Making a Duergar Psy War

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so i recently got the Expanded Psionics Handbook and i had the idea of making an ex-thrall Duergar who would be a sort of Rune Smith except psionic. I see him using Astral Construct and making Psionic Constructs and then using them to destroy the Illithids that had used him. Now since im knew to Psionics i dont want to jump into it whole hog, so i was gonna use Psy War as my base and get Astral Construct with Expanded Knowledge. As for other feats i thought Speed of Thought and an AoO build could be fun. Now im kinda annoyed that Psy War is 3/4ths BaB as id like to be Full, so id probably go into Illithid Slayer as the Pre Reqs are easy and its a fluffy PrC, so he'd probably look like this:

Psy War 5/Ranger 1/ Illithid Slayer 10.

Now i have nothing after that but id like to not lose any more manifesting if its possible. Also if theres a better PrC for my needs id love to hear about it, also as always better ways to do what im doing are always appreciated.

[Feint's End]

First off welcome to the coolest subsystem every created.

Secondly I got a few remarks and suggestions.
If you want to focus on a strap constructs first and foremost then go Psion. Psywars are great at what they do but creating astral constructs isn't necessarily one of them (also the class isn't easier to use than psion).

For build I suggest Psion (shaper) 5 / construction prc 10 / other construction prc 5 .... I kind of forgot the name now but both are very good if you want to focus on ectoplasm. I can check when I'm back home.
Remember that you don't need slayer to hate your oppressors ... The mechanics you get from the class are irrelevant to you and the fluff can be applied to pretty much every class.

If you still want to go Psywar then I guess I can help you too but from the sound of it you'd be better of with Psion.

[atemu1234]

First off welcome to the coolest subsystem every created.

Secondly I got a few remarks and suggestions.
If you want to focus on a strap constructs first and foremost then go Psion. Psywars are great at what they do but creating astral constructs isn't necessarily one of them (also the class isn't easier to use than psion).

For build I suggest Psion (shaper) 5 / construction prc 10 / other construction prc 5 .... I kind of forgot the name now but both are very good if you want to focus on ectoplasm. I can check when I'm back home.
Remember that you don't need slayer to hate your oppressors ... The mechanics you get from the class are irrelevant to you and the fluff can be applied to pretty much every class.

If you still want to go Psywar then I guess I can help you too but from the sound of it you'd be better of with Psion.

Yes, I too recommend that you take Psion instead of Psychic Warrior.

[Blackhawk748]

First off welcome to the coolest subsystem every created.

Secondly I got a few remarks and suggestions.
If you want to focus on a strap constructs first and foremost then go Psion. Psywars are great at what they do but creating astral constructs isn't necessarily one of them (also the class isn't easier to use than psion).

For build I suggest Psion (shaper) 5 / construction prc 10 / other construction prc 5 .... I kind of forgot the name now but both are very good if you want to focus on ectoplasm. I can check when I'm back home.
Remember that you don't need slayer to hate your oppressors ... The mechanics you get from the class are irrelevant to you and the fluff can be applied to pretty much every class.

If you still want to go Psywar then I guess I can help you too but from the sound of it you'd be better of with Psion.

I realize that Psion would be better, and probably not overly difficult, theres just so many freakin powers! So i figured id dumb it down and go with a Psy War, also Constructs aren't the "main theme" of this build, i just want to have a sweet golem to hang out with my Duergar and to summon a few more buddies. Basically a one man kill squad, and if he's a Psion he'll be squisher than id like. Also i really like all the toys that Illithid Slayer gets, and the full BaB thats nice too.

So how can i make Psy War do this?

[atemu1234]

I realize that Psion would be better, and probably not overly difficult, theres just so many freakin powers! So i figured id dumb it down and go with a Psy War, also Constructs aren't the "main theme" of this build, i just want to have a sweet golem to hang out with my Duergar and to summon a few more buddies. Basically a one man kill squad, and if he's a Psion he'll be squisher than id like. Also i really like all the toys that Illithid Slayer gets, and the full BaB thats nice too.

So how can i make Psy War do this?

How about a Wilder? It plays into Illithid Slayer better.

[Blackhawk748]

How about a Wilder? It plays into Illithid Slayer better.

That was my first thought, that and better Skills, but Duergar have that -4 Cha so Wilder isnt exactly wonderful for them, still do-able just my Save DCs are gonna suck.

[Flickerdart]

Basically a one man kill squad, and if he's a Psion he'll be squisher than id like. Also i really like all the toys that Illithid Slayer gets, and the full BaB thats nice too.
Since you'll be hopping into Slayer after a couple of levels, the benefits of Psychic Warrior (higher HD, BAB) are no longer progressing, while you are still stuck with the inferior power list. If you want to gish, go either straight Psychic Warrior or Psion/Slayer.

[Feint's End]

Have you considered Ardent instead? It has better power access if you take the right mantles and plays fairly well with Slayer (and it is wisdom based so no problem there). As Flickerdart has said Psychic Warrior is a weak entrance for Slayer.

[Blackhawk748]

Have you considered Ardent instead? It has better power access if you take the right mantles and plays fairly well with Slayer (and it is wisdom based so no problem there). As Flickerdart has said Psychic Warrior is a weak entrance for Slayer.

What book is Ardent in? Ill go take a look.

[Feint's End]

What book is Ardent in? Ill go take a look.

It's from complete psionics. If you are planning to play one take a look at the amazing ACF ... they can be found online with a quick google search.

[Blackhawk748]

It's from complete psionics. If you are planning to play one take a look at the amazing ACF ... they can be found online with a quick google search.

Dominant Ideal is freakin awesome, sadly it means i need 10 levels of Ardent, which is longer than i planned on staying in a Base Class. Might be worth it though...

Edit: it also talks about putting more powers in the mantles, pretty much one per power level, i find it odd that that isnt what the did originally.

[Flickerdart]

Edit: it also talks about putting more powers in the mantles, pretty much one per power level, i find it odd that that isnt what the did originally.
Complete Psionic was...kind of dumb in general. Personally, I would never play an Ardent without the Mind's Eye articles in play.

[Feint's End]

Complete Psionic was...kind of dumb in general. Personally, I would never play an Ardent without the Mind's Eye articles in play.

So much this.

The point of the ACF is actually to give you more flexibility as you can swap out powers for more appropriate ones.

Dominant Ideal is like a capstone in and of itself so it's definitely worth staying in class for 10 levels. Add 10 levels of slayer and you'll be golden. I suggest taking creation mantle and freedom mantle and add buffing mantles as you go. Switch out powers for others you desire more and you'll be good.

Note that Ardent is special in that the maximum levels of powers known actually depends on manifested level instead of levels in the class + prcs. So you can be a level 13 Ardent with 4 levels of say fighter, get practised manifester and still be able to choose 9th level powers upon level up (since your ml is 17).

I suggest you just go Ardent X (till entry) / Slayer 10 / Ardent 10-X. This gives you a great capstone, 17 bab, 9th lvl powers and all the tasty class features

[atemu1234]

Complete Psionic was...kind of dumb in general. Personally, I would never play an Ardent without the Mind's Eye articles in play.

Well, I use it. Granted, I use all the material I can get my hands on, up to and including DSP material, so I can't really talk.

I also have a habit of ignoring errata if I don't like it.

[Flickerdart]

Note that Ardent is special in that the maximum levels of powers known actually depends on manifested level instead of levels in the class + prcs. So you can be a level 13 Ardent with 4 levels of say fighter, get practised manifester and still be able to choose 9th level powers upon level up (since your ml is 17).
Don't forget an orange ioun stone and a torc of power preservation, which let you wander from ardent for another two levels and still return for nines. Although I would not recommend this, since you do not get the powers known and PP of a higher-level ardent, making you less versatile and less enduring.

[Feint's End]

Don't forget an orange ioun stone and a torc of power preservation, which let you wander from ardent for another two levels and still return for nines. Although I would not recommend this, since you do not get the powers known and PP of a higher-level ardent, making you less versatile and less enduring.

The orange ion stone I personally find weak for this purpose alone since it is item dependant and the torc doesn't work since it doesn't actually increase your ml (and this is what your powers are dependant on).

I also advice against it since you lose too many powers known, pp and access to mantles but I think it's nice to fill up a few missed ml (although OP will likely not need it since he'll lose 1).

[Flickerdart]

The orange ion stone I personally find weak for this purpose alone since it is item dependant and the torc doesn't work since it doesn't actually increase your ml (and this is what your powers are dependant on).
Torc works fine - ardent's restriction on learning powers is "powers that the ardent can manifest" without reference to ML. The reason ML is a limiter for manifesting powers is that you can't spend more PP than your ML - so an ardent with ML2 cannot manifest a 2nd level power since it costs 3PP. But with a Torc, that power only costs 2PP, so he can manifest it, meaning that it satisfies the sole condition for whether or not he can learn it.

[Feint's End]

Torc works fine - ardent's restriction on learning powers is "powers that the ardent can manifest" without reference to ML. The reason ML is a limiter for manifesting powers is that you can't spend more PP than your ML - so an ardent with ML2 cannot manifest a 2nd level power since it costs 3PP. But with a Torc, that power only costs 2PP, so he can manifest it, meaning that it satisfies the sole condition for whether or not he can learn it.

Meh I'm not sold on this interpretation of Torc of Power Preservation but to each their own.

[Flickerdart]

Meh I'm not sold on this interpretation of Torc of Power Preservation but to each their own.
Why? What separates "moar ML" from "less PP" in your mind, when both can be used to reach "ML >= PP"?

[Feint's End]

Why? What separates "moar ML" from "less PP" in your mind, when both can be used to reach "ML >= PP"?

I'm personally also of the opinion that torc of power preservation is not intended to let you "augment" powers further in a wild surgish kind of way. Maybe RAW says so but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the RAI intend of the item (which is to preserve pp).

Even by RAW torc doesn't actually increase your ml ... A 5th level psion manifesting energy missile while wearing a torc and spending 5pp will deal 6d6 damage. The power still only has ml 5.

[Flickerdart]

I'm personally also of the opinion that torc of power preservation is not intended to let you "augment" powers further in a wild surgish kind of way. Maybe RAW says so but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the RAI intend of the item (which is to preserve pp).

Even by RAW torc doesn't actually increase your ml ... A 5th level psion manifesting energy missile while wearing a torc and spending 5pp will deal 6d6 damage. The power still only has ml 5.
Again, ML has nothing to do with whether an ardent can manifest a power or not. Whether or not he can spend enough PP to do so does, and ML is a limiter on that, but reducing PP vs increasing ML still comes to the same total.

[Feint's End]

Again, ML has nothing to do with whether an ardent can manifest a power or not. Whether or not he can spend enough PP to do so does, and ML is a limiter on that, but reducing PP vs increasing ML still comes to the same total.

Like I said before I don't think Torc of Power Preservation is intended to work this way. I do however agree that by RAW you are right.

[Flickerdart]

Like I said before I don't think Torc of Power Preservation is intended to work this way. I do however agree that by RAW you are right.
But why don't you think it's intended to work that way? What evidence or train of thought has led you to believe this? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Feint's End]

But why don't you think it's intended to work that way? What evidence or train of thought has led you to believe this? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Because for me the intend of the item is to reduce the power point cost of powers you can manifest. Simple as that. Everything else (like by RAW being able to still augment powers to full ml and having 1 "free" pp on top or the interaction with Ardent) are in my eyes by products and not intended.