ninja question (complete adventurer)

[bjoern]

One of our players made a ninja.
Couple questions.

First, being invisible in relation to an enemy is the same as them being blinded in relation to you right? They lose their dex bonus and are subject to a ninjas sudden strike correct?

Second, the ninjas ghost step class ability days that as a swift action the ninja can become invisible for one round. It doesn't say "as per invisibility spell" it just says invisible for one round. If the ninja uses ghost step and then full attacks, do they remain invisible for all the attacks? The invisibility spell specifies that if you attack you become visible, implying that without this exception the norm would be to remain invisible. Ghost step does not mimic the spell however.

Third, "denied dex bonus" is not the same as "take a -4 penalty to dex, resulting in a +0 dex modifier" correct?

I am all about throwing bones to martial PCs whenever possible. We ruled that #1 is yes, #2 is he stays invisible, and #3 they are not the same thing.

[rrwoods]

This is what you want for the first two questions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) The condition "invisible", not the spell invisibility, informs those answers. You won't snap out of invisibility for attacking.

"Denied dexterity bonus" (almost?) always means you don't get your dex to AC; it doesn't affect dexterity in any other way.

[bjoern]

This is what you want for the first two questions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) The condition "invisible", not the spell invisibility, informs those answers. You won't snap out of invisibility for attacking.

"Denied dexterity bonus" (almost?) always means you don't get your dex to AC; it doesn't affect dexterity in any other way.

OK. So we have an answer for that. He stays invisible.
Now , under the invisible condition it says "ignores dex bonus" is that the same as "denied dex bonus"?


On your second statement, you lost me. I don't follow what you're trying to say.

[torrasque666]

OK. So we have an answer for that. He stays invisible.
Now , under the invisible condition it says "ignores dex bonus" is that the same as "denied dex bonus"?


On your second statement, you lost me. I don't follow what you're trying to say.

He's saying that it doesn't modify Dex, because your original post seemed to imply that it would modify the base dexterity attribute to the point where their Dex bonus to AC was 0. This is not the case. Much like touch attacks ignore armor/shield bonus(es), being flatfooted is calculated at having no Dex bonus (so normal AC-Dex bonus)

Probably a communication breakdown.

[nyjastul69]

OK. So we have an answer for that. He stays invisible.
Now , under the invisible condition it says "ignores dex bonus" is that the same as "denied dex bonus"?


On your second statement, you lost me. I don't follow what you're trying to say.

Yes, if a you can ignore a creatures dex bonus their dex is denied to them as far as your character is concerned.

Edit: In short, you are correct on all three points.

[lsfreak]

First, being invisible in relation to an enemy is the same as them being blinded in relation to you right? They lose their dex bonus and are subject to a ninjas sudden strike correct?
I wouldn't relate it to blind because it may start to get confusing.
Blind: -2 AC penalty, no Dex bonus to AC, half movement speed, -4 on Search and "most Str/Dex-based skill checks," fail all vision-based checks, enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance). Rendered vulnerable to sneak attack and sudden strike because they are denied Dex to AC.
Invisible: Gain a +2 bonus to attack, ignores Dex bonus to AC. Can use Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike because of denied Dex to AC.


Second, the ninjas ghost step class ability days that as a swift action the ninja can become invisible for one round. It doesn't say "as per invisibility spell" it just says invisible for one round. If the ninja uses ghost step and then full attacks, do they remain invisible for all the attacks? The invisibility spell specifies that if you attack you become visible, implying that without this exception the norm would be to remain invisible. Ghost step does not mimic the spell however.
If it doesn't mimic the spell, it doesn't break on attacks.


Third, "denied dex bonus" is not the same as "take a -4 penalty to dex, resulting in a +0 dex modifier" correct?
"Denied Dex" just means that whatever Dex bonus you normally get to your AC is ignored. They still get it for everything else, but against a particular attack they can't apply their Dex bonus (penalties still apply, so a Dex 16 character's armor is 3 less than normal, while an 8 Dex character takes a -1 penalty whether they're denied their Dex bonus or not).

[Seharvepernfan]

First, being invisible in relation to an enemy is the same as them being blinded in relation to you right? They lose their dex bonus and are subject to a ninjas sudden strike correct?

No. It is not the same as them being blind. You get the perks of invisibility (the condition) and their dex is effectively 10 (or whatever their score is, if less than 10 already). If the ninja is invisible and attacks an enemy, he/she gets sudden strike against them, unless it is blocked by uncanny dodge.


Second, the ninjas ghost step class ability days that as a swift action the ninja can become invisible for one round. It doesn't say "as per invisibility spell" it just says invisible for one round. If the ninja uses ghost step and then full attacks, do they remain invisible for all the attacks?

I never noticed this myself, but yes, they stay invisible for the whole round, regardless of what they do.


Third, "denied dex bonus" is not the same as "take a -4 penalty to dex, resulting in a +0 dex modifier" correct?

I am all about throwing bones to martial PCs whenever possible. We ruled that #1 is yes, #2 is he stays invisible, and #3 they are not the same thing.

No, it is not the same. If they are "denied dex bonus", it just means that if their dex mod was greater than +0, it is now +0.

[nyjastul69]

No. It is not the same as them being blind. You get the perks of invisibility (the condition) and their dex is effectively 10 (or whatever their score is, if less than 10 already). ...


The opponent loses their dex bonus to AC, but dex is otherwise unaffected. They would have a 10 dex only as far as AC is concerned. Initiative, reflex saves, skill checks etc. remain unaffected.

[bjoern]

No. It is not the same as them being blind. You get the perks of invisibility (the condition) and their dex is effectively 10 (or whatever their score is, if less than 10 already). If the ninja is invisible and attacks an enemy, he/she gets sudden strike against them, unless it is blocked by uncanny dodge.



I never noticed this myself, but yes, they stay invisible for the whole round, regardless of what they do.



No, it is not the same. If they are "denied dex bonus", it just means that if their dex mod was greater than +0, it is now +0.

I don't think that is correct. If it were , then anyone with an 10 dexterity would be immune to sneak attack and sudden strike .

[Seharvepernfan]

I don't think that is correct. If it were , then anyone with an 10 dexterity would be immune to sneak attack and sudden strike .

I don't know why you think that.

"Whenever a ninja's target is denied a dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not), the ninja deals an extra 1d6 points of damage with her attack."

Was that what you were refering to?

[bjoern]

I don't know why you think that.

"Whenever a ninja's target is denied a dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not), the ninja deals an extra 1d6 points of damage with her attack."

Was that what you were refering to?

What I was talking about is: you said that being denied dex means that if their bonus is greater than +0, it is now +0.

The amount of the bonus doesn't matter. +100, +5, +0. Those are all bonuses, +0 is a bonus. Someone with a 10 dex (+0) is not flat footed, is not denied their dex bonus, and can't be sudden striked.
Someone with a 10 dex (+0) that has been denied their dex bonus somehow no longer has a +0 to dex, they have nothing. They are denied their dex bonus.

Being denied your dex bonus doesn't mean that your bonus has been reduced in some way. Its more like a condition if you will. If you go off the basis that their bonus must start above +0 in order to be denied their bonus, then someone with a default +0 will never meet your criteria and will never be able to be denied their bonus.

[Seharvepernfan]

Okay, let me try this: they're flat-footed either way, but "denied dex bonus" doesn't mean that they have a -4 dex penalty for whatever reason, it just means their dex is 10 (or whatever it was if less than 10 already) with regards to AC, since I can't leave anything unsaid around here.

[Afgncaap5]

Okay, let me try this: they're flat-footed either way, but "denied dex bonus" doesn't mean that they have a -4 dex penalty for whatever reason, it just means their dex is 10 (or whatever it was if less than 10 already) with regards to AC, since I can't leave anything unsaid around here.

I think the distinction was best summed up by a rogue player who was fighting a dragon in an early game I played. After some quibbling with terms with the DM for a second, the rogue player said "I don't need to know whether or not the dragon has a dexterity modifier to AC, I just need to know if it's denied one."

[lsfreak]

I'm still not sure why you'd ever consider "setting Dex to 10 for an attack." Their Dex never changes, any bonus is just not applied for that attack. Saying their Dex is 10 for an attack seems much more likely to misinterpretation than "denied the bonus."

[KillianHawkeye]

I think the issue some people are confusing is that being denied your Dexterity bonus does not help somebody with a Dex less than 10, since a bonus is defined as only a positive modifier (a negative one being called a penalty). Now the rules state that a creature with below average Dex still retains their normal penalty to AC whenever they'd normally be denied their Dexterity bonus, but they are still subject to whatever effects such as sneak attack and sudden strike that come online when they are denied their Dex bonus.

As lsfreak said, using the phrase "treated like their Dexterity is 10 for that attack" is a confusing and misleading way to say something that is actually pretty simple. Every creature has a Dex modifier to AC, which is either a bonus or a penalty (or zero). When the right conditions are met, an attacker can ignore the bonus (if it exists or not), and that in turn triggers other things like sneak attack. When that happens, it really doesn't matter if the target had a Dex bonus to begin with, only that the attacker got into a situation where they could ignore it.