How to Build the Recycle the Corpses Guy (Necromancer Build)

[Leathros]

So I've seen a few feats and spells that empower the undead you can control, but I'm not sure if it's profitable, tho very interesting, rolisticaly speaking, to play a Wizard/Cleric/SomethingI'mMissing character, that summons hordes of undead to fight for him, while he stays at the back and enjoys the show, what do you guys think?

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necromancer[Heroes of Horror](my preferred method) and Death Master[Dragon Magazine Compendium] are the 2 you are missing.

Personally I have found it more efficient to have my cohort be the corpsecrafter while I be the commander. Of the corpsecrafter feats only Corpsecrafter and Destructive Retribution stood out to me and the second only if I have tons of disposable corpses.

Another thing to note is that stock undead (skeletons) gradually become less effective. At low level most corpses are worthwhile. At low-mid level only hardy(lots of HD) corpses remain useful. At mid level hardy corpses are mere meat shields unless they have something extra (like Hydra's full attack as a standard action). At mid-high level stock undead are no longer useful however the Animate Dread Warrior[Unapprochable East] spell picks up the slack by retaining the class levels of the corpses.

Yet another thing to note is that controlling lots of individual undead does slow down combat. I suggest a few strong undead over a lot of weak undead. Have a horde but keep it off the battle grid.

[Leathros]

Alright, so it's pretty much summon a **** ton of meat shields that will fire arrows or charge with shields, right? Or is there any way to summon special undead, say, casters, or Deathguards, or something like that? When you say your cohort, you mean take the leadership feat, right?

[gorfnab]

Here is some light reading that may clear some things up:
Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)
Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733)

[OldTrees1]

Alright, so it's pretty much summon a **** ton of meat shields that will fire arrows or charge with shields, right? Or is there any way to summon special undead, say, casters, or Deathguards, or something like that? When you say your cohort, you mean take the leadership feat, right?

Yes
Standard undead (skeletons) are just meat shields. They are low accuracy low damage minions (even with two handed weapons).

It is notably hard to gain service of special undead. Rebuke Undead (Cleric, Dread Necromancer, or Death Master) can control a tiny amount and requires you to be much higher level than them. Eventually you will get the Animate Dread Warrior spell which helps out a lot.

I take the Leadership feat as a Necromancer. Although I do not use it to abuse the Action Economy (I don't bring my cohort on adventures).

[Karl Aegis]

Be a cleric. Rob some graves. Get Fire Giant minions. You don't need to have a special build for this. It's one of the perks of being a cleric.

[Leathros]

So how exactly do you get undead to follow you? By Rebuke, By Summon Undead, and any other way?

[Leathros]

Animate Dead too, okay. So can someone give me a lil explain of how it works? Got a bit mixed up with the CL and the HD of the monsters. You apply the Zombie, or Skeleton Template to whichever base creature you Animated, and you cannot control highter than 4HD/CL monsters, nor more than 2 times your CL quantity?

Also, does Augmented Summoning and Corpsecrafter Stack? Corpsecrafter says "undead you raise or create" does Summon Undead counts as such?

[lsfreak]

Most spells that make undead give you control - animate dead has a pool of control of 4HD per CL, summon undead they just automatically obey you like any other summoned creature. Command undead just lets you control them, provided you keep casting the spell before as it runs out. Rebuking gives you a pool of control similar to animate dead, of up to your level worth of HD.

Animate dead has two limits - the number of HD you can create with a single casting, and the number you can control altogether. The limit per casting is 2HD/CL, which could be in one go to get one really powerful undead, or up two twice as many human skeletons as your CL, or a combination, provided you don't go over the limit with a single casting (which also means you can't have an undead with more HD than twice you HD, because of this limit). The total control is 4HD/CL.

Summon Undead is summoning them, which is not raising or creating them. So Augment Summoning works for Summon Undead, but Corpsecrafter shouldn't.

[Coidzor]

If you want to start to see profitability combine Fabricate and Hardening with Haunt Shift and whatever materials you happen to have around or want to conjure such as Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron. Heck, you could even use Command Undead instead of Animate Dead to get the base minion.

That'll get you something with, potentially, an awful lot of Hardness that will beat face for you and avoid many of the social difficulties of necromancing in public.

Throw on some +Cha items or have the undead minion carry a certain number of Holy Arrows to season the abilities conferred by Haunt Shift to your minion, too.

You'd have to review the rules on Haunting Presences in Libris Mortis(which is where Haunt Shift is found, too), for the full details, though, since I can't remember if destroying the object releases the undead minion or destroys it.

Probably most efficient to just use a few low HD undead to pilot Haunt Shift'd animated objects as a supplement to your more beefy skeletons or zombie dragons or dread warriors.


Most spells that make undead give you control - animate dead has a pool of control of 4HD per CL, summon undead they just automatically obey you like any other summoned creature. Command undead just lets you control them, provided you keep casting the spell before as it runs out. Rebuking gives you a pool of control similar to animate dead, of up to your level worth of HD.

Animate dead has two limits - the number of HD you can create with a single casting, and the number you can control altogether. The limit per casting is 2HD/CL, which could be in one go to get one really powerful undead, or up two twice as many human skeletons as your CL, or a combination, provided you don't go over the limit with a single casting (which also means you can't have an undead with more HD than twice you HD, because of this limit). The total control is 4HD/CL.

Summon Undead is summoning them, which is not raising or creating them. So Augment Summoning works for Summon Undead, but Corpsecrafter shouldn't.

And Desecrate allows you to animate as many undead as your total control pool in one casting. Combine that with the Deathbound Domain's granted power and you can animate and control 6HD/CL in one casting, but since you're past the cap, you'll be rather inconvenienced by casting it again unless you have the undead that will become uncontrolled stashed doing guard duty or where you can conveniently wrangle them with Command Undead... or they've been destroyed.

Also Desecrate gives some extra HP per HD for undead you animate or create in there, and some more if there's an altar to your necromancing character's deity or higher power you're aligned with. :smallbiggrin: Great fun for the Necromancer with a mind for profitability and wringing the most benefit from the least amount of onyx.


So how exactly do you get undead to follow you? By Rebuke, By Summon Undead, and any other way?

The feat Undead Leadership from Libris Mortis gets you a cohort that's undead and followers that are as well.

Rebuking is a great way to get some undead, especially an undead that either creates spawn from those it slays or that rebukes undead in its own right, like a Brain in a Jar.

Summoning Undead is most useful at low levels or in a pinch where you need to apply more beatsticks or blockers in an area than your minions that you had ready on hand can accomodate. This is generally going to be a little bit unusual as far as circumstances go after level 10 or so, IIRC, so past that point you don't have to really worry about it.

Animate Dead(Player's Handbook) is the big spell for undead minions, it gives you Skeletons(generally superior due to action economy, but generally for things that had a bunch of attacks to begin with, such as from natural weapons), Zombies(Basically best for things that only had one attack to begin with, like basic Ogres or Rhinoceroseses), Skeleton(Skeletal?) Dragons, Zombie Dragons(the bomb when combined with Awaken Undead), Bloodhulks(not great, but when all you can get ahold of are human commoner bodies or something equally dinky, you can make respectable meatshields), and Necrosis Carnexes(mostly just useful as a way to heal your undead minions with their negative energy at-will that heals undead ability).

Command Undead(Player's Handbook) is great for stealing someone else's mindless undead minions and making use of whatever feral/naturally occurring mindless undead you encounter.

Animate Dread Warrior is a spell that lets you turn any character with class levels you encounter into a loyal, mostly reliable(just don't use too many words) minion that's also really stupid. It's from Unapproachable East.

Create Undead and its greater version aren't much to write home about, since you have to finagle control over the resultant undead with either Rebuking or negotiation. If you're good at diplomacy, though, or have someone in the party good at it, and/or have a DM who has a thing for henchmen, you can use this to make your own henchmen, I suppose. With splat support I think there's some way to apply some potentially useful templates to downed allies in lieu of resurrecting them at higher levels, but generally that's not that great of an option.

Of course, if you have the right character and game, then there are some undead you can negotiate with the same way that any other villainous type is able to get some undead types to work for them without magically controlling them 24/7.

[Vizzerdrix]

If you need to get your hands on corpses to recycle, Spined Devils and Nabassu are marked off in my notes as acceptable undead fodder. I don't quite remember why though. It has been a while since I played a necro.

[Grek]

Here's my preferred undead raising build:

Level 1: Human Cleric (Domains Deathbound and Fire); Feats: Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic Fell Animate.
Level 2: Cleric 2
Level 3: Enhanced Summoning Conjurer (Wizard Variant from UA); Feat: Spell Focus Conjuration.
Level 4 onwards: Master of Shrouds

At level 1, you're throwing most of your Rebuking charges into powering up a single spell with Divine Fell Animate. You use it as a coup de gras to turn a downed enemy into your undead minion without paying money for it or being a 5th level character. You can raise stuff with up to 3 HD, so your ideal raising targets would be 1st level warriors, black bears and crocodiles. You may be asking why you took the Fire Domain. This is because it A] gives you more turning attempts and B] it gives you access to Burning Hands. Burning Hands is a bad spell, but Divine Fell Animating Burning Hands is a great spell. It lets you put all the bodies you want into a pile of dying people and convert them all into skeletons with a single spell.

Note: If you want (and your DM allows it), you can swap out Fire for the Dragon Below domain from Eberron. This gets you Augment Summoning for free, allowing you to take the Necromancer variant wizard instead of the conjurer for Augment Summoning. The upside is that you get +2HP/HD and +4 to strength and Dex for all the undead you personally create. The downside here is that you get less uses of Fell Animate per day. Your call which is better.

Level 2 brings your HD cap up to 6 per casting, allowing you to raise just about anything that you could plausibly kill as a second level character. Congratulations. If you can't get a skeletal grizzly bear going, see if you can't convince your DM to let you purchase some cows. They're surprisingly powerful once turned into skeletons - check out the Bison entry.

Level 3 kinda sucks. While you do get access to 1st level wizard spells, your save DCs are going to be bad, your caster level is going to be awful and everyone else is casting 2nd level spells. You also don't get to advance your HD for Fell Animate this level. But you need Augment Summoning and the Wizard's will bonus if you want to qualify for Master of Shrouds. There's no real upside here, so just grin and bear it with the help of your undead minions.

Level 4 onwards: You are a Master of the Shrouds: In addition to having cleric casting (if only at 2 levels behind) you have hordes of skeletons and incorporeal undead. Congratulations!

[Vizzerdrix]

Level 2 brings your HD cap up to 6 per casting, allowing you to raise just about anything that you could plausibly kill as a second level character. Congratulations. If you can't get a skeletal grizzly bear going, see if you can't convince your DM to let you purchase some cows. They're surprisingly powerful once turned into skeletons - check out the Bison entry.

Oh the cow thing is very clever. Bravo good sir :smallsmile:

[Leathros]

Reading great ideas guys!


Just a clarification on the Animate Dead spell, you pretty much apply the Template Skeleton or Zombie to whomever you just casted it on, right?

[OldTrees1]

Reading great ideas guys!


Just a clarification on the Animate Dead spell, you pretty much apply the Template Skeleton or Zombie to whomever you just casted it on, right?

Yes, unless it is a Dragon and your DM has the Draconomicon(there are special Skeletal/Zombie Dragon templates for that).

[lsfreak]

And while it's been stated, it needs to be stated again I think: keep in mind part of the template is losing all class levels. That means the big badass Elven Hexxer King you killed is pretty much equal to a leprous beggar once skeletonized (and in general skeletons are better than zombies). You need Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East in order to keep class levels, but it comes with its own downsides, mostly cost.

I don't think it's been mentioned, but there's also rules for Spellstitching undead in Complete Arcane, which lets them cast a number of spells as spell-like abilities, based on their Wisdom. Rebuke or Animate (via Dread Warrior) a good minion and give them spells... including, possibly, animate dead itself, so they can circumvent the normal 25g/HD cost.

[Coidzor]

Reading great ideas guys!


Just a clarification on the Animate Dead spell, you pretty much apply the Template Skeleton or Zombie to whomever you just casted it on, right?

The corpses you cast it on, yes. The two main exceptions to this, Blood Hulks and the Necrosis Carnex tell you what you need to know in their creature entries.

[atemu1234]

Here's my preferred undead raising build:

Level 1: Human Cleric (Domains Deathbound and Fire); Feats: Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic Fell Animate.
Level 2: Cleric 2
Level 3: Enhanced Summoning Conjurer (Wizard Variant from UA); Feat: Spell Focus Conjuration.
Level 4 onwards: Master of Shrouds

At level 1, you're throwing most of your Rebuking charges into powering up a single spell with Divine Fell Animate. You use it as a coup de gras to turn a downed enemy into your undead minion without paying money for it or being a 5th level character. You can raise stuff with up to 3 HD, so your ideal raising targets would be 1st level warriors, black bears and crocodiles. You may be asking why you took the Fire Domain. This is because it A] gives you more turning attempts and B] it gives you access to Burning Hands. Burning Hands is a bad spell, but Divine Fell Animating Burning Hands is a great spell. It lets you put all the bodies you want into a pile of dying people and convert them all into skeletons with a single spell.

Note: If you want (and your DM allows it), you can swap out Fire for the Dragon Below domain from Eberron. This gets you Augment Summoning for free, allowing you to take the Necromancer variant wizard instead of the conjurer for Augment Summoning. The upside is that you get +2HP/HD and +4 to strength and Dex for all the undead you personally create. The downside here is that you get less uses of Fell Animate per day. Your call which is better.

Level 2 brings your HD cap up to 6 per casting, allowing you to raise just about anything that you could plausibly kill as a second level character. Congratulations. If you can't get a skeletal grizzly bear going, see if you can't convince your DM to let you purchase some cows. They're surprisingly powerful once turned into skeletons - check out the Bison entry.

Level 3 kinda sucks. While you do get access to 1st level wizard spells, your save DCs are going to be bad, your caster level is going to be awful and everyone else is casting 2nd level spells. You also don't get to advance your HD for Fell Animate this level. But you need Augment Summoning and the Wizard's will bonus if you want to qualify for Master of Shrouds. There's no real upside here, so just grin and bear it with the help of your undead minions.

Level 4 onwards: You are a Master of the Shrouds: In addition to having cleric casting (if only at 2 levels behind) you have hordes of skeletons and incorporeal undead. Congratulations!

This is bloody brilliant.