So... a level 1 wizard and cleric hired an army of hirelings...

[gogogome]

A level 1 wizard and cleric hired an army of hirelings to wipe out a dungeon designed for 6 adventurers, and now are pretty much over-leveled for the rest of the campaign.

Does this happen often in other groups?

[Krobar]

How did they have enough money, at level 1, in order to pay this army?

And no, my players have never tried that.

[gogogome]

How did they have enough money, at level 1, in order to pay this army?

And no, my players have never tried that.

Mercenaries cost 2sp/day, at most 6sp/day for short-term services. Wizards start with 3d4 x10 gold (mine got 100g), clerics start with 5d4 x10 gold (mine got 150g), and together they hired 20 level 1 mercenaries.

6sp/day + 5sp(rations) = 1.1gp a day, x20 = 22gp a day. Took one day to get to the dungeon, 1 day to clear it out, and 1 day to come back for a total of 66gp.

[Bronk]

Did you remember to split the xp evenly between all participants?

If the mercs did all the work, the PCs might not get any xp at all...

[Bullet06320]

there is a feat in Forgotten Realms Campaign setting that gives you 300 gps to start with, hirelings are cheap for a 1 shot mission, so that's a possibility
also if they went cheap with their starting equiptment they would have extra funds

[Necromancy]

the mercenaries demand equal shares of loot

[gogogome]

Did you remember to split the xp evenly between all participants?

If the mercs did all the work, the PCs might not get any xp at all...

DMG specifically says hirelings get 0 xp, and does not affect the XP reward in anyway (their CL is meaningless)

DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own and therefore gains no XP.

DMG105

[Shnigda]

But if the PCs took no part in any of the combat in the dungeon, then they would get no xp, due to them not participating in combat.

I also agree that the loot would be demanded by the mercenaries (also, who is to say that the mercenaries, when in possession of all that loot, actually took it back to the PCs?)

[Spore]

DMG specifically says hirelings get 0 xp, and does not affect the XP reward in anyway (their CL is meaningless)

DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own and therefore gains no XP.

DMG105

This doesn't mean the PCs gain any XP from the dungeon. I would still reward them XP for the idea of hiring other people to risk their precious d4/d8 hides. Also, I wouldn't stick that close to the DMG. You have a plot hook now. The mercenaries have turned in valuables but the "McGuffin" item of legendary power was kept and is now missing. Leading them to their next point of interest and introducing the leader of them as minor villain.

[Studoku]

How did 20 lvl 1 mercenaries beat a dungeon designed for a lvl 6 party?

Even ignoring the logistics of commanding 20 people in a cramped area (there's a reason adventuring parties do jobs like this, not armies), your average 1st level warrior has maybe +3 to hit, a low AC compared to CR 6 challenges and abysmal saves.

[gogogome]

How did 20 lvl 1 mercenaries beat a dungeon designed for a lvl 6 party?

Even ignoring the logistics of commanding 20 people in a cramped area (there's a reason adventuring parties do jobs like this, not armies), your average 1st level warrior has maybe +3 to hit, a low AC compared to CR 6 challenges and abysmal saves.

6 lvl 1 party.

Most of them died. I had the NPCs stats as 10 to all scores, 4(average warrior) + 3(toughness) = 7hp, 75gp gear (longsword, wooden heavy shield, scale mail) for a total of 16ac.

Still though, they were enough to take out goblins and hobgoblins.

[Kazuel]

Doesn't matter what the DMG says. If you don't want that plan succeeding, then it doesn't. I agree that the PCs shouldn't get full xp for that and the mercs should definitely keep the loot.

[Killer Angel]

How did they have enough money, at level 1, in order to pay this army?

And no, my players have never tried that.

If I were one of the players, my first level adventurer would be scared to show lots of gps to a group of dangerous mercenaries (that are rarely lawful good).
The mercenaries could decide it's easier to cut the throats of those 2 rich fools.

[Bronk]

DMG specifically says hirelings get 0 xp, and does not affect the XP reward in anyway (their CL is meaningless)

DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own and therefore gains no XP.

DMG105

I see what you mean, that's a tough page!

Here's the thing though. First, remember that as the DM, you decide everything having to do with NPCs. In this case, I would suggest adjusting availability, equipment, and morale. If they weren't in a big city, they wouldn't have found so many mercs in the first place. If they make so little money, don't equip them with armor so expensive that the PCs might make more from their corpses than from the adventure. If they start dropping like flies, they demand more pay or they leave.

I suppose it's too late to redo your game, but, considering you said that so many hirelings died - but some survived to tell the tale - from now on word should spread that these two PCs took terrible care of their hirelings and be blacklisted from now on. You said it cost them 66 gold, but who was left to collect for the dead? If they were mercenaries, they are in a group, and the group would start asking questions with so many dead. Possibly fatal questions.

I would still adjust their XP... if they literally didn't participate in any particular challenge, don't award them as much XP. CR is partly based on how challenging it is to the PCs, after all.

Remember that if they steamrolled your dungeon in one session, they're not allowed to go up more than one level regardless (PHB p58).

I would also remind the PCs that hirelings are usually level 1 or 2, low level at least, unless they're in Eberron, which has special rules for that kind of thing based on setting, so the trick won't work as well at higher levels. They could still use them to trigger traps or something, but that's it, and at higher levels the traps would probably one shot the hirelings. Remember that there could very well be higher level mercenaries that don't let themselves be hirelings (instead being private guards, town watch, part of the army, high level leaders, mages and clerics on retainer, etc.) available to make reprisals.

One last thing... are these two PCs part of the group from your other recent post that rests between every encounter? If so, that would be the perfect time for 22 random dudes to make enough noise to attract attention from other parts of the dungeon. I'd also say that in general stealth wouldn't be much of an option.

[daremetoidareyo]

Did they even enter the dungeon? Or did they sit at the bar for three Days and collect the xp? In either case, I would give them the xp reward for overcoming challenges. They roleplayed a high int/wis pretty well. If more than 50 % of the warriors died, I would make it nearly impossible for those guys to hire new mercenaries in that town in the future unless they paid significant hazard pay after the fact, even holding the macguffin ( if there was one) hostage until the remaining soldiers are paid "survivor benefits." In a large city, like sigil or water deep, I would continue to let them hire hirelings, but if the next crew had above a 25% mortality rate, they would have a terrible reputation. More skilled retainers would demand significantly higher wages to work with these jerks, but inexperienced and newbs would be available at around normal price, but their stat array/honesty would be deficient.

A grieving young widow could approach the PCs and could wind up cursing them if they treat her too callously.

Long term, you could choose a face for the remaining hirelings, who drafts up a mercenaries union in the country due to being treated as expendable, which drives up mercenary prices, but puts better professionals in the market. Heck this union could become a guild that becomes a questgiver at some point.

[Vhaidara]

You know what you should do? Hand them the character sheets of the mercs they hired and tell them "Hey, so, your characters are now NPC quest givers. Enjoy playing the adventurers like you're supposed to."

[johnbragg]

How many of the hirelings died?

Because that's the number who can come back as a low-CR homebrewed intelligent free-willed undead looking for Vengeance.

[gogogome]

The two PCs were in the thick of the battle using their spells as best as they could. The mercenaries could not have been successful without the sleep and command spells knocking out the CR2 and CR3 monsters.

[LooseCannoneer]

Long term, you could choose a face for the remaining hirelings, who drafts up a mercenaries union in the country due to being treated as expendable, which drives up mercenary prices, but puts better professionals in the market. Heck this union could become a guild that becomes a questgiver at some point.

That's a great idea. I'll probably steal it if you don't care.

[Boci]

Wow there is a lot of spite being directed at the players here. "Interacting with the world in a believable way that the DM and likely game designers didn't anticipate? Take away their characters! Have the mercenaries kill them! Have them come back as vengeful undead!"

Really?

Taking away their characters because they thought of something clever is incredibly bad form and makes the DM seem petty and insecure. Mercenaries may not be lawful good, but a mercenaries who murders or mugs his employee at the first sight of gold is not going to be a mercenary for long. Sure, fighting for money opens up the possibility for being bought out, but it should take more than 150gp, if the mercenaries have any long term planning capabilities. And for vengeful undead, what are the mercenaries vengeful for? They were hired to fight, and died. Were they unaware this was a possible outcome?

The whole "demand an equal share" is also mislead, though not as much as the above. IF you are getting paid to merely be on a venture, that means you probably won't get an equal share, just how I don't get an equal share of company profits, I only get my salary. That said, roleplaying out a scene where the mercenaries demand some bonus of the spoils has potential

What (I think) you can reasonable about this situation -
Don't give them any XP. The DMG may say hirelings don't dock XP, but that if for a party supplementing themselves with hirelings, not quadrupling their power with them. Admit you were wrong to the players, say their clever plan caught you off guard, and retroactively dock most of the XP, explaining that this will be the new standard for XP with so many follower employed. Allow them to keep all treasure and maybe throw in some extra retroactively to balance out the other.

Have the mercenaries refuse the task. They escort caravans, garrison towns and hunt bandits: humanoid opponents. They do not go into long abandoned dungeons to fight monsters. Monsters are for heroes to defeat.

Require a hefty sum per dead mercenaries (works best if this is done through a guild), say 5 or 10 gold at the conclusion of the contract, as they are no now longer earning for the guild.

[bjoern]

The two PCs were in the thick of the battle using their spells as best as they could. The mercenaries could not have been successful without the sleep and command spells knocking out the CR2 and CR3 monsters.

Sounds like the beginnings of a career leader. Somehow tie the baddies in the dungeon to a greater threat that threatens the town. The two PCs rally the town to its own defense. They are now local heroes.
Turn their hirelings into followers and they'll be more motivated to keep them alive.

[Hamste]

Sounds like the PC did an intelligent thing. If the mercenary death rate is too high have them be charged more or have mercenaries just refuse to work for them but other wise there probably isn't a problem. If too many of them die in a battle or if they look too out powered have them retreat, 2 sp a day doesn't buy fearlessness it only buys mild loyalty.

Do not have the mercenaries steal unless the PC chose random people to be hired mercenaries, the mercenaries they chose specifically have a bad reputation or the macguffin is so valuable never working in the mercenary field again and having it is preferable to working (It probably isn't).

If there are more than just the two PCs and their army of mercenaries are causing problems for the others talk to them OOC about it.

[ahenobarbi]

I don't get it. Why everyone wants to punish players for creatively solving a problem?

Congratulate the players and talk with them about what kind of game they want to play (Dungeons and Dragons or Commanders and Squads).

[johnbragg]

The two PCs were in the thick of the battle using their spells as best as they could. The mercenaries could not have been successful without the sleep and command spells knocking out the CR2 and CR3 monsters.

So the PCs shared the risks, and as spellcasters did their share of the work. I think the mercenaries are going to, as a group, demand more than the daily rate for gate-guarding and caravan-muscle. I"d expect a leader of the mercs to demand half of the value of the spoils. (PCs can take the high-value, difficult-to-split items, mercs will want the coin).

How many of the mercs died, anyway?


Wow there is a lot of spite being directed at the players here. "Interacting with the world in a believable way that the DM and likely game designers didn't anticipate? Take away their characters! Have the mercenaries kill them! Have them come back as vengeful undead!"


I thought having them come back as vengeful undead would be a good plot thing. Former allies rising from the grave to stalk the PCs? REcurring villains are supposed to be fun.

[Boci]

I thought having them come back as vengeful undead would be a good plot thing. Former allies rising from the grave to stalk the PCs? REcurring villains are supposed to be fun.

Yeah, but its probably best to save that one for someone the PCs were a bit more close to. "Former allies" is a bit of a generous term for "hired meet shield and monster poker".

[Bronk]

I don't get it. Why everyone wants to punish players for creatively solving a problem?

It's more about helping the DM.

The OP had two main problems: His dungeon got steamrolled, and his players are too high a level now.

For the first, their own reputations will keep it from happening again. After all, they basically sent a dozen or so random dudes to their deaths instead of turning around. They may even face alignment infractions! As for the second, well, if it all happened in one night, they only went up a maximum of one level anyway.

As for the players, well, they took advantage of a rule the DM wasn't prepared for. That's a real life reputation they'll have to live down now.

[Killer Angel]

Wow there is a lot of spite being directed at the players here. "Interacting with the world in a believable way that the DM and likely game designers didn't anticipate? Take away their characters! Have the mercenaries kill them! Have them come back as vengeful undead!"

Really?

...


Mercenaries may not be lawful good, but a mercenaries who murders or mugs his employee at the first sight of gold is not going to be a mercenary for long

The "clever" thing these players did, was: "I don't want to risk my life in this dungeon, I'll send some mercs. By RAW, they'll obey me mindlessly, now give me the prize".
For a starter, I wouldn't say that mindless hirelings are believable at all. And mercs that can be paid with a couple of silver, will rarely have a "reputation". They're more low level thugs.

[bjoern]

The "clever" thing these players did, was: "I don't want to risk my life in this dungeon, I'll send some mercs. By RAW, they'll obey me mindlessly, now give me the prize".
For a starter, I wouldn't say that mindless hirelings are believable at all. And mercs that can be paid with a couple of silver, will rarely have a "reputation". They're more low level thugs.

Magic isn't believable either.
If the PCs want to be leaders, make them leaders. Present them with quests that make them take the leadership role.

Rather than smite down the players with falling rocks becuase they don't solve their challenges with a d12 and power attack , take what they've given you and spin it into a campaign.

[Boci]

The "clever" thing these players did, was: "I don't want to risk my life in this dungeon, I'll send some mercs. By RAW, they'll obey me mindlessly, now give me the prize".

Sure, if you want to interpret the players actions in the worst possible light, for little to no reason, sure that's valid. But so is "This seems really dangerous, but if we are willing to risk our lives for reward than others would be too. We could team up. But how? We may not find other adventurers. Who else would be willing to fight for coin?" You know, viewing the game world as, an actual world.


For a starter, I wouldn't say that mindless hirelings are believable at all. And mercs that can be paid with a couple of silver, will rarely have a "reputation". They're more low level thugs.

I don't either, hence why one of my suggestions was that in future the mercs decline the offer. But reputation or not, mercenaries need to stay loyal to their employer. You can view them as low level thugs, but that is an entirely baseless view. 6 silver a day is decent for a semi-professional warrior who wants to earn coin without being tied to any one person.

[johnbragg]

The two PCs were in the thick of the battle using their spells as best as they could. The mercenaries could not have been successful without the sleep and command spells knocking out the CR2 and CR3 monsters.


The "clever" thing these players did, was: "I don't want to risk my life in this dungeon, I'll send some mercs. By RAW, they'll obey me mindlessly, now give me the prize".
For a starter, I wouldn't say that mindless hirelings are believable at all. And mercs that can be paid with a couple of silver, will rarely have a "reputation". They're more low level thugs.

According to OP, what you said isn't what happened. The clever thing they did was, apparently, instead of finding one or two (or three or four, for a 6 PC adventure) adventurer-caliber beatsticks with PC classes who would get equal shares of the loot, they rented a whole lot of Generic Goons.

Now, the DM shouldn't have allowed the PCs to hire mercenaries at list-price for "unusual duty". For what the mercs were being paid, they'd do things like accompany the party to the dungeon and watch the horses and food while the PC heroes when dungeon-crashing--doing that in the middle of a goblin-infested wilderness is the sort of thing 6 sp/day gets you. So I'd expect the mercenaries to have a talk with the party, and demand a bonus--the mercs encountered more danger than they bargained for, they should get double their rate, or half of the treasure. Especially if the PCs are hauling home substantial amounts of coin.

I also don't think the PCs would see that as an unreasonable request by the mercs.

[Killer Angel]

Sure, if you want to interpret the players actions in the worst possible light, for little to no reason, sure that's valid. But so is "This seems really dangerous, but if we are willing to risk our lives for reward than others would be too. We could team up. But how? We may not find other adventurers. Who else would be willing to fight for coin?" You know, viewing the game world as, an actual world.

That's another whole matter.
If the PCs are paying hirelings to go together into the dungeon, it's one thing.
If the PCs are paying the hirelings "go and wipe the dungeon, we'll wait for you keeping the fire camp alive" it's another.

My impression was the latter, hence my approach.
Sadly, when reading the thread, I totally missed this post:

The two PCs were in the thick of the battle using their spells as best as they could. The mercenaries could not have been successful without the sleep and command spells knocking out the CR2 and CR3 monsters.

I was wrong in my assumption, so the only thing I can do, is to retreat my previous statements and apologize.

[johnbragg]

I was wrong in my assumption, so the only thing I can do, is to retreat my previous statements and apologize.

Well done, Killer Angel, well done.

But are you allowed to be that reasonable on an internet forum?

[Killer Angel]

But are you allowed to be that reasonable on an internet forum?

THIS... IS... THE PLAYGROUND! :smallsmile:

[jiriku]

Hi gogogome! Looks like you're having a bit of trouble with clever players. I can tell you that while my players have never tried that particular trick, mine always do seem to surprise me one way or another. As DMs we spend a lot of our time hastily improvising while thinking "how did they come up with that?, don't we?

Congratulations for rolling with their unexpected idea and managing encounters with all those unexpected extras! Finding a way to say "Yes, and..." when players do something unexpected is the DM's job, and you're doing a great job.

What your players did was smart, and rules-legal. However, it was only possible because you overlooked an important line on DMG 105. "Also, the prices do not include materials, tools, or weapons the hireling may need to do his or her job." The DMG expects that the base price for a mercenary does not include weapons and armor. If the PCs pay 2 silver pieces per day, they need to provide gear. If they find mercs who already have their own gear, then those mercs are justified in charging more than 2 silver pieces per day (how much more is up to you).

I'd recommend that you tell the players that you overlooked some rules for hirelings and made them available too cheaply. You won't penalize them for your error, but they should expect that hiring mercenaries in the future will cost more. They should keep the xp and treasure that they have already earned: it is a reward for clever thinking, taking some risks, and playing the game well. If you feel the game is a little out of balance now, you should react by slightly reducing the treasure and xp rewards you grant for the next few adventures until they ease back to a power level that you consider appropriate.

Also, for the sake of realism within the world, they should expect that there may be fewer mercenaries available for a short time. The dead won't be replaced by new mercenaries for many months of game time, and those mercs who survived may not be eager to risk death again after such a brutal series of fights. Those mercs who still want to hire themselves out may find that they have a reputation now and other adventuring parties are eager to hire them as well. Thus, they may not all be available when the PCs want their services.

[Sith_Happens]

A level 1 wizard and cleric hired an army of hirelings to wipe out a dungeon designed for 6 adventurers, and now are pretty much over-leveled for the rest of the campaign.

Does this happen often in other groups?

Look at it this way: If the PCs managed to keep most of the hirelings alive (and therefore haven't been blacklisted from doing this again), then you now get to have a campaign where they eventually end up leading a permanent mercenary company and doing mercenary captain things.

[Cruiser1]

What your players did was smart, and rules-legal. However, it was only possible because you overlooked an important line on DMG 105. "Also, the prices do not include materials, tools, or weapons the hireling may need to do his or her job." The DMG expects that the base price for a mercenary does not include weapons and armor. If the PCs pay 2 silver pieces per day, they need to provide gear.
Also, DMG page 105 says:


"Like cohorts, hirelings must be treated fairly well, or they will leave and might even turn against their former employers. Some hirelings might require hazard pay (perhaps as high as double normal pay) if placed in particularly dangerous situations."
"The prices on the table are for long-term retention of services; hiring someone for just a day or two might cost two or three times the indicated price."

Clearing out a dungeon is definitely a dangerous situation, and requires double pay. Also, unless it's the World's Longest Dungeon, the hirelings are only hired for a day or two, so need to be paid triple. Double combined with triple = 6x, so by RAW the hirelings need to be paid up to 12sp per day, instead of just 2sp, in addition to you providing them with equipment. So yes, hirelings can be a good tactic to employ, but they're not as easy to take advantage of as one might think.

[Raven777]

I also agree that the loot would be demanded by the mercenaries (also, who is to say that the mercenaries, when in possession of all that loot, actually took it back to the PCs?)


If I were one of the players, my first level adventurer would be scared to show lots of gps to a group of dangerous mercenaries (that are rarely lawful good).
The mercenaries could decide it's easier to cut the throats of those 2 rich fools.

"DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own and therefore gains no XP.

DMG105"

[Killer Angel]

"DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own
DMG105"

The answer to this, has already been posted.


Also, DMG page 105 says:
"Like cohorts, hirelings must be treated fairly well, or they will leave and might even turn against their former employers.

[Vhaidara]

Also answered by the fact that, if you read that, and assume you can get away with it, you should expect to be clubbed with the offending book. Seriously, unless the hirelings are undead or constructs, they aren't mindless. Like, that's actually a thing connected to having an Int of -.

Once again, we have evidence that WotC doesn't know what words mean.

[jiriku]

With the "mindless drones" comment, the OP was interpreting and summing up the text. The actual passage in the DMG does not say "mindless drones." Rather, it makes it clear that hirelings are fully autonomous people within the game world, but that they don't help the party decide what to do and therefore don't deserve xp.

[Maglubiyet]

"DMG says hirelings are mindless drones that make no decision of their own and therefore gains no XP.

It's always so tedious with these hirelings, constantly having to remind them to eat, sleep, dress, and clean themselves. Not to mention to actually do they job you hired them for. "Swing that sword, now!"

Once we hired a couple of guys and accidentally forgot them at a tavern. By the time we got back from our adventure, they had starved to death covered in their own feces. Tragic really.

[Ashtagon]

The PCs shouldn't have had that much money lying around in the first place.


Note that buying beginning equipment this way is an abstraction. Your character doesn’t walk into a store with handfuls of gold and buy every item one by one. Rather, these items may have come the character’s way as gifts from family, equipment from patrons, gear granted during military service, swag gained through duplicity, and so on.

It's quite reasonable for the DM to say any cash more than 5gp or so left after gear is "purchased" is simply lost.

Regarding the mercenary cost... Base 2sp/day, x2 for danger money, and then x3 because it's short-term work. So, 12 sp/day. It's still chump change though.

Did you remember NPC attitudes? Once they've lost a man or two, their attitude will become Unfriendly and they will want to leave.

RAW says mercenaries aren't mindless drones. They follow PC orders as long as they remain cooperative (ie as long as not too many have died). So they don't affect party XP. But equally, if the PCs aren't personally involved in the fight, they aren't getting XP either.

I'd rule that once the mercenaries have lost 10% of their numbers, it's some kind of Charisma check each time a man is down or after a fight in which they suffer injuries. And once they've lost 50%, they're leaving, with or without the PCs.

[Sir Chuckles]

If you honestly can't, or don't want to, retcon this, you're going to have to spin it into a sub-narrative of it's own.

A bunch of dudes just witnessed some guys get rich quick. Apparently, these dudes have higher-up connections. It's easy to see what thrilling adventures these under equipped but walking piggy bank PCs could get into.

What kind of dungeon was it meant to be? Was it just a one-off that had no real bearing on the plot beyond "get levels, get money"? Was there something in the dungeon they were supposed to obtain? Did they leave no survivors? How much cash did they walk out with? Did the mercs really witness them toss a crate of gold into their backpack and expect to just walk away after paying them a pittance in comparison?

These are things that could easily be weaved into a storyline that bypasses some of the earlier campaign. If they're overleveled for the campaign, level the campaign. More than a bit annoying, but if all else fails, and depending on the level they ended up at, they could easily say "We've gained more in an evening than most people gain in half their Dwarven lifetime. We're retiring." There, you've got a mulligan.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's a great idea. I'll probably steal it if you don't care.

I assume all ideas on this forum are open for poaching. Why bother posting your ideas if you're not amenable to them being used, you know? Thanks for asking, though.

[Vizzerdrix]

I agree with the majority. Punish the players for being clever. Don't try to talk with them OOG about it, and certainly DO NOT take this new direction and run with it! Make every npc hostile towards them. Set a plague of kenders on them. Curse them with items of legacy and let that be their only gear! If they get up to use the restroom, toss D4s under their feet! Replace every encounter with a game of Spellfire! MWAAA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!

[gogogome]

How many of the hirelings died?

Actually, the exact number was 15 hirelings. I had anyone who lost more than half their hp stop engaging in future encounters. Each hireling had 7hp (4hp was average for a 1d8 hit die, their CON was 10, and 3hp from toughness feat)

Against hobgoblins, goblins, and monitor lizards, 4 hirelings were disabled, 4 were 1hp, and 2 were 3hp. 5 were left and they engaged a howler and despite all the color sprays in the world, all 5 died with the howler surviving with 6hp.

When the PCs returned to town they brought the heads of all the slain creatures and gave them to the mercenary guild. The PCs then told them how the group took out most of the goblins and the remaining exhausted 5 almost killed an extraplanar beast, and a second group of 20 mercenaries would totally finish the job, and the mercenary guild can have the extraplanar beast's head mounted on a wall to increase the guild's reputation.

The total loot of the failed adventure resulted in 2.4kgp, which was more than enough to buy 20 mercenaries for 3 more days. I added hazard pay for the maximum 12sp/day, +5sp/day for rations.

And as promised, the 20 mercenaries ganged up and flanked the poor howler like crazy after a single successful color spray stun, and pretty much destroyed the last 1/4th of the dungeon. Only 2 mercs were disabled in the 2nd run. Hard to fail a heal check if 20 characters are making it.

[RoboEmperor]

If I were the PCs I'd bring in mob rules. A mob is better than any number of pathetic melee NPCs who need a crit to hit anything. Flanking and tripping helps, but they can only go so far.

[DrKerosene]

For what it's worth, pages 154-157 of the DMG2 have some notes about Hirelings, mostly "Specialists", which I think is just a 20th level generic Expert Build with cost information instead of combat stuff. The section also has some stuff about paying a real Adventurer (PC class NPC) who has "no fear of fighting monsters", at least compared to an NPC class character.

Since they're not intended to risk their necks, anything "hazardous" usually adds +500gp to their cost, but that's for non-combat specialists. I'm sure Mercs who are informed they're going to kill monsters might be worth less before "casualty costs", but +500gp per NPC might be a decent deterrent.

Additionally, the Leadership feat does have some stuff to say about letting Hirelings/Followers/Cohorts die, not much though.

Is there any chance the dangerous/short-term pay stuff stacks in the same way as Critical Multipliers? Though I do think increasing the cost for Mercs is the way to go, rather than decrease.

[lunasmeow]

Also, DMG page 105 says:
"Like cohorts, hirelings must be treated fairly well, or they will leave and might even turn against their former employers.

That's for if they are mistreated. Not for simply showing some gold and offering to hire them. Or even dying on duty. Big difference there. The job comes with death as a possible result. As mentioned earlier. It's like joining the military and complaining when you get deployed.

[ekarney]

A level 1 wizard and cleric hired an army of hirelings to wipe out a dungeon designed for 6 adventurers,and now are pretty much over-leveled for the rest of the campaign.

Does this happen often in other groups?


There's a fix for that, give the other 4 players an opportunity to do something similar.
Maybe the Wizard and Cleric got captured by the hirelings and the party has to go rescue them.

Alternatively, wait a few levels, then get them killed and resurrected. Should provide them with a hefty XP loss.

[lunasmeow]

The PCs shouldn't have had that much money lying around in the first place.



It's quite reasonable for the DM to say any cash more than 5gp or so left after gear is "purchased" is simply lost.

Regarding the mercenary cost... Base 2sp/day, x2 for danger money, and then x3 because it's short-term work. So, 12 sp/day. It's still chump change though.

Did you remember NPC attitudes? Once they've lost a man or two, their attitude will become Unfriendly and they will want to leave.

RAW says mercenaries aren't mindless drones. They follow PC orders as long as they remain cooperative (ie as long as not too many have died). So they don't affect party XP. But equally, if the PCs aren't personally involved in the fight, they aren't getting XP either.

I'd rule that once the mercenaries have lost 10% of their numbers, it's some kind of Charisma check each time a man is down or after a fight in which they suffer injuries. And once they've lost 50%, they're leaving, with or without the PCs.

Several things.

Handing out starting gold that way is an *option* but obviously this DM didn't make them lose extra gold. He gave them gold (say, they had saved their allowance from childhood for years to be adventurers when they grew up) and they bought stuff. Believable.

It's a good idea for him to use in the future with these players in other campaigns, but a DM who says "you did something I didn't expect, so I'm arbitrarily changing the past" is a bad DM. And this goes for everyone who is talking about finding ways to punish, or otherwise screw over two players who did something different from the norm. You're all being ridiculous. The whole point of D&D is to have a true "open world" game where you can try anything, the only issue is whether it succeeds or not. If they wanted to play a linear game with only one way of solving problems, they could get on a console.

Also, "remaining cooperative" has literally *nothing* to do with how many mercenaries have died. They aren't being "uncooperative" just because they couldn't keep everyone alive. They'd be being uncooperative if they refused to assist in battle, and pushed the mercs at a hard pace, not giving them a chance to rest. Other than that, death is a risk of the job. Like my previous post about joining the military. Being a merc is dangerous. You aren't a merc long if you don't face the realities of the job.

Also, as previously stated, the PC's were "in the thick of the fight". Not to mention, if they died while in the dungeon, and they only were surviving due to the presence of the mage and cleric, they aren't likely to abandon them *while still in the dungeon*. Who knows what they might face on the way out without said cleric to heal them and wizard to cast spells on the monsters? And don't try to say, they killed everything behind them. Really? I don't see a rouge or ranger with them to detect hidden entrances. How do they know that there isn't a passage for things deeper in to end up behind them? Or a hunting party out hunting for food, only to return and they face them without their healer? Have none of you ever played where you went in a dungeon, found it surprisingly easy, only to face the real threat on the way out when the hunters returned with meat for their wives and children, the weak monsters you just killed? Mercs would know better than this. If they're going to complain, it'll be after they get out.

As a final note, and as a DM myself, you people need to remember: Being a DM isn't about telling your story and having the players play through it. It's about creating a vibrant world and seeing what happens when people interact with it. It's like being God. You make a world, and give people free will. It's not interesting if you pull everyone's strings. And if you made things too easy, now you know better for the next world you make.

So don't punish people for your mistakes. Learn from them instead. Besides, sometimes it's not a mistake, it's just a good idea that not everyone would pick up on. If we punished everyone who had a good idea, the we'd never have discovered anything, and still be living in caves.

[SinsI]

6 lvl 1 party.

Most of them died. I had the NPCs stats as 10 to all scores, 4(average warrior) + 3(toughness) = 7hp, 75gp gear (longsword, wooden heavy shield, scale mail) for a total of 16ac.

Still though, they were enough to take out goblins and hobgoblins.

So, you use 1.1 gp to hire them and if they die you get 75 gp worth of gear back?!!!

[lunasmeow]

So, you use 1.1 gp to hire them and if they die you get 75 gp worth of gear back?!!!

Well, normally the PC would also supply gear, but if it was a merc group that already had their own gear, then the survivors would get that gear, not the PCs. Unless ALL of the mercs died... Evil party anyone?

[Ashtagon]

Also, "remaining cooperative" has literally *nothing* to do with how many mercenaries have died. They aren't being "uncooperative" just because they couldn't keep everyone alive. They'd be being uncooperative if they refused to assist in battle, and pushed the mercs at a hard pace, not giving them a chance to rest. Other than that, death is a risk of the job. Like my previous post about joining the military. Being a merc is dangerous. You aren't a merc long if you don't face the realities of the job.

Historically speaking, mercenary soldiers were *notorious* for running at the first sign of genuine trouble. You want monkeys, you pay peanuts. You want quality footsoldiers, pay serious money.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, I'm on the player's side. Give them normal XP, but charge their gold for the mercenaries.

[Sith_Happens]

When the PCs returned to town they brought the heads of all the slain creatures and gave them to the mercenary guild. The PCs then told them how the group took out most of the goblins and the remaining exhausted 5 almost killed an extraplanar beast, and a second group of 20 mercenaries would totally finish the job, and the mercenary guild can have the extraplanar beast's head mounted on a wall to increase the guild's reputation.

The total loot of the failed adventure resulted in 2.4kgp, which was more than enough to buy 20 mercenaries for 3 more days. I added hazard pay for the maximum 12sp/day, +5sp/day for rations.

And as promised, the 20 mercenaries ganged up and flanked the poor howler like crazy after a single successful color spray stun, and pretty much destroyed the last 1/4th of the dungeon. Only 2 mercs were disabled in the 2nd run. Hard to fail a heal check if 20 characters are making it.

And now the PCs are well on their way to ending up with a permanent contract with this guild, and/or possibly being asked to join as heads of the new "Exploratory Brigade." Plot hooks, plot hooks everywhere.:smallwink:


It's like joining the military and complaining when you get deployed.

You'd be surprised how many people do exactly this, both in real life and in fiction.

[SinsI]

Well, normally the PC would also supply gear, but if it was a merc group that already had their own gear, then the survivors would get that gear, not the PCs. Unless ALL of the mercs died... Evil party anyone?

Mercenaries that supply their own equipment should be significantly more expensive than those that use yours. IMHO, you have to increase the cost per day by about 1/7th of the equipment cost - i.e. command word item with 1 charge per day provides you 50/360 of its cost in "single use, use-activated", so that's the fair interest rate on borrowed equipment.


The total loot of the failed adventure resulted in 2.4kgp, which was more than enough to buy 20 mercenaries for 3 more days. I added hazard pay for the maximum 12sp/day, +5sp/day for rations.
Any sane mercenary would've slit the throats of your party and taken the whole 2.4k gp.

[Killer Angel]

That's for if they are mistreated. Not for simply showing some gold and offering to hire them. Or even dying on duty. Big difference there. The job comes with death as a possible result.

Too much deaths, and mercenaries will break. Sooner than soldiers.

[lunasmeow]

And now the PCs are well on their way to ending up with a permanent contract with this guild, and/or possibly being asked to join as heads of the new "Exploratory Brigade." Plot hooks, plot hooks everywhere.:smallwink:



You'd be surprised how many people do exactly this, both in real life and in fiction.

Plot hooks for days!!!

But yeah, if definitely happens. When it does, we give those people **** for whining too. Makes the rest of us look bad.

[lunasmeow]

Too much deaths, and mercenaries will break. Sooner than soldiers.

Definitely true, but the point was also considering the situation they were in. Being in the middle of a dungeon with the clerics spells being practically the only thing keeping them alive... not making a lot of sense to run away from the healer. With more supporting reasons in the previous (and long) post.

[Maglubiyet]

Entire groups have mutinied over such trivial things as receiving low-quality tea, dreary weather, too many night shifts, and disrespectful overseers. I think it's fair to say that seeing half of your coworkers torn apart by supernatural creatures is on the extreme end of unpleasant work environments.

Sure, they were mercenaries, but at that pay rate, most of them were probably envisioning something more along the lines of night security guard than tunnel rat clearing out booby-trapped Viet Cong bunkers.

It's not punishment to play out the consequences of depleting a town of 10% of its men of marrying age. You can be sure that an event of this magnitude would be talked about for decades in the surrounding region. The fact that the PC's made off with a lot of cash, and everyone knows it, is only going to make it worse.

In the real world, when people make their fortunes, an unfortunate consequence us that there are alot of people who will come out of the woodwork to try to get their cut. And there's also a major backlash when someone's leadership decisions lead to the deaths of others. You'll have widows, orphans, siblings, and parents, plus politicians and business leaders looking for reparations. Its not unreasonable to think that a local lord or temple might step in on behalf of the survivors and demand that the PC's make it right.

[With a box]

Entire groups have mutinied over such trivial things as receiving low-quality tea, dreary weather, too many night shifts, and disrespectful overseers. I think it's fair to say that seeing half of your coworkers torn apart by supernatural creatures is on the extreme end of unpleasant work environments.

Sure, they were mercenaries, but at that pay rate, most of them were probably envisioning something more along the lines of night security guard than tunnel rat clearing out booby-trapped Viet Cong bunkers.

It's not punishment to play out the consequences of depleting a town of 10% of its men of marrying age. You can be sure that an event of this magnitude would be talked about for decades in the surrounding region. The fact that the PC's made off with a lot of cash, and everyone knows it, is only going to make it worse.

In the real world, when people make their fortunes, an unfortunate consequence us that there are alot of people who will come out of the woodwork to try to get their cut. And there's also a major backlash when someone's leadership decisions lead to the deaths of others. You'll have widows, orphans, siblings, and parents, plus politicians and business leaders looking for reparations. Its not unreasonable to think that a local lord or temple might step in on behalf of the survivors and demand that the PC's make it right.

it was 1/3(5 dead , 15 hired), but I think that's right.

P.S is there a problem that can't solved with infinite warrior cannon fodders?

[Sith_Happens]

But yeah, if definitely happens. When it does, we give those people **** for whining too. Makes the rest of us look bad.

Also keep in mind that mercenaries fight for money rather than for a cause, and it's hard to get paid or spend the money you already have when you're dead. So the bar for their ability to hold morale is that much lower.


And there's also a major backlash when someone's leadership decisions lead to the deaths of others. You'll have widows, orphans, siblings, and parents, plus politicians and business leaders looking for reparations. Its not unreasonable to think that a local lord or temple might step in on behalf of the survivors and demand that the PC's make it right.

That's what bribing the mercenaries' boss to cover up the casualties is for.:smallwink:


P.S is there a problem that can't solved with infinite warrior cannon fodders?

Damage reduction.:smalltongue:

[Maglubiyet]

That's what bribing the mercenaries' boss to cover up the casualties is for.:smallwink:
:

Absolutely.

I knew we should've never hired to those Bogwyn brothers -- they were always up to no good. Convinced their entire squad to abscond with the client's money and head for the southern borderlands. Even got the normally trustworthy Ashward and little Jorgen to go along with their scheme. Their poor mothers are just sick about it.

Fortunately these clients don't blame us. These are men of learning and know there's a bad apple in every barrel. They even agreed to pay the widows...er, the wives their full share.

[Tvtyrant]

If you don't want to play this way you could simply have the dungeon kill the next set of mercs. Now they are out money and get no benefits.