea for something probably silly and redundant for an antagonist or world building concept. The idea was corrupted or imperfect "half-dragons" of some sort. Dragons are called Heirs because it is their inheritance right. Well, in this case, I was thinking about "Heir Pretenders" in the theme of inheriting
Basically they are those who the share the same legendary roots of a dragon and own a small modicum of the power that comes with that (more so than the Spurned), far more than, yet never inherited the full blessing of being a dragon. As a result, they are caught between "both worlds"

That's the exact kind of idea that led us to create the Knights of Siegfried, the humans who drink dragon blood to learn Auxiliaries and buy Sorcery dots. They are particularly good at using Heirlooms.

[Almarck]

Except it's a bit more personal/authentic with what I had been suggesting. More like Banishers in sense. Actually being Heirs in of themselves but not "true" Heirs. I dunno maybe it's because I thought the Knights were a Hunter conspiracy instead of being a "halfsplat"

[Almarck]

So, I ended up doing this today:


Humans: Listen to your betters little man
Slayers: These people clearly have not gotten the memo; I am still better than them!

Vampires: My heart burns with the power of the sun. I do not fear these wretched pretenders.
Werewolves: Wild dog, nothing more. So what if they howl at the moon? It’s not like they can touch the divine!
Mages: I hear they are interested in dragons… Hm, maybe they would not mind working for me...

Genii: I like being admired… but please stop bringing the bonesaw in the room.
Princesses: For the last time, we are not related!
Leviathans: What are these dark and loathsome beings?




Humans: Pay attention. This subject is of much importance to me.
Slayers: If only poison worked well against them….

Vampires: Curious, but ultimately too dead to be interesting.
Werewolves: If I did not know any better. It’s almost like they’re driven to hunt all the time.
Mages: Just when I thought I found a kindred spirit, I meet one of them. Why can’t they get that I don’t really find myself all that appealing or important, I’d much rather talk about… golf...

Genii: These people take their obsessions a little too far. And that’s coming from my mouth!
Princesses: They’re nice to talk to and they’ll listen. That’s good enough for me. Now I get why dragons in stories kept kidnapping them or rather invite them over.
Leviathans: I keep telling you, there’s these things that are like dragons, yet… aren’t! Great, now I know what those conspiracy nuts feel like when they talk about us




Humans: Human beings are cursed with incredibly frail bodies and short life. Oh, am I glad I am no longer one of them.
Slayers: Every single one of these creatures I meet, I have to spend a week recovering. They’re a nuisance!

Vampires: They are so dead, like corpses who don’t even realize they should be six feet under.
Werewolves: And I thought I was hard to kill...
Mages: These folks are not unmanagable, and if you know the right string to pull can often end up taking you to interesting places.

Genii: Now, I have a sense of adventure and all, but that does not mean I lack any self-preservation instincts.
Princesses: Oh, you heard of them, too? Well, I heard there was this Party they were hosting. You got an invitation?
Leviathans: I met another hydra a long time ago, except… he was different. His healing was off, his wounds created swarms of little creatures that each spoke a different language. It was like looking at ourselves… but mixed with a bunch of other different types of dragons...






Humans: I’m not above eating one of them if one of them gets out of line. Otherwise, I’d rather not have the taste of cotton in my tongue for a while.
Slayers: Don’t try eating them unless you’re sure you’ve removed all their weapons. Otherwise, they’ll cut themselves clean out of your stomach. Seen it happen before!

Vampires: Yuk. Rotten meat.
Werewolves: If you can get these guys to respect you, you know you’ve got it made. Barely anything short of lifting a bus seems to impress these savages for some reason.
Mages: It’s almost too easy to impress them for some reason. Hardly anyone seems to consider a wizard’s impression of you as anything special!

Genii: If you survive an experiement from a mad scientist of these guys, you deserve a medal. Trust me, there’s better ways to make a mark.
Princesses: Word of advice, let them handle the PR and spread gossip for you. I know they might look like the humans, but they’re always well connected.
Leviathans: Never bite one of them. That is all.






Humans: They believe themselves the top of the food chain, the ultimate predators and rulers of this world. They are mistaken.
Slayers: The best way to challenge them is to overwhelm them until they are but dust and ash. Never let them use their power against you.

Vampires: The undead horde power over this world in the form of vast wealth and social influences. It is recommended you take advantage of one of them.
Werewolves: These simple dogs rely on nothing but their claws and teeth. Hardly worth considering.
Mages: A wizard’s power comes from his knowledge, likewise, we, too should seek to learn to take advantage of it.

Genii: Their toys are capable of wonderous feats, but are ultimately unstable. Be wary when using anything of theirs.
Princesses: Socialites and nobility. The power they wield is clear for all to see.
Leviathans: They are like us, creatures of the sea, that much is obvious, but they are definitely something else. I wonder what can be gleaned by that.



I know that the stereotypes are probably not all that accurate and probably do not line up with your intentions, but it's what came to mind when I was bored today. The idea was each of the 5 types of dragons gave stereotypes on big 3 supernaturals + 3 other fan splats.


By the way, how does Dynastic Legacy work in terms of ranking up?

[One Tin Soldier]

So, I ended up doing this today:


Humans: Listen to your betters little man
Slayers: These people clearly have not gotten the memo; I am still better than them!

Vampires: My heart burns with the power of the sun. I do not fear these wretched pretenders.
Werewolves: Wild dog, nothing more. So what if they howl at the moon? It’s not like they can touch the divine!
Mages: I hear they are interested in dragons… Hm, maybe they would not mind working for me...

Genii: I like being admired… but please stop bringing the bonesaw in the room.
Princesses: For the last time, we are not related!
Leviathans: What are these dark and loathsome beings?




Humans: Pay attention. This subject is of much importance to me.
Slayers: If only poison worked well against them….

Vampires: Curious, but ultimately too dead to be interesting.
Werewolves: If I did not know any better. It’s almost like they’re driven to hunt all the time.
Mages: Just when I thought I found a kindred spirit, I meet one of them. Why can’t they get that I don’t really find myself all that appealing or important, I’d much rather talk about… golf...

Genii: These people take their obsessions a little too far. And that’s coming from my mouth!
Princesses: They’re nice to talk to and they’ll listen. That’s good enough for me. Now I get why dragons in stories kept kidnapping them or rather invite them over.
Leviathans: I keep telling you, there’s these things that are like dragons, yet… aren’t! Great, now I know what those conspiracy nuts feel like when they talk about us




Humans: Human beings are cursed with incredibly frail bodies and short life. Oh, am I glad I am no longer one of them.
Slayers: Every single one of these creatures I meet, I have to spend a week recovering. They’re a nuisance!

Vampires: They are so dead, like corpses who don’t even realize they should be six feet under.
Werewolves: And I thought I was hard to kill...
Mages: These folks are not unmanagable, and if you know the right string to pull can often end up taking you to interesting places.

Genii: Now, I have a sense of adventure and all, but that does not mean I lack any self-preservation instincts.
Princesses: Oh, you heard of them, too? Well, I heard there was this Party they were hosting. You got an invitation?
Leviathans: I met another hydra a long time ago, except… he was different. His healing was off, his wounds created swarms of little creatures that each spoke a different language. It was like looking at ourselves… but mixed with a bunch of other different types of dragons...






Humans: I’m not above eating one of them if one of them gets out of line. Otherwise, I’d rather not have the taste of cotton in my tongue for a while.
Slayers: Don’t try eating them unless you’re sure you’ve removed all their weapons. Otherwise, they’ll cut themselves clean out of your stomach. Seen it happen before!

Vampires: Yuk. Rotten meat.
Werewolves: If you can get these guys to respect you, you know you’ve got it made. Barely anything short of lifting a bus seems to impress these savages for some reason.
Mages: It’s almost too easy to impress them for some reason. Hardly anyone seems to consider a wizard’s impression of you as anything special!

Genii: If you survive an experiement from a mad scientist of these guys, you deserve a medal. Trust me, there’s better ways to make a mark.
Princesses: Word of advice, let them handle the PR and spread gossip for you. I know they might look like the humans, but they’re always well connected.
Leviathans: Never bite one of them. That is all.






Humans: They believe themselves the top of the food chain, the ultimate predators and rulers of this world. They are mistaken.
Slayers: The best way to challenge them is to overwhelm them until they are but dust and ash. Never let them use their power against you.

Vampires: The undead horde power over this world in the form of vast wealth and social influences. It is recommended you take advantage of one of them.
Werewolves: These simple dogs rely on nothing but their claws and teeth. Hardly worth considering.
Mages: A wizard’s power comes from his knowledge, likewise, we, too should seek to learn to take advantage of it.

Genii: Their toys are capable of wonderous feats, but are ultimately unstable. Be wary when using anything of theirs.
Princesses: Socialites and nobility. The power they wield is clear for all to see.
Leviathans: They are like us, creatures of the sea, that much is obvious, but they are definitely something else. I wonder what can be gleaned by that.



I know that the stereotypes are probably not all that accurate and probably do not line up with your intentions, but it's what came to mind when I was bored today. The idea was each of the 5 types of dragons gave stereotypes on big 3 supernaturals + 3 other fan splats.


By the way, how does Dynastic Legacy work in terms of ranking up?

Cool. We might borrow some of these. I particularly like the Wyvern ones.

Dynastic Legacies are bought just like General Legacies.

[Almarck]

Okay, thanks for the heads up.

And yeah, one of the things I liked the most out of any WoD splatbook was reading the general reactions for other splats. Pretty neat some times, though I'm obviously not the best of it.

Wvyren I will admit I was not thinking was my bet work when I did it, but I guess it's the most stereotypical. Either something is food or its someone worth working with.

Also, I am assuming if you leave a Dynasty, your old Dynasty legacy dots transfer over?

[One Tin Soldier]

Okay, thanks for the heads up.

And yeah, one of the things I liked the most out of any WoD splatbook was reading the general reactions for other splats. Pretty neat some times, though I'm obviously not the best of it.

Wvyren I will admit I was not thinking was my bet work when I did it, but I guess it's the most stereotypical. Either something is food or its someone worth working with.

Also, I am assuming if you leave a Dynasty, your old Dynasty legacy dots transfer over?

I'd say no. They're skills that the dragon has learned; you don't just forget how do something because you've left the organization. And the knowledge isn't magically transferred over. I would say, though, that if you change Dynasties you can't buy any more dots or auxiliaries in the old one.

Hopping around to different dynasties just to learn their special magic and then leaving again would be frowned upon, of course. It could even get you in serious trouble if someone suspects espionage...

[Xallace]

Hopping around to different dynasties just to learn their special magic and then leaving again would be frowned upon, of course. It could even get you in serious trouble if someone suspects espionage...

The Yinglong especially. And then someone's going to blame the Nagaraja and we have ourselves an inter-faction shadow war.

Great, another one for the sample plot section.

Edit: I've just noticed that we cleared 100 pages! Celebration!

[Almarck]

I'd say no. They're skills that the dragon has learned; you don't just forget how do something because you've left the organization. And the knowledge isn't magically transferred over. I would say, though, that if you change Dynasties you can't buy any more dots or auxiliaries in the old one.

Hopping around to different dynasties just to learn their special magic and then leaving again would be frowned upon, of course. It could even get you in serious trouble if someone suspects espionage...

I'll admit, that sound pretty ludicrous, maybe would just be simpler to have legacies aside from "primaries" nonresistricted. Maybe there's a catch or benefit for dragons of the right Dynasty for leveling the associated legacy with them. Hm, this gives me an idea. but it's probably not neccesary for now.


Ever had plans for "Iconic" dragons? I mean, basically signature characters in each "Chapter" in either the fiction or given stats? Like you know, example characters.

[Xallace]

We have one example character all the way at the end, Soldier's character Eve. We'll probably end up using her and some other characters we've developed in the various fictions throughout the book.

One thing I want to talk about and get some feedback on is what the heritages meant during the Empire, if anything. I feel we could really flesh out those sections more with talk about what it meant to be each heritage in the past, if anything at all. As it stands, the identity crisis / heritage dynamic can actually be used as evidence against the Empire having been what the dragon's think it was.

Which we may want to keep that way. I just want to discuss it.

[Almarck]

We have one example character all the way at the end, Soldier's character Eve. We'll probably end up using her and some other characters we've developed in the various fictions throughout the book.

One thing I want to talk about and get some feedback on is what the heritages meant during the Empire, if anything. I feel we could really flesh out those sections more with talk about what it meant to be each heritage in the past, if anything at all. As it stands, the identity crisis / heritage dynamic can actually be used as evidence against the Empire having been what the dragon's think it was.

Which we may want to keep that way. I just want to discuss it.

There's a couple of ways we can deal with it.

Perhaps modern dragons are actually lacking compared to their ancestors and heritages are basically the small collection of stable traits that survived in the modern era. In the past, heritages as we know it did not exist and dragons were free to define themselves as they pleased.

The other way to look at it is simply to consider that heritage is something like is how we consider different races of humans to be different, except for dragons in the old days, heritages were akin to races or ethnic groups. In this sense, pre-Empire heritage may need to be elaborated upon.

[Elricaltovilla]

Did Hydras lose the size increase for their Drakonos forms?

[One Tin Soldier]

Did Hydras lose the size increase for their Drakonos forms?

No, but we forgot to add that back in while rewriting the core power. Thanks for letting us know!


Separately, we've been thinking about the Garuda recently, particularly what fuels their powers. It's probably not Kau, since that is something unique to dragons. (And Slayers, but their Kau is really just a reflection of the dragon's.) Which isn't to say that we're ruling it out entirely, but we're looking for other ideas. So do you guys have any?

[Almarck]

Xal, how does the work on Heritages fare right now?

Also, has there been a resolution on how Breath of the Inferno works?Does it get the +3 bonus for being a full burst? Also, why does it not get extra damage for suceesses? Additionally, does it as a magical fire attack bypass traditional forms of armor?



Separately, we've been thinking about the Garuda recently, particularly what fuels their powers. It's probably not Kau, since that is something unique to dragons. (And Slayers, but their Kau is really just a reflection of the dragon's.) Which isn't to say that we're ruling it out entirely, but we're looking for other ideas. So do you guys have any?

I'm not sure how to to recomend it. Kau seems to be okay, but that might just be me. Perhaps they could be best represented by the generic "Spirit rules" since it seems you're going for a theme of where they are not truly part of the human world. Their fluff strikes me as they have no adapted and are detatched from everything so that might be it.




Also, I ended up comparing Leviathan and Dragon over the week, mostly because they were so similar and because I had idea involving King Ghidorah and Godzilla fighting against each other. I like fansplats after all. Results are bellow:



Despite not being updated to GMC, the sea monsters actually match dragons fairly well a little more closer than the werewolf scenario.


-Assuming 1e exp = beats, that means favored Channels cost 5, that mean Leviathans have about the same cost efficiency as dragons when it comes to selecting vestiges with results that are mostly the same statistics (buying strength boosting and claws would both cost about the same as R5 Bones) leviathan powers are only slightly weaker by like a point but typically either come with special benefits equivalent to a aux legacy builtin and channels do not need to be ranked. Rather powers are more effective dependant on the stage of transformation and at full formation are equivalent to half of a 4 or 5 dot attribute boosting legacy with some auxullaries.

-In terms of weather of Elemental control dragons are actually slightly weaker in this regard since aside from fire dragons need to belong to the right dynasty or type to specialize in elements. Conversely leviathans are not as restricted and a single leviathan focusing on elements can command darkness, fire, earthquakes, storms, water ect.

-Another difference is that while dragons can get stat boosts up to 5, Leviathans only go up to 2, but get free 8 again effects or deny the reroll abilities for opponents passively.

-Size is roughly equal for both of them but instead of passively growing the leviathan had to go out of his way too boost size. If he does the dragon will need to wait for a while to catch up and even then the leviathan can boost size much more efficiently than the dragon. Still, without specifically gearing for it, the dragon will typically outsize the leviathan.

-Leviathans also possess much more varied powers such as the ability to corrupt a creature or environment,enslave people, and so on. The most obvious,of these are psychic abilities which can be used for offense, telekinsis,of both fine and offensive varieties. There's also creating combat familiars.


+In the dragon's favor though is the fact unlike leviathans, dragons do not lose energy when under full transformation for being out of the water and have no banes of any sort such as lightning or virtues. It's also significantly easier to refuel on willpower than it is on ichor which requieres being near water.

+There's also the lack of flight. Though all leviathans are expert swimmers to the point they beat out Wyrms easily, they do not have any flying mechanics.

+Leviathans also have the downside of not being able to use their full powers while in human form. Infact, they are just barely above human in human form and need to gradually ramp up to being a primordial sea monster to use their powers effectively. As the game designers, you know that this is not a problem for Dragons as they can just activate their Legacies willy nilly.

+Leviathans despite having more forms, technically, they has a much slower and costlier transformation mechanic that can take multiple turns to work out. Assuming both start in human form, a dragon is already a dragon by the time the average leviathan is halfway there... not to mention not wasting willpower and actions for the attempt at transformation.

In short dragons and leviathans are a very close match for each other particularly at high level play, assuming both sides are built to be terrible god monster kings. Dragons would win in a straight up fight but the Leviathans have some tricks up their sleeves, particularly in psionics and 8 again.

[Dragonus45]

I don't have a lot to add right this moment other than HOLY HELL THIS LOOKS AWESOME. I promise I will have more to add once I finish reading the doc.

[One Tin Soldier]

Xal, how does the work on Heritages fare right now?

Also, has there been a resolution on how Breath of the Inferno works?Does it get the +3 bonus for being a full burst? Also, why does it not get extra damage for suceesses? Additionally, does it as a magical fire attack bypass traditional forms of armor?

We kinda like the idea that Heritages are something that appeared after the fall of the Empire. Specifically, they follow the archetypes of some of the first dragons who Inherited instead of being born dragons, since they were the first to have to define themselves in order to gain their forms. These dragons were supposedly Queztalcoatl, Fafnir, Lerna, Nidhogg, and Hualong. We're also playing with the idea that these dragons were the leaders of Houses who all attempted to go for the throne in the decades following the Empire's fall.

As of now, Breath does not grant the autofire +3 bonus. Successes do not grant additional damage because ultimately, it's still normal fire, and good aim can only do so much when you're already bathing them in it. (Also because, since it's their main option for group damage, not making it easy for them to instakill entire groups is kinda important.) It might bypass armor if it makes sense, or even by protected against more by flame-retardant materials. So the guy in the bulletproof vest might not get any protection, while the firefighter could last significantly longer than the guy in full plate.



I'm not sure how to to recomend it. Kau seems to be okay, but that might just be me. Perhaps they could be best represented by the generic "Spirit rules" since it seems you're going for a theme of where they are not truly part of the human world. Their fluff strikes me as they have no adapted and are detatched from everything so that might be it.

We'll keep that in mind as an option. (That in particular would connect them to the Despoilers.)


Also, I ended up comparing Leviathan and Dragon over the week, mostly because they were so similar and because I had idea involving King Ghidorah and Godzilla fighting against each other. I like fansplats after all. Results are bellow:



Despite not being updated to GMC, the sea monsters actually match dragons fairly well a little more closer than the werewolf scenario.


-Assuming 1e exp = beats, that means favored Channels cost 5, that mean Leviathans have about the same cost efficiency as dragons when it comes to selecting vestiges with results that are mostly the same statistics (buying strength boosting and claws would both cost about the same as R5 Bones) leviathan powers are only slightly weaker by like a point but typically either come with special benefits equivalent to a aux legacy builtin and channels do not need to be ranked. Rather powers are more effective dependant on the stage of transformation and at full formation are equivalent to half of a 4 or 5 dot attribute boosting legacy with some auxullaries.

-In terms of weather of Elemental control dragons are actually slightly weaker in this regard since aside from fire dragons need to belong to the right dynasty or type to specialize in elements. Conversely leviathans are not as restricted and a single leviathan focusing on elements can command darkness, fire, earthquakes, storms, water ect.

-Another difference is that while dragons can get stat boosts up to 5, Leviathans only go up to 2, but get free 8 again effects or deny the reroll abilities for opponents passively.

-Size is roughly equal for both of them but instead of passively growing the leviathan had to go out of his way too boost size. If he does the dragon will need to wait for a while to catch up and even then the leviathan can boost size much more efficiently than the dragon. Still, without specifically gearing for it, the dragon will typically outsize the leviathan.

-Leviathans also possess much more varied powers such as the ability to corrupt a creature or environment,enslave people, and so on. The most obvious,of these are psychic abilities which can be used for offense, telekinsis,of both fine and offensive varieties. There's also creating combat familiars.


+In the dragon's favor though is the fact unlike leviathans, dragons do not lose energy when under full transformation for being out of the water and have no banes of any sort such as lightning or virtues. It's also significantly easier to refuel on willpower than it is on ichor which requieres being near water.

+There's also the lack of flight. Though all leviathans are expert swimmers to the point they beat out Wyrms easily, they do not have any flying mechanics.

+Leviathans also have the downside of not being able to use their full powers while in human form. Infact, they are just barely above human in human form and need to gradually ramp up to being a primordial sea monster to use their powers effectively. As the game designers, you know that this is not a problem for Dragons as they can just activate their Legacies willy nilly.

+Leviathans despite having more forms, technically, they has a much slower and costlier transformation mechanic that can take multiple turns to work out. Assuming both start in human form, a dragon is already a dragon by the time the average leviathan is halfway there... not to mention not wasting willpower and actions for the attempt at transformation.

In short dragons and leviathans are a very close match for each other particularly at high level play, assuming both sides are built to be terrible god monster kings. Dragons would win in a straight up fight but the Leviathans have some tricks up their sleeves, particularly in psionics and 8 again.

Cool. I'm glad that Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is a thing that can plausibly happen here, and that it's reasonably balanced.


I don't have a lot to add right this moment other than HOLY HELL THIS LOOKS AWESOME. I promise I will have more to add once I finish reading the doc.

Welcome to the thread!

[Almarck]

Well alright houses sound interesting now. More so than before. I take it that,there's a reason the ancient dragons all have names related to human mythology.

Alright so for Breath you may want to clarifies that it functions like a full burst but does not receive the full +3 bonus to hit. Additionally you may want to remove defense as a penalty to using it since it means against even mortals can just evade a typical starting dragons attack since defense is so much higher now.

You could either say that lowest wits or dexterity is what is subtracted from the activation pool or that it is treated as a firearms attack in which case no defense unless a special ability or merit allows it. I don't know I just think it's so difficult to use in its current state but I know I could be wrong.

[One Tin Soldier]

Well alright houses sound interesting now. More so than before. I take it that,there's a reason the ancient dragons all have names related to human mythology.

Likely either human mythology twisted the stories of those dragons, or the stories of the dragons got mixed up with the human stories (it's a bit suspicious that the stories are all fairly well-known ones from very different cultures and time periods), something else, or some combination of the above. So maybe the Queztalcoatl that dragons talk about wasn't really the one from Aztec culture, but their stories were similar enough to cross-pollinate. Or perhaps there was a dragon actually named Fafnir slain by a guy named Siegfried, but Sieggy's side of the story was the one that gained popular traction, and the dragons' side of the story is significantly different.

The meta reason is that we came up with those titles before we had the fluff nailed down, mostly to connect each heritage to a recognizable type of dragon, and now we're tying them in a bit closer to the lore. So we don't know exactly what dragon mythology says about these figures yet, just that they were important to their respective heritages.


Alright so for Breath you may want to clarifies that it functions like a full burst but does not receive the full +3 bonus to hit. Additionally you may want to remove defense as a penalty to using it since it means against even mortals can just evade a typical starting dragons attack since defense is so much higher now.

Defense is higher now for characters who specialize in combat; for most non-combatants it's about the same as before.
Also keep in mind that A) the die pool now scales with dots in the Legacy, so die pools will generally be higher, B) successes don't increase damage, so getting more than 1 doesn't mean anything unless it's exceptional, and C) the system is designed to be most interesting around the 3 die range. If dragons are routinely getting reduced to 0-2 dice we'll consider buffing the numbers, but that will have to wait for playtesting.

[Amechra]

I have a suspicion that the Titanic merit is too good; it's +1 Size and +1 Str for 1 xp. Why would you ever not take that if you wanted to play a strong dragon? I built a starting Dragon that gets +4 Strength, +2 Stamina, and +3 Size whenever she transforms. Half that Strength comes from the Titanic merit.

Seems a tad too good. I'd cut the 5-dot version, and bump the other two up a dot rating. So you get +1 Str and +1 Size for 2 dots, and +2 to each for 4 dots.

[One Tin Soldier]

I have a suspicion that the Titanic merit is too good; it's +1 Size and +1 Str for 1 xp. Why would you ever not take that if you wanted to play a strong dragon? I built a starting Dragon that gets +4 Strength, +2 Stamina, and +3 Size whenever she transforms. Half that Strength comes from the Titanic merit.

Seems a tad too good. I'd cut the 5-dot version, and bump the other two up a dot rating. So you get +1 Str and +1 Size for 2 dots, and +2 to each for 4 dots.

(If I'm doing the math right, you should have at least 1 more point of size there from a Unique Legacy, but that's neither here nor there.)

Thanks for the input. I think you have a good point with the costs.

[Amechra]

(If I'm doing the math right, you should have at least 1 more point of size there from a Unique Legacy, but that's neither here nor there.)

Thanks for the input. I think you have a good point with the costs.

She's a Hydra, and I was building her during the period where you didn't give them the +1 size per dot. So she should be getting +4 to size.

I also think they aren't good enough at healing, especially at lower Kau, where healing prevents you from using any of your other nifty powers. I still think that making it heal Bashing automatically and then letting you spend Willpower to have ti heal Lethal for a turn might be better (and roughly comparable.)

I mean, they don't even get faster natural healing unless they buy the Auxiliary that does that (then again, it is a one-dot, but it just feels like an XP tax.)

[Almarck]

I feel this Breath of the Inferno is currently subpar and I believe I might as well show you why via a combat test, or psuedo play test data.. The goal is thus to figure out how much attack dice will each method of attack have versus what target. The test is detailed below.


I will warn, it's alot of text.



Rules
-Comparison with another combat Legacy, Bones of the Earth.
-Multiple scenarios would be run for each Legacy stipulating an "Average", and "Sub Average" loadout versus various opponents. Total of 4 test groups, 2 for each legacy.
-As defined: Average is treated as a character possessing 2 attribute and 2 skill dots in the relevant traits if possible. Sub Average is 2 attribute dots and no skill dots.
-Legacies will be at 1 dot for the purposes of this scenario as both rank up at the same rate. Both provide the same ammount of damage as well. Stat ups from the legacy will have their own category.
-No additional traits such as merits or Aux's will be considered. As this is featuring starting characters, Kau is also not allowed to be risen above 1 as part of the test.
-White room scenario. No situational modifiers.
-2 different targets in each test. Average Joe: possess average stats, but no skill dots for a total of 2 defense, and G.I Joe possessing 2 extra skill dots above Average Joe, for a total of 4 defense.
-the total attack pool for a given attack before being tested against a target. Afterwards, the test will provide
-Surprise scenario at the end.


Now to begin the test!


Sub average test:

Breath:
Resolve - 2
Kau - 1
Legacy - 1

Total Attack = 4
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0, Chance dice

Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 1 (penalty)
Legacy - 1

Total Attack = 3
VS. Avg Joe (2) = -1 Chance die
VS. G.I Joe (4) = -3 Chance die

In the absolutely not prepared for combat scenario, the melee legacy, Bones loses out because since he lacked out in a skill and thus taken a penalty to attack in the first place. This sheer incompentence reduces the Bones user to the a pure chance die as his character is completely unprepared for combat against even against a normal person.

Breath does not have a relevant skill and automatically has a +1 rating since Kau starts at 1 being a Power Stat. As a result, he fares better, able to hit the average person no problem.

However, the G.I Joe is too evasive and both are reduced to pure chance dies.


Average Test:

Breath:
Resolve - 2
Kau - 1
Legacy - 1

Total attack = 4
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0 Chance dice

Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 2
Legacy - 1

Total attack = 5
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 3
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 1

In the average test, things are reversed.

Nothing changes for Breath in this scenario, much to its detriment. Breath unfortunately lacks a skill and can only be made better via auxiliary legacies or raising Kau further. Character building points cannot be spent on it atleast when starting out. While likely not a problem to higher leveled dragons, newbie dragons do not have a "reserve" or growth of Kau neccesary to make it more effective. The results are exactly the same as in the previous test.

Bones meanwhile is considerably different. Having so much as 1 skill dot would have made the fight about as good as Breath's other two tests with no longer having to deal with the untrained penalty. However, to test a slightly more extreme scenario, I elected to have a character place 2 skill dots into brawl. The result is that the Bones dragon can hit more accurately than the breath using dragon and is able to hit the G.I Joe with out suffering a chance die.

The scenario could also be worse as well. The Bones dragon is freely able to spend more skill points into raising the chance to hit. Breath does not have this option and has to wait for the character to have better Kau for it to raise up. While, yeah, I could buff the Resolve of the Breath weapon, I would have to also buff the Strength for Bone's weapon in order to ensure I was being as fair as possible. In short, Breath loses out.

And the scenario is about to get worse because now I get to pull out the surprise test.


There's one thing a starting Bones dragon can do that a starting Breath dragon cannot: Use Willpower to boost the attack. As using Breath of the Inferno costs willpower and dragons are still capped for 1 per turn at Kau 1 (a fact not likely going to change yet), dragons that focus on using Breath exclusively will not have this option for a while and even when they do, it'll burn through resources fast. Bones dragons obviously do not have this issue.

In short... let us revisit the previous scenarios on Bone's side with the addition of willpower:


Sub Avg. Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 1 (penalty)
Legacy - 1
Willpower - 3

Total Attack = 6
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0 Chance die


Average Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 2
Legacy - 1
Willpower - 3

Total attack = 8
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 6
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 4

As you can see, that willpower expenditure does make a huge difference and I think you will be able to draw the conclusion I am implying.


While there's other weakness too, like the fact that it does not get Successes for more damage, I find that that ignoring most forms of armor and being an automatic AoE offset this somewhat.

However, another problem that is harder to prove but I feel just as important to address is the the super short range. At Kau 1, you're directly right in front of your oppoennt and only a half step away from melee range to begin. While, I am fine with this part, the problem is that at this early point I describe, your range is 3 making your medium and long 6 and 12 respectively. That's barely enough range, adding more to my point that the legacy is currently underpowered.




Conclusion: While Breath of the Inferno is likely going to get powerful once the player starts boosting up Kau high enough, that it does not matter, the problem lies in that it requires a great deal of investment to get it to pay out. The starting dice pool is too easily canceled out by defense in the early game and honestly with its sort starting range, inability to get willpower to boost its attack pool, Breath of the Inferno 1 is simply... lack luster. It should be just as viable at the other Legacies at the start of the game, but well, it's not. I feel you're better off in most situations just using a holdout pistol and running Wings.




My solutions are the following.
=Remove Defense as a penalty for any range that is not outright Melee, like how a firearm acts. This will make it so that the starting character has a chance to use it against low level opponents. There's plenty of enough ways to have firearms defense anyways, so removing the defense penalty is not a big deal if you ask me. The alternative being you do not factor in skill dots when calculating defense against this attack, which I guess works fine as well...
= Replace range with instead of a scaling formula, static ranges (10/20/40). This will go a long way into atleast making the breath weapon more viable early game. Just add another Legacy to replace the range with something better later. Also has the advantage of having characters not need recalculate their ranges everytime they level up Kau.


Again, I reiterate, the problem is in the early, early game. Later game, these things stop being issues. If I was a dragon and would want to be good at Breath of the Inferno right out the gate, not have to wait for several sessions or dump numerous different build points just to make it usable.

[One Tin Soldier]

I feel this Breath of the Inferno is currently subpar and I believe I might as well show you why via a combat test, or psuedo play test data.. The goal is thus to figure out how much attack dice will each method of attack have versus what target. The test is detailed below.


I will warn, it's alot of text.



Rules
-Comparison with another combat Legacy, Bones of the Earth.
-Multiple scenarios would be run for each Legacy stipulating an "Average", and "Sub Average" loadout versus various opponents. Total of 4 test groups, 2 for each legacy.
-As defined: Average is treated as a character possessing 2 attribute and 2 skill dots in the relevant traits if possible. Sub Average is 2 attribute dots and no skill dots.
-Legacies will be at 1 dot for the purposes of this scenario as both rank up at the same rate. Both provide the same ammount of damage as well. Stat ups from the legacy will have their own category.
-No additional traits such as merits or Aux's will be considered. As this is featuring starting characters, Kau is also not allowed to be risen above 1 as part of the test.
-White room scenario. No situational modifiers.
-2 different targets in each test. Average Joe: possess average stats, but no skill dots for a total of 2 defense, and G.I Joe possessing 2 extra skill dots above Average Joe, for a total of 4 defense.
-the total attack pool for a given attack before being tested against a target. Afterwards, the test will provide
-Surprise scenario at the end.


Now to begin the test!


Sub average test:

Breath:
Resolve - 2
Kau - 1
Legacy - 1

Total Attack = 4
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0, Chance dice

Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 1 (penalty)
Legacy - 1

Total Attack = 3
VS. Avg Joe (2) = -1 Chance die
VS. G.I Joe (4) = -3 Chance die

In the absolutely not prepared for combat scenario, the melee legacy, Bones loses out because since he lacked out in a skill and thus taken a penalty to attack in the first place. This sheer incompentence reduces the Bones user to the a pure chance die as his character is completely unprepared for combat against even against a normal person.

Breath does not have a relevant skill and automatically has a +1 rating since Kau starts at 1 being a Power Stat. As a result, he fares better, able to hit the average person no problem.

However, the G.I Joe is too evasive and both are reduced to pure chance dies.


Average Test:

Breath:
Resolve - 2
Kau - 1
Legacy - 1

Total attack = 4
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0 Chance dice

Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 2
Legacy - 1

Total attack = 5
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 3
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 1

In the average test, things are reversed.

Nothing changes for Breath in this scenario, much to its detriment. Breath unfortunately lacks a skill and can only be made better via auxiliary legacies or raising Kau further. Character building points cannot be spent on it atleast when starting out. While likely not a problem to higher leveled dragons, newbie dragons do not have a "reserve" or growth of Kau neccesary to make it more effective. The results are exactly the same as in the previous test.

Bones meanwhile is considerably different. Having so much as 1 skill dot would have made the fight about as good as Breath's other two tests with no longer having to deal with the untrained penalty. However, to test a slightly more extreme scenario, I elected to have a character place 2 skill dots into brawl. The result is that the Bones dragon can hit more accurately than the breath using dragon and is able to hit the G.I Joe with out suffering a chance die.

The scenario could also be worse as well. The Bones dragon is freely able to spend more skill points into raising the chance to hit. Breath does not have this option and has to wait for the character to have better Kau for it to raise up. While, yeah, I could buff the Resolve of the Breath weapon, I would have to also buff the Strength for Bone's weapon in order to ensure I was being as fair as possible. In short, Breath loses out.

And the scenario is about to get worse because now I get to pull out the surprise test.


There's one thing a starting Bones dragon can do that a starting Breath dragon cannot: Use Willpower to boost the attack. As using Breath of the Inferno costs willpower and dragons are still capped for 1 per turn at Kau 1 (a fact not likely going to change yet), dragons that focus on using Breath exclusively will not have this option for a while and even when they do, it'll burn through resources fast. Bones dragons obviously do not have this issue.

In short... let us revisit the previous scenarios on Bone's side with the addition of willpower:


Sub Avg. Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 1 (penalty)
Legacy - 1
Willpower - 3

Total Attack = 6
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 2
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 0 Chance die


Average Bones :
Strength - 2
Brawl - 2
Legacy - 1
Willpower - 3

Total attack = 8
VS. Avg Joe (2) = 6
VS. G.I Joe (4) = 4

As you can see, that willpower expenditure does make a huge difference and I think you will be able to draw the conclusion I am implying.


While there's other weakness too, like the fact that it does not get Successes for more damage, I find that that ignoring most forms of armor and being an automatic AoE offset this somewhat.

However, another problem that is harder to prove but I feel just as important to address is the the super short range. At Kau 1, you're directly right in front of your oppoennt and only a half step away from melee range to begin. While, I am fine with this part, the problem is that at this early point I describe, your range is 3 making your medium and long 6 and 12 respectively. That's barely enough range, adding more to my point that the legacy is currently underpowered.




Conclusion: While Breath of the Inferno is likely going to get powerful once the player starts boosting up Kau high enough, that it does not matter, the problem lies in that it requires a great deal of investment to get it to pay out. The starting dice pool is too easily canceled out by defense in the early game and honestly with its sort starting range, inability to get willpower to boost its attack pool, Breath of the Inferno 1 is simply... lack luster. It should be just as viable at the other Legacies at the start of the game, but well, it's not. I feel you're better off in most situations just using a holdout pistol and running Wings.




My solutions are the following.
=Remove Defense as a penalty for any range that is not outright Melee, like how a firearm acts. This will make it so that the starting character has a chance to use it against low level opponents. There's plenty of enough ways to have firearms defense anyways, so removing the defense penalty is not a big deal if you ask me. The alternative being you do not factor in skill dots when calculating defense against this attack, which I guess works fine as well...
= Replace range with instead of a scaling formula, static ranges (10/20/40). This will go a long way into atleast making the breath weapon more viable early game. Just add another Legacy to replace the range with something better later. Also has the advantage of having characters not need recalculate their ranges everytime they level up Kau.


Again, I reiterate, the problem is in the early, early game. Later game, these things stop being issues. If I was a dragon and would want to be good at Breath of the Inferno right out the gate, not have to wait for several sessions or dump numerous different build points just to make it usable.

My notes:
1) As you mentioned, built-in AoE is the big advantage that Breath has. When fighting multiple opponents, have the option to bathe them all in fire simultaneously is a big factor. (It's another reason why we haven't been giving them successes to damage, too.)
2) Short Range is Resolve times 3, not Kau times 3. The absolute minimum on that short range is 6 yards, not 3. Admittedly, that's still within easy knife charge range, but I feel like most dragons with this legacy will have 3 or 4 Res at character creation, going up to 5 or 6 as they buy up the Legacy. It's still short by firearm standards, yes, but that's what Flame Lance is there for.
3) I think opponents should get Defense because denying it is Firearms' thing. You can't dodge bullets without supernatural capabilities, but I can easily picture a Hunter or a Slayer or other mortal opponents diving out of the way of a fire blast. Arrows, thrown weapons, grenades, and every other projectile that isn't fired from a gun allows for Defense; I don't see a good reason why fire should ignore it.
4) I will make a note that most armor is less effective against fire than other attacks, which should help balance it. I may also consider raising the damage on the fire, though I'll definitely want to do some live rolling tests first. [The reason the values are what they are, incidentally, is that I originally had flame breath use the exact same rules as regular fire for damage, using Size and Intensity, starting at 1 each and raising one of the two with each new dot. Successes didn't (and don't) add to damage because that how other existing flame weapons work, like dragonsbreath rounds or flare guns. I just simplified the rules to raw damage because it felt too complicated when additional damage was the only effect.]
After discussing it with Xallace, we've decided that fire breath will have AP vs mundane armor equal to Kau.
5) Minor nitpick: if being good at firebreathing is part of the character concept, then devoting resources toward being good at it isn't something that I see as "dumping build points," any more than you "dump build points" into Firearms for a character who's actually supposed to be good at guns.


@Amechra: Don't underestimate having the ability to spend to heal at base. Most dragons don't even have that capability; heck most supernats don't have it at base. Vamps can do it basically the same as Hydrae, Werewolves heal fast all the time, Mummies can spend to heal fast, and Prommies can absorb electricity to heal. Being able to do it at all is still a step above Changelings, Sin-Eaters, Demons, Mages, and of course Hunters and other mortals. They all have to buy specific powers to heal fast, gather special resources, or wait it out like every other chump. And even the guys who do get to spend to heal at base run into the same problem you just mentioned: having to spend resources on healing that aren't going towards their other cool powers.

[Almarck]

Your points are fair particularly on the Resolve for calculation of ranged part, so I'll withdraw that part.



By the way, I did some digging, specificially in the 1e core rules since 2e does not have grenade or archery rules yet. Archery does not allow Defense either, so bear that in mind. This may change in Hurt Locker, but for now, page 154 in the core book covers archery and guns as the same thing attack roll wise.

You are right that thrown weapons penalize defense against the attack roll, but grenades are in an odd situation because technically, you do not need to hit your opponents, just the area next to them. No entry I could find has been for nor against defense penalizing, just that when it goes off, defense offers no protection.

Once again, technically old edition rules, but the differences between the two are mostly in melee combat and armor rules anyways. Defense just has a slightly different calculation.

Also, flamethrowers are treated as firearms and well, you get the idea.


My point is that it is a very hard legacy to work with. It's very impractical to rank up compared to Bones, even after factoring building towards it, its a very high oppurtunity cost to pay. As I keep saying, the problem is in the early game, not the midgame or late game, because the AoE effect is simply not doable with a low dice pool penalized by defense unless we're dealing with swarms or such.

Perhaps, as a compromise, I have the following proposal: "characters who are subject to a Breath of the Inferno attack do not add their skill bonus to their defense against the attack", representing it's fast and overwhelming, but not completely unavoidable. As a result, they use their Dex or Wits and any other defense bonuses like Celerity to avoid it. Sort of like how Werewolf Primal Fear works and they ignore this rule if they get defense versus firearms. This will make it useful in all levels of play. Slayers of course will be able to use their skill bonus, setting them apart from other rivals since they have an innate counter to the dragon's signature weapons, something no other supernatural or combatant can do.

Maybe a little strongish, but as you said before, the damage is not increased by successes.

Although, I will not that I find it fascinating that the Legacy had such an early iteration. Granted, I guess the fire rules are okay. They're still mostly found in 1e right? I am actually kind of curious as to what inspired the mechanics for the Legacy.

But whatever, I guess I will not stress you out on this particular topic too much until it's time to really do combat tests or something. I suppose I jusst get overzealous.


Speaking of other things:

Does Flamewalker work if you're in a burning building if it was set on fire specifically to kill people? Because technically, it is being weaponized.

Should Iron Mind from Hide of Iron be moved elsewhere now that, Graciousness of the Host is a thing?Same with Bulwark of Will.



Also, I had this idea for an Aux Legacy for Lerna's Immortality or Hide of Iron. Once per Story, if you would be slain by an attack while in Anthropos, you may immediatelly shift to Drakonos (thus gaining more health dots to not die) and take an instant action in retaliation, breaking innitiatve. This idea was to go "One Winged Angel" or act out that trope where a boss transitions into the next phase. Maybe add a fullheal type effect.

Could be what you use for Eternal


I hope I am not being overly... enthusiastic as well.

[One Tin Soldier]

Your points are fair particularly on the Resolve for calculation of ranged part, so I'll withdraw that part.



By the way, I did some digging, specificially in the 1e core rules since 2e does not have grenade or archery rules yet. Archery does not allow Defense either, so bear that in mind. This may change in Hurt Locker, but for now, page 154 in the core book covers archery and guns as the same thing attack roll wise.

You are right that thrown weapons penalize defense against the attack roll, but grenades are in an odd situation because technically, you do not need to hit your opponents, just the area next to them. No entry I could find has been for nor against defense penalizing, just that when it goes off, defense offers no protection.

Once again, technically old edition rules, but the differences between the two are mostly in melee combat and armor rules anyways. Defense just has a slightly different calculation.

Also, flamethrowers are treated as firearms and well, you get the idea.


My point is that it is a very hard legacy to work with. It's very impractical to rank up compared to Bones, even after factoring building towards it, its a very high oppurtunity cost to pay. As I keep saying, the problem is in the early game, not the midgame or late game, because the AoE effect is simply not doable with a low dice pool penalized by defense unless we're dealing with swarms or such.

Perhaps, as a compromise, I have the following proposal: "characters who are subject to a Breath of the Inferno attack do not add their skill bonus to their defense against the attack", representing it's fast and overwhelming, but not completely unavoidable. As a result, they use their Dex or Wits and any other defense bonuses like Celerity to avoid it. Sort of like how Werewolf Primal Fear works and they ignore this rule if they get defense versus firearms. This will make it useful in all levels of play. Slayers of course will be able to use their skill bonus, setting them apart from other rivals since they have an innate counter to the dragon's signature weapons, something no other supernatural or combatant can do.

Maybe a little strongish, but as you said before, the damage is not increased by successes.

Although, I will not that I find it fascinating that the Legacy had such an early iteration. Granted, I guess the fire rules are okay. They're still mostly found in 1e right? I am actually kind of curious as to what inspired the mechanics for the Legacy.

But whatever, I guess I will not stress you out on this particular topic too much until it's time to really do combat tests or something. I suppose I jusst get overzealous.

I'm hoping that we'll get full archery stuff with Hurt Locker, but I am 95% sure that it does calculate defense. We've certainly been counting it for my archer Changeling for the past 4 years, and I read a lot of archery stuff during that time.
2e fire rules are also exactly the same as 1e fire rules. It's one of the things that wasn't mentioned in the rules update because it didn't change.

And I'm perfectly happy to put the discussion aside for now.


Speaking of other things:

Does Flamewalker work if you're in a burning building if it was set on fire specifically to kill people? Because technically, it is being weaponized.

Should Iron Mind from Hide of Iron be moved elsewhere now that, Graciousness of the Host is a thing?Same with Bulwark of Will.



Also, I had this idea for an Aux Legacy for Lerna's Immortality or Hide of Iron. Once per Story, if you would be slain by an attack while in Anthropos, you may immediatelly shift to Drakonos (thus gaining more health dots to not die) and take an instant action in retaliation, breaking innitiatve. This idea was to go "One Winged Angel" or act out that trope where a boss transitions into the next phase. Maybe add a fullheal type effect.

Could be what you use for Eternal


Flamewalker would work just fine in a purposely set house fire. If the fire were being supernaturally controlled to harm people it would do damage, or if the dragon was caught in the blast of an incendiary device to start it. The line can admittedly be a bit fuzzy, but I'd say that purposeful control of the fire to harm is the key point. Weapon = damage, environment = safe. To use another example, that dragon could hold the burning end of a torch just fine, but if that same torch is being shoved into their eye by an angry villager it will deal damage.

Iron Mind might be moved, or removed entirely, or split up into different abilities, or etc.

An interesting idea, although I think it might be possible to do something like that already. Since shifting is reflexive.



I hope I am not being overly... enthusiastic as well.

Not terribly. I prefer more enthusiasm to less, anyway. It just shows that you're invested in the project. :smallsmile:
That said, we could probably leave a little more room for other people to get words in edgewise.

[Amechra]

On healing: I still disagree on it being that good; the other splat that currently has a comparable "healing power" (Vampires) gets it automatically, and is also a lot tougher to injure (downgrading all forms of damage except supernatural and banes is huge). A starting Vampire heals one Bashing or Lethal by spending one Vitae... but only takes Lethal from severe overkill and doesn't fall over due to Bashing damage. So it's more like they're healing 1.5 HLs; and they can choose to blow their pool on it, which is an option that Hydras don't have.

Also, most low-level Vampire powers are free; you aren't making that same kind of "healing or awesome powers" choice until later on, when you can spend enough Vitae per turn that the choice is one of resources rather than rate.

The issue is how much health Dragons have while transformed; my test Hydra hit 14 HLs (Titanic ••• + Hide of Iron •• means she gets 6 more HLs in Drakonos). That 1 HL of healing doesn't really cut it. A maxed-out Hydra can have 44 HLs. Healing 5 HLs is... unsatisfying.

Especially if you compare it to the other two Unique Legacies that get a core effect that isn't just "bigger size"; neither of them cost any WP to use, and they're both stronger than IoL because of it.

On other things: I was thinking of my one contribution to the game (hey dere Strength Enough), and was wondering if anything would break if all of the Legacies got an equivalent 5-dot Auxiliary Legacy? So you'd have Stamina Enough, Intelligence Enough, Wits Enough, etc, etc, etc. I'm not saying that they should replace anything, just that it might be neat to have it as a third option.

[One Tin Soldier]

On healing: I still disagree on it being that good; the other splat that currently has a comparable "healing power" (Vampires) gets it automatically, and is also a lot tougher to injure (downgrading all forms of damage except supernatural and banes is huge). A starting Vampire heals one Bashing or Lethal by spending one Vitae... but only takes Lethal from severe overkill and doesn't fall over due to Bashing damage. So it's more like they're healing 1.5 HLs; and they can choose to blow their pool on it, which is an option that Hydras don't have.

Also, most low-level Vampire powers are free; you aren't making that same kind of "healing or awesome powers" choice until later on, when you can spend enough Vitae per turn that the choice is one of resources rather than rate.

The issue is how much health Dragons have while transformed; my test Hydra hit 14 HLs (Titanic ••• + Hide of Iron •• means she gets 6 more HLs in Drakonos). That 1 HL of healing doesn't really cut it. A maxed-out Hydra can have 44 HLs. Healing 5 HLs is... unsatisfying.

Especially if you compare it to the other two Unique Legacies that get a core effect that isn't just "bigger size"; neither of them cost any WP to use, and they're both stronger than IoL because of it.

On other things: I was thinking of my one contribution to the game (hey dere Strength Enough), and was wondering if anything would break if all of the Legacies got an equivalent 5-dot Auxiliary Legacy? So you'd have Stamina Enough, Intelligence Enough, Wits Enough, etc, etc, etc. I'm not saying that they should replace anything, just that it might be neat to have it as a third option.

I mean, most dragon powers are free, too. Breath of the Inferno and Presence of the Emporer are really the only big combat powers that consistently cost WP to use; there are a few auxiliaries that do it as well, but a dragon should always have some good options that don't require spending WP.
And personally, I think that being able to straight-up heal 5L a turn is very powerful. It's not Gauru-level healing, true, but our goal here isn't to surpass Werewolves in healing. As you mentioned, a maxed-out Hydra can have 44 Health. (Which comes with 5 Armor, by the way) Even without any healing at all, that's crazy. An attacker would have to do 11L every turn just to whittle the dragon down, until they run out of WP at least.


That's an interesting idea, but I feel like it fits best with Strength. The idea of doing similar ones for other stats could be a good example for a custom Auxiliary, though.

[Almarck]

Well, at the point you'd be playing the maxed out Hydra, the opponent will be using Antivehicle weapons to begin with and those have ridiculous Armor Piercing and Damage values, even after considering the fact that they currently exist in 1e.

I believe HEAT Rockets have 15L, AP 10. So... yeah. That's not something that can be healed that easily. Granted most parties will not run against rocket launchers and conventional weaponry is still next to useless, but my point is that they aren't as invulnerable as you'd think.

[Xallace]

I think there's room to tinker with the healing powers. Honestly, I'm not particularly satisfied with the mechanics of our current core power for the Hydra anyway. Not for power-related reasons, just aesthetic ones I guess. I'll have to think more on it.

The "[Attribute] Enough" idea for every attribute-boost legacy sounds to me like the dragon version of using Pyros/Glamour to boost dice pools. It'd be a neat inherent ability, I think, or something that comes with buying the relevant core legacy. It works very well as an auxiliary only if it's for Bones of the Mountain, I think - if we expand it to cover other attributes, it doesn't seem like it should fall under that category anymore.

Edit: Or I suppose it just ends up being like Excellencies from Exalted.

Edit 2: Titanic has been changed to a 2/4 dot merit.

[Almarck]

So, what does everyone think of adding Trickster, darkness themed birds of murder and trechery to the list of Garuda? Source, Raven and Tengu.



Just done the new test: Pitting Dragons against Their Slayers. It's a doozy and so I don't focus on it all day, I'm only going to limit myself to one Slayer a day. I plan to have 3 tests.


If you check below, you'll see why. Let's just say it's pretty absurd.




Goal: Determine likelihood of dragon getting slain by a slayer one on one.

Test:
-1 Dragon tested against 3 different slayers over 3 different periods of experience. I plan to be doing each one at a time to give me ideas, focus, and some ways to think about adjusting the next fights.
-3 Periods are as defined: fresh, experienced, veteran.
-At each period above fresh, all characters gain the following increases: +2 Kau, +2 Attributes, +2 Skills, +1 to each Legacy
-Excluding heritage and dynastic legacies, as well as auxiliary legacies, for the purposes of simplicity and to determine things for an “average” dragon. For simplicity consider the Heritage Legacy as a straight +1 size increase
-Assume everything is “average” except for 2 attributes. These attributes are what are increased when ranking up.
-Assume Dragon is in Drakonos.
-Assume no where to run away, but the dragon can still fly off to make dive bombs.
-Different slayers should not pick too many of the same Arete


Disclaimer, the scenario and statistics run on the assumption everyone is unoptimized and is not suited to fighting, at least initially. This is to test out how effective slayers are against (mostly) equally skilled dragons.

Characters:

DRAGON
Str - 3
Dex - 2
Sta - 3
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 2
Athletics - 2

Legacies:
1 Bones = +1 Strength and +2 Weapon
1 Hide = +1 Stamina and 1/0 Armor
1 Eyes = +1 Wits
1 Wings = +1 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 1

Willpower = 6
Defense = 5
Size = 7
Health = 11

The Dragon is only just barely tougher than most of his kind. Not devoted into any one area over others, he is built to be well rounded in combat and has little skill or tact for anything outside of it. As he grows more experienced, he learns more about combat and comes to rely on his strength even more.



DRAGON
Str - 4
Dex - 2
Sta - 4
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 3
Athletics - 3

Legacies:
2 Bones = +2 Strength and +3 Weapon
2 Hide = +2 Stamina and 2/0 Armor
2 Eyes = +2 Wits
2 Wings = +2 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 3

Willpower = 8
Defense = 7
Size = 10
Health = 16



DRAGON
Str - 5
Dex - 2
Sta - 5
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 4
Athletics - 4

Legacies:
3 Bones = +3 Strength and +5 Weapon
3 Hide = +3 Stamina and 3/0 Armor
3 Eyes = +3 Wits
3 Wings = +3 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 5

Willpower = 10
Defense = 9
Size = 13
Health = 21





HEUY - The KNIGHT
Str - 3
Dex - 2
Sta - 3
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 2
Athletics - 2

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.

Gear:
-Wrench 1L


Traits:
Kau = 1

Willpower = 6
Defense = 4
Size = 5
Health = 8

Heuy the Knight started off as Heuy the plumber. Then one day, he met a dragon and was terrified out of his mind. As a result, his mind was broken into and he sees no other course of action other than to slay the beast, but how can a mere man fueled by desperation defeat such a foe?

As he grows more and more able and confident in himself, Heuy transitions from a simply handyman into a warrior, echoing back to warriors of old, the traditional enemies of dragon kind.




Str - 4
Dex - 2
Sta - 4
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 3
Athletics - 3

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.
-Add Kau to escape rolls

Gear:
-sword 2L
-Reinforced Clothing 1/0

Traits:
Kau = 3

Willpower = 8
Defense = 5
Size = 5
Health = 9



Str - 5
Dex - 2
Sta - 5
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 4
Athletics - 4

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.
-Ignore Called shot penalties

Gear:
-Greatsword 3 (9-Again)
-Full Plate (4/3)

Traits:
Kau = 5

Willpower = 10
Defense = 6
Size = 5
Health = 10







Match 1 - Fresh
Dragon attack dice: +0
+ 5 Base attack
+ 1 Legacy bonus
- 4 Defense
-2 (5-7) Size Penalty

Dragon Damage: +2
+2 Weapon
-0 Armor


===
Huey attack dice: +0
+5 Base Attack
-5 Defense

Huey Damage: +0
+1 weapon
-1 Armor

Match 1 - Conclusion:
Dragon is favored, but only slightly because Huey lacks armor. Both combatants are currently at an even match in trying to hit each other. Huey does however may ignore wound penalties (or potentially tilts) due to his slayer abilities.

Assuming 1 success is scored each time, it’ll take 3 turns to cause Heuy to go into Aggravated, likely less if willpower is used. 4-5 such attacks will be needed


Huey meanwhile has to pass through a total of 11 successes to slay the dragon, not as likely with only 3 dice per turn and no weapon bonus.

The dragon, assuming 1 Willpower per turn is likely going to score damage against the slayer, whereas the slayer is forced to rely on luck.

Huey does not have enough WIllpower per turn to actually hurt the dragon much at this level because defense penalties are so high.

Match 2 - Experienced
Dragon attack dice: -1
+7 Base attack
+2 Legacy bonus
- 5 Defense
-5 (5-10) Size Penalty



Dragon Damage: +2
+3 Weapon
-1 Armor


===
Heuy attack dice: +0
+7 Base Attack
-7 Defense

Heuy Damage: +1
+2 weapon
+1 Arete
-2 Armor

Match 2 - Conclusion:
Dragon is favored again, but is slightly less do dependant on how being reduced into the Negative dice works at your table. Willpower is less likely to make up for his inability to strike the human.

The dragon needs to score about the same number of hits in the previous example to win. Though his damage has increased, the Slayer’s new armor makes it harder to kill him. Still, the slayer is human.

Huey meanwhile is favored better. While his ability to hit the dragon is roughly the same as last time, his Arete to add half his Kau rating to damage makes up for it. Even though the dragon has more health now, the Slayer only needs 8 hits to slay the dragon, a very possibile thing at this level if he burns through his entire willpower reserves.

This one is a toss up since the dragon is reduced to negative 1 dice. If spending willpower boosts him to 2 dice instead of 3, the dragon is likely going to get slain. If he is at 3 dice, the Slayer is favored.


Match 3 - Veteran
Dragon attack dice: -2
+ 9 Base attack
+ 3 Legacy bonus
- 6 Defense
- 8 (5-13) Size Penalty

Dragon Damage: +0
+4 Weapon
-4 Armor


===
Heuy attack dice: +0
+9 Base Attack
-9 Defense

Heuy Damage: +2
+3 weapon
-3 Armor
+2 Arete bonus

Match 3 - Conclusion:
This is the dragon’s worst nightmare.

The dragon’s damage from claws is negated entirely at this point, as the Platemail is simply too strong. Additionally, the dragon is potentially reduced to a single 1 dice even after spending willpower, again dependant on how you handle negative attack dice. He’s got to get a 10 successes to reasonably take out the Slayer.

Huey is even more favored than last time. Again, while his chance to hit is still 0 dice,his damage keeps increasing. Now at +2 damage and backed with a mighty sword, he only needs to score a 7 out of 10 hits to slay the dragon, assuming he spends 1 willpower every turn. He also has the option to spend for Rote action attacks, which can be major if he decides to dismember the dragon instead of killing him on the off-chance the dragon retreats.






Final Conclusions:

Slayers seem kind of unfavored early on, but then again, this is a starting slayer against a dragon with reasonable combat specialization and the Slayer being on par with the dragon himself. Had I not selected Eyes to boost Wing’s defense bonus, things would have likely gone better, with the Slayer being slightly favored.

As the game progresses, Huey gets more dangerous in the midgame. Even though the dragon gets more...everything.However, this is only because I took the effort to upgrade his mundane gear to match the dragon’s capabilities and because I deliberately ramped up Kau over Legacy dots. Had the Legacy dots been equal to Kau, the Slayer would not be as favored and be at a disadvantage.

Breath of the Inferno would have become much more valuable against a Slayer once they start bringing armor into this.

Yes, I know I put Brawl where Huey should have had Weaponry. It’s a mistake, but then again, this was technically a brawl.

This first test has proven a few insights to me:
-Ranking up Kau over Legacies is punishing when against a Slayer of roughly equal base stat. A part of me feels that Slayer effectiveness should also be determined by the Dragon’s Legacies.
-Gear is super important for a slayer. Without any gear to upgrade to, the Slayer will eventually reach a point where the dragon simply starts outgrowing whatever could damage him. Once you get to greatswords, the only thing left becomes chainsaws and for some archetypes that’s not practical. Perhaps magical gear at a certain point?
-Nothing stops a Dragon from just leveling Kau last since the Slayer’s lethality and frequency is based solely on the dragon’s Kau.
-Penalizing the dragon based on size difference: while kept the fight even is really… circumstantial and will affect different Heritages differently because of inherently different size growths. May need tweaking to affect all dragons equally. Could also stand to be a “Default” mechanic for slayers as the defense bonus is pretty essentially for anyone who is not One Shot, One Kill.
-Rote Action attack, while I thought was cruel at first proved absolutely useless in this fight. The only time it has value is in sneak attacks or when using firearms. Using it in melee was both too costly and inefficient even with all of the Willpower everyone has.

[Amechra]

Idea 1: Slayers ignore the attribute bonuses from Drakonos. Kinda clunky, but you should have both values recorded. This might be too harsh against the Dragon.

Idea 2: Slayers are the ones who get the Strength Enough equivalents; maybe just have it be a dice bonus, rather than an actual increase of their dot rating. Something like...

Fated [Trait]: The cycle of fate empowers Slayers so that they are a match for their draconic foes. Whenever a Slayer spends Willpower to enhance an [Attribute] roll, they receive a cumulative +1 bonus on all further rolls made with that [Attribute] for the remainder of the scene, to a maximum of 5 + half of their Kauchaomai. If they suffer a Dramatic Failure on the roll, the cumulative bonus increases by 1; a true "hero" pulls victory from the jaws of defeat.
Nine variants of this Arete exist, each associated with an Attribute; bonuses from different versions of Fated [Trait] overlap rather than stacking.



Side Note: The Slayer Arete that adds successes to rolls to convince people is... no. Bonus dice, sure, but bonus successes break the game*, especially when you're getting that many.

* Werewolves can do it, yes, but they are strictly limited as to how often they can do it.

[Xallace]

Speaking of Slayers we are currently looking into revising their powers sets. Right now we're discussing the idea of "anti-legacies;" thematically speaking, not powers that just up and negate a dragon's legacies (necessarily). The dragon says "I am strong," the Slayer says "You are weak." The dragon says "I am enduring," the Slayer says "You are temporary."

I am interested in seeing these powers grow as the dragon learns legacies but we haven't committed to any mechanics in particular yet.

Edit: As for new kinds of Garuda, I think it's worth further discussion. Could you elaborate on your vision for dark Garuda?

[Almarck]

I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.




Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

[Xallace]

Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

Probably for the best until we get some more abilities down.


I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.

Some of what we have so far acts as debuffs, but a lot of it is direct buffs for the Slayer or actions that they can take advantage of. They're really more thematic opposites than directly opposing any particular benefit granted by legacies (in most cases, anyway).

So for example, a dragon with Bones of the Mountain will Enkindle a Slayer who is much more adept at avoiding damage, while a dragon with Tongue of the Serpent spawns one that is very capable at unraveling your social circle.

[One Tin Soldier]

We have significantly buffed Breath of the Inferno. It is still relatively weak at low levels, but higher Kau now allows it to be more cost efficient, autofire is now optional and gives a die bonus (and shorter range than single-target), and Willpower can now effectively be sent to boost the diepool at any level of Kau. Also, Flame Lance has been rolled into the base power, to be replaced by a new auxiliary River of Flame, which makes the core power deal automatic lasting damage.


I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.




Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

We have also begun overhauling the Slayer Arete system, as Xallace described a couple posts up. So it would at least be a good idea to use some of those powers, instead of the ones that were there previously. We have a number of these Arete there already, but will obviously need more to be filled in, so if anyone has ideas we'd be happy to hear them.

The Fated Attribute idea sounds interesting. I'll keep the idea "on hold" for now.

[Amechra]

Idea for an alternate Immortality of Lerna:

Immortality of Lerna - Core Benefits:
The dragon gains the ability to recover from wounds. By spending 1 Willpower point as a Reflexive action, enters a regenerative state for a number of turns equal to the dots in this legacy. On each turn they are in this state, they may perform one of the following as a Reflexive action:

Heal two levels of Bashing damage.
Heal one level of Lethal damage.
Downgrade two levels of Lethal damage to Bashing.

In addition, the dragon gains +1 Drakonos size per dot.

Auxiliary Legacies:
Wounds Seal (•): The Hydra's natural healing rate is multiplied by one plus their dots in Immortality of Lerna. As a side benefit, injuries consisting of Bashing or Lethal damage never leave scars.
The Coils Eternal (•): Whenever the Hydra recovers Willpower, they receive the benefits of their regenerative state for one turn.

Crocodile Tears (••): The Hydra's wounds tend to look more severe than they actually are; as such, any roll they make that would take advantage of their injured appearance (such as feigning weakness or playing dead) benefits from 8-again.
The Masses of Serpentflesh (••): A Hydra's organs have become undifferentiated; a lost kidney or heart is hardly even a big deal. They gain general armor equal to their dots in Immortality of Lerna which only applies against Called Shots; this armor stacks with that granted by Hide of Iron, as well as that granted by Cut Off The Head.

Serpentine Health (•••): A Hydra adds their dots in Immortality of Lerna to their Health; additionally, they never get sick unless they are deliberately infected.
Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation (•••): The Hydra adds the following option to their regenerative state: Remove a Personal Tilt. Taking this option sheds skin around the wounded or lost extremity, revealing pale and healthy flesh beneath.

From a Single Scale (••••): A Hydra with this Auxiliary Legacy who suffers from Tilts inflicted by aggravated damage heals those Tilts when they heal the associated wound. In addition, they gain an additional option for their regenerative state: Spend one Willpower to heal one level of Aggravated Damage that wasn't inflicted by a Slayer.
Splinters to a Python (••••): Whenever the Hydra transforms into Anthropos, they downgrade any Lethal damage they may be suffering from to Bashing damage prior to losing their additional HLs. Rather than becoming life-threatening injuries, a scratch to the Dragon in Drakonos remains just that - a scratch.

Cut Off The Head (•••••): The Hydra cannot die unless their head is destroyed, regardless of whether or not their HLs are filled with Aggravated damage; a Dragon whose entire body except for their head has been destroyed takes the Destroyed Body Tilt. The Hydra's skull develops an impressive hardiness; it downgrades any damage it takes from a non-Slayer source by one step. A Slayer's attacks ignore the entirety of this Legacy; fate cannot be denied.
Ouroboros Swallows Itself (•••••): The Hydra's body devours itself forever and ever, easily reverting to the idealized form held in the Dragon's mind. The duration of their regenerative state increases to One Scene. As a side effect, the Hydra is entirely beyond aging in either form - their bodies revert to the prime of their youth, and they are entirely immune to even Supernatural effects that would cause their bodies to age.

Destroyed Body - Tilt
Your body has been entirely ruined; you can't perform any physical action that involves body parts other than your head, and your Defense is reduced to 0. Finally, taking this Tilt fills any Health Levels that are not already filled with Aggravated damage with Lethal damage.
Causing this Tilt: Severe bodily trauma, being paralyzed beneath the neck.
Removing this Tilt: Somehow heal (or regrow) your body; either way, removing this Tilt causes you to take the Leg Wrack and Arm Wrack Tilts on all applicable limbs (as well as Wing Wrack on all your wings if you have wings). These Tilts are considered to be Permanent unless you have access to extensive physical therapy (or supernatural healing).



I may have gone a little overboard (I am rather proud of the names, though); I'm iffy on the side benefit of Serpentine Health. I'm looking for it to be a more-or-less cosmetic benefit; you never get a cold or the flu, and you can handle diseased materials with your bare hands ("after all, I never get sick").

Taking Wounds Seal when you have Immortality of Lerna •••••, for example, means that you remove one Bashing after two-and-a-half minutes, one Lethal after eight hours, and one Aggravated after a day and four hours. Of course, you could take Ouroboros Swallows Itself and heal to the tune of one Lethal every three seconds for a Scene.

[Xallace]

Okay Amechra, I like that a lot. If Soldier agrees I think we can just port that in.

[Almarck]

On the note of tilts. Do we need to modify tilts so that more damage has to be done to cause them based on dragon size even when the dragon's stamina is relatively low. I ask this because a dragon that is really focused into size might stand a real chance of getting dismembered by a knife despite being size 20. Then again most people will run Hide of Iron since it's so good.

[One Tin Soldier]

Okay Amechra, I like that a lot. If Soldier agrees I think we can just port that in.

I like it.


On the note of tilts. Do we need to modify tilts so that more damage has to be done to cause them based on dragon size even when the dragon's stamina is relatively low. I ask this because a dragon that is really focused into size might stand a real chance of getting dismembered by a knife despite being size 20. Then again most people will run Hide of Iron since it's so good.

Possibly, though then you would run into the risk of it being too hard to inflict those Tilts.
Similarly, I've been considering expanding the range on wound penalties based on total Health. So a dragon with, say, 16 health might have 2 boxes of each level of wound penalties, instead of 1.

[Almarck]

I like it.



Possibly, though then you would run into the risk of it being too hard to inflict those Tilts.
Similarly, I've been considering expanding the range on wound penalties based on total Health. So a dragon with, say, 16 health might have 2 boxes of each level of wound penalties, instead of 1.

How about Kau at certain points adds increased tilt resistance. Like say at kau 3 your stamina is treated as being 1 higher for determining tilts. And it increases but slowly.

[One Tin Soldier]

So here's a question for you all. Part of the fluff we wrote up for dragons says that they heal more completely than humans whenever they're injured. (Think the way wizards heal in Dresden Files.) So the question is: should dragons by default be able to heal Tilts caused by Agg damage? Considering that Slayers are something that dragons will be encountering reasonably often, I would hate to take away a dragon's ability to fly forever just because a Slayer shot her wing one time. On the other hand, saying that they all are capable of doing things like regrowing limbs might steal the Hydrae's thunder.

One possible solution I thought of would be to make the Tilts permanent as usual, but allow the dragon to spend an Experience to remove it once the damage has healed, much like rebuying a lost Health dot.
It would also serve to make purchasing auxiliaries like Sight to the Blind or Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation more appealing.

EDIT: Incidentally, dragons already don't scar unless they want to, so that part of Wounds Seal is redundant.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think that's a good solution, XP to buy off tilts sounds fair to me.

[Amechra]

Where does it say that they don't scar? I missed that (it doesn't matter if you remove it, anyways; just a bit of color.)

As for allowing them to heal amputation... I'd say go for it; Hydra would still be superior thanks to stuff like Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation and From a Single Scale (whose core benefit is being able to heal Aggravated damage really quickly, not the ability to heal from Permanent Tilts.)

EDIT: I noticed a mistake in my write-up of The Masses of Serpentflesh; Cut Off The Head doesn't give any armor, so it's kinda pointless to talk about how The Masses of Serpentflesh stacks with that.



As for Slayers... I think a good direction to go with their Arete options is making their tools magical. Not in the sense of giving them a +1 Flaming Longsword, just that their Arete improves their equipment. Oh, and I would count social connections as "tools" in this case.

A Slayer with Hide-Shredding Arete would improve their weapon's Armor Piercing quality by the number of dots the attacked Dragon has in Hide of Iron. A Slayer with Storm-Weathering Arete would improve their armor's general armor rating by the attacking Dragon's dots in Bones of the Mountain. A Slayer with the Final Death Arete would cause all damage dealt by their weapons to be Resistant, coincidentally screwing over Hydras.

And so on and so forth - maybe not so direct, but a similar idea.

I'd say that Slayers would get the Arete "corresponding" to their enkindling Dragon's unique Legacy, and then two others of their choice.

I think this would be a good direction to go with, in addition to having some Arete that represent Fate smiling on the Slayer, simply because tool-use is how humans deal with big problems. And a Dragon is nothing if not a big problem.

I'd also say nothing flashy; you aren't throwing around lightning bolts, you're killing a Dragon.

If you want me to, I can work up a mock-up.

[Almarck]

So here's a question for you all. Part of the fluff we wrote up for dragons says that they heal more completely than humans whenever they're injured. (Think the way wizards heal in Dresden Files.) So the question is: should dragons by default be able to heal Tilts caused by Agg damage? Considering that Slayers are something that dragons will be encountering reasonably often, I would hate to take away a dragon's ability to fly forever just because a Slayer shot her wing one time. On the other hand, saying that they all are capable of doing things like regrowing limbs might steal the Hydrae's thunder.

One possible solution I thought of would be to make the Tilts permanent as usual, but allow the dragon to spend an Experience to remove it once the damage has healed, much like rebuying a lost Health dot.
It would also serve to make purchasing auxiliaries like Sight to the Blind or Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation more appealing.

EDIT: Incidentally, dragons already don't scar unless they want to, so that part of Wounds Seal is redundant.

I dunno. I would say that to allow wingless lung dragons Wings prossibly regrow on their own without in vestibule because you do need to spend exp to get those in the first place or say that it's one part natural flight another party supernatural flight. And levitatuin is a thing for some drsgons. But that's just me.

Personally I think it's way too crippling to have an exp buy off. The big threee supernatural have relatively easy ways to remove Agg damage tilts: 5 vitae for each Agg a vamp has to heal, 4 days passively for a werewolf per each Agg point with free limb heal, mages and healing magic need I say more?

More to the point,do you feel dragons should fear being mained? Because that question should be what determine healing rates. Part of the reason I bring this up is because reading the werewolf book one,gets the idea that the reason they heal everything is because things like limb loss would get in the way of being an "unstopable perfect predator". Now it's impossible to play a "crippled" werewolf for more than a month. Thus I reiterate does allowing limb loss to stick clash with dragons being a perfected idealized self?

Perhaps the limb loss recovers in Drakonos but not in Anthropos?
Or maybe limbs are fully healed all the time once the damage ticks down but hydra have the advantage of forcing the wound to heal whole others need to wait. Seriously o do think it would be fair to have limb loss be recovery by not spending exp because then hydra would have an unfair advantage as they would not need to spend exp to recover lost limbs after fighting a slayer.

[One Tin Soldier]

Where does it say that they don't scar? I missed that (it doesn't matter if you remove it, anyways; just a bit of color.)

As for allowing them to heal amputation... I'd say go for it; Hydra would still be superior thanks to stuff like Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation and From a Single Scale (whose core benefit is being able to heal Aggravated damage really quickly, not the ability to heal from Permanent Tilts.)

EDIT: I noticed a mistake in my write-up of The Masses of Serpentflesh; Cut Off The Head doesn't give any armor, so it's kinda pointless to talk about how The Masses of Serpentflesh stacks with that.


Right now it's in the Inheritance section, right below where it talks about how Inheritance can "cure" disabilities. Though I think that some or all of it should be moved to the Draconic Body section for easy reference.


As for Slayers... I think a good direction to go with their Arete options is making their tools magical. Not in the sense of giving them a +1 Flaming Longsword, just that their Arete improves their equipment. Oh, and I would count social connections as "tools" in this case.

A Slayer with Hide-Shredding Arete would improve their weapon's Armor Piercing quality by the number of dots the attacked Dragon has in Hide of Iron. A Slayer with Storm-Weathering Arete would improve their armor's general armor rating by the attacking Dragon's dots in Bones of the Mountain. A Slayer with the Final Death Arete would cause all damage dealt by their weapons to be Resistant, coincidentally screwing over Hydras.

And so on and so forth - maybe not so direct, but a similar idea.

I'd say that Slayers would get the Arete "corresponding" to their enkindling Dragon's unique Legacy, and then two others of their choice.

I think this would be a good direction to go with, in addition to having some Arete that represent Fate smiling on the Slayer, simply because tool-use is how humans deal with big problems. And a Dragon is nothing if not a big problem.

I'd also say nothing flashy; you aren't throwing around lightning bolts, you're killing a Dragon.

If you want me to, I can work up a mock-up.

I really like the idea of Unique Arete, as a mechanical representation of "slayer type." It lends quite a bit more oomph to the concept.

EDIT:
Ever since I came up with the Wing Wrack Tilt, I've been considering removing the mentions of wingless flight, since it would be a strict mechanical advantage for what should just be a fluff thing.
And the idea behind "dragons heal completely" is related to their core concept as creatures of identity. Their bodies are a direct reflection of their minds, so as long as they don't regard the damage as permanent, then it isn't.
Of course, losing a limb outright could be traumatic enough to adjust even a dragon's sense of identity, but not all targeted Agg damage is necessarily removing the limb outright.

[Almarck]

Of course, removing wingless flight does mean the characters cannot replicate wingless levitating dragons common in the East. Perhaps as a resolution, "Wing-Wrack" does not neccesarily mean actual wings all the time. In the case of lung dragons, they develop what can be more or less be described as a magical internal flight bladder that is obvious enough to be targetted and "wing wrack" for them is that bladder getting ruptured. The difference then becomes mostly fluff.


Also, I seem to have a habit of posting something like seconds before you post your reply. Anyways, yeah, I'll go with Amercha's ruling on the mattter since I did not see it when I posted. Let all dragons heal limb loss, hydrae just do it better. As for the "trauma changes idenity" arguement, I say burning willpower points might be neccesary in some cases in a sense of "forced rejection" or "forced reinvention" would be cool.

[Amechra]

For the Hunger of Nidhogg:

Gullet of the Fire-Eater (•)
The Wyvern gains general armor equal to their dots in Hunger of Nidhogg; this armor lines the inside of their gullet and stomach, and does nothing to protect the outside of their body. The general armor from this Auxiliary Legacy stacks with the armor granted by that Hide of Iron.

Swallowing the Oceans (••••)
The Wyvern can unhinge their jaws, allowing them to swallow people and objects that seem far too large to be consumed in one gulp. Whenever the Wyvern makes a successful attack with their bite against a character or object whose Size is equal to or less than their Kauchaomai + Hunger of Nidhogg, they may reflexively spend one Willpower to give their target the Swallowed Whole Tilt.

Devouring the Sun (•••••)
The Wyvern doesn't simply devour flesh and glass; it consumes hope, dines upon light, and greedily slurps up spirits. Whenever they make a successful attack with their bite, they may spend one Willpower to give their target the Soulless condition. If the target already has the Soulless condition, they instead immediately suffer a Breaking Point as if they had satisfied their Vice. If the target lacks an Integrity equivalent entirely (or is otherwise not subject to the Soulless condition), this attack instead deals Aggravated damage, which cannot be downgraded.

Swallowed Whole - Tilt
You've been swallowed whole by some titanic monster... this is not a very good place to be. You are considered to be in a level 4 Extreme Environment, cannot move beyond the boundaries of the stomach, and cannot attack anything other than the insides of the stomach and the stomach walls themselves.
Causing this Tilt: Unless you're several times your opponent's size, you aren't going to be inflicting this Tilt.
Removing this Tilt: You can cut yourself out of the creature's stomach by inflicting Lethal damage equal to their Stamina or one Aggravated damage. Otherwise, leave the monster's stomach through the... natural process.

[One Tin Soldier]

Thanks for the input, guys. Once Xallace is available again, I'll get his opinion on which option to go with.


For the Hunger of Nidhogg:

Gullet of the Fire-Eater (•)
The Wyvern gains general armor equal to their dots in Hunger of Nidhogg; this armor lines the inside of their gullet and stomach, and does nothing to protect the outside of their body. The general armor from this Auxiliary Legacy stacks with the armor granted by that Hide of Iron.

Swallowing the Oceans (••••)
The Wyvern can unhinge their jaws, allowing them to swallow people and objects that seem far too large to be consumed in one gulp. Whenever the Wyvern makes a successful attack with their bite against a character or object whose Size is equal to or less than their Kauchaomai + Hunger of Nidhogg, they may reflexively spend one Willpower to give their target the Swallowed Whole Tilt.

Devouring the Sun (•••••)
The Wyvern doesn't simply devour flesh and glass; it consumes hope, dines upon light, and greedily slurps up spirits. Whenever they make a successful attack with their bite, they may spend one Willpower to give their target the Soulless condition. If the target already has the Soulless condition, they instead immediately suffer a Breaking Point as if they had satisfied their Vice. If the target lacks an Integrity equivalent entirely (or is otherwise not subject to the Soulless condition), this attack instead deals Aggravated damage, which cannot be downgraded.

Swallowed Whole - Tilt
You've been swallowed whole by some titanic monster... this is not a very good place to be. You are considered to be in a level 4 Extreme Environment, cannot move beyond the boundaries of the stomach, and cannot attack anything other than the insides of the stomach and the stomach walls themselves.
Causing this Tilt: Unless you're several times your opponent's size, you aren't going to be inflicting this Tilt.
Removing this Tilt: You can cut yourself out of the creature's stomach by inflicting Lethal damage equal to their Stamina or one Aggravated damage. Otherwise, leave the monster's stomach through the... natural process.

I really like the 4 and 5 dot auxiliaries, I'll add them in. The 1 dot ability has promise, I think, but I don't think it does quite enough on its own.

[Almarck]

Any word on the Slayer and regeneration undaptes?

I've also been wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to have different names for each dynasty. By this I mean, there should really be a secondary name that's easier to remember... and speak. While each Dynasty has its official, regal name, they also gain a subtitle or secondary name that is easier to hold onto.





Additionally, on the antagonists, well, I've been noticing a trend at least in the themes of them all.


-Slayers: "Our Mistakes"
-Renegade Dynasties : "Us" but our enemies
-Garuda: Similar, but clearly different to "us"
-Knights: Looters, theives, and pillages


With this in mind, I've actually been wondering, what faction would be the "alien other" or what about the "beastial foe" idea. I guess technically, the Renegade Dynasties cover that niche, but I was thinking on more of a primal level. Perhaps creatures that hunt and eat dragons like as a form of Eldritch Mega Predator, but maybe that's too earthly. Garuda being more spirit like probably act in that manner, but they are still, atleast currently very similar to the point that they might be just a different race that functions very similarly to dragonkind.
Also in the same vein, I've been wondering if there's a default antagonist dragons have to actively face. Slayers are the side effect of existing, not something dragons can actively challenge.

[One Tin Soldier]

I've written up a Size Considerations sidebar under The Draconic Body. All of the specific numbers I gave, however, were just eyeballed. I'd appreciate a second look to see if they make sense.


Any word on the Slayer and regeneration updates?

We've been putting whatever we have into the doc. Nothing super-new on either front.


I've also been wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to have different names for each dynasty. By this I mean, there should really be a secondary name that's easier to remember... and speak. While each Dynasty has its official, regal name, they also gain a subtitle or secondary name that is easier to hold onto.

Each Dynasty already has two alternate names. For example, the Xiuhcoatl are also known as the Divine Fangs and the Sun-Makers.




Additionally, on the antagonists, well, I've been noticing a trend at least in the themes of them all.


-Slayers: "Our Mistakes"
-Renegade Dynasties : "Us" but our enemies
-Garuda: Similar, but clearly different to "us"
-Knights: Looters, theives, and pillages


With this in mind, I've actually been wondering, what faction would be the "alien other" or what about the "beastial foe" idea. I guess technically, the Renegade Dynasties cover that niche, but I was thinking on more of a primal level. Perhaps creatures that hunt and eat dragons like as a form of Eldritch Mega Predator, but maybe that's too earthly. Garuda being more spirit like probably act in that manner, but they are still, atleast currently very similar to the point that they might be just a different race that functions very similarly to dragonkind.
Also in the same vein, I've been wondering if there's a default antagonist dragons have to actively face. Slayers are the side effect of existing, not something dragons can actively challenge.

Personally, I had always envisioned the Garuda as the "alien other" foe that dragons face. And we are considering using the Ephemeral Being rules for them, as someone here suggested.

As for "active antagonists", that's most likely to be other Heirs, both of the NPC and PC dynasties. Within the PC dynasties, however, such conflicts are more likely to be social rather than straight-up physical wars.
See, like werewolves, pretty much all dragons can be pretty good in a fight. Unlike werewolves, however, they cannot universally easily recover from the consequences of those fights. Sure, they'll survive, but only a Hydra or Zaltys is likely to be up and about the next morning. Plus, dragons have a bit more of a general community than a lot of other supernats. Which doesn't prevent cliques and local factions from forming, of course, but its a bit more likely that one of your buddies is friends with the person you want to screw over. So conflicts tend to be of the non-lethal variety, unless there's something really big at stake. So not all that different from regular humans.
When we get around to writing up the Storyteller section, we plan to write up a whole section on inter-dynastic conflict. Which might wind up completely changing what I've written here, but as long as it helps make for good stories I'm fine with that. As long as whatever we write won't make multiple-dynasty clutches unplayable. (Drama and disagreement is fine, automatic enemies not so much)

[Almarck]

I've written up a Size Considerations sidebar under The Draconic Body. All of the specific numbers I gave, however, were just eyeballed. I'd appreciate a second look to see if they make sense.

We've been putting whatever we have into the doc. Nothing super-new on either front.



The numbers make some sense, yeah. You did not however address increased speed since each "Step" is easier to take the bigger you get.


I do think that the "wound penalties" should only count health gained by size increase though, since it's not hard for other splats to have lots of health via small size increases and loads of stamina. May wish to address that or specify it's Heir Specific, but again just me.





Each Dynasty already has two alternate names. For example, the Xiuhcoatl are also known as the Divine Fangs and the Sun-Makers.


Okay, I must have missed that. So retracting that.



[QUOTE]Enemies *snip*/QUOTE]

Gotcha. The Garuda actually strike me as too... similar to be eldritch, though that might in itself be a sort of "Eldritch". I believe it was me that recomend using spirit mechanics somewhere in Page 3.

You know, the way you describe things, it's almost like dragons act like the Greek Gods did and let their followers do all the fighting. Granted, dragons do not seem to have cults.

[One Tin Soldier]

The numbers make some sense, yeah. You did not however address increased speed since each "Step" is easier to take the bigger you get.


I do think that the "wound penalties" should only count health gained by size increase though, since it's not hard for other splats to have lots of health via small size increases and loads of stamina. May wish to address that or specify it's Heir Specific, but again just me.

You're right, increased Speed would make sense. I'll include it.

As for the health thing, I might draft up a few dragons with varying size and stamina, and apply some different variations of the wound penalties stuff. See which ones work as intended, and see which ones break.

EDIT: If anyone else can think of reasonable game effects for increased Size, let me know.

[Xallace]

I would actually leave out increased speed. Speed can be boosted though Bones/Wings acquisition if you want a faster dragon (especially the one auxiliary from Wings that adds 3 speed per dot). Not to mention the fact that the slow, lumbering, giant dragon is pretty classic.

[Almarck]

So, I've been throwing around ideas for more antagonists dragons would face, so I ended up with something a little unusual and I decided I want to pitch it to be something that might be included into the game.

The Human Hive
Aliases: the Horde, the Commoners, the Collective, the Soulless, the Empty.
“Insert Quote”
―Unknown
Since time immorial, dragons have battled their Slayers, fought the Knights of Siegfied, and proved their right to rule over the Garuda and that is before factoring their own internal struggles against other Heirs of different Dynasties and against the renegade Houses. But the Age of Enlightenment and the the subsequent Industrial Revolution brought forth a new foe.

If dragons are individuals raised above the conformity of society to the excellence that is their Inheritance, then the Hive is the exact opposite; that is individuals that cease to be individuals.

None of the Dynasties are certain of their origins or their purpose, many know of their power and their functionalities.

Within the Hive, there are no individuals, no people, just simply a mass of bodies that all share the same perfect will. A Hive is composed entirely of individuals with generic and undistinct and unmemorable appearances, save one trait such as a tattoo or scar that all members of a given Hive. All members likewise share experiences and knowledge, able to communicate with rapid telepathy. However, each member of a Hive is expendable. So long as the Hive is secure and able to rebuild itself, it will not hesitate to inflict casulaties upon itself in order to achieve a given goal, save perhaps the price in bodies being cost prohibitive.

While most Hives are simply content to waiting to repopulate lost members, each Hive also has the option of abducting and forcibly recruiting people into themselves. Individuals captured by the Hive undergo an effect that is very similar to an Heir’s Enkindling, except that instead of awing or creating a Slayer, the effect slowly eats away at a person’s mind and body. The subject loses features that set him apart as different, becoming more like the members of the Hive, but still mostly recognizable as the person was originally. At the end, their individuality and will has been completely subsumed, turning the once person into nothing more than a drone.

Unlike regular Enkindling, dragons (and sometimes other supernaturals) are also subject to the Hive’s Enkindling, a matter that distresses many Heirs when they learn of such creatures. This effect, once it begins within a dragon, slowly strips an Heir of her powers. First, she finds it difficult to assume Drakonos, but it gradually gets worse, until the once-Heir becomes unable to assume her true form or even call upon her Legacy powers. At that point, she is only a stone’s throw away from losing all of her individuality entirely, becoming nothing more than a member of the indistinct masses. Ironically, the only way for a dragon to break himself free is to play the part of the Slayer before it is too late.

However, despite this, Hives are not perfect. Often simple minded and lacking tact, Hives typically try to brute force their way through solutions. Even when possessing members of great skill within their folds, they hardly use them.

Most individuals do not notice a Hive, thinking them to be no different from a typical Cult, but those that know them know to fear.




Rules:
-For the purposes of mechanics, all members of a Hive in an area are treated as having an attribute score (that somehow indicates more efficiency the bigger things get, needs work)
-(need to do stat calculation rules)

-Hives do not have Skills, yet are treated as never taking untrained penalties.
-Because a Hive is made up of different bodies that share the same will, knowledge, and telepathy, all Hive members share memories. When Hives assimilate new members, they also add these memories to the collective whole.
-No matter how many dice a Hive rolls, all dice are considered Chance dice unless the Hive is opting to divert all of its attention and focus on a single member accomplishing a single task (meaning all other members do nothing while this happens). When a Hive is not using Chance dice, its attempt uses the Skill bonus provided by the member with the highest Skill ranks in a given topic.
-In combat, Hives always act on initiative 0 and have a single instant action and a single move actions.
-Hives never have defense.
-When attacking a creature using Chance dice, each attack dice is treated as being a different attack with a different weapon. For instance a Hive that thas 10 pistols and 5 rifles and uses 3 dice to attack may choose to select 1 rifle and 2 pistols for its attack, each is resolved on a different dice, and each is treated as a separate attack for the purposes of damage.
-Hives have an Enkindling effect that strips targets of individuality.

The Hive can in a sense be looked at as the exact opposite of the point of being a dragon. Instead of being a powerful individual, Hives utterly lack individuallity.

I want to know what others think. Is this a good antagonist for dragons to face?

Also what would they get for devouring an Heir?

[Xallace]

I think it's definitely very cool and very fitting to have an antagonist such as the Hive, since we really don't have anyone that is supposed to oppose the Heirs on an identity theme.

I don't really like the suggested mechanics for them, though. If I may suggest some:

Hives/Masses/The Everymen/Whatever may lack an Integrity-style stat entirely, and actually it would make sense that whatever it is they do that integrates a creature into their hive strips away Integrity/Serenity, and at 0 is when they are fully One Of Us. That could also mean it's possible to save someone by getting them to raise their relevant stat again, probably with a lot of effort, though.

It's also possible that they have no Willpower score. I'm a little on the fence about that, though.

If there is a power stat, we could call it Unity or Integration or Indoctrination or something, depending on the precise fluff we want for it. I imagine such a power stat both dictates and is dictated by how many members of the Hive there are, in that higher stat is needed to pull in more members and more members are needed to retain a higher stat. Hives may only be able to keep up their power when within a certain limited range of all other members. New Hives likely form by splitting off from older, larger Hives.

I'm not fond of the idea that only one can operate fully at a time, since collective numbers are their main advantage. Instead, they probably get some awesome bonuses for teamwork actions like 8-agains or reduced target numbers. Heck, they might even share skill pools and certain merits with all members of a given hive, since they share knowledge and memories and all that. Hives also likely cannot be surprised well, since once one notices you, they all do. It'd be difficult to deny them Defense.

Hives need some sort of motivation, some kind of drive. What is they want as a creature template, and what sorts of things would individual Hives want? Are they simply an all-consuming mass, content to absorb as many minds into the core as they can? Or do we extend the metaphor of the "teeming masses rising up" and motivate Hives with greater purpose? What origin do they have, and does it have any sway on their drives today?

[Elricaltovilla]

I would think the natural desires of a Hive entity would be to grow and preserve the hive. Maybe they get stronger/smarter/more influential as they absorb stronger/smarter/more influential people? That would make a Dragon a very powerful asset. They could have powers that absorb the essence of a dragon and integrate it into the Hive. Like dealing damage to the Dragon's Serenity or Willpower to force them to join.

[Almarck]

Well, the big problem I have so far is trying to set them up in a way that the Hive fills their thematic niche appropriately. See, the intent is that in a fight of the Hive versus PCs, the Hive always outnumbers PCs and as the game goes on, the number of them ramps up to suit. To balance this out, I set them up to basically have a ridiculous number of dice, but to have to rely on getting 10s to succeed at fighting. And as I worked on them, this trait started influencing their lore and their noncombat abilities.

I suppose, I could just change it up to say that outside of combat they should get full dice pools with teamwork action bonuses.

As for everything else, I'm working on it.

Currently, I'm thinking draining Willpower dots and power traits would be how they convert, as Integrity is something that differs depending on splat. Vampire and Werewolf get more animal like and Demon well, they can have multiple Integrity traits. Having them attack through Willpower is also thematic given how Dragons fuel themselves.

I'm also thinking some form of Psicombat should be their focus as their goal is not to kill, but to expand as Elric guesses. This would set them apart from the more phyiscally impossing Garuda and other dragons.

[Almarck]

Okay so just finished the update or the Hive rules. You might find them better now. Also I did some thinking and I figure that Hives really ought to have their own self identity which in a sense affects how they operate and how their powers manifest.

With some new changes the Hive is very flexible on what it can be from alien locust infilitrators to super human nationalists.

The idea is that they should have a group identity that overcomes and subsumed the individual.

I also have them a power Stat that also works as their morality trait though I have not set up a table yet. Additionally I set up some supernatural powers of which some you may find interesting.
Are the revisions satisfactory?



Hive rules.

-All members of the Hive possess the same base attributes, skills, health, size, speed, defense, as well as some merits and all dread powers.
-Characters that are assimilated into the Hive lose their traits and gain those of the Hive.
-A Hive starts with all its members possessing 1 in all attributes, Unity 1, and no skills and no dread powers except for Assimilate and Spawn. Everytime the Hive assimilates a new member with Skills or Attributes greater than its own or physical or mental merits, it may choose to take the new member’s traits to replace its own. It may only take a single trait from each person in this way. Once fully assimilated, the Hive retains the new Drone’s statistic, even if the Drone itself perishes.


-A Single Goal: A Hive has goals that it plans to pursue above others.
-Act as One: All Drones act on the same initiative but possess their own actions. Additionally, all members of the Hive automatically share memories and sensory information. This means that in order to surprise a single member of the Hive, all other members of the Hive must also be caught of guard and that members of the Hive attempting group actions gain the 8 again property.
-Unified Will: Drones do not possess individual willpower scores of their own. Instead all drones are considered possessing the same will power pool. If willpower is spent to boost an action for one drone all other drones attempting the same action benefit from the boost as well. The willpower for the whole Hive is determined by a single Drone’s Resolve + Composure with additional maximum points based on Unity
-Ape Shall Kill Ape: Hives may never be friendly to other Hives, as they all compete for the same limited resources even if they share the same goal. At best, they become allies of circumstance and will go out of their way to hinder the efforts of others.

New Trait: Unity
Hives posses the Unification trait, which functions as a combination of a Power Stat and replacement for Intengrity. Anyone assimilated by the Hive replaces their power Stat and Integrity traits with Unity.

As it represents the undivded ideal and will of the whole Hive, Unity provides all members of the Hive the following bonuses.
-Increased Willpower.
-Resist supernatural powers when power traits would be called or in Clash of Wills.
-Determines maximum and minimum limits for a Hive in both people and in range.
-Influences some Dread Powers, particularly makes the Assimilation dread power more effective.


As a consequence, Unity possess the following drawbacks.
-Unity may be reduced as if it was a breaking point.
-Unity is only increased in some circumstances, but is typically done by Assimilated a supernatural creature with a higher power trait that the Hive has Unity allows the Hive to raise Unity by 1. Dragons are even more potent, instead allowing the Hive to go up by 2 if the gap is big enough.
-As unity grows, the Hive’s Drone becomes slightly more obviously inhuman, penalizing attempts to blend in with the crowd.


Unity Breaking Points.
Unity suffers a breaking point and thus is reduced everytime the Hive
-Works against its own identity either through denying it or sabotaging it.
-Suffers massive losses.
-Is far below its Drone limits for its given unity level. Triggers daily.
-Sizable populations are spread over an area far too large. Triggers daily.


When Unity fractures, the Unity of the Hive drops by one and splinters off into desperate shards, the largest of which is the original hive and it gains whatever Drones it needs to stabilize, if is able to do. If it does not, it fractures even further. Any other Drones become independant, forming new Hives (with none of the traits of their old one), starting on their own to forge their own identity.


Hive Identity:
Perhaps the most unusual trait about Hives is that they are actually a very disparate bunch atleast when you compare Hives to other Hives. While they have the same basic operating systems, once Hives establish themselves, they start diversifying and establishing their own “identity”.

This identity is the core “idea” of what the Hive is and what it strives to be, which in turn influences the kinds of people it attempts to Assimilate into itself and its choice of Dread powers. For instance, a Hive focused on self perfection might either choose to develop its members into Ubermenches, focusing on Dread Powers that make them strong and taking in all manner of highly skilled individuals, while another Hive might take self-perfection towards nonhuman approaches, taking Dread Powers to allow its Drones to turn into mutant bug men and kidnapping the weak and defenseless. And yet another might desire to take the form of a dragon parodying the Heirs.

Identity establishes the breaking points for a Hives Unity. There are three parts to this and defying or choosing not to fulfill either of these parts when given an opportunity that does not put the rest of the Hive at risk is a breaking point.
-the image. Or appearance the Hive or its members idealized and aspire to assume either as a cultural group or by bodily changing themselves
-the people. The favored target or targets the Hive wishes to convert to Drones above all else. Examples include the poor, minority groups, or even people who like chicken. Converting the people receives a +2 bonus to assimilation rolls.
-the goal. The final objective the Hive wishes to accomplish.





Dread Powers:


Assimilation:
The most important tool for a Hive is its ability to grow via taking traits from others.
Extended action, each roll is 1 hour of work.
Cost:: None
Roll: Presence + Unity - Subject’s Resolve
For each success, the subject loses 1 point of Willpower which are then added to the Hive’s reserve pool. If the subject is unable to lose further Willpower, such as by being at 0 Willpower points, the subject starts taking “damage”, losing Willpower dot for each success. Once the subject is reduced to 0 Willpower dots, he loses all individuality and becomes a Drone under the Hive’s control.


Spawn:
Hives do not always have the option to take hapless people, even in the biggest of cities. Sometimes it is best to spawn more of their own.
Action: 1 Hour.
Cost: 1 Willpower.
Roll: None
By performing this Dread Power, the Hive is able through some mechanism create more of itself. Either by impregnating one of their own or creating an egg (determined when this Dread Power is used), the Hive expanded itself using current members. One month after impregnation or egg laying, a child is created. This child rapidly grows over the course of a year, maturing into a Drone.


Create Warrior:
Despite the intended purpose of Hives being of one will and one mind, there are times when the rank and file of the Hive are unable to face a threat. As a result, the Hive nominates one of its Drones to undergo a rapid and permanent metamorphosis into a much more combat capable entity.
Action: Reflexive.
Cost: 2 Willpower.
Roll: None.
When used by a Drone, the Drone rapidly changes itself to become a protector of the Hive’s will, abandoning all semblance of humanity… and its limitations in the process..

When this power first selected, the Hive creates a template to apply to all of its Warriors featuring the following:
- +6 Attribute dots to apply to physical statistics, divided how the Hive wants, but is only allowed to invest up to 3 dots into a single category.
- Armor (2/2)
- Inability to suffer wound penalties, but can feel tilts
-All drones act on the Warrior's initiative

Additionally, the Hive’s Warriors may select 3 of the following:
- 3 Damage Melee weapon (brawl or weaponry)*
- 2 Damage Ranged weapon (firearms). Base Range is 60 and is capable of up to Short Bursts. *
- 4 Damage, Ranged weapon (firearms). Base Range is 100 with Armor Piercing 2*
- 4 Damage, Ranged weapon (firearms). Base Range is 30 and is capable of up to Long Bursts*
- Better Armor (4/4) replaces previous armor
- Regeneration. Recovers 1 Lethal damage per turn.
- Imprroved Senses. +3 bonus to perception.
- +2 size.
- +4 defense.


*Note: all weapons are considered part of the Warrior’s physiology and only function when kept as part of the Warrior

Regardless of what abilities and traits the Hive selects for its Warriors,they always appear something otherworldly regardless of whether or not they are super soldiers, bug men, of half dragon freaks.

Detonate Drone:
Sometimes, when a hive is threatened , it must take desperate actions to remove a threat. Drones, being expendable are the first thing to go. With this Dread power, a single drone becomes its own weapon at the cost of forfieting its own life- a cost that is a mere pitance to a Hive
Action: Relfexive.
Cost: 1 Willpower.
Roll: None.
When this power is activated, the Drone visibly starts changing in its appearance, such as by glowing brightly on the inside or have its form rapidly puff up, the only warning that onlookers have of the Drone’s intentions.
Once this occurs, the drone often rapidly advances towards its enemy.
At the start of the Drone’s next turn, it denotes as if it were a grenade with a blast radius of Stamina x 5 centered upon itself, with damage equal to the Drone’s Size, destroying itself in a short of meat and bodily fluids in the process.
If the drone is slain before it could explode, the explosion is likely to not go off: Roll a dice, a success the drone detonates. On a failure, the detonation failed as the drone was cut down before a critical point.

At higher levels of Unity this power allows the Hive to Detonate more Drones at the same time.


The Dead Join
There are times when the Hive is unable to rely on spawning or assimilation to create more members. With this dread power slain foes may be brought into the fold as a temporary measure.



A Unified Whole
The Hive joins together into a single life form representing the logical extention and full power of its perfected self. Typically a last resort or the final achievement a Hive takes, this Dread Power is best represented as a story event.

[Amechra]

Hmm... I like those as a base: however, I would suggest the following tweak:

Hive Rules
By default, all of a Hive's Drones possess a copy of the same sheet, henceforth referred to as the Hive's traits. A starting Hive possesses one dot in all Attributes, zero ranks in all skills, Unity 3, zero dots of merits, and the Assimilate and Spawn Dread Powers.

Hives possess the following abilities by default:
One Mind, a Hundred Bodies: A Hive possesses a single Aspiration, as well as single Willpower pool shared between all of their members; a Hive's maximum Willpower is equal to their Resolve + Composure. A Hive's Drones are about as important to it as individual cells; as such, they never suffer the Beaten Down tilt.
Inhuman Network: Hives cannot recover Willpower through rest or surrender, and do not possess a Virtue or a Vice. Instead, a Hive recovers one Willpower whenever they would take a Beat due to their Aspiration.
Leveraging Unity: A Hive's Drones all possess the 8-again quality on any teamwork action that consists entirely of other Drones, share the same Initiative count, and are automatically aware of any character that any of the Drones are aware of. If a Drone spends Willpower on a Teamwork action, every Drone aiding that action also receives the +3 bonus.
Growing Experience: A Hive that gains Experience may spend it on any Merit or Speciality formerly possessed by one of its Drones; they cannot otherwise spend Experience.

New Trait - Unity
A Hive possesses a Unity trait, representing both the power it draws from its "purity", as well as its inability to tolerate deviation. As such, it acts as both a Supernatural Tolerance trait and an Integrity equivalent.



Unity

Maximum Willpower

Willpower per Turn

Threshold Population

Dispersion

Social Penalty



•

+2

1

1

Thousand Miles

+0



••

+3

1

2

Thousand Miles

+0



•••

+4

1

5

Thousand Miles

-1



••••

+5

2

10

Thousand Miles

-1



•••••

+6

2

50

Hundred Miles

-2



••••• •

+7

2

100

Hundred Miles

-2



••••• ••

+9

3

500

Hundred Miles

-3



••••• •••

+11

3

1000

Ten Miles

-3



••••• ••••

+13

3

5000

Ten Miles

-4



••••• •••••

+15

4

10000

One Mile

-5




Everything else Unity related pretty much works like what Almarck said.

A Hive's Identity
See Almarck's stuff.

Dread Powers

Assimilation
A Hive grows by bringing in new members, taking their traits and leaving them "pure".
Action: Extended (Each roll represents an hour of "work".)
Success Threshold: Twice the subject's maximum Willpower.
Cost: 0 wp.
Dice Pool: Presence + Unity - subject's Resolve.
Dramatic Failure: The Hive somehow misses a vital step; they lose a number of successes equal to the subject's Resolve.
Failure: The Hive makes no progress.
Success: The subject loses a number of points of Willpower equal to the number of successes; the Hive gains any Willpower lost this way. If the number of successes exceeds the subject's remaining Willpower, the remaining successes remove Willpower dots on a one-to-one basis. If the threshold is reached or the subject is reduced to zero dots of Willpower, they become a Drone. If any of the Drone's Attributes or Skills exceeds the Hive's equivalent, the Hive may choose one of those traits, improving it to match that of the new Drone. In addition, the Hive takes a Beat. Then, all of the Drone's traits are replaced by those of the Hive.
Exceptional Success: As a Success, and the remaining rolls only take 15 minutes each.

Spawn
Sometimes, a Hive cannot risk taking in outsiders; it must spawn more of its own.
Action: One Hour
Cost: One Willpower
Dice Pool: None
The Hive may, through some process chosen upon taking this Dread Power, create a new member. The new Drone takes a full month to develop, after which point it becomes a Larva. A Larva follows all of the rules for a Drone, except it only possesses one dot in each Attribute, no dots in skills, no merit dots, and no Dread Powers. Over the course of the next year, they develop into a full Drone.

Create Caste
Some Hives begin to develop elaborate caste systems, specializing in uncomfortably alien ways. While this Dread Power is somewhat rare, it makes up for it with the threat it brings.
Action: Reflexive
Cost: Two Willpower
Dice Pool: None
Upon selecting this Dread Power, design a Caste; the Hive may permanently assign a given Drone to a Caste by activating this Dread Power.

Sidebar - Designing a Caste
Castes are specializations within a Hive; each Caste brings a different and terrifying new option to the table. Each Caste possesses receives two additional Dread Powers, gains three additional dots of Attributes, may reassign up to three Attribute dots, and gains three skill points to split between their Skills. However, members of a Caste reduce any non-Intimidate Social roll to a Chance die; in addition, they gain a Ban as if they were a Spirit with Influences appropriate to the Hive and their roll within it.




I generalized Create Warrior because I thought of all kinds of other weird "specializations" a Hive could have, such as a queen or living artillery. A queen, for example, would have a unique Dread Power that would allow them to speed up the Spawn Dread Power, or maybe use it to Spawn multiple Drones at once.

[One Tin Soldier]

Hmm... I like those as a base: however, I would suggest the following tweak:

Hive Rules
By default, all of a Hive's Drones possess a copy of the same sheet, henceforth referred to as the Hive's traits. A starting Hive possesses one dot in all Attributes, zero ranks in all skills, Unity 3, zero dots of merits, and the Assimilate and Spawn Dread Powers.

Hives possess the following abilities by default:
One Mind, a Hundred Bodies: A Hive possesses a single Aspiration, as well as single Willpower pool shared between all of their members; a Hive's maximum Willpower is equal to their Resolve + Composure. A Hive's Drones are about as important to it as individual cells; as such, they never suffer the Beaten Down tilt.
Inhuman Network: Hives cannot recover Willpower through rest or surrender, and do not possess a Virtue or a Vice. Instead, a Hive recovers one Willpower whenever they would take a Beat due to their Aspiration.
Leveraging Unity: A Hive's Drones all possess the 8-again quality on any teamwork action that consists entirely of other Drones, share the same Initiative count, and are automatically aware of any character that any of the Drones are aware of. If a Drone spends Willpower on a Teamwork action, every Drone aiding that action also receives the +3 bonus.
Growing Experience: A Hive that gains Experience may spend it on any Merit or Speciality formerly possessed by one of its Drones; they cannot otherwise spend Experience.

New Trait - Unity
A Hive possesses a Unity trait, representing both the power it draws from its "purity", as well as its inability to tolerate deviation. As such, it acts as both a Supernatural Tolerance trait and an Integrity equivalent.



Unity

Maximum Willpower

Willpower per Turn

Threshold Population

Dispersion

Social Penalty



•

+2

1

1

Thousand Miles

+0



••

+3

1

2

Thousand Miles

+0



•••

+4

1

5

Thousand Miles

-1



••••

+5

2

10

Thousand Miles

-1



•••••

+6

2

50

Hundred Miles

-2



••••• •

+7

2

100

Hundred Miles

-2



••••• ••

+9

3

500

Hundred Miles

-3



••••• •••

+11

3

1000

Ten Miles

-3



••••• ••••

+13

3

5000

Ten Miles

-4



••••• •••••

+15

4

10000

One Mile

-5




Everything else Unity related pretty much works like what Almarck said.

A Hive's Identity
See Almarck's stuff.

Dread Powers

Assimilation
A Hive grows by bringing in new members, taking their traits and leaving them "pure".
Action: Extended (Each roll represents an hour of "work".)
Success Threshold: Twice the subject's maximum Willpower.
Cost: 0 wp.
Dice Pool: Presence + Unity - subject's Resolve.
Dramatic Failure: The Hive somehow misses a vital step; they lose a number of successes equal to the subject's Resolve.
Failure: The Hive makes no progress.
Success: The subject loses a number of points of Willpower equal to the number of successes; the Hive gains any Willpower lost this way. If the number of successes exceeds the subject's remaining Willpower, the remaining successes remove Willpower dots on a one-to-one basis. If the threshold is reached or the subject is reduced to zero dots of Willpower, they become a Drone. If any of the Drone's Attributes or Skills exceeds the Hive's equivalent, the Hive may choose one of those traits, improving it to match that of the new Drone. In addition, the Hive takes a Beat. Then, all of the Drone's traits are replaced by those of the Hive.
Exceptional Success: As a Success, and the remaining rolls only take 15 minutes each.

Spawn
Sometimes, a Hive cannot risk taking in outsiders; it must spawn more of its own.
Action: One Hour
Cost: One Willpower
Dice Pool: None
The Hive may, through some process chosen upon taking this Dread Power, create a new member. The new Drone takes a full month to develop, after which point it becomes a Larva. A Larva follows all of the rules for a Drone, except it only possesses one dot in each Attribute, no dots in skills, no merit dots, and no Dread Powers. Over the course of the next year, they develop into a full Drone.

Create Caste
Some Hives begin to develop elaborate caste systems, specializing in uncomfortably alien ways. While this Dread Power is somewhat rare, it makes up for it with the threat it brings.
Action: Reflexive
Cost: Two Willpower
Dice Pool: None
Upon selecting this Dread Power, design a Caste; the Hive may permanently assign a given Drone to a Caste by activating this Dread Power.

Sidebar - Designing a Caste
Castes are specializations within a Hive; each Caste brings a different and terrifying new option to the table. Each Caste possesses receives two additional Dread Powers, gains three additional dots of Attributes, may reassign up to three Attribute dots, and gains three skill points to split between their Skills. However, members of a Caste reduce any non-Intimidate Social roll to a Chance die; in addition, they gain a Ban as if they were a Spirit with Influences appropriate to the Hive and their roll within it.




I generalized Create Warrior because I thought of all kinds of other weird "specializations" a Hive could have, such as a queen or living artillery. A queen, for example, would have a unique Dread Power that would allow them to speed up the Spawn Dread Power, or maybe use it to Spawn multiple Drones at once.

Personally, I'd remove any references to Beats or Experiences. These are intended as antagonists, not player characters. NPCs don't get XP, the ST just determines their stats as necessary.

I also think that the Dispersion bit should be way smaller, and ramp up as it goes up. Again, these aren't PCs, so the design should be focused around how the PCs interact with them. Separating a person from a Unity 1 Hive should be much easier than removing one from a Unity 10 Hive, not harder. And having to fly halfway around the world to separate a person definitely qualifies as harder.
I'd have it start on the order of hundreds of yards, or maybe a mile, and ramping up from there.
I'd also like to have Unity 1 start off able to get more than a single member. If they all start off with only 1 die in all pools, and they have to capture a supernat to get beyond that, then most would never get beyond that point. Maybe allow them up to 3 or 5 or so members at Unity 1, so they can get off the ground.

Aside from that, I think this is starting to look really good.

[Amechra]

Note that they start with a Unity of 3 in my draft. And you could invert the distances for Dispersion, I guess.

[Almarck]

Well I defiantly like most of the changes you put out Amercha. Good work taking the disperse ideas I came up with and turning them into a coherent piece of work.

I especially like the better formating and clean up of the general rules and Dread Powers. I should tune up the parts that you have chosen not to redo though. Improve wording and readability.

I will back Tin's suggestions though, mostly because I feel even a Unity 1 Hive should be at least 10 Drones and because I feel the constantly reducing range kind of works against the point of having bigger numbers.

I should perhaps write up an example Hive to oppose Heirs and cement their role. Anyone got some ideas?

[Amechra]

I deliberately made the numbers for Unity 1 and 2 a bit lower because such Hives are dying - remember, they start at Unity 3 in my draft, meaning that you only get Unity 1 or 2 if they've suffered a couple Breaking Points.

I also forgot to mention that I disagree with assimilating Supernaturals being the only way to bump up Unity; my preferred method would just be making more Drones and assimilating masses of people.

[One Tin Soldier]

Note that they start with a Unity of 3 in my draft. And you could invert the distances for Dispersion, I guess.

Ah, ok, missed that bit. That should work out fine, then.


I deliberately made the numbers for Unity 1 and 2 a bit lower because such Hives are dying - remember, they start at Unity 3 in my draft, meaning that you only get Unity 1 or 2 if they've suffered a couple Breaking Points.

I also forgot to mention that I disagree with assimilating Supernaturals being the only way to bump up Unity; my preferred method would just be making more Drones and assimilating masses of people.

Possibly. I do think that assimilating supernats should be the easiest way for them to do it, though. It gives them a clear motivation to go after the Player Characters, even though it's more dangerous than going after average humans.

I also like that they can be good antagonists for other gamelines, too. I can totally see myself using them in, say, a Mage game.
My headcanon origin for them is that they were created by a Mind archmage using that pesky Create Major Template spell.

[Almarck]

I think spawning more numbers is more reliable and has no real danger other than acquiring more willpower but takes a while, but taking a supernatural provides a dangerous bjtt quick boost with dragons providing that plus a whole lot of other bonuses including boosted gains. Perhaps to make successfully taking a supernatural more appealing, doing so makes the Hive immune to breaking points due to underpopulation for a while since the rapid boost would otherwise automatically be undone if the Hive does not like convert a couple hundred people to make up the difference especially after factoring casualties.

Other than that though I feel that having multiple avenues of growth is problem the best since Unity is so easily fractured from a bad engagement.



On the note of other game lines I can see these guys being a major pain for just about anygroup.
Vampires find their food threatened.
Werewolves face a host like.... swarm.
Demons find another being so similar to the God Machine to challenge or control.
Mummies have a rival to their cults.
Changelings would be scared about reliving Arcadia on earth
I do not need to explain hunters.

Strangely I am not sure how prometheans would react to the hive...or how the Hive would react to them.

[Amechra]

I also made them really restricted in terms of recovering Willpower. They have pursuing their Aspiration and Assimilation, and that's it.

Dragons are a tasty prize because they have stupid amounts of Willpower. If you're running low, and there's a tasty morsel just sitting there... wouldn't you go after it?

Makes me think they need to have an ability that blocks Willpower spending; maybe have it reduce everyone's Willpower-per-turn limit by 1? The cloying web of pheromones blocks out any attempt to rise above mediocrity.

[One Tin Soldier]

I also made them really restricted in terms of recovering Willpower. They have pursuing their Aspiration and Assimilation, and that's it.

Dragons are a tasty prize because they have stupid amounts of Willpower. If you're running low, and there's a tasty morsel just sitting there... wouldn't you go after it?

Makes me think they need to have an ability that blocks Willpower spending; maybe have it reduce everyone's Willpower-per-turn limit by 1? The cloying web of pheromones blocks out any attempt to rise above mediocrity.

Sounds like a solid Dread Power to me.

[Almarck]

Hm, a part of me is wondering if maybe we should bump up the bonus willpower max and willpower per turn grained from Unity a bit more, like say, double. While, it's clearly the Hive will basically be basically be so efficient with augmenting basic rolls, I'm more worried that they'll be facing a big bottleneck trying to manifest dread powers all at the same time.

That plus all but the most Unified Hive would have trouble assimilating more than 3 people at the same time since it'll easily go over the limit even assuming rather mediocre victims.


Maybe a simple solution is that going over the limit via Assimilation causes the excess willpower to be turned into temporary willpower points and must be spent within the hour/day or be wasted? That way we do not need to fiddle or worry about the numbers.


Also, I back the Willpower denial as a Dreadpower. Maybe if anyone attempts to spend Willpower to do anything, the Hive has a chance to steal the willpower point, even if the Willpower expendature goes off without a hitch.


Lastly, a part of me wonders if maybe it would be cool to have a "one-of" special "Caste" of the Hive called an "Overlord". Basically, a super unit that the Hive may only have one of manifested at a given time and is extremely costly to build and maintain, but has ridiculous bonuses and advantages for creating. This would represent in the meta-story either the end goal of the Hive's efforts or the ultimate manifestation of its group image distilled into a single individual.

[Amechra]

Maybe they could store more Willpower than their maximum? So if they had maximum Willpower, and they drained two Willpower off of some schmuck, they have two points of Willpower over their maximum.

[Almarck]

Maybe they could store more Willpower than their maximum? So if they had maximum Willpower, and they drained two Willpower off of some schmuck, they have two points of Willpower over their maximum.

Alright I van dig that. Antagonists cab break the rules PCS can't break right?

So on thinking on it would it be easier or harder to lose Unity the bigger the Hive gets?or rather should it be easier for a bigger Hive to fragment?

[One Tin Soldier]

Alright I van dig that. Antagonists cab break the rules PCS can't break right?

So on thinking on it would it be easier or harder to lose Unity the bigger the Hive gets?or rather should it be easier for a bigger Hive to fragment?

I think so. It fits their amoeba-like properties that big ones often end up splitting into smaller ones. And I certainly can't picture Hives with Unity above 8 being at all common, or even necessarily already existing by default. Hordes numbering in the thousands would be hard to miss.
I also think that it might be possible for Hives to assimilate each other, poaching entire batches of drones at once, or even taking them over outright.

Also, one thing that I wanted to clarify, are the population thresholds supposed to be maximum numbers or minimum numbers?

[Xallace]

Do Hives actually feed on identity? Like, do strong identities nourish them in some way? Because that could be one reason to strike at dragons specifically.

Another question: does the identity disappear completely? Or does it get absorbed into the identity of the Hive? Because if Hives are trying to forge a group identity out of what they eat, dragons would be a great source of the sort of strong ambition and clear personality traits that Hives might like the most.

Now I am imagining drones have some level of autonomy even without independence, right? So while most of them appear obsessed with whatever aspiration they're Whole is striving for, they can still pretend to act on their own and lead otherwise mostly-normal lives with families and stuff (who are, of course, completely unaware that their parent/child/cousin is a soulless cog in a horrible machine). That way they would likely enjoy absorbing powerful or influential individuals to further their aims, since they'd still have access to that drone's contacts and resources. Am I getting this all right? Because that could mean that your clutchmates are Hive and you'd just never know until they start chanting "One Of Us!" while dragging you to the assimilation chamber.

[Almarck]

Do Hives actually feed on identity? Like, do strong identities nourish them in some way? Because that could be one reason to strike at dragons specifically.

Another question: does the identity disappear completely? Or does it get absorbed into the identity of the Hive? Because if Hives are trying to forge a group identity out of what they eat, dragons would be a great source of the sort of strong ambition and clear personality traits that Hives might like the most.

Now I am imagining drones have some level of autonomy even without independence, right? So while most of them appear obsessed with whatever aspiration they're Whole is striving for, they can still pretend to act on their own and lead otherwise mostly-normal lives with families and stuff (who are, of course, completely unaware that their parent/child/cousin is a soulless cog in a horrible machine). That way they would likely enjoy absorbing powerful or influential individuals to further their aims, since they'd still have access to that drone's contacts and resources. Am I getting this all right? Because that could mean that your clutchmates are Hive and you'd just never know until they start chanting "One Of Us!" while dragging you to the assimilation chamber.

Ooh that's all so ghastly. I like it. Particularly the taking up contracts I guess that s something I forgot to address. Identity eating is likely also something I had not really realized until now. The Hive probably does feed off of it, and especially likes particularly strong ones. Dragons of course have really good traits due to legacies and lots if willpower to poach. Strong identity makes them pretty much the best prey to persue?


I will note that my original idea was them basically being given little autonomy on their own because the idea,back then basicslly anmounted to a mindless swarm, but now that I think about it that could just as much a function in of the Hives total identity. By this I mean a bug colony is going to have a different social structure than an academic institution.


Maybe an easy way to express this is that independence and autonomy might be tied to scale and Unity. As the Hive grows larger it starts adopting less human traits represented by the social penalty for higher Unity.


Also question. What do dragons think about the Hive given all of the things we've added on at this point.

[One Tin Soldier]

Ooh that's all so ghastly. I like it. Particularly the taking up contracts I guess that s something I forgot to address. Identity eating is likely also something I had not really realized until now. The Hive probably does feed off of it, and especially likes particularly strong ones. Dragons of course have really good traits due to legacies and lots if willpower to poach. Strong identity makes them pretty much the best prey to persue?


I will note that my original idea was them basically being given little autonomy on their own because the idea,back then basicslly anmounted to a mindless swarm, but now that I think about it that could just as much a function in of the Hives total identity. By this I mean a bug colony is going to have a different social structure than an academic institution.


Maybe an easy way to express this is that independence and autonomy might be tied to scale and Unity. As the Hive grows larger it starts adopting less human traits represented by the social penalty for higher Unity.

I'd say that they should get additional Dread Powers as their Unity goes up, to give a baseline for how many Dread Powers a given Hive should have.


Also question. What do dragons think about the Hive given all of the things we've added on at this point.

That's easy. The whole point of this exercise is to create an antagonist that dragons intellectually fear. Garuda and Tiamats offer the visceral fear of something that is even bigger, stronger, and nastier than they are. Hives, on the other hand, offer the fear of taking away what makes a dragon a dragon. They're frightening in the way that zombies are frightening - not because they are individually powerful, but because there's just so many of them, and when they're done with you you'll just be another member of the horde.

[Amechra]

And now, an entirely different tact; this is very barebones, and would need to be heavily fleshed out (with stuff like Identity):


A Hive is not so much a creature as a semi-sentient organization; as such, they only have three traits: a Willpower pool, a single Aspiration, and a pool of Attention. In addition, they possess a number of Dread Powers, though they cannot use them themselves. After all, when a Hive needs bodies, it just uses its Drones.

Willpower
Hives possess massive pools of Willpower; at a bare minimum, their maximum Willpower is 25.

Drones
Any character with subject to a Hive's Drone condition is considered one of that Hive's Drones.


Drone [Persistent]
You might pretend to still be an individual, but you are merely the pawn of a Hive. You lose your Aspirations, Integrity, Vice, Virtue, and Willpower pool; however, you benefit from 8-again on all Teamwork rolls, and gain the Hive's current Aspiration. Once per Scene, you may draw one Willpower from the Hive's pool to enhance a Teamwork roll where you are the primary actor; if you do so, all of the secondary actors gain the same number of bonus dice.
Whenever you gain a Beat due to this Condition, the Hive recovers one Willpower.
Resolution: The Hive lets you go; you become a Slayer.
Beat: N/A

Attention
Even world-spanning minds like a Hive have a limited amount of awareness they can direct towards one place. By default, a Hive has five dots of Awareness that they can assign to groups of their Drones, to a maximum of five; once per Scene (or hour, outside of narrative time), the Hive may reassign a dot of their Awareness. The effects of Attention are as follows:

Far Away (0): The Hive is paying a minimum amount of attention to that group of Drones. There are no positive or negative effects at this level of Awareness.
Vague (•): The Hive has started to take interest in the happenings around the group; the Drones cannot be surprised unless they all are, they do not suffer from penalties to Defense due to multiple attacks, and are no longer limited to drawing on Willpower once per Scene; they may spend up to one Willpower per turn, but cannot enhance rolls other than Teamwork rolls.
Interested (••): The Hive has begun to take an active hand in the proceedings of the group; the Drones may spend up to two Willpower per turn, and the Hive may spend Willpower to activate their Dread Powers through them, using their traits (doing so counts against the Willpower that Drone may spend that turn.)
Pervasive (•••): The Hive is "here", insomuch as a disembodied group-mind can be said to be anywhere. The Drones may spend up to three Willpower per turn, and are supported by the psychic presence; they no longer fall unconscious when their Health Levels are filled with Bashing damage, cannot suffer the Beaten Down Tilt, and do not need to spend Willpower to attack characters that have surrendered.
Encompassing (••••): The air is thick with an ethereal presence; the Hive lies heavy on the world. Their Drones may spend up to four Willpower per turn, and ???
Saturating (•••••): Anything that draws this much of a Hive's attention is in decently is not long for the world. Their Drones may spend up to five Willpower per turn, and [something something should make you scream internally as you realize how screwed you are.]

However, there is a drawback to pouring so much of their attention into one place; if every Drone in the group they've invested their Attention in is killed, they lose those dots of Attention; if their Attention drops to 0, they dissipate and are effectively dead. Lost dots of Attention are regained at a rate of one per week.


Thoughts.

[Almarck]

Very interesting ame. Much simpler and easier to read than my original pitch and accomplishes much of the same mechanical goals.

I like the idea of having awareness since it basically means the Hive mind (to distinguish the Hive mind from the totality of the Hive let's call it that), basically limited in its operations solely by how much it plans to devote to an area.

I'm thinking perhaps specialized castes if retained in your version have bonuses such as by providing "free" oversight and awareness to groups they are in essentially boosting the Hive's reach with no penalty other than risking the upgraded minion.

I'm guessing you're drooping the "share" everything rules that basically state Drones are mostly interchangeable stat wise? Do you lose your supernatural template if you become a member of your version of the Hive (i forgot about stating that this happened in mine but oh well) Also I think that when let go from the Hive you start yourself a new one in essence given a "colonization " mission. Slayers are dragon specific.

You also dropping Unity to determine effective range and scale of the Hive?

And lastly what are you going to go for with Idenity?more concise mechanics I to figure since I mostly just gave guide lines?

[Amechra]

Not sure; I think Unity was just one detail too many. After all, a Hive really isn't something you play.

Being a Drone is a Condition instead of Template. So you can slap it onto, say, a Vampire, and it would still work. I'd restrict it to Supernaturals that still have Integrity, though, just for mechanical (and thematic) reasons. Though a Dread Power that gives them a variant they can slap on major templates might be... terrifying. I think it'd work kinda like an Idigam's ability to warp Werewolves.

[One Tin Soldier]

OK, you guys are throwing me a lot of contradictory ideas right now, so I'm going to assume that they are meant as possible options, and exercise my right as Writer* to pick and choose between them.

*Or at least, the Writer that is currently writing this up in the main doc


And now, an entirely different tact; this is very barebones, and would need to be heavily fleshed out (with stuff like Identity):


A Hive is not so much a creature as a semi-sentient organization; as such, they only have three traits: a Willpower pool, a single Aspiration, and a pool of Attention. In addition, they possess a number of Dread Powers, though they cannot use them themselves. After all, when a Hive needs bodies, it just uses its Drones.

Willpower
Hives possess massive pools of Willpower; at a bare minimum, their maximum Willpower is 25.

Drones
Any character with subject to a Hive's Drone condition is considered one of that Hive's Drones.


Drone [Persistent]
You might pretend to still be an individual, but you are merely the pawn of a Hive. You lose your Aspirations, Integrity, Vice, Virtue, and Willpower pool; however, you benefit from 8-again on all Teamwork rolls, and gain the Hive's current Aspiration. Once per Scene, you may draw one Willpower from the Hive's pool to enhance a Teamwork roll where you are the primary actor; if you do so, all of the secondary actors gain the same number of bonus dice.
Whenever you gain a Beat due to this Condition, the Hive recovers one Willpower.
Resolution: The Hive lets you go; you become a Slayer.
Beat: N/A

Attention
Even world-spanning minds like a Hive have a limited amount of awareness they can direct towards one place. By default, a Hive has five dots of Awareness that they can assign to groups of their Drones, to a maximum of five; once per Scene (or hour, outside of narrative time), the Hive may reassign a dot of their Awareness. The effects of Attention are as follows:

Far Away (0): The Hive is paying a minimum amount of attention to that group of Drones. There are no positive or negative effects at this level of Awareness.
Vague (•): The Hive has started to take interest in the happenings around the group; the Drones cannot be surprised unless they all are, they do not suffer from penalties to Defense due to multiple attacks, and are no longer limited to drawing on Willpower once per Scene; they may spend up to one Willpower per turn, but cannot enhance rolls other than Teamwork rolls.
Interested (••): The Hive has begun to take an active hand in the proceedings of the group; the Drones may spend up to two Willpower per turn, and the Hive may spend Willpower to activate their Dread Powers through them, using their traits (doing so counts against the Willpower that Drone may spend that turn.)
Pervasive (•••): The Hive is "here", insomuch as a disembodied group-mind can be said to be anywhere. The Drones may spend up to three Willpower per turn, and are supported by the psychic presence; they no longer fall unconscious when their Health Levels are filled with Bashing damage, cannot suffer the Beaten Down Tilt, and do not need to spend Willpower to attack characters that have surrendered.
Encompassing (••••): The air is thick with an ethereal presence; the Hive lies heavy on the world. Their Drones may spend up to four Willpower per turn, and ???
Saturating (•••••): Anything that draws this much of a Hive's attention is in decently is not long for the world. Their Drones may spend up to five Willpower per turn, and [something something should make you scream internally as you realize how screwed you are.]

However, there is a drawback to pouring so much of their attention into one place; if every Drone in the group they've invested their Attention in is killed, they lose those dots of Attention; if their Attention drops to 0, they dissipate and are effectively dead. Lost dots of Attention are regained at a rate of one per week.


Thoughts.

Pros: Serves as a mechanical representation of what it means for the Hive's attention to be on a specific bunch of its drones, and provides a way to actually kill (or at least wound) the damn things without having to root out every single drone it possesses. Becoming an automatic Slayer upon release gives dragons a good reason to not attempt to save every member of the Hive.

Cons: Becoming an automatic Slayer makes very little thematic sense, as Hives aren't really connected to the Cycle of Fate. I'd rather the Hive have a Supernatural Tolerance than not, since it makes a good way to eyeball how powerful it should be. (Much like Rank or other such measures.) I also rather like the idea of all members having the same Attributes and Skills, since it makes the Hives feel much more... Hive-y.

Overall, I like some of the Attention stuff, so I'd like to take bits and pieces of it and apply it to what I was already going with. I'll make notes on my thoughts for changes at the bottom of this post.


I'm thinking perhaps specialized castes if retained in your version have bonuses such as by providing "free" oversight and awareness to groups they are in essentially boosting the Hive's reach with no penalty other than risking the upgraded minion.

This looks like a good idea.


Also I think that when let go from the Hive you start yourself a new one in essence given a "colonization " mission. Slayers are dragon specific.

On one hand, I agree that released members shouldn't become Slayers. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of "colonization." It feels too much like purposeful reproduction, and I like the concept of all Hives reproduction being inherently violent. A new Hive is born when chunks are ripped out of the parent Hive, one way or another.
Besides, I think it should be possible to rescue drones, at least if they haven't been pulled in too deep. The most obvious plotline for a Hive is "a clutchmate or human loved one has been assimilated, go rescue them," and that should at least be doable. Tragic endings are possible, of course, but it loses a good deal of its punch if it was a foregone conclusion. Probably they can still be saved during a grace period, before their mind becomes inexorably linked to the Hive's. After that, removing them from the Hive's sphere of influence just makes them split off into a new Hive.
Hmm, so actually I like your idea, I just don't like the term colonization. It makes the act sound too intentional on the part of the Hive.


Not sure; I think Unity was just one detail too many. After all, a Hive really isn't something you play.

Being a Drone is a Condition instead of Template. So you can slap it onto, say, a Vampire, and it would still work. I'd restrict it to Supernaturals that still have Integrity, though, just for mechanical (and thematic) reasons. Though a Dread Power that gives them a variant they can slap on major templates might be... terrifying. I think it'd work kinda like an Idigam's ability to warp Werewolves.

Like I mentioned, plenty of antagonist races have power stats, and I for one would like to keep it.

And I think that any supernat can be turned into a drone. (Besides, limiting it to Integrity is useless because literally no supernats use Integrity. Vamps use Humanity.) One of my favorite parts of this antagonist is that they can be used against anyone; removing that would make them much less interesting.
Perhaps assimilating a supernat can result in the Hive gaining an appropriate Dread Power, or being able to create a Caste with similar abilities, or something like that.

OK, so, some final notes, because I am getting super tired.
- Attention feels like a good way to represent drones that are outside of the Hive's immediate concern, but the system doesn't feel right to me at the moment. It may need to be tweaked and/or simplified in order for me to feel satisfied.
- In particular, I think that social penalties should be applied based on increased Attention; the drones are actually more believably human when on autopilot than when under direct control.
- "Killing" a Hive via Attention traps forces a Unity breaking point, causing factions to splinter off into their own Hives. (Or possibly onto another Hive, if it was the one doing the trapping.)

I apologize if any of this is confusing or contradictory. Like I said, I'm rather tired, but I don't what to forget anything that I'm thinking of at the moment.

[Amechra]

Again, incredibly barebones; I was edging on 36 hours awake when I wrote that, so it's a bit surprising that I could spell.

EDIT: I think I'll tinker with it a bit more; Attention can be streamlined, I think, though I like the DEFCON-esque scale. We shall see.

[One Tin Soldier]

Again, incredibly barebones; I was edging on 36 hours awake when I wrote that, so it's a bit surprising that I could spell.

EDIT: I think I'll tinker with it a bit more; Attention can be streamlined, I think, though I like the DEFCON-esque scale. We shall see.

I'm thinking that the best way to streamline it would be to remove the limits on assigned Attention points. Make the scale 1-5 instead of 0-5, and have the default be that all drones are at 3 Attention. Then, the Hive can add points of Attention to a single group by removing equivalent amounts from all other groups. So then 3 would work the way we've described the drones before, 1 or 2 would have them be less functional, and 4 or 5 would have them be more functional. Maybe manifesting Dread Powers that aren't Hive-specific (so things like Dread Attack, Blast, Sleep, etc) requires Attention 4 or higher. And perhaps at Attention 1 the drones can no longer autopilot effectively, causing them to only respond to direct interaction.

[Almarck]

The main problem with relocating attention based on groups Tin is hat we would then need to define the attention other groups receive and we would need to define how many groups there are to reallocate from. Unless we develop a "Hive cluster" mechanic there can literally be 1 group for every drone and that would be a book keeping nightmare if managed in its entirety. Now obviously that is extreme but we do run into problems if we assume attention is reallocated from other Drones. It is also problematic when the entire Hive is gathered together to complete a major task and then there are no groups to draw attention from.

In short, I think maybe a universal attention stat is better for logistical purposes though I would prefer that there be more attention to divide everywhere. It also means it's easier to keep track of attention lost due to bad engagements.

[One Tin Soldier]

The main problem with relocating attention based on groups Tin is hat we would then need to define the attention other groups receive and we would need to define how many groups there are to reallocate from. Unless we develop a "Hive cluster" mechanic there can literally be 1 group for every drone and that would be a book keeping nightmare if managed in its entirety. Now obviously that is extreme but we do run into problems if we assume attention is reallocated from other Drones. It is also problematic when the entire Hive is gathered together to complete a major task and then there are no groups to draw attention from.

In short, I think maybe a universal attention stat is better for logistical purposes though I would prefer that there be more attention to divide everywhere. It also means it's easier to keep track of attention lost due to bad engagements.

I mean, that's exactly the problem that I'm trying to solve. If the Hive wants to put Attention 4 on one group of drones, all other drones have Attention 2. If they want to turn their attention 4 to a different group, the group that previously had Attention 4 now has Attention 2. Easy.

EDIT: And if the entire Hive is together in one place, then it can have max Attention on those drones. The cost there is that it is much easier to hurt the Hive as a whole. Though now that I think about it, maybe Attention should be capped by Unity somehow? So that a Hive with only 2-10 members isn't constantly going around at Attention 5. And perhaps there's a cap on how big a "group" can be?
Hmm, this could get overly complicated fast if we're not careful.

[Xallace]

I just want to mention that an attempted assimilation is a pretty good way to have an identity crisis.

And, y'know, become a dragon.



Also, aside from very direct problems such as Hives stealing people the dragon knows, what sorts of objectives might they pursue that puts them in confrontation with dragons? We know it can't be a physical confrontation - that is already taken by several other groups and frankly the Hives have little resistance to offer an angry dragon.

[Amechra]

I have an alternate idea for Unity, for use with my revision:

The Life And Death of a Hive - Unity
Unlike other creatures, a Hive does not possess Health or Corpus; instead, it possesses Unity, a measure of their general coherence.




Unity

Group Size

Willpower

Synergy

Attention



0

N/A

N/A

N/A

None



1

10

25

8-again

One Group



2

15

40

8-again

Two Groups



3

20

55

Rote

Two Groups



4

25

70

Rote

Three Groups



5

50

100

Exceptional

Three Groups




Supernatural Tolerance:
A Hive's Unity is shared with all of its constituent members; they use their Unity as a Supernatural Tolerance trait if theirs isn't already higher.

Group Size:
A Hive is comprised of a large number of former-people; whenever another Hive trait references a Group, it consists of a number of people as given on the table above. A Hive must consist of a number of groups greater than or equal to their Unity, though there is no upper limit on how many Groups a Hive can contain.

Willpower:
A Hive's mind is not like that of a normal human being; it's a vast disembodied consciousness that rides in dozens or hundreds of puppets, thinking dozens or hundreds of thoughts. As such, they have access to unspeakably vast stores of Willpower.

Synergy:
A Hive's Drones are coordinated to a seemingly impossible degree; a vast organic machine, with every cog and cam doing its job to perfection. Drones benefit from 8-again on all Teamwork rolls; once the Hive's Unity reaches 3, they also get the Rote quality. Once Unity reaches 5, Drones get an Exceptional Success on Teamwork rolls when they achieve at least three successes.

Attention:
A Hive can pay attention to and cognitively manage a vast puppet army, but sometimes it needs to move the bulk of its mind into a few vessels. This is modelled with the advantages and disadvantages on the following table:



Attention Level

Drone Willpower Limit

Effects



None

Zero

The Group's Drones lose the benefits of Synergy.



Cursory

Once/Scene

The default level of Attention; there are no benefits or drawbacks.



Focused

Once/Turn

The Hive may activate its Dread Powers through the Group's Drones, using their traits and subject to their Willpower limit.
The Drones are immune to the Beaten Down Tilt, as well as any supernatural ability that would alter their emotions.



Intense

Three/Turn

As Focused; in addition, the Drones' minds are entirely suppressed by that of the Hive. They no longer fall unconscious when their Health Levels are filled with Bashing, don't suffer Wound Penalties due to Bashing, and share all of their senses. The Hive can speak through their mouths and hear through their ears.



Pervasive

Unlimited

As Intense; in addition, all other characters have their Willpower spending limit reduced by one, the sheer mental mass of the Hive choking off their ability to rise above mediocrity. The Drones may make rolls for Assimilation each turn, rather than once per hour, and they may apply the benefits of Synergy to any Dread Power that directly affects another character's mind.





I have to get to class, so I'll pick this back up when I get home again.

Yes, Pervasive attention is insane. Don't get in a psychic pissing contest with a Hive; it... usually ends poorly.

[Almarck]

Very interesting Amechra. I like the idea of attention here since it's easy to slide up and down. Also like that at the highest level the Hive passively causes psychic disturbance in the local area.

Idea. Perhaps if casulaties are taken, Unity Breaking Points take penalties based on how much control the Hive exterts when the lossss aee talied, basically because as control rises the Hive exposes itself psychically. For instance ar Cursory the death of half the drones in the force does not trigger a breaking point. The same casualties in intense is a breaking point. And the same loss on pervasive might be an automatic loss with no roll.... assuming of course Unity also functions as integrity in your draft.

Anyways I'm wondering if the Hive should have powers to basically saturate the area with their influence or build structures that act as conduits lf the Hives will. I'm thinking up some Dread Powers for them and I keep going back to the idea that physical objects, especially monuments, are also part of identity, particularly "national" identities. Also "alien nests " that are alive like in so many scifi
Is this worth pursuing or just move this onto something else?

[One Tin Soldier]

Heh. While you were writing up that material, Amechra, I was making my own variant on Attention in the main doc. Go ahead and check it out, see what you think.

I was also thinking of making Unity a 1-5 scale, just like you were, apparently.

[Amechra]

To be fair, Almarck, I kinda see Hives like SCP 1011 (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1011); the way it warped the workers is very Hive-like, as is the "tools are inferior to the body" mentality. So living structures? Yes vote from me!

I'll take a look at that, OTS.

Edit: Interesting; I think it's a little over-complicated, but that's just me. One thing (yet to be implemented) with my take is that they can potentially focus on multiple groups - also, I think I leaned a bit more heavily on the "psychic mass" thing.

You know, just to keep this project on track, I think I'll split off my version of the Hives and get to work on yours.

One idea for Protocol URSF is that the Hive removes their Willpower spending limit for the scene; it is entirely there, after all.

[Almarck]

Very intersting. Tin may want to clean up the text to specify that by body you mean the entirety of the Hive since that kept tripping me up.
Also can you update the book marks to include the new additions ?



Also Ame, you familiar with Tyranid synapse ?
I'm thinking Hive structures baixsllt function something like that, being concentrated nodes of the Hives will. They should provide buffs of some sort for Drones in their presence or have active abilities of their own.

[Amechra]

Heh. My initial elaboration on your rough idea had "Nests", which are basically Tyrranid Synapses (or Zerg Cerebrates, if you prefer), because the idea of Drones dragging their victims back to "the Nest" was... appealing.

[One Tin Soldier]

To be fair, Almarck, I kinda see Hives like SCP 1011 (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1011); the way it warped the workers is very Hive-like, as is the "tools are inferior to the body" mentality. So living structures? Yes vote from me!

I'll take a look at that, OTS.

Edit: Interesting; I think it's a little over-complicated, but that's just me. One thing (yet to be implemented) with my take is that they can potentially focus on multiple groups - also, I think I leaned a bit more heavily on the "psychic mass" thing.

You know, just to keep this project on track, I think I'll split off my version of the Hives and get to work on yours.

One idea for Protocol URSF is that the Hive removes their Willpower spending limit for the scene; it is entirely there, after all.

Actually, I think I like the idea of using some of the stuff you have there for the higher levels, like the "not falling unconcious" and "suppresses WP expenditure."
Unlimited WP expenditure could actually get a bit too crazy, I think, given how huge their WP pools can potentially be. I mean, would you want to watch the ST roll 80 dice against you in a grapple? Would you, as an ST, want to try rolling that many dice? Does your group even own that many dice?

EDIT: Speaking of which, given how easily a Hive's diepools can become utterly stupid, I do think that I'll put in some notes on simplifying huge teamwork rolls for the ST to use. Or, for that matter, simplifying gigantic die pools in general. I remember doing a statistical analysis on how many successes, on average, each die is worth based on the roll-again number, but I've forgotten what the actual values are now. And no, AnyDice isn't actually providing much help, since I don't have an easy way to get it to calculate successes.

[Amechra]

Alternatively, you could have them get a Success rather than three dice if they spend Willpower - might speed stuff up.

[One Tin Soldier]

Alternatively, you could have them get a Success rather than three dice if they spend Willpower - might speed stuff up.

Perhaps, though that does fail to take 8-agains or 9-agains into account. Still, it is simpler, and doesn't require a calculator.
A pool with 9-again gives an average of 0.37 successes per die, and a pool with 8-again gives an average of 0.42 successes per die. (I went back and brute-forced the probabilities.) (A pool with only 10-agains gives exactly an average of 1/3 successes per die, and a pool without 10-agains gives 0.3 successes per die.)

So anyway, the suggestions I intend to make in the book for simplifying the gigantic die pools:
1) Roll all of the secondary actors' die pools at once. It will make things much clearer and faster than trying to roll each NPC's pool individually.
2) a) When the die pools become truly huge, just average them out, using the numbers I mentioned above. Round down.
2) b) Or, if you don't have a calculator handy (or just don't want to bother with it), just use the following metrics: For 10-agains, give 1 success for every 3 dice. For 9-agains, give 3 successes for every 8 dice, and then 1 for 3 for any remainder. For 8-agains, give 3 successes for every 7 dice, and then 1 for 3 for any remainder. If 10-agains are denied, give 3 successes for every 10 dice, and then 1 for 4.

Huh. That works out much cleaner than I thought it would. Weird. In fact, after checking some examples, it's actually cleaner than option a). So... I'll just eliminate that one.

[Almarck]

So while you’ve got Unity and Attention keeping you busy, I’ve got some work on “Monuments”


Hives have the tendency to create permanent structures upon their holdings, representing everything from nesting grounds to convention centers, to statues to mainframes. Depending on the nature of the Hive, such things might be anywhere, from being well known local monuments, to being secret places in parts unknown.

By gathering their will together, the Hive undertakes public works project to better express and reinforce their ideals; these monuments act as stationary nodes of the Hive’s collective will. Hives use Monuments for a variety of functions, but the one trait all Monuments share is their ability to recruit more Drones, either by performing Assimilate on bystanders or by generating its own Larvae It is interesting to note that even if the Rest of the Hive dies, if any of the Hive’s monuments survive, the Hive has a chance of returning.



Monuments have 4 statistics rated by 1 to 5 each:
Scale. How big the monument is as well as its effective range for its abilities.
Defenses. How resilient it is to damage.
Potency: How powerful its powers are as well as how much access does it have to other powers..
Rate: How frequently will it use its powers.




However, despite these, Monuments are costly, requiring a massive investment in Willpower relative to Drones to become operational.

Aside from other resource concerns, the cost of creating a Hive Monument is 1 willpower point for the total result of multipling the Monument’s statistics together. As an example: A S3, D2, P5 R1 Monument is about 30 willpower while a 5 in everything Monument is worth about 625 willpower.


I get that this is all very bare bones, but I was thinking that at base, Monuments might well be the “safe house” equivalent merit. At this point, figuring out ground rules is quite important...


Also, I would just like to say that I was never expecting the Hives to be such a big topic. I think we're in atleast a week just nonstop talking about them.

[One Tin Soldier]

So while you’ve got Unity and Attention keeping you busy, I’ve got some work on “Monuments”


Hives have the tendency to create permanent structures upon their holdings, representing everything from nesting grounds to convention centers, to statues to mainframes. Depending on the nature of the Hive, such things might be anywhere, from being well known local monuments, to being secret places in parts unknown.

By gathering their will together, the Hive undertakes public works project to better express and reinforce their ideals; these monuments act as stationary nodes of the Hive’s collective will. Hives use Monuments for a variety of functions, but the one trait all Monuments share is their ability to recruit more Drones, either by performing Assimilate on bystanders or by generating its own Larvae It is interesting to note that even if the Rest of the Hive dies, if any of the Hive’s monuments survive, the Hive has a chance of returning.



Monuments have 4 statistics rated by 1 to 5 each:
Scale. How big the monument is as well as its effective range for its abilities.
Defenses. How resilient it is to damage.
Potency: How powerful its powers are as well as how much access does it have to other powers..
Rate: How frequently will it use its powers.




However, despite these, Monuments are costly, requiring a massive investment in Willpower relative to Drones to become operational.

Aside from other resource concerns, the cost of creating a Hive Monument is 1 willpower point for the total result of multipling the Monument’s statistics together. As an example: A S3, D2, P5 R1 Monument is about 30 willpower while a 5 in everything Monument is worth about 625 willpower.


I get that this is all very bare bones, but I was thinking that at base, Monuments might well be the “safe house” equivalent merit. At this point, figuring out ground rules is quite important...


Also, I would just like to say that I was never expecting the Hives to be such a big topic. I think we're in atleast a week just nonstop talking about them.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. If there's space, I think I'd like to use these Monuments.
EDIT: At the very least, I might like to include it as a Dread Power, since using monuments makes a Hive considerably less flexible in exchange for power.
EDIT 2: Actually, that would put it as being quite similar to the Lord of the Manor Dread Power in Mortal Remains, which is intended to model a Mummy's Tomb.

As for why its such a popular topic, that's because they're so different than standard characters that they need a whole set of their own rules and fluff. So of course everyone has their own ideas on what those rules should be.
I know that once we have all the rules down, I want to repost the whole deal on the main WoD thread, see what they think of it.

[Almarck]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. If there's space, I think I'd like to use these Monuments.
EDIT: At the very least, I might like to include it as a Dread Power, since using monuments makes a Hive considerably less flexible in exchange for power.
EDIT 2: Actually, that would put it as being quite similar to the Lord of the Manor Dread Power in Mortal Remains, which is intended to model a Mummy's Tomb.

As for why its such a popular topic, that's because they're so different than standard characters that they need a whole set of their own rules and fluff. So of course everyone has their own ideas on what those rules should be.
I know that once we have all the rules down, I want to repost the whole deal on the main WoD thread, see what they think of it.

I haven't seen it.
So I would not know to compare or between other dread powers.

I will note that I structured the thing to be more like the housing merits so that it can scale up, and down as needed instead of a dread power. Too many variables since Monuments are everything from small shrines, statues, to well... the statue of Liberity.

I personally think that monuments should be while provide bonuses would have perhaps an upkeep cost to keep them working. The idea being that it's a symbol of prestige and growth but one that take out so much out of an operating budget.


But hey. Your are the writer.

[Amechra]

While you guys are working on the Hives, is there anything in the Legacies that you'd like me to work on? I kinda want to take a break from THE HIVES, but still want to contribute.

[One Tin Soldier]

While you guys are working on the Hives, is there anything in the Legacies that you'd like me to work on? I kinda want to take a break from THE HIVES, but still want to contribute.

I still haven't thought of a good Touch sensory effect for Eyes of Eternity. If you want to take a crack at that, or think of a sense that would work better, go for it.

There's also a few scattered Auxiliary Legacies that still need to be filled in.

[Almarck]

It's fine, Amechra, I have the same feelings much myself. I would want to do something other than the Hive for a while, so I'm currently looking into the Knights and the Garuda as I feel they are too... undeveloped right now.I'm not sure on how to further development of legacies at this point, so sadly, I cannot suggest things for you.




On the subject of Hives, a part of me thinks that maybe "Castes" should in addition to Dread Powers, be able to take certain Numina or replace their Dread Power choice with built in "gear". I'm thinking that some Hives will want to take the Blast numen for one, but is not likely going to equip the ability to use it on anything but say a Warrior or something. Just as well, I think it should make sense built in gear would also be allowed, such as say in the case of Warriors again. They'd transform from an unarmed and unarmored human being into say a hideous bugman, a terminator, or something else: either way, their bodies are suddenly equipped with built in natural weapons and armor. Just replace the Dread Power "slots" with gear and Numen, right?

Nice work on converting the ideas that I only partially developed earlier though. Love the work on "The Dead Join"


On Garuda, I've currently got it in my head that... they are basically a Contemporary or a Predacesor race of the old Empire.Except, they did not undergo the sacrices the Dragons did to survive and well.... they are no longer of this world entirely.

[Amechra]

An idea about Sorcery, just at random:

You know how all the Legacies have an attendant description of the form "I am <blank>", right? What if Sorcery used the Legacies as themes? So if you have Sorcery 3 and Hide of Iron 2, you could create two-dot effects along the themes of endurance and protection (whatever "two dot" means).

I'll think of sensory effects. Touch is a bit of a toughie, I'll admit.

[Xallace]

On Garuda, I've currently got it in my head that... they are basically a Contemporary or a Predacesor race of the old Empire.Except, they did not undergo the sacrices the Dragons did to survive and well.... they are no longer of this world entirely.

Soldier and I have been thinking of them as being predecessors to dragons, yeah, although we don't want to come right out and say it in the fluff. Garuda are supposed to be super ~mysterious~ so any fluff we write about them (or would want input on) would be more heavily geared towards their observed behavior than their history. Multiple, competing myths about their origins framed as dragon theories are just fine though.

Edit: And given the whole reptile-bird dynamic and dragon history having roots in the dinosaurs, it's even possible the Garuda are "evolved" dragons. I'm sure some Zmaj is absolutely certain the mythic destiny of dragonkind is to become Garuda and rise above Fate's punishment.

I'm also certain that particular Zmaj is very unpopular.


An idea about Sorcery, just at random:

You know how all the Legacies have an attendant description of the form "I am <blank>", right? What if Sorcery used the Legacies as themes? So if you have Sorcery 3 and Hide of Iron 2, you could create two-dot effects along the themes of endurance and protection (whatever "two dot" means).

Are you thinking it ought to be a more modular system than the one we have currently?

Edit2: We also should make a decision on whether or not sorcery counts as a legacy for the purpose of Unique legacies.

[One Tin Soldier]

An idea about Sorcery, just at random:

You know how all the Legacies have an attendant description of the form "I am <blank>", right? What if Sorcery used the Legacies as themes? So if you have Sorcery 3 and Hide of Iron 2, you could create two-dot effects along the themes of endurance and protection (whatever "two dot" means).

I'll think of sensory effects. Touch is a bit of a toughie, I'll admit.

So something like Arcana?
Honestly, that sounds like way too much work. I mean, look at Mage. That system takes up, like, half the book. *goes and checks* Yep, that's actually right. 180 pages of a 400 page book. Doing a system anything like that would be just too much for a part of the game that not every character would have.
Besides, "two-dot effects along the themes of endurance and protection" are already a thing. They're called Auxiliary Legacies. :smalltongue:


Are you thinking it ought to be a more modular system than the one we have currently?

Edit2: We also should make a decision on whether or not sorcery counts as a legacy for the purpose of Unique legacies.

I've been assuming that Sorcery should count. And if it doesn't count, then we should remove it from the "core dot" dynamic. Because otherwise, any character who put starting dots in Sorcery wouldn't get their Unique Legacy.

[Amechra]

The Mage system just looks long because there are so many examples. I'd suggest looking at the Ephemeral Being Influence rules for what I'm thinking about.

My idea was really just that Sorcery extends your Will beyond yourself; a normal Auxiliary Legacy for Hide of Iron couldn't reinforce an object, for example, while Sorcery would let you do so.

[Almarck]

Mage has the problem of reposting the same spell multiple times with slight variations between them.

For instance, despite being more or less functionally identical save for the kind of injuries the treat, there's 3 different healing spells, one for bashing, one for lethal, one for aggravated. All of them are given full stat treatment, and given their own unique lore entries, bringing the word count higher. And all of them have "Rotes", which double the word count since they all add a bunch of lore. There's 3 different Forces effects, one for "kinetic force", another for "fire", another for "lighting", which if I recall correctly also had multiple entries of each... All of them do damage of some sort, with the differences being what types.

There's also basically 1 "Armor" spell", atleast 1 "Damage" spell, and 1 "sight" spell for each Arcana. There's a reason in 2e some of these spells are getting consolidated together.

In short, Mage's core spell list is basically artificially inflated due to reposting and insistance on giving full fluff blurbs for everything. The actual spell list is probably much shorter if you strip out the multiple redundancies and brush aside the Rote entries for everything. It'd still be pretty big, but probably a whole lot smaller.


Since Dragon the Inheritance uses an "effects" based system rather than a "sphere" based system, we will not run into the same problem Mage had. We will not need to repeat a Sorcerery entry ever. I'll back up Amechra on Sorcery, the idea has merit.



As for Garuda, well, I guess that's good then. I am still of the opinion that more Garuda varieties would be neccesary. So far, I've thought about asking if "Trickster" birds would be a thing, since mythology often has ravens and crows being sly pranksters.



Just as well, what can you tell me about the Knights? I'm thinking with the new changes to Slayers, the Knights are probably... not as impressive as they once were. I mean, now that Slayers have "anti-Legacies", the Knights taking dragon legacies for themselves seems a little cheaty to me. They need more uniqueness.

[One Tin Soldier]

The Mage system just looks long because there are so many examples. I'd suggest looking at the Ephemeral Being Influence rules for what I'm thinking about.

My idea was really just that Sorcery extends your Will beyond yourself; a normal Auxiliary Legacy for Hide of Iron couldn't reinforce an object, for example, while Sorcery would let you do so.

Sorry, I'm just not open to making the kind of changes you're suggesting. Sorcery, as it is, is something we've been working on for months, and the current fluff is integrated into the rest of the game. I'd be ok with tinkering with the Sorcery system, but not erasing all the work we've put into it so far by making sweeping changes to the spell list.

The one thing I do want to do with Sorcery is get a bit into why it's an Heir thing. What is it about being a dragon that grants them access to ritualistic spells? Some of them tap into fate, or the power of blood, or sympathetic connections. What ties all of this together?

[Amechra]

Understandable; would having a few spells that require dots in a Legacy be fine, though?

[Xallace]

Actually, I am interested in the idea of a modular sorcery system given the caveat that it doesn't go so inflated that there's a) no reason not to take it, and b) every reason not to write it. Like Soldier said, 100-odd pages linked to Sorcery is not something I'd like to deal with.

I think part of limiting that inflation is by narrowing the sorts of things Sorcery should be able to accomplish. Limiting them by known legacies is one way to do it, another would be really consolidating the fluff of what sorcery is supposed to be. Magic is certainly something dragons have in certain myths, but what does it actually represent in our system? Imposing one's will on reality creates legacies, not sorcery.

Edit: Well, if Soldier's against the idea. I agree we need to better integrate sorcery into the fluff, though.



Just as well, what can you tell me about the Knights? I'm thinking with the new changes to Slayers, the Knights are probably... not as impressive as they once were. I mean, now that Slayers have "anti-Legacies", the Knights taking dragon legacies for themselves seems a little cheaty to me. They need more uniqueness.

They're based primarily on the legends that dragon blood confers special benefits to the drinker (like Siegfried being able to speak to birds after killing Fafnir). They are missing quite a bit as far as hunter compacts go, though. Never really put much thought into them.

[Amechra]

Would you mind if I made a revision of the Knights? I too agree that grabbing Legacies directly feels like a bit of a cheat (they're like the Spurned, only better!)

Speaking of Spurned, the 2e "thing" is that such half-templates get their own little section on the back, with the idea that you might want to play them instead of the full template (for a change of pace, or just a lower powered game.) Do you think it would be a good idea to move the Spurned into half-template status, and have the Knights be a Spurned faction?

[Almarck]

I’d be for Sorcery not being a general legacy. Looking back, my problem has mostly been that Sorcery felt too out of place being a “Legacy”, and you know, it does not feel like something Dragons “inherit”. Ritual felt like something that is studied, learned about, experienced, not something that is just… given. As a result, I think perhaps Sorcery should represent something outside of Legacy, something… new or self discovered.

Maybe they represent the dragon’s attempts to actively try to find and learn more about the great powers of old? Or maybe something else.
Either way, I can easily see dragons using more complex rituals that require Legacy powers to work.



Thematically, the Knights as they are overlap too strongly with Slayers. They both have too much in the “take power from a dragon” angle as well as representing archetypes of archaic warriors normally associated with dragons, albeit that is a stereotype.

It’d probably make more sense for a “Siegfried” to be the end result of a Slayer defeating his dragon, effectively, transcending being just a mirror of the dragon he chose to slay.

Granted, that’d probably undermine the whole point of the Conspiracy without providing a suitable replacement theme of which I do not have, so let's gloss that suggestion over unless you want to put it on the table.

Amercha has a good point about Knights being better as a Spurned faction. I agree that it would be more interesting and would be quite cool and not something done all too often in World of Darkness except maybe with ghouls over throwing their vampire overlords.

I’m thinking they’ve got it in their belief structure that by slaying dragons and drinking their blood, they can “cure” their condition and “ascend”.
I am also thinking a “Tells” system would be quite cool.

[Xallace]

We were talking about better integration of the sorcery fluff into the game, and we agreed that sorcery should be imbuing the material of the world around you with your will, personality, and ambitions... which Soldier pointed out is exactly what Amechra said earlier. So credit to you, Amechra, that's what we're going with!

That does mean the current sorceries need refluffed a bit, and several of the sorceries need replaced. We'll take care of most of the legwork on that, but suggestions are welcome as always.

We were also talking about making Form of the Destroyer a merit (a very expensive one), since it's basically the draconic version of "Going Loud," but making it an innate ability would be essentially ripping off DtD. Thoughts?

Edit: Some more thoughts:

I'm in favor of making the Spurned more interesting and powerful, and making the Knights a Spurned group. I don't know much about the new Wolf-Blooded so that'll be up to Soldier and you all how that gets implemented.

"Monuments" were brought up as something the Hive (bzz) gets, but honestly, making big monuments to their own greatness sounds a lot like something a dragon would do. I'd be interested in a second class of magic items for dragons that are called Monuments. I'm not sure what they'd do, but the "leave a lasting legacy" theme is right there with it. Edit2: Heck, finding ancient Monuments from the Empire could be fun plot, and might be a good goal for many dragons. Perhaps you can only by Monument with Draconic experience, to represent the sort of effort necessary to go into it.

In a similar vein, I'd be interested in discussing an idea I had a while back that I'm not sure I've brought up: Testaments. As in, "Last Will & Testament." It'd be a dragon's Will that lives on after the dragon's death, and is inherited by other dragons and can be used by them. Soldier and I have discussed several ideas for mechanics, but we don't have anything concrete. Still, I like the idea a lot.

[Almarck]

Perhaps as a counter proposal/comprimise to the Monuments thing: Both Hives and Dragons strive to create monuments, but Hives go out of their way to destroy or corrupt Monuments of other Hives and Dragons.

The reason I chose to name them Monuments is because it was a good way to bring up the right conotations and scale for what Hives strive to accomplish. But I will admit that dragons work just as well for making or finding their own, as they represent a permanent idea of legacy. Perhaps we can go further and say even the Garuda want them as well? In short, maybe the idea of monuments is not a faction specific concept or conceit, but rather a generally important "item" that many factions and creatures in DtI strive to control and create, much like how werewolves and all manner of spirits and human magicians strive to control Loci?

I'm not sure of what Monuments should really mechanically do that makes them so desired, but I am thinking that some Sorcery probably interacts with them. I definately think "Free" willpower is probably not ideal as well. Perhaps... allowing you to influence the area it is in, such as say Hives have monuments that cast assimilation on bystanders while dragons use them to project their glory?



As for Testaments, I am confused over how they would be mechanically implemented, but I had an initial idea. I'm thinking that alot of Heirlooms, Monuments, and so on probably have a special restriction over who may or may not use them, as defined by their owners and rites of inheriance. The point of a Testament then is to act a trigger to divvy up and transfer full control of a magical item or building (Monuments can get pretty big) to another Heir.

Sadly, that seems like something that really does not work as a playable piece that players buy with exp.

As another suggestion, perhaps we should really define what the purpose of Testaments should be in a game about the theme of Inheritance. Especially if they are going to be magical binding contracts.




"Going Loud" costs exp to use since it destroys a Cover completely and puts you at serious risk of getitng destroyed since it means combat angels will be alerted to your position and will track you down if you do not quickly assume a new Cover. It is also template inherent and triggered as an instant action. You should not fear about it encroaching on Demon though, the point of it is basically the emergency mode Demons activate when their backs against the wall and their espionage spy tactics no longer work and its time to drawout the military grade hardware.

I do however feel that Form of the Destroyer is not worth it as is. You're forcing yourself into dragon form for a whole month (and creating a Slayer maybe more) for slight mechanical increases across the board. It actually does not strike me as worth it because while it means the dragon is all around more powerful, there's no real "Wow Factor" that comes into play because all of the stat increases are so slight that make the drawbacks seem worth it.

Here's what I am thinking and it's pretty drastic:
Everything about Form of the Destroyer's drawbacks and bonuses as it is right now stick, but now:
-Willpower costs do not apply while in form of the Destroyer. You are still limited by your Kau's expenditures per turn, but you simply do not pay Willpower costs for anything.
-Form of the Destroyer becomes template inherent, meaning all dragons get access to it by default.

Reasoning:
Werewolf Wasu-Im Death Rage and Demon Going Loud, in my opinion both give very big boons for drawbacks that are nowhere near as severe in my opinion. Sure Death Rage and Going Loud have the drawbacks of losing all control except for the urge to murder everything and Going Loud means that all Angels nearby attack you, but those states can atleast be done in over with quick. Not to mention, both of them basically give the player unlimited resources to spam their abilities.

I also feel there needs to be more... inherent things with the Dragon template, things that are outside of the specialization and division of Legacies. Form of the Destroyer as an "all-round" template inherent ability would suit that, and would basically put it on par with other supernatural's "supermodes". Buying it as a merit and having the same drawbacks is not worth it.


Okay, so, how Wolf Blooded work is really simple. For a cost of 2 merits on Character Creation, an ordinary mortal character can become a Wolf-Blooded.

This affords the Wolf-Blooded the following benefits:
-Wolf Blooded may learn Pack Rites. Rites in Werewolf are divided up into 2 categories, Wolf rites which only werewolves may know and Pack Rites which both werewolves and wolfblooded they know. Rites in second edition are basically equivalent to merits and Wolfblooded may exchange merit dots for Rites. The power of Rites is about the same, but there is a slight different in purpose of Pack and Wolf rites. Pack rites tend to be supportive, while Wolf rites deal with the inherent nature of being a werewolf.
-Tells. Essentially, minor supernatural powers that are each about equivalent to something a starting werewolf would get. However, Wolf-blooded typically only get one (barring say, GM intervention) Tell and get that only boon. Typical Tells include the ability to turn into a wolf at will, claws and fangs, healing equivalent to a werewolf. They just do not get everything else.
-Immunity to Lunacy and do not suffer breakpoint points for using some Rites (One of them by the way allows you to turn the entire pack humans and wolf blooded included into wolves).

For the Spurned to be equivalent:
-We would need to drop the cost of the Spurned Merit to 2 dots or just say that Spurned characters start with only 5 merit dots instead of 7.
-Distingiush Sorceries between those that Dragons and Spurned may learn, those that only Dragons may learn, and those that only Spurned may learn.
-Create a Tells equivalent. I'm thinking having tied to Legacies in some manner, but I am not sure how to make them not outright Legacy abiltiies.





Asside from that though, I do not have any idea on how to adjust the Knights.

[Amechra]

Correction on Wolf-Blooded: becoming one at character creation is free, and you get the 10 dots of Merits that is now usual for templates. The merit is specifically for becoming Wolf-Blooded in the middle of a game, or if a Wolfblooded character wants a second Tell.

[Xallace]

I very much like the idea that monuments are something basically all denizens of DtI are after. I don't have much on that yet, but here's what I've written on the subject, if you all would be so kind as to take a look:

"Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
- Ozymandias

Far-flung through time and destiny though it was, the Empire was not some ephemeral dream conjured by dragons. It is not a tale told to make Heirs feel as though they are part of something greater. It was, in all ways that a thing can be. Evidence of its existence remains to this very day, pillars of embodied draconic will that burn bright with glory in spite of Fate's designs. These evidences, dragons call Monuments. They are the Once & Future Glory, the empire that was and will be.
A Monument is a physical structure, often a building or a statue, that embodies the eternity for which a dragon strives. It is a mark on the world in stone and metal and wood, a grand signature written into time and space. For many dragons, building new monuments is a goal in itself, as well as a stepping stone to the return of the Empire proper.
Dragons can both find and create monuments. Ancient monuments, those from dragons centuries past or even from the Empire itself, can be claimed by the dragons who find them and put to use. These monuments are so often troublesome to get one's claws on, as they are more often claimed by archaeological researchers or government agencies as "symbols of cultural heritage" before the rightful Heirs can get there first. For those monuments a dragon can claim, however, they prove invaluable in the information and power that they bring. More than a few violent altercations have begun with a race for a monument.
New monuments are a difficult endeavor, but worthwhile for those dragons willing to put in the effort. New monuments can be designed to a dragon's specifications, and include only such information, influence, and power as a dragon enjoys. Dragons must be wise in choosing what aspects go into a monument, however, as they form a legacy that lasts for as long as the monument stands – and no Heir wants their lasting mark to be a foolish one.
Monuments can come in nearly any size and shape, but they are universally grand, large, and recognizable. They can be temples, palaces, obelisks, monolithic stones, or even such things as fountains or so-called "eternal flames," that are meant to burn forever more. They are stationary, built into a space that makes it a place of power. Many monuments are known to the general populace, and recognized as significant things. Of course, very know them as being of draconic origin – whether the Washington Monument was built Free Masons or Dragons or patriotic Americans is of no concern, and most dragons recognize that as a good thing. Regretable, yes, that the Empire should be hidden for now, but it's better than Slayers left-and-right, isn't it?

Monuments provide little direct benefits for dragons, but that is not their purpose. Monuments do not empower dragons; they glorify them.

Being able to claim a monument grants a dragon an extra touchstone, which grants the usual +1 to Serenity degeneration rolls. The bonus rises to +2 if the monument is one of the dragon's own creation. Monuments reinforce the draconic identity, and even an ancient one still provokes a sense of pride in an Heir.

Of considerable more importance, a monument contains two things: information and presence. To unpack that, all monuments contain information that can be accessed by any Heir that touches the monument. The Heir must spend a point of Willpower to access the information, which often takes the form of sensory memories. The Heir immediately experiences these memories as though they were there. An Heir who creates a new monument decides what memories are to be instilled in the monument, and what senses are to be contained there-in. Up to one scene per dot of Kauchaomai can be contained within a monument.

Monuments should also contain some considerable ability to influence the place and people around them, although I am not quite sure what sort of mechanics would go into that yet. They would, essentially, impart the creating dragon's will onto both the physical area and the people existing there-in, such that it would change things culturally.

The problem I'm seeing so far is that they need some "boom," some big hook. Any thoughts one what that might be? And thoughts on what there is so far?

[Sgt. Cookie]

Let me preface this by saying two things: First, this is awesome. Keep up the good work. Second, nWoD is an unfamiliar system to me and this fansplat is probably what's going to get me my first game. Possibly.

Anyway. I found a gallery on Imgur (link) (http://imgur.com/gallery/V346o) about a tiny dragon that hoards pennies and lives under a sofa-chair. Personally, I felt this was too fitting and too adorable to pass up, so, here it is:

(General Merit)
Hoardling (●●)(?)

For some reason or another, you've gained the friendship and trust of a Hoardling, a small creature, around the size of a large rat, that resembles a Drake. In times past, Hoardlings would live in and around Blacksmiths, their Draconic instincts telling them to hoard bits of metal. A Hoardling in modern times does much the same, except instead of metal scraps, they hoard coins for the most part.

Unlike ordinary dragons which can be... unwilling, to give up parts of their hoard, a friendly Hoardling acts a little like a child, presenting various coins to their (Friend? Owner? Trusted? Guardian?) seeming to draw them from many different places (Leading many to theorise that a Hoardling is not after the bits of metal, but rather companionship. Though more the more cynical would say "protection"). If a Hoardling's (X) owns a backpack, handbag, etc, they will often prefer to keep their hoards there, where the Hoardling's (X) has "easy" access to them. In game terms, this basically means you will always have correct change for whatever you want to do (This doesn't mean you have infinite money, of course, just that you can assume you have a whole bunch of coins. It is suggested that a Hoardling stores around $10-50 worth of change in your holdall, depending on size, of course.). Assuming of course, you have access to your things. If you don't have access to your belongings, then you can let your Hoardling loose. It will return in about an hour with around $4-5 in assorted coinage.

As mentioned before, Hoardlings don't always have coins in their hoard. Once per week, you can make a Chance roll to see if your Hoardling has found something special (Though always small-ish. As a rule of thumb, if it can't sit nicely on top of a tin can or can't be carried like a dog carrying a stick, it's too large for the Hoardling to care about). One success means that your Hoardling has found something interesting, but not necessarily valuable. Perhaps a particularly shiny bottlecap, a good fountain pen or a pin-badge. Three successes indicate something valuable, but not extremely so. A plain gold earring, some silver cuff-links or an old coin. Five successes or more indicate that your Hoardling has found something pretty worth while. A gold diamond ring, a necklace studded with rubies and emeralds or even something just plain lucky, like a spare key to the warehouse you're trying to infiltrate.

Caring for a Hoardling is, fortunately, no more costly than any other pet. Though technically omnivores, Hoardlings have a particular fondness for fish-based cat food. They'll clean themselves given a pool of water and lacking fur or hair, they can't get lice or fleas and are remarkably resilient to illness. They can be injured, though and most human vets don't know how to deal with Hoardlings, for obvious reasons. The Nagaraja dynasty has the largest number of vets trained for dealing with Hoardlings, but as Dragons can come from all walks of life, pretty much any Dynasty will have more than a few vets that will see Hoardlings.

Last couple of notes, Hoardlings are not "impressive" enough to cause Enkindling, though whipping one out in public is likely to draw attention. As mentioned before, Hoardlings are a lot like children and if their (X) just so happens to be a proper Dragon, a Hoardling will, over time, develop traits and abilities that appear to be "mini"-legacies, though they will only ever develop abilities similar to General Legacies.

[Almarck]

Welcome to the thread and to the World of Darkness,Cookie. I hope you enjoy your stay.

If you wish to learn more anyone in this thread or in the general WoD thread. I will warn there's multiple editions in the same thread which may end up confusing you if you are not aware. Dragon the Inheritance uses New WoD second


See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402071-General-WoD-Discussion-4-Rage-Against-the-God-Machine)




So I've been thinking maybe for monuments to really be important we first need to establish what kinds of Monuments each faction would gravity towards.

I'm thinking that the key thing about each monument is that they represent a moment or idea and it is this recognition that causes power to work in what way.

"This statue represents conquest" and thus it aids in military tasks.
"This place glorifies knowledge" and thus it promotes better learning.

The most basic power for a moment thus is the ability to influence onlookers into following what the monument represents specifically in a manner that the owner would benefit from.

HIGH TIER monuments should do that .. and have really impressive powers.

The Statue of great general may suddenly become animate and create a powerful retainer suited for all manner of conquest and warfare. Maybe he even comes with his own army made out of terracotta.
While the Library Monument might actively start pulling apart all of the books in its shelves to answer the very important questions it's owner speaks to it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Stop me if I sound like I'm rambling, I've had a few beers, but I can totally see a Zalciai Monument being a massive Casino that, in Zalciai altruistic fashion, donates the proceeds to local charities.

I'm thinking that, they're the LUCK Dynasty, right? So, that's what their monument represents. Luck. A few hands at the blackjack table, a couple of spins on the roulette wheel. Regardless of whether or not you win or lose, you've tried your luck and that's all it takes for the monument to give you a little more. Imagine it, the business man sat next to you at the blackjack table is actually a Zalciai Amphitere playing a few hands so that his meeting with some investors goes favourably.

[Xallace]

I definitely agree that all monuments should represent and glorify one particular thing, I guess I did not state that explicitly in what I had written. What I'm getting from these ideas is that monuments have some sort of input->output method, wherein each monument absorbs a particular thing (like luck, patriotism, or fighting spirit) and converts it into something the dragon can work with (like luck, knowledge, or a standing army). The input and output are related through the theme of whatever the monument represents or glorifies.

And dynastic monuments are probably much more likely than individual monuments, since more dragons working together can easily pool resources. These monuments usual center around themes dear to the dynasties' philosophies, such as the philanthropic casino of the Zalciai, or the library of the Nagaraja, or the terracotta general of the Xiuhcoatl.

The presence of the monument also changes the space around it in various ways, although this takes time. It influences the people and culture around it to better reflect the ideals of the monument, and thus create a better source of the input the monument needs to function.

[Almarck]

So I realize something. Monuments might be something we have to assemble manually. By this I mean we may need to make something like over a dozen of them rather than build a universal construction system.


Mostly this comes down to the fact that the effects of moments are difficult to.... scale. We can,create universal rules for their up keep or running but we cannot define how powerful each aspect should be.

[Xallace]

Yeah, I figured they'd be a lot like fetishes or tokens, in that the exact abilities are usually best left to the ST to handle, with guidelines from the writers on general power level and construction. The more powerful monuments are looking to be plot-level magics, anyway.

[Xallace]

I also just wanted to touch on a few things I hadn't commented on yet:


Sgt., that Hoardling is adorable and when Soldier gets back from his con we'll talk about possible inclusion, with a few tweaks.
One of the reasons there are so few inherent features to the template is that we haven't come up with much that is universal to all dragon types. The passive features we would have had just ended up being legacies. If there are any ideas for abilities that all dragons should possess, feel free to suggest. As it stands, I think it's only Resonance and Hoarding.
As far as the Form of the Destroyer is concerned (and I think we'll need a new name if we integrate it into the core template), I also feel like the drawbacks are far too steep for what it gives you. I understand that it is supposed to be a serious last option, but it could still be balanced with both higher benefits and smaller drawbacks.
I think we can keep sorcery's legacy-style mechanics, although we really need to write up a more detailed section of fluff for that bit. Keeping the "core dots" component makes it easier to have sorcery as a prerequisite for other character options, and the dots already provide a bonus to sorcery rolls.

[Sgt. Cookie]

What sort of tweaks were you thinking about Xallace? Just out of curiosity.

Edit: I was talking with a friend who knows nWoD a hell of a lot better than I do and suggested that the roll to see if a Hoardling found something of value be changed from a chance die to a Kauchaomai + Animal Ken roll. I kinda agree that's a LOT better. Your thoughts?

[Xallace]

I'm thinking specifically of the fact that a "Chance Roll" in WoD terminology is basically dooming them to failure. I'd probably grant +5 dice or so to Hoardlings for that particular roll. Averages 1 success consistently.

Might change tiny bits of fluff too, to explain why the world is unaware of tiny dragons that steal their pocket change. That's about it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Actually edited my prior post about that.

Stat-wise, do you think it might be appropriate to give Hoardlings a dot of Kauchaomai?

As for actual stats, I don't feel confident enough with the system to give them "proper" stats, but I do feel they should be smarter than average animals, two dots of intelligence, at least. What do you think?

[Almarck]

I'm thinking Hordlings might be cousins to dragons. Maybe in the same way monkeys are to modern humans.


Also, on the Spurned, I am thinking the following options should be available as "Tells".
-May assume draconic form and has some legacy powers, but has access to
them while in dragon form.
-No dragon form, but access to the attribute boost of some legacies
-No dragon form, but access to the "trait" boost of some legacies
-May make Heirlooms
-May make Monuments.
-May cause Resonance
-Access to parts of a "general" legacy.
-Misc abilities based on each legacy

Too bad dragon form does not have inherent attribute boosts. I imagine some Spurned can assume a dragon form, but are so much weaker for it than true dragons, like, lesser dragons or draconic creatures if you will..


As for, let's call it Tyranos maybe, I'm thinking we'll want to jack up the "condition's" abilities and cut back some drawbacks. I'd be for removing the "Increase all General Legacies" by 1 dot and replacing it with "free" Willpower expenses and working our way up from there.


Also, I revise my statement that Werewolves and Dragons are an equal match. Now that I know things a little better and with some of the nerfs onto Drakonos... I can reasonably say the dragon is not going to win against an equally combat speced werewolf. Mostly, this is because the werewolf can deal aggravated to the dragon, but the dragon can't reliably cause lasting injuries at all.

I'm thinking that needs to be corrected somewhat, it should atleast be fair: I'm thinking Drakonos has some sort of other "bonus" that makes it more effective in combat, maybe something about using its size to crush the opponent

[One Tin Soldier]

Ok, I'm at least done the con now, though I still have some decompressing left to do. I've done something of a skim over the recent posts, to give you my impressions. More thorough reading will have to come later.

1) Welcome to the thread, Sgt Cookie! I follow that artist on Tumblr, so I have indeed seen that little comic before. If we can make it fit, I am down with including mini-dragon companions. And possibly some mentions of other non-hostile dragon related fauna as well. No idea right now what those would be, exactly, but it can be fun.

2) I like the idea of large-scale Monuments quite a bit more than individual monuments. I can see plots revolving around stuff like, say, a local Monument that's a joint effort between the Zmaj and Xiuhcoatl. Set pieces are important for establishing a group's identity, and these provide an easy way to do that.

3) I'm not terribly concerned about making Drakonos>Garou. A werewolf's Killing Form has strengths and weaknesses appropriate to it's own gameline, and trying to balance against it specifically is silly.

[Amechra]

Oh hi dere Sargent, welcome to our little thread.

Formalities out of the way:


Tyranos
I am perfect



Once, Dragons were kings and queens of this world; once, they roared atop hoards of gold and legend. Then Zirnitra's spell traded their majesty for survival.
But sometimes, a Dragon must cast aside the rags of their current form, and wear the crowns Fate has denied them.

Mechanics: By spending one Willpower dot instead of one Willpower when you enter Drakonos, you may enter Tyranos instead, a primordial form representing what they could have been, had the wheels of Fate not turned. On top of the normal effects of Drakonos, being in Tyranos gives the following benefits and drawbacks:

Entering Tyranos refills your Willpower pool to full.
In Tyranos, your Kauchaomai is considered to be two dots higher than it normally is, to a maximum of ten.
You gain a point of Willpower at the beginning of each turn; if you don't spend any Willpower on your turn, you lose one point at the end of it. Power was meant to be used, after all.
You gain eight additional dots to divide amongst the General Legacies and your Dynastic Legacy; this improves your Unique Legacy by two dots.
The maximum number of dots you may have in a Legacy while in Tyranos increases to eight.
Returning to Anthropos is reduced to a Chance Die regardless of your Kauchaomai; you may not spend Willpower to improve your dice pool when reverting.
You automatically fail all Enkindling rolls for the remainder of the Scene.



Terrifying? Terrifying. To give an example:

Starting Dragon:
Bones of the Mountain ••, Hide of Iron ••, Immortality of Lerna •, Kauchaomai •

Bonuses in Drakonos
+2 Strength, +2 Stamina, +1 Size, Regeneration for one turn/Willpower.
+2L Brawl attacks, 2/0 Armor.

In Tyranos
Bones of the Mountain ••••••, Hide of Iron ••••••, Immortality of Lerna •••, Kauchaomai •••

Bonuses in Tyranos
+6 Strength, +6 Stamina, +3 Size, Regeneration for three turn/Willpower.
+6L Brawl attacks, 6/0 Armor.

Of course, since you're sweating Slayers, it's a poor idea to be "perfect" like this all the time.

[Eris]

First of all, hi. I'm an irl friend of tinsoldier and xallace, but new to this forum.

Anyway, I've been bothered by the progression of Heads of Wise counsel for a while now. I had an idea just a bit ago kinda based on the eyes of eternity. The idea is you pick a mental skill for each head, and you can spend a willpower to get rote action (or maybe advanced action). This gives the fluff that each head provides counsel on specific bits of knowledge. Also since you get the medusa treatment for activating the legacy in anthropos, I like the idea of you little snakes telling you how to suture a wound to you, helping you dig through a stack of books, or whispering arcane secrets.

Other ideas for Heads: make the defense versus multiple opponents an auxiliary and/or making the auxiliary that lets you lower the time interval on extended action part of the base legacy dots.
Also, an auxiliary that lets you know when your mind/memories are being tampered with.

Secondly, part of me feels that hoardlings are a little too... Whimsical I guess? If given the proper fluff, I could see them acting kinda like mage familiars or changeling's hedge beasts. I agree that they are pretty cute, but having an adorable little dragon that hoards little things I fell may be hard to wrap in the theme of the game. Perhaps just make them more like animal familiars, as a raven or squirrel already kinda hoard things.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I understand what you mean, Eris, but there's no real way to make a mini-dragon that hoards small things not seem a little whimsical.

Perhaps wild Hoardlings are violent and terratorial. Tracking other animals for food, rats, squirrels, hedgehogs, cats, small dogs, whatever falls to a Hoardling's fangs. They then drag them off to their lairs, which could be under a house or in the basement of a building.

Wild Hoardlings could also be seen as something of a pest, grabbing every small thing they can. How many times have YOU put something down, only for it to disappear? Perhaps you have terrible memory or perhaps it's the work of a tiny dragon that killed your neighbor's cat?

"Pet" Hoardlings, on the other hand, are more likely to have beens raised from birth to curb thier violent tendancies and make their nests in a more "open" space. No effort is made to stop their Hoarding, of course, because it would not only be futile, but also cruel. They ARE Dragons, after all. Even if they are only distantly related to Heirs.

[Amechra]

First of all, hi. I'm an irl friend of tinsoldier and xallace, but new to this forum.

Anyway, I've been bothered by the progression of Heads of Wise counsel for a while now. I had an idea just a bit ago kinda based on the eyes of eternity. The idea is you pick a mental skill for each head, and you can spend a willpower to get rote action (or maybe advanced action). This gives the fluff that each head provides counsel on specific bits of knowledge. Also since you get the medusa treatment for activating the legacy in anthropos, I like the idea of you little snakes telling you how to suture a wound to you, helping you dig through a stack of books, or whispering arcane secrets.

Other ideas for Heads: make the defense versus multiple opponents an auxiliary and/or making the auxiliary that lets you lower the time interval on extended action part of the base legacy dots.
Also, an auxiliary that lets you know when your mind/memories are being tampered with.

Secondly, part of me feels that hoardlings are a little too... Whimsical I guess? If given the proper fluff, I could see them acting kinda like mage familiars or changeling's hedge beasts. I agree that they are pretty cute, but having an adorable little dragon that hoards little things I fell may be hard to wrap in the theme of the game. Perhaps just make them more like animal familiars, as a raven or squirrel already kinda hoard things.

Welcome!

I like that idea; part of me thinks it might be better to do something like, I dunno, each head gives you the benefits of the Hobbyist Clique merit (8-again and two additional rolls on Extended Actions, restricted to a particular skill). But hey, whatever works works.

[Almarck]

Welcome to the thread Eris.

Hope ou eenjoy your stay. Anyways, yeah I think a while back I suggested cutting down extended action intervalswould be a good thing,but I think it was dropped for some reason. Multiple heads is quite clearly the most complicated legacy we have to work with.

As fo Hordelings, I'm sure that they'll be fine. It's not like every dragon needs to be able to eat a man anyways. Tiny lizard creatures would be fine I imagine.

Xal, should I write up some sample Monuments or do you have that covered?




Also, I just realized something. We may need to rework the fluff about dragons not gaining new senses despite lacking them their whole lives or whatever. Mostly because of Eyes of Eternity's upgrading linked entirely to what senses he has available. For simplicity and to avoid having to create special rules for players that lack these senses,we just say the senses are restored (or gained) to full upon changing into dragons? Also because as far as I am aware, the fluff for dragons that lost or never had senses does not seem to have mechanical presentaton as far as I know.

Additionally, doesn't it kind of go aganst "idealized, perfect lifeform" to lack senses due to injuries or birth defects from before you "found yourself"?

[Eris]

The 8-again thing is a good idea. After thinking it over, having to spend a willpower to get rote or advanced action isn't great since it loses the +3 dice. On the other hand, 8-again gives more successes, but also doesn't do anything to mitigate a failure; doesn't help when you don't roll an 8 or higher. Advanced or rote both greatly reduce the chance of failure, and the ability to roll twice kinda gives the feeling of getting counsel from another head. But they are also a little too strong to have always on. So I think a good compromise is when you spend a willpower, you get the extra effect on top of the +3. Thoughts?

[One Tin Soldier]

First of all, hi. I'm an irl friend of tinsoldier and xallace, but new to this forum.

Anyway, I've been bothered by the progression of Heads of Wise counsel for a while now. I had an idea just a bit ago kinda based on the eyes of eternity. The idea is you pick a mental skill for each head, and you can spend a willpower to get rote action (or maybe advanced action). This gives the fluff that each head provides counsel on specific bits of knowledge. Also since you get the medusa treatment for activating the legacy in anthropos, I like the idea of you little snakes telling you how to suture a wound to you, helping you dig through a stack of books, or whispering arcane secrets.

Other ideas for Heads: make the defense versus multiple opponents an auxiliary and/or making the auxiliary that lets you lower the time interval on extended action part of the base legacy dots.
Also, an auxiliary that lets you know when your mind/memories are being tampered with.

Secondly, part of me feels that hoardlings are a little too... Whimsical I guess? If given the proper fluff, I could see them acting kinda like mage familiars or changeling's hedge beasts. I agree that they are pretty cute, but having an adorable little dragon that hoards little things I fell may be hard to wrap in the theme of the game. Perhaps just make them more like animal familiars, as a raven or squirrel already kinda hoard things.

The Heads of Wise Counsel thing is worth considering, certainly. It sound like it would be more unified than what we have right now.

I do agree with what you said about the Hoardlings feeling a little too whimsical. Like, we at least have to keep up some kind of gothic horror appearance while writing a WoD game.

And, semi-related, Iguanamouth (the artist who drew the tiny dragon that started this discussion) has a series of "unusual dragon hoards" art pieces that we inspired us a bit for Drake hoards. You can look at the whole series here. (http://lizardshuffle.tumblr.com/tagged/hoards) Warning: some of the pieces are NSFW.


Now, as for Monuments. Xallace and I talked about the subject a bit, and here's the thoughts we had.

Monuments are usually created by groups of dragons, rather than individuals. Monuments have Tiers, indicating the number of dragons that contributed to it. Higher Tier means more power, though not necessarily bigger. (Any rich businessman can build a casino, but it takes a whole group of dragons to make it mystically powerful.
Monuments should be designed, mechanically, kind of like a Krewe, Pack Totem, Agency, etc. They are pretty much a direct reflection of the group that built them, so exactly what they do is highly variable and up to the ST.
Monuments take on bits of personality from the dragons that contribute to them. The bits in common between the dragons that contribute to them coalesce into a sort of identity of its own. It's not a true thinking being - usually - but a Monument's identity has a big sway on what it does.
One possibility for building a Monument is that its personality is expanded into an actual psychic entity.
Monuments influence their environments according to their personalities. People that fit the ideals of the monument are attracted to the area, while people who are antithetical to those ideals are slowly pushed away. This is a subtle effect, but a potent one, that allows dragons to shape their little Empires how they wish.
Aside from the main plot-level benefits of a Monument, they have universal secondary effects as well. Any dragon in control of a Monument may treat it as a third Touchstone, granting them a bonus to Dissonance rolls as long as they're in the Monument's area of effect. Monuments are also capable of storing the memories of dragons who contributed to them, preserving them for as long as they exist. They aren't perfect - memories stored this way can be altered or even faked entirely - but they are very useful nonetheless. The fragments of memories preserved in ancient monuments are the strongest proof that dragons have that their ancient Empire did actually exist.
Monuments can be altered, depending on who has control of them. A group of dragons that wrests control of a Monument from another group can change its personality to fit their own, with some effort. It's usually not a complete change, but rather a corruption or mutation of what it was before. For an example, let's say the Zaltys luck-granting casino monument that was brought up before is taken over by the Yinglong. Now, the process is more or less the same, but the benefits usually go less towards charities and business ventures, but more towards money laundering and contract-making. Or, for another example, let's say that a clutch of Xiuhcoatl had a fighting dojo monument that was taken over by Nagaraja. It becomes less focused on making the participants better fighters, and more focused on teaching and preserving hidden fighting techniques.
Creatures other than dragons can take control of monuments as well, with different effects. A Hive that gains control of a monument gains influence over the people around it. They aren't assimilated into the Hive outright, but they do begin to conform to the Hive's bizarre identity, and they are more susceptible to "mob mentality" than usual. When the Garuda take control of a Monument, the weather and environment goes haywire in the area. Thunderbirds bring frequent storms, floods, and lightning that spontaneously sparks from power lines. Sunbirds bring punishing heat waves, droughts, and burning-hot rocks emerging from the earth. Tengu bring fog and gloom, days that seem almost as dark as night, and roving zones of blackness that nothing can fully illuminate.


EDIT:

Also, I just realized something. We may need to rework the fluff about dragons not gaining new senses despite lacking them their whole lives or whatever. Mostly because of Eyes of Eternity's upgrading linked entirely to what senses he has available. For simplicity and to avoid having to create special rules for players that lack these senses,we just say the senses are restored (or gained) to full upon changing into dragons? Also because as far as I am aware, the fluff for dragons that lost or never had senses does not seem to have mechanical presentaton as far as I know.

Additionally, doesn't it kind of go aganst "idealized, perfect lifeform" to lack senses due to injuries or birth defects from before you "found yourself"?

No, because a dragon isn't being an "idealized, perfect lifeform." It's being an idealized version of your identity. That's an important difference, because there are absolutely people who regard their disabilities as an important part of their identity. They might not enjoy it, exactly, but it is a part of who they are, and that is the most important factor for a dragon.
EDIT 2: See Xallace's comment below.


You are right, however, that there should be Eyes of Eternity options for dragons that lack senses. A blind dragon enhancing their sight doesn't make a whole lot of sense, after all, and they should still get something for their dots.

So what should that entail? Including more than 5 senses as core options? Options to further enhance a sense rather than enhancing another one? Something else?

[Xallace]

The 8-again thing is a good idea. After thinking it over, having to spend a willpower to get rote or advanced action isn't great since it loses the +3 dice. On the other hand, 8-again gives more successes, but also doesn't do anything to mitigate a failure; doesn't help when you don't roll an 8 or higher. Advanced or rote both greatly reduce the chance of failure, and the ability to roll twice kinda gives the feeling of getting counsel from another head. But they are also a little too strong to have always on. So I think a good compromise is when you spend a willpower, you get the extra effect on top of the +3. Thoughts?

I'm confused, do you get 8-agains or Rote/Advanced action on top of the +3? Or both?



As fo Hordelings, I'm sure that they'll be fine. It's not like every dragon needs to be able to eat a man anyways. Tiny lizard creatures would be fine I imagine.

There's part of me that just wants them, darn it all. But really it comes down whether or not they'll fit in the fluff. Some time will be taken to work that out, I think we can table the conversation for a little bit while we hash out Monuments here, since they're shaping up to be pretty big.


Xal, should I write up some sample Monuments or do you have that covered?

Let's wait on that until we get a better idea of the mechanics behind them. Soldier and I came up with a lot (as you can see above) but it's gotta get nailed down more.





Also, I just realized something. We may need to rework the fluff about dragons not gaining new senses despite lacking them their whole lives or whatever. Mostly because of Eyes of Eternity's upgrading linked entirely to what senses he has available. For simplicity and to avoid having to create special rules for players that lack these senses,we just say the senses are restored (or gained) to full upon changing into dragons? Also because as far as I am aware, the fluff for dragons that lost or never had senses does not seem to have mechanical presentaton as far as I know.

Additionally, doesn't it kind of go aganst "idealized, perfect lifeform" to lack senses due to injuries or birth defects from before you "found yourself"?

I guess we've never really talked about what happens in the Drakonos. I've been under the assumption that no matter the damage done to your Anthropos, your Drakonos has all its functioning parts unless - like the culturally Deaf character exampled in the doc - that disability is a part of your core identity. So someone who lost their hearing and is deaf (little "d") would gain it partially back in Anthropos and entirely back in Drakonos, while someone is Deaf (big "D") would gain it back in neither (which can just be mechanically modeled by a persistent condition).

Edit: As far as EoE goes, my guess is that it might be worthwhile to look into a redesign of the legacy. I'm not particularly excited by the core ability, anyway.

[Eris]

For the head of counsel, I'm between the spend willpower and get +3 and rote action, or the always on 8-again. I prefer the rote action one because it fits the fluff better, but doing the 8-again instead is less of a headache and is ultimately simpler.

[Almarck]

That's fine. Later when I have the chance to digest I'll comment on the new monument stuffs.



As for the conditions, I was wondering if it really made sense to still keep it since it clashed directly with the improved senses of Eyes of Eternity. How does it work say when a naturally blind dragon chooses to take it Gets all 5 dots into it or say take aura sight. How does that work? Is the dragon unable to benefit from a missing sense?

Actually here's a better question can a,dragon heal their natural blindness or other birth defects through radical self reinvention? Because if that's the case then I can see dragons doing that to remove weaknesses.

[Xallace]

What if we change it to something like:

For each dot of Eyes of Eternity, the Drakonos gains one dot of Wits. Additionally, all of the dragon's senses heighten such a degree that the dragon becomes supernaturally aware of their surroundings. The Drakonos senses are enhanced to the point that the dragon can perceive objects in space around them without actually having to pinpoint them with a particular sense. This "blind sight" can pinpoint people or objects, and even tell tactile or visual details without directly seeing or touching. The range on this sense is three yards per dot of Eyes of Eternity. The dragon can only sense the surface of objects, and therefore these senses can be blocked by walls or containers.

The dragon's Drakonos form is also immune to any Tilt or Condition that would impede that dragon's perceptive capabilities, if they derive from the physical loss of a dragon's senses - not because sight returns to a blind dragon or hearing to deaf one, but because the other senses heighten to the point that the lost sense is irrelevant. Only a dragon who is completely without senses (including tactile) can be effectively "blinded." Inclement weather, thick smoke, and other such environmental effects can still instill penalties.

The dragon can activate the Wits bonus separately from the rest of this effect, in which case the Anthropos does not gain any obvious draconic qualities. So long as the Wits bonus is activate, for the rest of the scene the dragon may reflexively activate the remaining effects at no further cost.

[Amechra]

I actually had an idea for Eyes of Eternity based around how sensory powers work in M&M, of all places; the core of the Legacy is a set of generic enhancements that you pick a sense to apply to, with the Auxiliaries being a set of more "supernatural" extras you can slap on.

It never did crystallize, though.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I've been thinking a little about monuments and a pretty simple effect could be that low (tier?) monuments could give a couple of Extra Successes to a particular roll. A mid tier monument could give more of them and the 9-Again property on a somewhat similar rolls. And last of all, a high tier monument could give a whole bunch of extra successes and 8-again on a whole bunch of different rolls.

For example, let's say that Amphitere Businessman played a few rounds and the Casino monument was low-tier. Won some, lost some but did a little better than simply breaking even. When he later presents his plan to his investors, the AB gets one or two Extra Successes on his Oratory check to convince them this is a really good idea.

If it was a mid-tier monument, not only would AB get 9-again and extra successes on Oratory, he also gains them on another related skill. Fast Talk or Cutting a Deal would be appropriate in this case.

A high-tier monument would give AB a shed-load of Extra Successes, 8-Again on Oratory AND the benefit would apply to all Persuasion checks.

Something similar could be done for that Xiuhcoatl Fighting Dojo. A low-tier monument could give the bonus to a particular combat manoeuvre in a particular fighting style. A mid-tier could give the bonuses to all uses of the fighting style while a high-tier one gives the bonus to all uses of Brawl.

Of course, this is all up to change. It just seemed like an easy way to give them an in-game effect.



As a side note (this is the last time I'll talk about this until Monuments are done), mention was made about Hoardlings not being "Gothic Horror"-y enough. Right now I'm currently working on a story to rectify that.

It's about a man getting eaten alive by a pack of wild Hoardlings. Flesh ripped away, bones fractured to get at the marrow and a squabble over his loose change. All culminating in someone wondering what that awful smell coming from under their house is.

[One Tin Soldier]

I've been thinking a little about monuments and a pretty simple effect could be that low (tier?) monuments could give a couple of Extra Successes to a particular roll. A mid tier monument could give more of them and the 9-Again property on a somewhat similar rolls. And last of all, a high tier monument could give a whole bunch of extra successes and 8-again on a whole bunch of different rolls.

For example, let's say that Amphitere Businessman played a few rounds and the Casino monument was low-tier. Won some, lost some but did a little better than simply breaking even. When he later presents his plan to his investors, the AB gets one or two Extra Successes on his Oratory check to convince them this is a really good idea.

If it was a mid-tier monument, not only would AB get 9-again and extra successes on Oratory, he also gains them on another related skill. Fast Talk or Cutting a Deal would be appropriate in this case.

A high-tier monument would give AB a shed-load of Extra Successes, 8-Again on Oratory AND the benefit would apply to all Persuasion checks.

Something similar could be done for that Xiuhcoatl Fighting Dojo. A low-tier monument could give the bonus to a particular combat manoeuvre in a particular fighting style. A mid-tier could give the bonuses to all uses of the fighting style while a high-tier one gives the bonus to all uses of Brawl.

Of course, this is all up to change. It just seemed like an easy way to give them an in-game effect.

That kind of stuff is a possibility.


As a side note (this is the last time I'll talk about this until Monuments are done), mention was made about Hoardlings not being "Gothic Horror"-y enough. Right now I'm currently working on a story to rectify that.

It's about a man getting eaten alive by a pack of wild Hoardlings. Flesh ripped away, bones fractured to get at the marrow and a squabble over his loose change. All culminating in someone wondering what that awful smell coming from under their house is.

Now I'm trying to decide whether or not that's too far in the other direction. :smalltongue: Gothic horror doesn't necessarily mean murderous. I think that emphasizing their greediness could be enough. And besides, making something that cute so deadly can wrap it around from horror into parody.

I'd go subtler. Not eating a guy alive, but scavenging over him after he's dead for trinkets and little mouthfuls of meat. And then proudly presenting his slightly bloody shinies to their dragon companion.

[Sgt. Cookie]

That works a little better, aye. I can work with that. *puts on writers hat and walks away*

[Xallace]

Some thoughts on EoE, if we go with the core I suggested:


Eyes in the Back of Your Head and Blindsight both got subsumed into the core, so we can delete those.
Pilgrim's Ears and Cold Reading can probably be merged into a single 1-dot auxiliary. That or Pilgrim's Ears can be changed to a low-dot Heads of Wise Counsel auxiliary.
Read Earth is probably pretty useless unless it lets you pull off that cool Earth-Bending trick that lets you find hidden doorways and tunnels and things, although how dragon-y would that be, really?
Eyes of Delphi can probably be lowered, dot-wise.
A couple of the original ideas for the core can become auxiliaries. I think being able to see the ants on a log from a mile away would be a pretty neat auxiliary, don't you?
Likewise, giving improved scent would be a good one. Track by scent, maybe smell emotions or something like that.
Actual precognition and clairvoyant-type powers can be moved back into EoE, since we're moving them out of sorcery. As mentioned, we can move the immediate-prediction down a peg or two and replace it's level with longer-term future sight. Clairvoyance in the "scrying" sense is a purview of the Nagaraja, so we can leave that to them. Join the Serpent Kings if you want to be the ultimate information broker and a Demon's best friend.
I have no idea what Stop the World would actually do, since it doesn't actually stop time it just lets you perceive things more quickly. We may want to replace that one if nobody can come up with a good ability for that.


Edit:

For what it's worth, Promethean has "Sensorium" transmutations that are in line with EoE. Improved Senses are all 1-dot, the ability to translate language is 1-dot, Heat Vision is rated at 3, and psychic powers are 4-dot and above. Obviously we can shuffle things around a bit, although it might be worth raising Full Spectrum Eyes by a dot or two and making Telescopic/Microscopic Vision the 1-dot power.

We're also missing a night-vision auxiliary.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Stop the world: As a Reflex action, the world, including you, stops dead. You can see everything and think "normally" within the stopped world, but you cannot move your body. You can move your head and eyes, though to look around, but nothing else. During this stopped time, you can make as many checks as you like that would be considered "intellectual", such as a Streetwise check to know what gang you just pissed off or an Occult check to know exactly what sort of ghost you're fighting. You can make as many checks as you like during this stopped time, but you cannot re-make a check you failed.

You can also make a plan of action, obviously, which can include activating another Legacy with a Reflex or Instant action cost or switching from Anthropos to Drakonos or vice-versa. You can only do one thing, though.

EDIT:

You know that story thing I mentioned two hours ago? Well, here it is:

It was a pleasant summer evening in a small town where the Hydra Aimyaal was leaving a party. She had a good time, made some friends and took some photos. She flicked through them on her phone wondering if this town had an open Wi-Fi connection. She kept her hoard in an online library. Safest place for it, really. Aimyaal was wearing a large backpack containing all her amenities, food, water and, of course, her trusted traveling companion. A creature that looked like a tiny Drake, her Hoardling, Zivitt. Zivitt was instructed to stay in his pocket during the party, which obviously he ignored, as Zivitt’s little hoard of coins had grown somewhat. “At least he stayed out of sight” Aimyaal thought when she found out. Aimyaal was still deep into her phone, going over each picture again and again while Zivitt had his head hung out of the pocket, dozing in the evening sun.

Suddenly, a scent reached Zivitt’s keen nose, Aimyaal too distracted to notice it, which caused Zivitt to scratch and scurry out of his pocket and up onto Aimyaal’s shoulder. Nose stuck in the air, Zivitt sniffed the air until he caught the direction of the scent. Aimyaal noticed Zivitt, at least. “What is it? Smell something? Go on, then. Find it.” And with those words, Zivitt was off. He scurried along the empty pavement until he came across a small alleyway, just next to some boarded up buildings. The buildings had this strange red marking on them, but Zivitt payed it no mind. Instead, he trundled deeper into the alley, to find what he was after.

There, lying on the floor, was the carcass of a man. About 20 years old, this man was wearing strange clothing, but Zivitt neither knew the significance of them, nor cared. In truth, this man was a simple gangbanger on a rival’s turf, who’d been killed a couple of days prior. The body had started to decompose, but Zivitt wasn’t fazed. He clawed at the man’s jacket and pockets until he found the wallet. He tried tugging at the wallet, but it was stuck in the man’s pocket, so he bit away at the fabric until the wallet tumbled out. With the wallet safely on the floor and in Zivitt’s sight, he turned his attention back to the man.

Finding a bit of bare flesh on his leg, Zivitt scraped away the decomposing flesh with a claw until he found fresh meat underneath. Tearing away at the man’s leg with his teeth, Zivitt grabbed a flap of rotten skin and pulled it way, until a whole segment of leg was available. Zivitt ate his fill of meat and had a look at the man’s hands. He saw a couple of rings on his left hand and one on his right. Zivitt walked up to the left hand, first and tugged at one of the rings with his mouth. It wasn’t coming off, so Zivitt decided to chew through the finger to get at the ring. A moment later, the man’s roughly amputated finger lay on the floor, now ringless. Zivitt threaded his tail through the slightly bloody ring and went for the other two. They slipped off much easier and joined the first on his tail.

Zivitt went back to the wallet and tried to pick it up. It was made of a tough material and his teeth just wouldn’t get a good enough grip. So instead he tugged at the thin strap until it ripped, opening the wallet. Zivitt felt around with his nose and found the coin segment, which was covered in a flimsy material. It easily gave way to the Hoardling’s jaws and coins spilled out everywhere. Taking up a mouthful of coins, Zivitt ran back to Aimyaal ready to present his newest additions, jingling all the way.

He found Aimyaal about 20 yards down the path, sat on a bench. She wasn’t on her phone, instead waiting for Zivitt’s return. The jingling sound gave him away and Aimyaal was glad to see her companion had returned and with some new things as well. Zivitt first leapt up onto the bench, to deposit his new coins, and then sat on Aimyaal’s lap. He presented the rings to Aimyaal, who took them off his tail and had a look at them. The slightly bloody one had a strange marking on it, which Aimyaal assumed was some sort of gang symbol, while the other two were plainer. One appeared to be a plain gold wedding ring, while the last was some sort of strange silver. Wherever Zivitt got these, she probably didn’t want to know and selling them off to a standard pawnbroker is going to mean some questions. So she stowed them away in a secret compartment, for when she finds others of her kind. Others who won’t ask many questions. Zivitt went back into his pocket and sunk into it completely, admiring his personal hoard.

[One Tin Soldier]

Some thoughts on EoE, if we go with the core I suggested:


Eyes in the Back of Your Head and Blindsight both got subsumed into the core, so we can delete those.
Pilgrim's Ears and Cold Reading can probably be merged into a single 1-dot auxiliary. That or Pilgrim's Ears can be changed to a low-dot Heads of Wise Counsel auxiliary.
Read Earth is probably pretty useless unless it lets you pull off that cool Earth-Bending trick that lets you find hidden doorways and tunnels and things, although how dragon-y would that be, really?
Eyes of Delphi can probably be lowered, dot-wise.
A couple of the original ideas for the core can become auxiliaries. I think being able to see the ants on a log from a mile away would be a pretty neat auxiliary, don't you?
Likewise, giving improved scent would be a good one. Track by scent, maybe smell emotions or something like that.
Actual precognition and clairvoyant-type powers can be moved back into EoE, since we're moving them out of sorcery. As mentioned, we can move the immediate-prediction down a peg or two and replace it's level with longer-term future sight. Clairvoyance in the "scrying" sense is a purview of the Nagaraja, so we can leave that to them. Join the Serpent Kings if you want to be the ultimate information broker and a Demon's best friend.
I have no idea what Stop the World would actually do, since it doesn't actually stop time it just lets you perceive things more quickly. We may want to replace that one if nobody can come up with a good ability for that.


Edit:

For what it's worth, Promethean has "Sensorium" transmutations that are in line with EoE. Improved Senses are all 1-dot, the ability to translate language is 1-dot, Heat Vision is rated at 3, and psychic powers are 4-dot and above. Obviously we can shuffle things around a bit, although it might be worth raising Full Spectrum Eyes by a dot or two and making Telescopic/Microscopic Vision the 1-dot power.

We're also missing a night-vision auxiliary.

These all seem like good ideas. Shuffling dot ratings around is fine, blind sense is useful, and I agree that telescopic vision and the like can be moved to auxiliaries.

And I figured that night vision was kinda covered by the infravision and blind sense.


Stop the world: As a Reflex action, the world, including you, stops dead. You can see everything and think "normally" within the stopped world, but you cannot move your body. You can move your head and eyes, though to look around, but nothing else. During this stopped time, you can make as many checks as you like that would be considered "intellectual", such as a Streetwise check to know what gang you just pissed off or an Occult check to know exactly what sort of ghost you're fighting. You can make as many checks as you like during this stopped time, but you cannot re-make a check you failed.

You can also make a plan of action, obviously, which can include activating another Legacy with a Reflex or Instant action cost or switching from Anthropos to Drakonos or vice-versa. You can only do one thing, though.

EDIT:

You know that story thing I mentioned two hours ago? Well, here it is:

It was a pleasant summer evening in a small town where the Hydra Aimyaal was leaving a party. She had a good time, made some friends and took some photos. She flicked through them on her phone wondering if this town had an open Wi-Fi connection. She kept her hoard in an online library. Safest place for it, really. Aimyaal was wearing a large backpack containing all her amenities, food, water and, of course, her trusted traveling companion. A creature that looked like a tiny Drake, her Hoardling, Zivitt. Zivitt was instructed to stay in his pocket during the party, which obviously he ignored, as Zivitt’s little hoard of coins had grown somewhat. “At least he stayed out of sight” Aimyaal thought when she found out. Aimyaal was still deep into her phone, going over each picture again and again while Zivitt had his head hung out of the pocket, dozing in the evening sun.

Suddenly, a scent reached Zivitt’s keen nose, Aimyaal too distracted to notice it, which caused Zivitt to scratch and scurry out of his pocket and up onto Aimyaal’s shoulder. Nose stuck in the air, Zivitt sniffed the air until he caught the direction of the scent. Aimyaal noticed Zivitt, at least. “What is it? Smell something? Go on, then. Find it.” And with those words, Zivitt was off. He scurried along the empty pavement until he came across a small alleyway, just next to some boarded up buildings. The buildings had this strange red marking on them, but Zivitt payed it no mind. Instead, he trundled deeper into the alley, to find what he was after.

There, lying on the floor, was the carcass of a man. About 20 years old, this man was wearing strange clothing, but Zivitt neither knew the significance of them, nor cared. In truth, this man was a simple gangbanger on a rival’s turf, who’d been killed a couple of days prior. The body had started to decompose, but Zivitt wasn’t fazed. He clawed at the man’s jacket and pockets until he found the wallet. He tried tugging at the wallet, but it was stuck in the man’s pocket, so he bit away at the fabric until the wallet tumbled out. With the wallet safely on the floor and in Zivitt’s sight, he turned his attention back to the man.

Finding a bit of bare flesh on his leg, Zivitt scraped away the decomposing flesh with a claw until he found fresh meat underneath. Tearing away at the man’s leg with his teeth, Zivitt grabbed a flap of rotten skin and pulled it way, until a whole segment of leg was available. Zivitt ate his fill of meat and had a look at the man’s hands. He saw a couple of rings on his left hand and one on his right. Zivitt walked up to the left hand, first and tugged at one of the rings with his mouth. It wasn’t coming off, so Zivitt decided to chew through the finger to get at the ring. A moment later, the man’s roughly amputated finger lay on the floor, now ringless. Zivitt threaded his tail through the slightly bloody ring and went for the other two. They slipped off much easier and joined the first on his tail.

Zivitt went back to the wallet and tried to pick it up. It was made of a tough material and his teeth just wouldn’t get a good enough grip. So instead he tugged at the thin strap until it ripped, opening the wallet. Zivitt felt around with his nose and found the coin segment, which was covered in a flimsy material. It easily gave way to the Hoardling’s jaws and coins spilled out everywhere. Taking up a mouthful of coins, Zivitt ran back to Aimyaal ready to present his newest additions, jingling all the way.

He found Aimyaal about 20 yards down the path, sat on a bench. She wasn’t on her phone, instead waiting for Zivitt’s return. The jingling sound gave him away and Aimyaal was glad to see her companion had returned and with some new things as well. Zivitt first leapt up onto the bench, to deposit his new coins, and then sat on Aimyaal’s lap. He presented the rings to Aimyaal, who took them off his tail and had a look at them. The slightly bloody one had a strange marking on it, which Aimyaal assumed was some sort of gang symbol, while the other two were plainer. One appeared to be a plain gold wedding ring, while the last was some sort of strange silver. Wherever Zivitt got these, she probably didn’t want to know and selling them off to a standard pawnbroker is going to mean some questions. So she stowed them away in a secret compartment, for when she finds others of her kind. Others who won’t ask many questions. Zivitt went back into his pocket and sunk into it completely, admiring his personal hoard.


Cool, thanks! I definitely like the image of hoardlings as being scavenging, magpie-like little critters.

And speaking of fiction, a week or two ago I did write up the story of how Eve, my favorite sample character, was found by her Mentor. It's up on her character sheet, linked at the end of the doc.
Originally I was planning to write it as the opening fiction for the book, but it wound up being a little too... "YA Fantasy series" to work there. Granted, I imagine that a lot of Inheritance stories are kinda like that, but it still doesn't quite have the right tone, in my opinion. Perhaps something with more established dragons, or an Heir Apparent getting dropped into the middle of the action.

[Almarck]

Alright like the super sense thing. Gets rid of an otherwise complicated issue handily.
So no contest it's good ennough. May want to state synthenasia is part of what ,many dragons with Eyes experience.

As for Hordlings we should probably establish what level of intelligence they have. I'm fine for them just being slightly smarter than animals but filled with animal desires and greed. That combination is scary enough to seem... realistic and gritty without going overboard. I am not too familiar with Gothic horror admittedly, but I think "animals are animals" would be valid.





Also, yiu guys think we should probably set up an "agenda" list, som sort of master list showing the progress between what areas and where to ensure we are not missing or overlooking parts? We might as well keep track of our progress by some method, maybe a spreadsheet listing each category....

[Sgt. Cookie]

We should probably first establish it's spelled "Hoard-ling" :smalltongue:

Earlier I suggested that Hoardlings could have an Intelligence of 2. Smarter than most animals, but not TOO smart. They are, after all, somewhat aware of "value". Zivitt in the sample fiction knew what a wallet was and what it contained, after all.

[One Tin Soldier]

We should probably first establish it's spelled "Hoard-ling" :smalltongue:

Earlier I suggested that Hoardlings could have an Intelligence of 2. Smarter than most animals, but not TOO smart. They are, after all, somewhat aware of "value". Zivitt in the sample fiction knew what a wallet was and what it contained, after all.

Considering that 2 is the human average, I'm pretty sure that their Intelligence should still be 1.

Making an agenda sounds like a great idea. I'll get on it later today, when I have an opportunity.

[Xallace]

Made updates to EoE in the doc, so now Heads is the general legacy that's furthest behind.

Still haven't worked on the Dynastic legacies, like, at all.

Now that Unique legacies are gained by their current method, I think it's worth re-evaluating their internal mechanics. They're fine if they were gained through direct XP expenditure, but now it's essentially 8 Experiences a dot and even though you're getting other stuff for the Experience, they seem so unimpressive now. I'd like the agenda to include a discussion on these issues.

[Amechra]

I think we should just make the Unique legacies as beefy as possible. As it is, Immortality of Lerna is maybe the strongest (I wonder why?), so all the others should be brought up to that level, at least. Maybe you also get a free Auxiliary Legacy of that dot rating or lower, which has to belong to the Unique Legacy?

[Xallace]

Or condense all the auxiliaries into a core power of the same dot. That way, we only have to worry about writing five exceptionally beefy powers per legacy, and you don't have to spend any extra XP on them. Players of dragon have enough Experience expenditure to worry about as it is. Not to mention Poison of Fafnir is about as beefy as a vegan diet as it stands, that could use an overhaul.

[Almarck]

I recomend ed the getting free legacy dots on Unique because I realized early on that not every character is going to prioritize them, which I'd especially faring since it's the core of the identity in the lore. As a result I suggested something akin to what werewolf and habe that being partially mandatory.

I'm fine with the progression of 1 per 4 dot in other legacies but I'll admit scaling benefits are probably not enough.

Would rewriting the Unique legacies to be more.... expansive be a good idea. The idea I am thinking of is just removing auxullaries from Unique and rather adding many auxullaries as powers the dragon's automatically unlock when their rating in their Heritage legacy rises. Sorta like how Auspices gifts work.

For example say upon reaching second dot in Waters, wryms automatically get Sea servant.

Granted the downside to this is trashing or needing to re purpose or merge several auxullaries. But I think it is worth while as a way to directly tweak the effectiveness of heritage legacies without having to mess with the formulae for their scaling.

Edit: Xal is thinking the same thing I am more or less it seems.. I approve of the plan though well need to be doing some trouble shooting.

[Amechra]

I approve of this suggestion. Would you like me to revise Immortality of Lerna to reflect this development?

[Xallace]

Go ahead and write something up if you're inspired, I'm going to wait to discuss it with Soldier before we implement anything officially.

[One Tin Soldier]

Ok, so here's an agenda for things that need to be completed for the playtest this summer, which is coming up fairly quickly. I've separated the items into Mechanical Work (things that we don't have yet and could use the help of thread filling out) and Writing Work (things that we more or less have already, but are not properly written into the doc yet, so is mostly just for me and Xallace to take care of). Some of the stuff we've been talking about on the thread lately, like the Hoardlings, won't be on either list because they aren't important enough to focus on at the moment. Basically, we need to complete what we have before we add new things.



Mechanical Work
Writing Work


Finalize Core Legacy mechanics; particularly the Unique Legacies, Eyes of Eternity, and Heads of Wise Counsel.
Fill in any missing fluff in the Heritage and Dynasty sections. (For example, Xiuhcoatl and Yinglong need to have their History sections completed.)


Complete the Auxiliary Legacy list. An exact list of missing Auxiliaries will be included later.
Do a read-through to ensure that all of the rules and fluff that need to be there are present. This is one part where fresh sets of eyes will be helpful, or even necessary, as we are too familiar with the fluff to spot when things are missing.


Write up mechanics for all Auxiliaries. This will likely be the most time-intensive work on this list.
Adjust formatting to make it consistent.


Finish work on Antagonists, including Slayer Aretes, Garuda abilities / Dread Powers, Knights of Seigfreid stuff (possibly including revised Spurned material), and Hive material.


Write any other Dragon-specific Merits or the like, including Testaments and Monuments, as well as any Fighting Styles or other Merits that are important.


Rework Sorceries to fit the new fluff, including fluff adjustment on Sorceries that already have full writeups and replacing/moving sorceries that no longer fit the fluff.



I'll add things on to this list or condense it as necessary.

[Xallace]

I hadn't actually read the Hive section written into the doc, and A Unified Whole makes me glad about how committed we are to full-on giant monster fights.