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View Full Version : Bring out your gish! Janissary/Swordmage discussion.



bloodshed343
2015-03-22, 11:04 PM
A continuation of a conversation between myself and miburo.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the idea of gishes, what they mean to us, and how to balance them.

Firstly, a link to the Janissary class:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1034BZuTAT-8cLGse7D7bZZswOBp-hdGs1Vl8HiOIRwI/edit?usp=sharing

Secondly, a request for permission to link to miburo's Swordmage class.

And finally, I would ask miburo to review the Janissary in more detail while I go over the Swordmage.

BRKNdevil
2015-03-23, 12:32 AM
I didn't really read the thing yet, so i can't say how it is mechanically, but i have to ask about the name. Janissary i could understand as a background. It would be like a more hardcore Soldier Background. Because Janissaries where recruits into the turkish army who where recruited as children to drill them into soldiers. But as a name for a class?

bloodshed343
2015-03-23, 11:17 AM
I didn't really read the thing yet, so i can't say how it is mechanically, but i have to ask about the name. Janissary i could understand as a background. It would be like a more hardcore Soldier Background. Because Janissaries where recruits into the turkish army who where recruited as children to drill them into soldiers. But as a name for a class?

In 4e, Janissary is the name of a servant of an elemental lord. They're technically slaves, but they have a lot of freedom to act autonomously. In 4e, there was a Janissary theme and paragon path, which are a bit like prestige classes.

Wolfsraine
2015-03-23, 11:39 AM
I read this last night and just skimmed through it again right now, it seems a bit over the top. The eldritch strikes damage seems a bit too strong even though it's eating a bonus action. Perhaps tone down the damage of that particular ability. Aside from that, it feels like they get a lot more abilities than any other class. I would imagine reskinning a paladin would get you almost exactly what you are trying to do. Arcane spell progression in place of divine, eldritch strikes=smite, rework Oaths to what you have for the subclasses.

I'm not saying to not be creative and do something similar to what you have, I just think that the Paladin is a great chassis for what you are trying to do. I like what you came up with, it just feels like it gets so much more over other classes.

PotatoGolem
2015-03-23, 01:46 PM
Have to agree with Wolf. This class just gets too much. From a first read-through:

Skills: at level 2, you have 2 proficiency and 2 expertise. More than any caster or martial. At level 14, this increases to 4 expertise. By 14th level, you have expertise in as many skills as a rogue.

Stats: Too SAD. This is a gish that only needs INT. Makes it way better than paladins or rangers, who need to boost both a casting stat and STR/DEX

Eldritch Ward should explicitly not work with a shield. Otherwise, this is a way too attractive dip for martial classes.

Power of Knowledge is super powerful. Remember, you'll have expertise in four of these skills, and this class has literally nothing but INT to worry about so you're looking at some silly huge numbers.

Great Weapon prowess is straight better than the barbarian's extra crit. You're hitting for 2d12+int every round. And you get the Evoker capstone, but you don't have to worry about damage, and the points to use it recharge on a short rest.

Infiltration expert makes you step on the rogue's toes even further. A rogue 2 or 3/ Janissary x is just straight-up better than a full rogue.

The idea is cool, but it definitely needs to be toned down

bloodshed343
2015-03-23, 05:08 PM
Have to agree with Wolf. This class just gets too much. From a first read-through:

Skills: at level 2, you have 2 proficiency and 2 expertise. More than any caster or martial. At level 14, this increases to 4 expertise. By 14th level, you have expertise in as many skills as a rogue.

Stats: Too SAD. This is a gish that only needs INT. Makes it way better than paladins or rangers, who need to boost both a casting stat and STR/DEX

Eldritch Ward should explicitly not work with a shield. Otherwise, this is a way too attractive dip for martial classes.

Power of Knowledge is super powerful. Remember, you'll have expertise in four of these skills, and this class has literally nothing but INT to worry about so you're looking at some silly huge numbers.

Great Weapon prowess is straight better than the barbarian's extra crit. You're hitting for 2d12+int every round. And you get the Evoker capstone, but you don't have to worry about damage, and the points to use it recharge on a short rest.

Infiltration expert makes you step on the rogue's toes even further. A rogue 2 or 3/ Janissary x is just straight-up better than a full rogue.

The idea is cool, but it definitely needs to be toned down

I was thinking about this today at work, after I proofread the class. In a reddit discussion, someone said I should add features at certain levels because they were dead. I promptly followed this advice, and just as promptly forgot about the extra features, due to them being rather hurriedly hashed out. Then, due to poor editing (it's hard to highlight exactly in the mobile docs), some features that were meant to be removed, such as the expertise, were left in.

The following is a brief list of changes going up later today:

Spell progression brought in line with paladin. Spell slots limited to 2.

Lorekeeper’s Thaumaturgy removed.

Eternal Knowledge removed.

Skill Proficiencies: the class will get one skill proficiency from the base list, plus one (or for Loremaster's, 2) more from a smaller list based on their choice of Janissary Education, which will grant expertise in one skill at a later level.

Power of Knowledge: this will be split up between the Janissary Education choices.

Eldritch Warding: no longer grants an ac bonus, still grants scaling DR.

Ward Augments: removed, mostly for being clunky.

Eldritch Strikes: Renamed Sword Burst. Will cost Focus Points like it's supposed to.

Dragon's Teeth: the first part of this ability will be given to the Assault discipline. The damage die increase will be removed.

Shielding discipline will be removed.

Infiltrates no longer get expertise in stealth. Just proficiency. Limit on Eldritch Execution lowered to 3. This gives them a maximum "sneak attack" of 7d6. Might lower it a bit more.

Edit: What about limiting it to your Con modifier?

bloodshed343
2015-03-23, 08:10 PM
Nerfs are in!