Hoplite?

[Gwendol]

So, what's the best way to make a spartan hoplite? BM fighter using the protector and gwf styles, picking up the polearm master and sentinel feats? He carries a shortsword for back-up.

[WickerNipple]

So, what's the best way to make a spartan hoplite? BM fighter using the protector and gwf styles, picking up the polearm master and sentinel feats? He carries a shortsword for back-up.

A hoplite was defined by his shield, that's where the word comes from - ὅπλον

The closest you're going to come in D&D would be someone with a spear and Shield Mastery. Sentinel would make sense, but D&D doesn't allow reach weapons to be used one handed so the concept rather falls apart there.

[mephnick]

Hoplites used short spears anyway, didn't they? So a regular spear, shield master and non-heavy armour should pretty much do it.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, well if you specifically make a hoplite, that is kind of a given. I've previously used a refluffed trident as hoplite spear.

Hm. Yeah, shield master makes sense, as does sentinel. Probably makes more sense to use duelist as well. Looks like you could do quite cool things with a shield unit using only those two feats. Anyone attacking an enemy in the wall will eat reaction attacks, attack with disadvantage, and risk getting shoved the following round. Also, any one of the others in the line has a chance to trip the attacker (using a BM maneuver). Need to add a line of archers in the back row, in case enemies are beyond thrown spear range.

[Gwendol]

Breastplate armor is likely close enough. And a heavy shield of course.

[WickerNipple]

Hoplites used short spears anyway, didn't they? So a regular spear, shield master and non-heavy armour should pretty much do it.

Depending on the era in question you'd be looking at a spear between 8ft and 14ft. Not exactly short in my opinion. An 8ft spear when used in attack position could easily reach a target 5ft away which would be the definition of a reach weapon in D&D's terms.

The later longer spears didn't use the shield and spear in combo in the same way you'd think of it, so it's best to consider the earlier spear. Still: plenty long for Reach.

[Felvion]

A hoplite was defined by his shield, that's where the word comes from - ὅπλον


I'm 99% sure this word (ὅπλον) means weapon, not shield.

[JAL_1138]

Thus Sayeth The Wikipedia:
The word hoplite (Greek: ὁπλίτης hoplitēs; pl. ὁπλῖται hoplitai) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla ὅπλα), the type of shield used by the soldiers. There is however considerable debate about this as the shield was more commonly known as an aspis.

Although, as a word, hopla could also denote the soldiers' weapons or even their full armament.[2] In later usage, the term hoplite is used to denote any armored infantry such as the Swiss mercenaries during the Burgundian Wars (1474–1477).

"With your shield or on it."

[Malifice]

Fighter with shield, spear and the Protection style. Each hoplite uses his reaction to defend (impose disadvantage on attacks against) the man next to him.

[Easy_Lee]

Fighter with shield, spear and the Protection style. Each hoplite uses his reaction to defend (impose disadvantage on attacks against) the man next to him.

I'd say this is best. You could further improve it by taking the shield mastery and sentinel feats for individual hoplites. Medium armor would yield a respectable AC, though heavy would be ideal.

[Rush]

Thus Sayeth The Wikipedia:

"With your shield or on it."

It means generally a tool or implement of some sort, but is used a lot (I don't know if it's most commonly, I haven't studied that much Greek) to refer to arms, implements or tools of war. So yeah, it means weapons, but the Attic dialect also uses it in specific reference to the large shields born by the men-at-arms who took their title from those shields.

But yeah. Versatile word. You're both right.

[BootStrapTommy]

Sentinel would make sense, but D&D doesn't allow reach weapons to be used one handed so the concept rather falls apart there.Sentinel doesn't require reach. Polearm Mastery does (though why Polearm Master works for quarterstaff, which isn't reach, but not spear is ridiculous/potentially an oversight)

Honestly, since Polearm Master works for quarterstaff, which isn't reach, it easily should work for a spear. I'd house rule that.

Variant Human, BM Fighter, Shield Master, Protection, and later maybe ever Sentinel (or PM if your DM house rules it). Focus on formation fighting. Useful if you, say, hug a rogue or something (since rogues are good formation fighters as well, oddly).

Not too optimized, but gets the flavor and a cool team player.

[Strill]

Take Polearm Master, use a Quarterstaff + Shield, and just say it's a spear. Then take the Sentinel Feat.

[Strill]

Fighter with shield, spear and the Protection style. Each hoplite uses his reaction to defend (impose disadvantage on attacks against) the man next to him.

Protection style is way too weak to take. You only block one attack, you have no idea whether it would've just missed anyway, and you can't even use it if you're not standing next to an ally. It has much too stringent requirements and has a much too negligible effect to waste your reaction on.

Sentinel allows you to support your group and protect your allies while at the same time deal a substantial amount of damage. It does everything Protection Style does, and better.

[Malifice]

Protection style is way too weak to take. You only block one attack, you have no idea whether it would've just missed anyway, and you can't even use it if you're not standing next to an ally. It has much too stringent requirements and has a much too negligible effect to waste your reaction on.

What do you mean you have no idea if it would have missed anyway? Disadvantage is huge. Someone else has done the maths, but its effectively a -5 to an attack roll against an ally. It also reduces the chance of your ally being hit with a Crit from 1/20 to 1/400.

We're not arguing about if its strong or weak either, just what would best represent hoplite fighting techniques and the whole 'using your shield to protect the man to your left' is the key principle of hoplite tactics and doctrine.

That sounds like protection style to me.

As a foot note, for those of you that like homebrew, I include the following feat in my campaigns:

Aegis
Prerequisite: Protection fighting style
Benefit: You can activate your protection fighting style once per round without using your reaction. Additionally, all attacks directed at an ally protected by you using your protection fighting style are made at disadvantage till the start of your next turn.


Sentinel allows you to support your group and protect your allies while at the same time deal a substantial amount of damage. It does everything Protection Style does, and better.

A feat is stronger than a fighting style (fighting styles being effectively half the value of a feat as all classes that get a fighting style, also get another class feature at the same level). Also, some campaigns wont use variant human, so feats dont come online till 4th level, and I dont think too many rank and file hoplite warriors are 4th level+

[Strill]

What do you mean you have no idea if it would have missed anyway? Disadvantage is huge. Someone else has done the maths, but its effectively a -5 to an attack roll against an ally. It also reduces the chance of your ally being hit with a Crit from 1/20 to 1/400.Please don't misquote people. Advantage/Disadvantage is only a +/-5 if you succeed on a natural 11+. In any other case, it's worth less.

And when I say you have no idea whether it would've missed anyway, I mean that there could be four or five incoming enemy attacks. You choose one to apply disadvantage to, but the first roll is a 2, which means it doesn't matter what the other roll is - it would've missed anyway. Giving it disadvantage accomplished nothing.


As a foot note, for those of you that like homebrew, I include the following feat in my campaigns:

Aegis
Prerequisite: Protection fighting style
Benefit: You can activate your protection fighting style once per round without using your reaction. Additionally, all attacks directed at an ally protected by you using your protection fighting style are made at disadvantage till the start of your next turn.This is more in line with Sentinel.

[Malifice]

Please don't misquote people. Advantage/Disadvantage is only a +/-5 if you succeed on a natural 11+. In any other case, it's worth less.

If you can get your AC up to where you can only be hit on a natural 20, its worth considerably more.

Assume a hoplite panopoly (breastplate, full helm, leg and arm greaves) is in half plate, give them +2 dex and shield.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/088/6/4/spartan_hoplite_with_armor_by_gringo4ninja-d3bo1lw.jpg


AC 19 isnt bad at all for 1st level Fighters. Effectively any force with an equal or lower number of troops has disadvantage on attack rolls against the hoplites (thanks to protection style and a single attack per round) and that's quite a hard AC to hit for similarly skilled (i.e. low level) troops (who wouldn't ordinarily be getting more than +5 to hit).

They need a 14+ to hit (base) 35% base chance. Odds of doing that with disadvantage to the attack roll comes up closer to 20%. The hoplite unit takes 15% less DPR per round, with a 2000 percent reduction in the % of critical hits delivered (from a rate of 1/20 to 1/400).

Its mathematically around 3 times better than the defense fighting style (-5% chance to hit) at 1st level.

Remember - the guys in the second rank can use protection on the guys in the front rank; and those guys in the front rank can either save their reactions for AoO or double up with their reactions and shield a hoplite on either side of them a second time. Even higher level foes with multiattack or TWF will get disadvantage on all attacks - remember, the fighting style says:

Protection
When a creature you can see attacks a target other
than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your
reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You
must be wielding a shield.

Meaning the whole back rank can protect the front rank, in addition to the front rank being able to use it on others in the front rank.


And when I say you have no idea whether it would've missed anyway, I mean that there could be four or five incoming enemy attacks. You choose one to apply disadvantage to, but the first roll is a 2, which means it doesn't matter what the other roll is - it would've missed anyway. Giving it disadvantage accomplished nothing.

There is no 'first roll'. You roll both d20 at the same time.

[Strill]

There is no 'first roll'. You roll both d20 at the same time.It's called marginal benefit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility). If you don't use the ability, the target rolls once. If you do use the ability, the target rolls twice. When you analyze the effects of Disadvantage, you compare the results with disadvantage to the results without disadvantage.

Say, for example, the target has a 50% chance to hit. This is the best case for Disadvantage. That means that 50% of the time, the first die will fail anyway, which means Disadvantage accomplishes nothing. On the remaining 50% of cases where the first die succeeds, the second die will fail 50% of the time. That means that Protection style will only actually block an attack 25% of the time, and that's in the best case. An ability that's only 25% effective at blocking attacks, which you also have to be near an ally to use, is not one I find worthwhile.

[Malifice]

It's called marginal benefit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility). If you don't use the ability, the target rolls once. If you do use the ability, the target rolls twice. When you analyze the effects of Disadvantage, you compare the results with disadvantage to the results without disadvantage.

Say, for example, the target has a 50% chance to hit. This is the best case for Disadvantage. That means that 50% of the time, the first die will fail anyway, which means Disadvantage accomplishes nothing. On the remaining 50% of cases where the first die succeeds, the second die will fail 50% of the time. That means that Protection style will only actually block an attack 25% of the time, and that's in the best case. An ability that's only 25% effective at blocking attacks, which you also have to be near an ally to use, is not one I find worthwhile.

Actually, disadvantage is better when you can only be hit on a natural 20. It turns a 5 percent chance of getting hit into a 0.025 percent chance. It's literally a 2000 percent improvement in that case instead of a 25 percent improvement at the 11+ range.

And I would take protections 25 percent of attacks blocked over defence fighting styles flat 5 percent of all attacks blocked.

The trick is the opportunity cost (uses your reaction) and the fact it can only be used v 1 attack on an ally.

Seeing as both of these disadvantages are mitigated by fighting in a tightly packed formation where everyone has the same protection fighting style, it's a no brainer for shield infantry to use.

A single hoplite in the middle of the front rank has up to 3 allies in the rear rank to protect him, and 2 more on either side. Combining with sentinel is just gravy, as he could rely on his mates behind him to impose disadvantage on the attacks of the bloke he is fighting, while meanwhile stopping an engaged foe from attacking anyone else.

Although we wouldn't want to give our standard hoplites the sentinel feat seeing as they cant get the benefits of the free attack on anything other than the enemy disengaging.

I don't see sentinel as worth it for massed infantry.

[Kiero]

Depending on the era in question you'd be looking at a spear between 8ft and 14ft. Not exactly short in my opinion. An 8ft spear when used in attack position could easily reach a target 5ft away which would be the definition of a reach weapon in D&D's terms.

The later longer spears didn't use the shield and spear in combo in the same way you'd think of it, so it's best to consider the earlier spear. Still: plenty long for Reach.

The doru was an 8ft spear. Hoplites only ever used the doru (I don't think the Spartans ever organised a Macedonian-style phalanx). It was counter-weighted and used one-handed, with a very large shield.

A 14ft "spear" was the sarissa, which was a pike. (Macedonian-style) Phalangites used a pike, 14ft was the shortest of them, they went anywhere up to 21ft. These were used two-handed, but with a small shield strapped to the upper arm/shoulder.

[WickerNipple]

The doru was an 8ft spear. Hoplites only ever used the doru (I don't think the Spartans ever organised a Macedonian-style phalanx). It was counter-weighted and used one-handed, with a very large shield.

A 14ft "spear" was the sarissa, which was a pike. (Macedonian-style) Phalangites used a pike, 14ft was the shortest of them, they went anywhere up to 21ft. These were used two-handed, but with a small shield strapped to the upper arm/shoulder.

Ya, I was trying to be a little more general for the sake of things. I don't think the spartans ever used the sarissa, but I believe lots of greeks used the term hoplite even into the sarissa period.

The shield they used with the sarissa was worn strapped/suspended from the neck, at least according to the instructor the one time I got to try it out. Seriously awkward piece of kit, though it worked well enough in formation. The doru kit was a lot more fun.

[Gwendol]

I don't see much downside in using the protection style for a formation-fighting unit. It will allow them to fight against foes several levels above them.


Getting caught by area of effect spells will pose a risk though. The spartans were lucky not to have to face casters ;-)

[Kiero]

Ya, I was trying to be a little more general for the sake of things. I don't think the spartans ever used the sarissa, but I believe lots of greeks used the term hoplite even into the sarissa period.

The shield they used with the sarissa was worn strapped/suspended from the neck, at least according to the instructor the one time I got to try it out. Seriously awkward piece of kit, though it worked well enough in formation. The doru kit was a lot more fun.

Well, the ancient writers who've survived weren't really consistent in their terminology on a lot of things! :smalltongue:

For the sake of our own sanity, it's easier to call spearmen-with-aspis hoplites and pikemen-with-small-shields phalangites.

Yeah, pikes are a formation-only weapon. Not sure you could do anything with that in a general melee.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Getting caught by area of effect spells will pose a risk though. The spartans were lucky not to have to face casters ;-)

That's where the shield master feat comes in. Those that save take no damage.

[Malifice]

That's where the shield master feat comes in. Those that save take no damage.

Also proficiency in athletics for kicking people down wells with the 'shove' action.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTH7gumQMh1PgZQwerIfE2AXVVEvqUhe-Og3yAd9Ap8wSyZCcYf

[Gwendol]

Or use the shield for shoving: "Spartans.... Push!"

[Malifice]

Or use the shield for shoving: "Spartans.... Push!"

I always thought 300 was a little homoerotic. Now im sure of it!

[Gwendol]

Well, it's about spartans after all.

[No brains]

I wonder if it is possible to make just 'a' good hoplite as they're specifically known for acting as a team.

Have you considered using a modified mob of humans? Granted the idea with a phalanx is that things don't get subsumed like with a swarm, but having all hoplites moving and acting as one helps to give the impression of discipline.

Another idea for a hoplite specifically adapted to D&D is to have them be some tunnel-dwelling race like dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, or goblins. A big weakness for a phalanx in D&D is fireball and other AoE spells as well as the ability to just fly over a blocked passage. In narrow tunnels, AoEs may never be justified and there is no way around or above the formation.

[Gwendol]

Shield master helps with AoE's.

[LordVonDerp]

Hoplites used short spears anyway, didn't they? So a regular spear, shield master and non-heavy armour should pretty much do it.

Nope. They were around 10 feet long.

[Gwendol]

The doru was an 8ft spear. Hoplites only ever used the doru (I don't think the Spartans ever organised a Macedonian-style phalanx). It was counter-weighted and used one-handed, with a very large shield.

A 14ft "spear" was the sarissa, which was a pike. (Macedonian-style) Phalangites used a pike, 14ft was the shortest of them, they went anywhere up to 21ft. These were used two-handed, but with a small shield strapped to the upper arm/shoulder.

The spears used has been outlined in the thread already. Slightly less than 10' actually.

[Kerilstrasz]

Nothing to add as much clarify the term "Hoplite"

Hoplite is the one carries a "hoplon"
Hoplon ('Οπλο in Greek), is synonym to weapon.
Hoplismos (New age Greek word, deriving from Hoplon) means Weaponry.

A spartan Hoplite used both his spear & shield to attack/bash etc.. so.. all his gear were consider "Hoplon" (Hoplismos).
Now.. if you want to be more specific, He had his:
- armor (multylayer breastplate of leather, acting as an early cevlar - metal breastplates were utlized by Athinean Hoplites)
- sword (Xiphos - pronounced KsEphos - best way to discribe it in D&D temrs.. look of a shortshord with 3,5 schimitar stats)
- Spear (Doru - pronoynced Thorie, TH as in THat or They - Which was 1hand reach weapon & also balnced to be thrown)
- shield (Aspis - Which was always circular, and wooden, with outer(face) layer of bronze and inside layer of leather, carrying tribe or city symbol)
- bronze greaves and arm guards, full face helmet & a heavy woolen cloak.

All of the above was his weaponry (Hoplismos or Hoplon) thus this name.. Hoplite

[PoeticDwarf]

A hoplite was defined by his shield, that's where the word comes from - ὅπλον

The closest you're going to come in D&D would be someone with a spear and Shield Mastery. Sentinel would make sense, but D&D doesn't allow reach weapons to be used one handed so the concept rather falls apart there.

So you want to go barbarian :smallsmile:

Wait, WHAT