Shove, Grapple, and Critical Damage.

[Frenth Alunril]

First, Let me be clear, I've played for a while. Loved every game I have played* (I don't play some games)

I know the answer to this question is Rule 0, I made the call, relax, it's not going to hurt anyone.

But I would like to see discussed a "Trip" in 5e.

Today I made the call that the monk, calling his attack as a "Trip" to drop the guy he was facing was a valid move, and seeing as there are no "Trip" rules, I went with "Shove" manipulating it to the same fallen result if it went off. Now, I will admit that I did this in the spirit of 3.5, so, to initiate the contest the monk had to "Make" (overcome AC) a Special Melee Attack, then he rolled Str against the opponents chosen response: Athletics or Acrobatics.

One of my aspiring DMs called me out on this, saying that it didn't require 3 rolls.

He may be right, but I would like an opinion call on this. As DM, ultimately, I make the rules, and there are plenty of good reasons where an attempted trip simply misses, and those where they make contact but are not effective, so, interjecting reality, and following on from prior mechanics, I'm not sure my call on it was entirely wrong.

Now, I'm open to debate so I let it carry on for a while, to gets everyone's opinion, then I told them we would take it to the boards. As the debate continued they brought up Grapple, and I have the same argument there, that you must first, with your free hand(s) succeed on a Special Melee Attack to initiate the grapple. Again, they called me on there being too many rolls, saying that you automatically grab them and it simply turns into a contest...

Needless to say, I'm leery to give in to their reading of the rules, simply because of my prior experience with all systems (that I prefer to play)

Anyway, this brought up another problem as the monk succeed to make his "Special Melee Attack" with a Quarterstaff, and trip the dude, he said, "Can I use my bonus action to initiate an unarmed attack, and stomp on his chest?"

By my reasoning, Special "Attack" was successful, used a monk weapon (The Bo-staff) and meets the criteria, so, yes.

Of course they called me out on this as well. Which they have the right to do, ultimately, because I'm trying to teach them how to play the game, and I encourage them to understand the rules, (thereby teaching me the rules while I try to apply them given what I know)

The debate, ultimately, is an exercise in Ruleslawery, and I expect to illustrate the need for rule 0 from all of this, but I thought I would come to you grand and powerful minds at the consoles of the playground to adjudicate these situations, and perhaps point us in the direction of errata that could lessen the interruption.

I, of course, am humbly awaiting your input.

And now for the lunacy: They did point out that it almost expressly suggests that a natural 20 on an attack with a Spell requiring an attack roll follows the crit rules. Now I know how absurd this sounds to someone who played 2nd ed, or any other previous edition, but, when they brought up the language, all I have is precedence to fall back on, which is practically anathema to 5e.

TLDR

1: Does a shove or a grapple between two players require 2 rolls (Contest) or 3 rolls (1 successful "special attack" to initiate, 2 Contest rolls)

2: RAW nat 20 on a spell attack roll grants critical damage?

[Gritmonger]

RAW, they're right.

It's straight Strength (Athletics) versus Dexterity (Acrobatics) or Strength (Athletics)

I know, it feels strange, after having touch AC and the mere mention of "grappling" in second edition inducing numerous DM seizures.

For Trip, I'd just rule that as a Shove with no options - it always knocks prone.

---

For the other thing, the critting cantrip, it says "when you score a critical hit" - it doesn't say "with a weapon" or "excluding targeted spells."

[Malifice]

1: Does a shove or a grapple between two players require 2 rolls (Contest) or 3 rolls (1 successful "special attack" to initiate, 2 Contest rolls)

2: RAW nat 20 on a spell attack roll grants critical damage?

AFB but:

1) Two rolls. Athletics v Athletics only.

2) Yes.

[Easy_Lee]

Your players are right; it's two rolls and spells can crit.

In general, 5e seeks both balance and speed of play. When you're not sure how many rolls something should take, the lowest number is generally correct. Similarly, spell attacks would be weaker than melee attacks if they could not crit, so it's a safe bet that they can crit (which indeed they can).

[Bubzors]

Yea no rule 0 or dm call on this one. Per the rules just an oppossed check for grapple or shove, and nat 20 is a critical whether it is spell or weapon

[xyianth]

1) two rolls only, the attacker rolls athletics while the target rolls either athletics or acrobatics. (target's choice)
2) if the spell requires an attack roll, then it does crit on a natural 20.

Addendum: In order to take the shove action, one first has to take the attack action then convert an attack into a shove. (or grapple or etc...) A monk that takes the attack action while either unarmed or wielding a monk weapon is allowed a bonus action unarmed attack. (or by spending 1 ki, flurry of blows) This continues to apply regardless of whether the monk converts an attack into a shove or not. Therefore, a monk can shove a target and still make a bonus action unarmed attack.

Where the RAW is slightly less clear is whether a monk (or anyone with a bonus action attack) can convert a bonus action attack into a shove or grapple. By pure RAW, I don't believe you can do so, but I see no reason to prevent it RAI.

As for the lack of rules for a 'trip' attack, you can use a shove to knock a target prone. This is fundamentally a refluffed trip, and you should therefore use the same mechanics. This is partially supported by the mechanics for the battlemaster's trip attack maneuver.

TL;DR: your players are correct.

[Giant2005]

1) two rolls only, the attacker rolls athletics while the target rolls either athletics or acrobatics. (target's choice)
2) if the spell requires an attack roll, then it does crit on a natural 20.

Addendum: In order to take the shove action, one first has to take the attack action then convert an attack into a shove. (or grapple or etc...) A monk that takes the attack action while either unarmed or wielding a monk weapon is allowed a bonus action unarmed attack. (or by spending 1 ki, flurry of blows) This continues to apply regardless of whether the monk converts an attack into a shove or not. Therefore, a monk can shove a target and still make a bonus action unarmed attack.

Where the RAW is slightly less clear is whether a monk (or anyone with a bonus action attack) can convert a bonus action attack into a shove or grapple. By pure RAW, I don't believe you can do so, but I see no reason to prevent it RAI.

As for the lack of rules for a 'trip' attack, you can use a shove to knock a target prone. This is fundamentally a refluffed trip, and you should therefore use the same mechanics. This is partially supported by the mechanics for the battlemaster's trip attack maneuver.

TL;DR: your players are correct.

This guy knows his stuff.

[Frenth Alunril]

Looks like I let all those years of 3.5 creep into my game...

Thank you for this clarification.

Unless anyone has a valid argument against this, it looks like this conversation is closed ;)

I had better re-read the rules!

[Mara]

Looks like I let all those years of 3.5 creep into my game...

Thank you for this clarification.

Unless anyone has a valid argument against this, it looks like this conversation is closed ;)

I had better re-read the rules!

Well spells could crit back in 3.5. It was the same rule. Spells with attack rolls could crit (x2) damage.

[silveralen]

Looks like I let all those years of 3.5 creep into my game...

Thank you for this clarification.

Unless anyone has a valid argument against this, it looks like this conversation is closed ;)

I had better re-read the rules!

I thought I might point out monk of the open hand has an ability similar to what you described, so it might be rules got jumbled in your head. Even if not, might be worth pointing out to your player if he likes tripping people.

[Person_Man]

As an addendum, if your players ever try improvised Actions ("I want to swing from the chandelier, kick over the statue, and have it land on the goblins below!") I strongly suggest that you resolve it with 1 roll using the Athletics or Acrobatics Skill or Attack roll (or whatever check makes the most sense for the situation), set the DC to the level of difficulty you think is appropriate, and then have the results match the level of difficulty (success in a very difficult stunt = very effective outcome).

Avoid the temptation to break things up into multiple rolls (Acrobatics to swing, attack roll to kick over the statue, then a Reflex Save for the goblins below) even if you think it "makes more sense" - because doing so makes a successful outcome dramatically less likely, it slows down the game, and it discourages the players from being creative.

[Frenth Alunril]

As an addendum, if your players ever try improvised Actions ("I want to swing from the chandelier, kick over the statue, and have it land on the goblins below!") I strongly suggest that you resolve it with 1 roll using the Athletics or Acrobatics Skill or Attack roll (or whatever check makes the most sense for the situation), set the DC to the level of difficulty you think is appropriate, and then have the results match the level of difficulty (success in a very difficult stunt = very effective outcome).

Avoid the temptation to break things up into multiple rolls (Acrobatics to swing, attack roll to kick over the statue, then a Reflex Save for the goblins below) even if you think it "makes more sense" - because doing so makes a successful outcome dramatically less likely, it slows down the game, and it discourages the players from being creative.

This is great advice!

Thanks!

[Daehron]

I freely let my dextrous players "Trip" vs "Shove" and make it a Dex (Acrobatics) check vs Str (athletics) or Dex (acrobatics). I see no reason that a character using an action to swing their staff between the legs of an opponent, or attempt a leg sweep, or other carefully described as being more of a swift, dextrous move to trip / topple is less viable than a brute force shove.

But that is me, I hate brute force when misdirection and guile will do.

[Malifice]

As an addendum, if your players ever try improvised Actions ("I want to swing from the chandelier, kick over the statue, and have it land on the goblins below!") I strongly suggest that you resolve it with 1 roll using the Athletics or Acrobatics Skill or Attack roll (or whatever check makes the most sense for the situation), set the DC to the level of difficulty you think is appropriate, and then have the results match the level of difficulty (success in a very difficult stunt = very effective outcome).

Avoid the temptation to break things up into multiple rolls (Acrobatics to swing, attack roll to kick over the statue, then a Reflex Save for the goblins below) even if you think it "makes more sense" - because doing so makes a successful outcome dramatically less likely, it slows down the game, and it discourages the players from being creative.

Top advice.

One roll, rule of cool.

[Aurthur]

There's a great guide on grappling around here somewhere on the forums. It helped me understand the combat rules and some of the catches tremendously.

[Person_Man]

There's a great guide on grappling around here somewhere on the forums. It helped me understand the combat rules and some of the catches tremendously.

The Grappler's Manual (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4142801)

Short Version:

Get Advantage to Athletics checks (Help, Enhance Ability, Rage).
Impose Disadvantage on your enemy's Athletics checks (Cutting Words, Hex, status effects).
Get Expertise to Athletics checks (Rogue or Bard).
Get multiple attacks (Extra Attack, Multiattack, Action Surge, Opportunity Attacks).
Take the Grappler Feat (if your DM is a RAI guy and will allow you to Grapple larger creatures).
Bard or multiclass Whatever/Bard is arguably the best Grappler in the game, since it can cherry pick spells from any list and gets Expertise.

[silveralen]

Also, tavern brawler for BA grapple. Not amazing but worth mentioning.

[Person_Man]

Also, tavern brawler for BA grapple. Not amazing but worth mentioning.

You can use your Bonus Action to Grapple if you hit an enemy with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon.

Unarmed Strike is not a Light or Finesse weapon, and deals just 1d4 damage if you're not a Monk.

A Monk can always make an Bonus Action attack, or Flurry and make 2.

So its basically a trap option unless your DM allows improvised weapons to deal 2d6ish+ damage.

[silveralen]

You can use your Bonus Action to Grapple if you hit an enemy with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon.

Unarmed Strike is not a Light or Finesse weapon, and deals just 1d4 damage if you're not a Monk.

A Monk can always make an Bonus Action attack, or Flurry and make 2.

So its basically a trap option unless your DM allows improvised weapons to deal 2d6ish+ damage.

Fair point, my table does so I may have overvalued it.

[Xetheral]

You can use your Bonus Action to Grapple if you hit an enemy with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon.

Unarmed Strike is not a Light or Finesse weapon, and deals just 1d4 damage if you're not a Monk.

A Monk can always make an Bonus Action attack, or Flurry and make 2.

So its basically a trap option unless your DM allows improvised weapons to deal 2d6ish+ damage.

Note that monks can't grapple with their Martial Arts or Flurry attacks, because grapple attacks can only be made as part of the Attack action. As far as I know, Tavern Brawler is the only way to make a bonus action grapple attempt.

(Similarly, reaction attacks and opportunity attacks can't be used to grapple, and there is disagreement on whether Readying allows one to Ready a (single attack) Attack Action.)

On the other hand, Tavern Brawler works with improvised weapons, which, by the rules on 147-148 can include improvised light and improvised finesse weapons. An improvised Rapier can do 1d8 damage, allow Sneak Attack damage, and then permit a bonus action Grapple.

[Easy_Lee]

The effectiveness of Tavern brawler and necessity of grappler depend upon one's DM. As such, usage will vary by game and the interested player would be wise to ask his/her DM ahead of time.

There are only a few things I would add to Person_man's response:

Shield master may be an effective feat choice depending on one's situation and DM. One can turn an attack into a grapple, grab the target, and bonus action shove them prone in the same round. Grappling reduces speed to zero, meaning the target cannot stand until they break the grapple. Prone is, obviously, an effective condition to apply.
Cantrips such as shocking grasp can be very effective in a grapple, since their damage scales regardless of melee attack damage and whether one is holding a weapon (picture our intrepid bard holding a shield in one hand and the opponent's throat in the other, pinning the foe to the ground while continuously electrocuting him).
Some DMs may allow a shadow monk to shadow step while holding a grappled target. This may make six levels of monk an effective choice both for this and the unarmored AC.