Help! Unconventional Rogue/Race combo

[oldkingkoal]

As the title says I have been trying to tackle a character build that is giving me a touch of trouble. The problem is that the race is all 2HD and 1LAs of Gnoll.

For ease of reference. (http://dndsrd.net/monstersG.html#gnoll)

The DM says that he is open to allowing LA buy off, so that lessens the pain, but now I am having trouble making a build that is useful. I would like for him to maintain some of that Rogue stealthiness and still at least be some what helpful in a fight. I realize that he will never be more than the weakest character in the group so the bar is low as far as my expectations go.

One Idea I found that might be worth trying is a dip into fighter for martial and armor profs, a feat in exotic weapon profs to pick up a spiked chain, then improved trip and combat reflexes. So basically from there the build will focus on getting as many AoO, as I can.

I ask because I lack the experience to tell if such a build is actually viable. Thus I humbly beseech the great masters of GitPG for their wise counsel. Please take pity upon this poor noob.

[Karl Aegis]

If all you want is stealthiness put some levels into ranger. Or, even better, cloistered cleric or druid. Your race specializes in finding prey at night, prey on things not specialized in finding you at night.

[oldkingkoal]

Huh... Hadn't considered Ranger... I'll look into that.

[Troacctid]

Well, humanoid RHD are absolute trash, and you don't get paid back in the slightest for your level adjustment, so basically you just have a handicap for no reason. So you'll just have to build a normal, Strength-based character, and be weaker than you otherwise would have been. There's no meaningful upside to being a gnoll.

[oldkingkoal]

There's no meaningful upside to being a gnoll.

Aside from the flavor and novelty of course.

[Troacctid]

Well, if you're just looking for a cool hyena-headed race, I'd recommend Marrulurk, from Sandstorm. They're smaller, but similar to gnolls in appearance, and they have actual racial abilities that are really good and racial hit dice that don't suck.

[IZ42]

Nah, flavor and fluff are NEVER more important actual mechanics!

As this is 3.5, I have no advice I can give you on this, apart from taking ranger instead of rogue, as it can do stealthy combatant honestly better than rogue.

(Sadly, I find myself guilty of under-fluffing my characters for the sake of picking up more optimal choices, but hey, whatever.)

[atemu1234]

Aside from the flavor and novelty of course.

Yep, no meaningful upside at all.

(Mobile can't do colours)

[squiggit]

the RHD is gross. Worse than the LA if you're using buyoff.

See if you can ask your DM to let you use the Pathfinder Gnoll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/gnoll-6-rp)?

[Seharvepernfan]

The PF gnoll is good, but in 3.5 he'd have to drop that con bonus, and probably pick up an Int or Cha penalty, but otherwise yeah.

OP, you could just play an orc and call it a gnoll.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It can actually work out quite well, but it will take a little while. Once you reach LA +1/ Humanoid 2/ [classes] 3 (ECL 6), you'll pay 5,000 xp to reduce the LA to 0.

Spend your next level-up on Half-Fiend 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), which counts as +1 LA and you don't have to take the rest of it (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Make it this Half-Fiend variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) and make the parent fiend it's based on a Babau (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau).

This has two effects: It adds the Babau's listed skills to your class skill list for your racial HD, and switches the base skill points of your racial HD from two to eight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) since it gives you the Outsider type immediately. You'll basically gain thirty skill points but no more than five ranks in any one skill, and can spend them on any skill that a Babau has listed, as well as the normal Gnoll class skills.

That puts you at Outsider (Augmented Humanoid) 2/ [classes] 3/ LA +1, once you gain three more class levels (ECL 9) you can spend 8,000 xp to reduce your LA to 0 again.

[DrMotives]

Doesn't work like that. You can't retroactively add skill points to past levels, if you could than boosting intelligence on level up would let you add skills for previous levels. Sure, those new skills are now class skills and that changes max ranks on crossclass skills, but otherwise this does nothing for skill gain.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Doesn't work like that. You can't retroactively add skill points to past levels, if you could than boosting intelligence on level up would let you add skills for previous levels. Sure, those new skills are now class skills and that changes max ranks on crossclass skills, but otherwise this does nothing for skill gain.

Normally yes, but Half-Fiend specifically changes the base skill points of your racial HD to what an Outsider gets:

"A half-fiend gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-fiend gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels."

[DrMotives]

That's only because it's not normally an inherited template, usually the half-fiend (or any half-thing template) is something a creature is born with, and it would have had that type and skill points from its first HD. When you add half-fiend mid-game because of whatever is doing it, that clearly doesn't apply. Sounds like you're blatantly ignoring RAI because the RAW didn't assume this would come up, it's as cheesy as fondue.

[atemu1234]

That's only because it's not normally an inherited template, usually the half-fiend (or any half-thing template) is something a creature is born with, and it would have had that type and skill points from its first HD. When you add half-fiend mid-game because of whatever is doing it, that clearly doesn't apply. Sounds like you're blatantly ignoring RAI because the RAW didn't assume this would come up, it's as cheesy as fondue.

And As Tasty! (TM)

[squiggit]

The PF gnoll is good, but in 3.5 he'd have to drop that con bonus, and probably pick up an Int or Cha penalty, but otherwise yeah.

I don't see it. Nothing about the PF gnoll looks like it'd be problematic in a 3.5 game to me.

[atemu1234]

I don't see it. Nothing about the PF gnoll looks like it'd be problematic in a 3.5 game to me.

Yeah, but pathfinder has a higher standard than 3.5 Races. Most LA 1 races are about on par with Base Pathfinder races, if not a bit behind. Directly rules- wise, you're fine. Balance wise, against Lesser Aasimar, you're fine. Base 3.5 Races, though, you're a good deal ahead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's only because it's not normally an inherited template, usually the half-fiend (or any half-thing template) is something a creature is born with, and it would have had that type and skill points from its first HD. When you add half-fiend mid-game because of whatever is doing it, that clearly doesn't apply. Sounds like you're blatantly ignoring RAI because the RAW didn't assume this would come up, it's as cheesy as fondue.

I see nothing wrong with using this method to make races that are nigh-unplayable due to racial HD just a little bit more viable. It's not like it would ever cause the game to be thrown horribly out of balance.

[Chronos]

Note that, if you take levels in any class with a bunch of skill points and Hide as a class skill, you'll at least be able to catch up on your ranks. Humanoid racial HD may suck, but they still (like any HD) increase the maximum number of ranks you're allowed to have in any given skill.

[ShurikVch]

1) What's your opinion about the Long Reach feat from the Unapproachable East?

2) Gnoll Ferocity feat (Races of the Wild). You may get Rage at 4th level of Lunar Rogue ACF (Dragon #340)

3) Maybe, you can get Warcraft gnoll? Same 2 HD and LA +1, but extra +2 Con and favored class: Barbarian - you may dip in for whatever totem you like

Also, in Faerûn gnolls have access to Blooded [Regional] feat - immunity to shaken, and +2 on Spot and Initiative

[oldkingkoal]

Never heard of the long reach feat, but it looks very much up the alley of my character. I'll ask the DM.
Going to have to find the lunar rogue ACF as that also sounds fitting.
The game also takes place in Ebeeron so not sure about stuff from other settings.
Just as an update, the DM checked things out and saw how undeserved those adjustments are and is dropping those HD. So now I just need to come up with a build that has a crazy high STR bonus.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just as an update, the DM checked things out and saw how undeserved those adjustments are and is dropping those HD. So now I just need to come up with a build that has a crazy high STR bonus.

There's an ongoing thread about Str Rogue builds currently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404675-Strength-based-rogue-3-5).

[Deadasadoor]

We had a person in my group play a gnoll. We let them get away with changing the type to Monstrous Humanoid, to at least get 2 good saves and good BaB. I'd argue that gnolls are monstrous enough. Talk to your DM.

[Troacctid]

Never heard of the long reach feat, but it looks very much up the alley of my character. I'll ask the DM.
Going to have to find the lunar rogue ACF as that also sounds fitting.
The game also takes place in Ebeeron so not sure about stuff from other settings.
Just as an update, the DM checked things out and saw how undeserved those adjustments are and is dropping those HD. So now I just need to come up with a build that has a crazy high STR bonus.

Even without the RHD, gnolls aren't worth +1 LA. They're still just worse than orcs with templates.