Need help with a hyper optimized Archer. 3.5

[Pezofpower]

Hey there folks, until approximately last week, I thought I had a pretty intimate understanding of 3.5 mechanically. Today I learned, that I was horribly mistaken. I'm starting with a new group on wednesday and our skype conversations consisted of damage output at or around 136 by level 6 for our Barbarian charger.

That level of knowledge has intimidated me a bit, which is why I'm coming here. Initially I just wanted to be a arrow gish, having something useful for every situation. Arrow of heal wounds combined with splitting ect. However, I really need to up game and so I could use some help making a gish archer or poisoner archer.

Game is starting at level one. My rolled stats are the following: 16,15,14,14,13,12 I have 150GP to start. We have all 3.5 WoTC books on the table. Only thing not allowed is psionics. Help me GiTP you're my only hope. Also, concerning issues of alignment, I'd like to be neutral or good aligned.

[Karl Aegis]

Be a cloistered Cleric of Ehlona. Take Elf Domain, Trade Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Pick up Zen Archery at level 3. Cast Divine Power and Greater Magic Weapon as needed. Pick up a splitting bow and use some raptor arrows. It really isn't that hard.

[Pezofpower]

Hey thanks a lot.

[Curmudgeon]

Pick up a splitting bow and use some raptor arrows.
Those are at cross purposes. Splitting makes two identical copies of the original, but neither is the actual arrow fired. Only the Raptor Arrow fired from the bow returns to it. So you'll end up using one magical implement to throw away some other magical implements.
It really isn't that hard. Harder than you think, I'm afraid.

[Pezofpower]

Those are at cross purposes. Splitting makes two identical copies of the original, but neither is the actual arrow fired. Only the Raptor Arrow fired from the bow returns to it. So you'll end up using one magical implement to throw away some other magical implements. Harder than you think, I'm afraid.


I'm open to suggestions.

[Firechanter]

Be a cloistered Cleric of Ehlona. Take Elf Domain, Trade Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Pick up Zen Archery at level 3. Cast Divine Power and Greater Magic Weapon as needed. Pick up a splitting bow and use some raptor arrows. It really isn't that hard.

Basically a great concept, but some notes:
- firstly, that assumes that the player wants to be an Elf -- otherwise, the character won't have Bow proficiency. 3.5 Clerics are NOT automatically proficient with their deity's Favored Weapon. Only if they have the War Domain, which Ehlonna does not offer. So if you aren't an Elf, you need to get the Prof somewhere - like multiclassing, spending 5000GP for Bracers of Archery, or spending a Feat (like Militia).
- Also, do note that this build does not really come online before Clr 7. Before that, using Divine Favor helps a little.
- Splitting is a +3 bonus, which means the bow will cost at least 32K GP, which means (if you play with WBL and standard cost limits) that you won't be able to afford this bow before level 11ish.
- Splitting also requires you to have the Precise Shot feat, which I believe can be acquired through some item, I forget the name though.

Apart from the automatic Bow Proficiency, being an Elf does not really help a Cleric Archer because he uses Wis to shoot, not Dex.

You might want to go for DMM Persist. Note that this eats a lot of feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM Persist, and maybe Extra Turning on top to fuel it. And then any bow-specific feats you might want.

What I'm trying to say is, such a build can really rock, but only at later levels. The low levels will be a rather stony road.

[Pezofpower]

Basically a great concept, but some notes:
- firstly, that assumes that the player wants to be an Elf -- otherwise, the character won't have Bow proficiency. 3.5 Clerics are NOT automatically proficient with their deity's Favored Weapon. Only if they have the War Domain, which Ehlonna does not offer. So if you aren't an Elf, you need to get the Prof somewhere - like multiclassing, spending 5000GP for Bracers of Archery, or spending a Feat (like Militia).
- Also, do note that this build does not really come online before Clr 7. Before that, using Divine Favor helps a little.
- Splitting is a +3 bonus, which means the bow will cost at least 32K GP, which means (if you play with WBL and standard cost limits) that you won't be able to afford this bow before level 11ish.
- Splitting also requires you to have the Precise Shot feat, which I believe can be acquired through some item, I forget the name though.

Apart from the automatic Bow Proficiency, being an Elf does not really help a Cleric Archer because he uses Wis to shoot, not Dex.

You might want to go for DMM Persist. Note that this eats a lot of feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM Persist, and maybe Extra Turning on top to fuel it. And then any bow-specific feats you might want.

What I'm trying to say is, such a build can really rock, but only at later levels. The low levels will be a rather stony road.


I'd really rather not go DMM, it's just not fun. I also don't know my DM well enough to facilitate the good ole nightstick debate.

[dextercorvia]

At lower levels, I like Wizard archers. They have Arrow Mind, Guided Shot, and Sniper's Shot on their list. You can dip Spellthief to get Sneak Attack, and steal spells at maximum range without attack penalty.

[Firechanter]

I'd really rather not go DMM, it's just not fun. I also don't know my DM well enough to facilitate the good ole nightstick debate.

Well, I'd never assume Nightstick stacking, but even a single Nightstick goes a long way. I wouldn't expect to be able to persist more than 2, max 3 spells per day, but this can go a long way.

Otherwise, if you cast your Divine Power without DMM, you'll be limited to a small handful of encounters per day; it's probably a healthier playstyle but it will eat most of your level 4 spell slots.

[Pezofpower]

Well, I'd never assume Nightstick stacking, but even a single Nightstick goes a long way. I wouldn't expect to be able to persist more than 2, max 3 spells per day, but this can go a long way.

Otherwise, if you cast your Divine Power without DMM, you'll be limited to a small handful of encounters per day; it's probably a healthier playstyle but it will eat most of your level 4 spell slots.

Yeah I'm beginning to feel like maybe Archer isn't the way to go, and instead just focus on ranged something else. Like a ray based caster or something UMD rogue might be fun.

[darksolitaire]

At lower levels, I like Wizard archers. They have Arrow Mind, Guided Shot, and Sniper's Shot on their list. You can dip Spellthief to get Sneak Attack, and steal spells at maximum range without attack penalty.

I think Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order could top that. It gets those Wizard spells and Ranger spells at decent pace, plus proficiency with martial weapons, good bab and some archery feats.

[Darrin]

I'd start with Piggy Knowles Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283). Tippy's Bird of Prey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818) is probably worth a look, too.

I'm not really sure you want to use an ubercharger's damage output as a measuring stick for a ranged character. Kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Archers generally win not through direct damage, but by being able to hurt their opponent when their opponent can't hurt them back. Hence flying + ranged vs. non-flying melee = very dead melee.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I think Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order could top that. It gets those Wizard spells and Ranger spells at decent pace, plus proficiency with martial weapons, good bab and some archery feats.

Seconding this plan. If you can get Mystic Ranger approved (and maybe argue that his caster level is meant to count a FULL Ranger Levels, instead of HALF), then it's a really good build.

[Curmudgeon]

I wanted to get into Arcane Archer (for a 2-level dip to acquire Imbue Arrow) from a divine spellcaster base, so I used (Mystic) Ranger as well as (Cloistered) Cleric. Here's the build I developed, below:

Here's an archer build I came up with a while back, intended to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody. (Note: The cheesy bonus feat swap may be RAW legal, but I recommend it only if you want to antagonize your DM.)

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Obligatory handbook link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269705-Toxophilite-The-Archery-Handbook).

3.5 archery usually needs a crapton of feats and a source of bonus damage-- you'll launch lots of attacks, but they'll only be doing base weapon damage. Good options for the latter are:

Skirmish, at least when combined with Improved Manyshot and/or a means of swift-action movement like Travel Devotion.
Knowledge Devotion, at least when paired with the right build (ranger/scout with Educated, Cloistered Cleric, Duskblade, etc). Not as powerful as Skirmish, but fewer restrictions.
Peerless Archer. It's a PrC from an obscure book, but it gives you ranged power attack at level 3, and only requires one useless feat and 10 wasted skill points.
Soulbow. You'll be dropping two levels on Soulknife first, but it gives you Wis to damage and bonus feats (including Zen Archery, kindly enough). Pairs well with a standard cleric-centric Zen Archery build, provided you don't mind losing a couple caster levels. It sucks getting there, though.


As an unconventional option, how 'bout Duskblade? You get a full BAB and all the tools to make Knowledge Devotion shine (high Int, all Knowledge skills). Start as human for Point-Blank and Precise Shot at 1st, grab Knowledge Devotion at 3rd. Dip Fighter for a level or two for Rapid Shot and Manyshot early. Spend your Duskblade spells known on buff/utility spells (Resist Energy, Dimension Hop, Spider Climb, etc). Consider taking Touchstone at 6th (Sandstorm), and dipping into Sand Shaper at 7th for even more spells known. Abjurant Champion works out pretty well for you, particularly Arcane Boost-- burn a spell (of which you have many) for 2*spell level to damage for a round.

If you'd prefer, you can arguably use the feats Magical Training (PGtF) and Versatile Spellcaster to cast spells from a spellbook-- which works just fine for you, given how many spell slots Duskblades get. If you go down that route, I'd go Human Duskblade 1 (the aforementioned feats)/Fighter 2 (Point-Blank and Precise Shot with bonus feats, Knowledge Devotion at third)/Duskblade +2/Abjurant Champion 5/your choice of gish PrC 10. (Jade Phoenix Mage is probably the best, although you'd have to dip an initiator class. (Not the end of the world, or even a bad choice)

[Firechanter]

Yeah I'm beginning to feel like maybe Archer isn't the way to go, and instead just focus on ranged something else. Like a ray based caster or something UMD rogue might be fun.

If you're not that bent on being an Archer, it just occured to me that with your rolled stats, you might be able to build an effective Ruby Knight Vindicator. These are very MAD, but your array would support that.
(Again, I presume a _sane_ reading of the RKV's main shtick, i.e. you can use _one_ Turn _Undead_ Attempt to get an additional Swift Action; this is a Free Action you can use once per round.)

However, do double-check if the rest of the party is actually playing such builds as the one you mentioned in your OP -- i.e. such as the Pouncebarian ubercharging for 130+ dmg per round at level 6. It's not difficult to pull off, but just because you can doesn't mean you should, and one may wonder what actual gameplay is supposed to look like in such a group.

[Snowbluff]

If you're using Arcane Archer, I suggest combining it with Splitting/ Arrow Split for spell multiplication. It's a bit of a nasty trick, but I like it with Twinned Fell Drain Hail of Stone.

Curmudgeon's Build looks good.

[atemu1234]

If you're using Arcane Archer, I suggest combining it with Splitting/ Arrow Split for spell multiplication. It's a bit of a nasty trick, but I like it with Twinned Fell Drain Hail of Stone.

Curmudgeon's Build looks good.

Also, if you get Arcane Archer, only dip for arcane spells, unless you only take two levels of archer.