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Mookuh
2007-04-11, 05:55 AM
Greetings, everyone.

We (my local gaming circle) have recently decided to start a new D&D campaign, and have also decided that we'll all play mounted characters.
One of us wanted to play a mounted archer, hence we looked at some of the weapons in the PHB 3.5, where something odd was discovered:
In the description of the Longbow, it says it's too unwieldy to use while mounted, which is perfectly ok.
However, in the description of the Composite Longbow, it says: "You can use a Composite Longbow while mounted"
I thought "Maybe it's more curved, therefore smaller, and therefore usable while on horseback", but no dice: on the picture, it's bigger and bulkier.
So: Why can you use a Comp. Longbow while mounted? Is it an error in the book? Am I overlooking something?
Thanks for your replies (and I hope I didn't violate any copyright laws here :smallwink: )

Dhavaer
2007-04-11, 06:17 AM
Composite longbows bend differently, and the grip can be placed lower, allowing it to be used on horseback. At least, I think that's how it works. I don't know where I got it from.
But they definately bend differently.

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 06:21 AM
the pictures of weapons found in the PHB definitely need to be taken with a grain of salt, and some of them are flatly impossible.

As far as a composite longbow, I'm assuming that they were thinking of a Japanese Yumi, which was used from horse back and fits both the construction and strength description in the PHB. However, it does not match the illustration very well.

caden_varn
2007-04-11, 06:24 AM
Well - I believe that the Japanese did use an assymetric longbow, where the grip is based about a third the length of the bow instead of in the middle. This could be used on horseback (not too sure it was to any real extent though), so this may be the source of the composite longbow's ability.

I'd say this may be a typo though. Personally I'd probably house-rule it as unusable on horseback, or maybe make it an exotic weapon variant, depending on how grumpy I was feeling when the player asked me.

Adlan
2007-04-11, 06:46 AM
It is entirely possible to use a longbow from a horse, you just won't be able to bring the bow over the side of the horse. The Japanese got around this, as has been mentiond before, by making Asymetric Longbows, So if you character finds a specially designed Longbow, or if he has ranks in Craft Bows or profession Bowyer, he could make one, but other than that, I think it shouldn't be possible to use one.

I'd say it was an oversight in the rules.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-11, 06:56 AM
The composite bow is more of an asian invention (Crossbows on the other hand were composite in asia and europe), especially the bone shortbows. The Composite longbow is probably based of a Daikyu since non-Japanese horse archers (at least mongol ones) used shortbows. Why a generic fantasy weapon has an ability based of a specific culture is beyond me however.

I'd houserule a special cavalry bow that costs a bit more but has the same stats, or just say that's what the Composite longbow already is. Basically you want a shortbow or a Daikyu (both of which tended to be composite) for horseback archery.

Complete Warrior has a greatbow (the literal translation of Daikyu) and an asymetrical picture but I find that weapon a bit of a dubious existance myself.

Mookuh
2007-04-11, 07:16 AM
Plenty of good replies in a very short time, awesome :)

I can see how it makes sense that the ability to use a comp. Longbow from horseback might base from reallife cultures.

However, what is a bit irritating to the picture is game balance. There is no reason to use a comp. shortbow over a respective longbow then, besides for style ;)
The comp. longbow has a longer range and better damage, the only advantages of the shortbow being a 25gp lower price and a 1lb safe in weight, which isn't impressive at all.

I'm not DMing that campaign, so it'll be up to my friend whether that bow will be usable from horseback or not.

storybookknight
2007-04-11, 09:30 AM
No reason at all? Remember, you can add strength damage to properly built composite weapons. A composite [+1 strength] shortbow does exactly the same average damage as a longbow, and you can also use it ahorse.

Pocket lint
2007-04-11, 09:31 AM
So give the composite longbow an extra -2 penalty when used from horseback?

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 04:08 PM
It might also be a confusion between "composite" bow and "compound" bow, which I seem to remember are not the same. The former is about the materials, while the second refers to the shape of the recurve. Or something, it's a bit fuzzy.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-11, 04:18 PM
Daikyu - asymmetric greatbow, as mentioned. I'd say shortbows only without EWP: Strangely shaped bow though.

Adlan
2007-04-11, 04:22 PM
Composite refers to the material used, which is unlike a homogenous material such as oak or ash, and has at least 2 layers (Yew Heart and Sap wood, Bone and sinew, Metal and wood). The multiple layers of materials are used to create a better means of storing energy, increasing the draw weight of the bow as well incidently.

Compound Bows refer to bows which, as a traditional archer, I refer to as traing wheels.
These work on the some principle I don't understand using maths, physics and black magic. The wiki on them is pretty good though

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 04:30 PM
No reason at all? Remember, you can add strength damage to properly built composite weapons. A composite [+1 strength] shortbow does exactly the same average damage as a longbow, and you can also use it ahorse.

Um, the comparison was between a composite shortbow and a respective, i.e., composite longbow. This is pretty clearly the case when you look at what was stated as a difference: 25 gp difference in price (regular longbow and comp. shortbow are the same price, comp. longbow is 25gp more.)

And there is not much reason to use a composite shortbow over a composite longbow, the strength bonus is slightly more expensive on a longbow but is still dwarfed by the cost of making the bow masterwork or magical most of the time.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 04:35 PM
Yeah, as I find out compound bows aren't what I was thinking of. They're those crazy modern things with the wheels and pulleys and things, that many bowhunters use.

I was thinking of something more like a recurve bow, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurve_bow) which a Yumi...err, sort of is.

levi
2007-04-11, 04:48 PM
One of the best things you can do for your use of weapons in DnD is to ignore the illustrations in the PHB. Given what it says about their abilities in the descriptive text, I'd assume the composite longbow is either smaller than a usual longbow (composites are usually smaller, but the illustrations don't reflect this), or of an asymetric design as used by the Japanese.

Perhaps you should ask the people in the "real world armor and weapons" thread about this. They seem to have a vast amount of knowledge about this sort of thing.


It might also be a confusion between "composite" bow and "compound" bow, which I seem to remember are not the same. The former is about the materials, while the second refers to the shape of the recurve. Or something, it's a bit fuzzy.

Actually, a composite bow is made of several types of materials so that it can have a stiffer pull and to precisely tune where and how much it bends when drawn. A compound bow is a modern invention that uses a system of pullies to allow drawing the bow with less bending of the bow itself per pound of pull. Compound bows are usually made of fiberglass.

A seperate issue is nonrecurve (single curve) verses recurve bows. The former is shaped something like the letter D. It gets more curved as you draw back on the string. The latter is a more complex shape. It has a shallow curve in the middle and curves backwards at each end. When you draw back the string, you straighten these backward curves rather than make the middle curve tighter. I'm not entirely sure what the advantage is.

Wooden bows can be single curved or recurved. Composite bows are usually (always?) recurved. A compound bow is single curved. From what I know about how they work, a recurve compound bow wouldn't work.

Adlan
2007-04-11, 05:00 PM
It is to do with how the String pulls away from the bow, a recurve bow has a much smoother release because the string touchs the bow at more than one point, where as a single curve bow dosn't.

I'm not entirely sure why, it might be the above reason, but a Recurve has more Cast (energy transferrd to the arrow) per lb draw weight than a longbow. Of course a compund has the most Cast per lb. It may be the energy is wasted in vibrations caused by the smoothness of the release.

Interestingly the Famous english D curve longbow (D curve for the shape of the bow stave cross section, not the shape of the bow when strung) is the worst design in Cast for draw weight, a 40lb recurve has more cast than a 50lb longbow, however it is sucessful because it is the simplest to make, and can very easily be made to massivly high draw weights.

Fhaolan
2007-04-11, 05:23 PM
Wooden bows can be single curved or recurved. Composite bows are usually (always?) recurved.

You technically can make a recurve non-composite bow, but it's *very* difficult and definately not worth the effort. It's just a lot easier to make a composite recurve.

Re: Adlan: There's worse than the D curve longbow for that. The flatbow's even simpler to make, has a worse cast, and tends to deteriorate fast.

Pocket lint
2007-04-12, 01:55 AM
A recurve bow essentially includes a "lever" in its design which gives you extra leverage to counteract the pull of the bow at full draw. The point during the draw where it's toughest to pull is just at the beginning; after that, the leverage reduces the necessary force. If you were to compare energy vs initial draw strength, a longbow would fare a lot better.

There's another characteristic of bows which doesn't see play use that often: longevity. Bows have a limited lifespan (especially those mishandled by adventurers), and yew longbows fare very well there. I'm also not sure if you can make recurve bows that are as strong as longbows - there are longbows with 150# draw strength recovered from a shipwreck.

I'd count flatbows as "short bows" under D&D rules. Simple and fairly cheap to make, good for hunting, but aren't strong enough for combat use.

By the way, it's a little odd that D&D doesn't include any other kind of arrow than the "standard" type. You'd think having bodkin and broadhead arrows available would be interesting...

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-12, 02:15 AM
The other arrow types are in RotW

Kantolin
2007-04-12, 02:33 AM
However, what is a bit irritating to the picture is game balance. There is no reason to use a comp. shortbow over a respective longbow then, besides for style ;)
Well, a few classes aren't proficient in Longbows but are in crossbows. Rogues come to mind. Kinda like how hide is only useful on a druid.

Adlan
2007-04-12, 04:59 AM
I'm shifting my part of the discussion over to R/L weapons thread, because it fits better there. I've got some comments/Questions for flohan and pocket lint.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-12, 11:29 AM
By the way, it's a little odd that D&D doesn't include any other kind of arrow than the "standard" type. You'd think having bodkin and broadhead arrows available would be interesting...

In my games, I rule that special arrowheads count as masterwork items, however they have the following bonuses:

Bodkin arrowheads give +1 to hit vs. medium and heavy armors and also versus any creature with Natural armor greater than +4. They are -1 to damage in all cases.

Broadhead arrowheads are +1 to damage but -1 to hit. They also reduce range by 25%

I also rule that longbows (regular or composite) have a penalty of -4 to hit if shot from horseback (to show the difficulties on moving it across the neck of the horse). Otherwise, what's the advantage of the shortbow?

Adlan
2007-04-12, 02:56 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/Adlan/Image032.jpg

So you don't look like this, thats why you have a shortbow

Matthew
2007-04-12, 06:00 PM
It's worth pointing out that the D&D Long Bow isn't necessarily the English War Bow, that might well be represented by the Great Bow. Dungeons & Dragons chooses some odd moments to be 'realistic'. It's not like you suffer any penalties for using a Great Sword whilst mounted.

The whole Composite Long Bow thing is a Yumi type holdover from (A)D&D, where you could buy Composite Long Bows that could be used from Horseback, but they cost twice that of a normal Composite Bow (Player's Option: Combat and Tactics).

Bows are perhaps the single worst mechanically designed weapon in the game and the only one to require its own Craft Skill.

Norsesmithy
2007-04-12, 09:01 PM
Also worth pointing out that the abominable PHB illustrations are no reason why you shouldn't do the reasonable thing and assume that a composite bow would be smaller than its equivalent self bow.

As for craft bowmaking, I see no reason why you should not houserule it away and instead just use craft weaponsmithing.