Gibbering Mouther and the definition of "Killed"

[Gritmonger]

I've got an issue - I ran an encounter recently with a gibbering mouther and my fifth edition players - a CR2 against four level 3 players, so it shouldn't have been too deadly.

But.

Under "Actions" under "Bites" it says: "If the target is killed by this damage, it is absorbed into the mouther."

Would a PC still have to fail three death saving throws? Would simply being knocked prone and knocked to 0 qualify as "killed" for being absorbed into the mouther? Would the mouther continue to attack, making the target fail death saving throws - and in that case, does the damage "kill" the player for the sake of this wording, or...?

Opinions? Thoughts? This, to me, depending on how it is interpreted, makes the Mouther hideously deadly.

[TrollCapAmerica]

I'm fairly certain that they would have to be actually dead dead.

as in no more
as in ceased to be
as in being an ex-Adventurer

[Giant2005]

Unless you are playing an old school game, you aren't dead when you hit 0 HP. That line in the bite comes into play if the attack hits hard enough to drop someone to 0 HP and kill them outright (By bringing them to negative their HP total).
They are stupid creatuers that act purely on instinct though and that instint is to bite, kill and absorb enemies so I think it is pretty likely that they would keep chomping on an unconscious foe until it fails 3 death saves and gets eaten, rather than finding another target.

[Feddlefew]

Unless you are playing an old school game, you aren't dead when you hit 0 HP. That line in the bite comes into play if the attack hits hard enough to drop someone to 0 HP and kill them outright (By bringing them to negative their HP total).
They are stupid creatuers that act purely on instinct though and that instint is to bite, kill and absorb enemies so I think it is pretty likely that they would keep chomping on an unconscious foe until it fails 3 death saves and gets eaten, rather than finding another target.

It's late and I'm half asleep, but why not do both? I can't remember of the top of my head if they're like oozes and can engulf or passively do damage to creatures they share space with.

[Battlebooze]

I remember a game of Morrow Project once, my character got shot in the head.

He checked his charts, I was decapitated on one chart and other said I was only "Seriously wounded."

The GM was merciful, so I didn't become the living head monster. I was disappointed.

[kaoskonfety]

Gonna agree with: Dead - as in requiring some form of resurrection.

View it as a resurrection prevention mechanic.

[Mr.Moron]

To my mind, it'd have to be causing enough damage to hit the instant death threshold.

Dropping to 0 isn't enough, the character isn't dead merely dying.

I suppose if it kept chewing on a PC after they're out of the fight, such that it kept forcing saving throws it'd swallow them on the last failed throw. However that's both generally more harsh than I'd run things, and also pretty sub-optimal from the standpoint of running a challenging encounter (wasting damage on an PC that's out of the game).

[Yrnes]

I agree with the consensus here, but keep in mind it's your game to run. If you feel like 0 hp is good enough for the mouther to have a snack, snack away.:smallsmile:

[Person_Man]

I would just house rule away the ability, because it's a terrible ability to use against a low level party. Abilities are supposed to add tactical depth, make combat more interesting, make monsters more unique. That ability just makes the game less fun. (Unless you enjoy old school gaming where dead = dead, in which case you should just remove Death Saves altogether).

[kaoskonfety]

I agree with the consensus here, but keep in mind it's your game to run. If you feel like 0 hp is good enough for the mouther to have a snack, snack away.:smallsmile:

If you do opt for it, its probably worth a challenge rating or several - cause yikes.

For CR calculation purposes it basically gets a damage bonus on any attack dropping a player to 0 of "Bonus damage of the players hit point maximum". I'm not sure if the rules even really support assigning it a CR at that point?

[Feddlefew]

I suspect, having looked over the entry, that pseudo-shoggoth isn't meant to be thrown one at a time against low level parties, but instead at mid-level parties in groups or with other monsters. Or maybe being used as a boss monster for a one shot, because some of these abilities (the insanity/confusion effect and passive ability to create difficult terrain stand out.) seem kind of nuts to throw a a low level party....

Edit: Okay, I'm not really sure what they were going for here. 67hp average, a basic attack that does 5d6 damage AND can be used in the same round as no less than three "you lose a turn"-type special abilities, and the ability to utterly destroy their victim's bodies, and yet they also only have AC 9, +2 to hit, and low save DCs for aforementioned abilities.

[Gritmonger]

I suspect, having looked over the entry, that pseudo-shoggoth isn't meant to be thrown one at a time against low level parties, but instead at mid-level parties in groups or with other monsters. Or maybe being used as a boss monster for a one shot, because some of these abilities (the insanity/confusion effect and passive ability to create difficult terrain stand out.) seem kind of nuts to throw a a low level party....

Agreed - party for the game I ran mostly stayed at range, but a person auditing the campaign with an NPC ended up dead dead due to a crit, and then beyond resurrection due to mouther consumption...

I was uncertain about it, enough that I almost told one of the players what they'd be facing, or considered changing the encounter.

[Shining Wrath]

I agree that they only consume those who have failed their 3 stabilization throws. The Mouther is an interesting exercise in tactics for the party; they are slow moving and can be whaled on from a distance, so long as you don't fail your save. They are precisely the sort of creature that ought to tempt a spell caster to burn a 2nd level spell slot or a fighter to burn a surge; a "OMG kill it fast kill it now" glass cannon.

[kaoskonfety]

I suspect, having looked over the entry, that pseudo-shoggoth isn't meant to be thrown one at a time against low level parties, but instead at mid-level parties in groups or with other monsters. Or maybe being used as a boss monster for a one shot, because some of these abilities (the insanity/confusion effect and passive ability to create difficult terrain stand out.) seem kind of nuts to throw a a low level party....

Edit: Okay, I'm not really sure what they were going for here. 67hp average, a basic attack that does 5d6 damage AND can be used in the same round as no less than three "you lose a turn"-type special abilities, and the ability to utterly destroy their victim's bodies, and yet they also only have AC 9, +2 to hit, and low save DCs for aforementioned abilities.

I'd counter with:

Its moves speed is a joke and none of its abilities have any serious range.

If you get ambushed by it in closed quarters: "good god run!". Otherwise its an excellent lesson in "the melee characters should bring bows too"


But ya, they play better as a complication in a high level fight than a low level confrontation (maybe with an Aboeth and its mixed bag expendable humanoid minions, seems on theme) - don't get dropped to zero... or dominated... or stand on the limited dry land, or fail the easy dc 10 will save stabbing your buddy... who is now at zero cause you stabbed him. Its a bit death spiral-y, could be fun for the big finalle to a major chapter or campaign.

[supergoji18]

I'm fairly certain that they would have to be actually dead dead.

as in no more
as in ceased to be
as in being an ex-Adventurer

It's a stiff!
Bereft of life!
It rests in peace!
If the mouther hadn't eaten it, it would be pushing up daisies!

[Feddlefew]

I'd counter with:

Its moves speed is a joke and none of its abilities have any serious range.

If you get ambushed by it in closed quarters: "good god run!". Otherwise its an excellent lesson in "the melee characters should bring bows too"


But ya, they play better as a complication in a high level fight than a low level confrontation (maybe with an Aboeth and its mixed bag expendable humanoid minions, seems on theme) - don't get dropped to zero... or dominated... or stand on the limited dry land, or fail the easy dc 10 will save stabbing your buddy... who is now at zero cause you stabbed him. Its a bit death spiral-y, could be fun for the big finalle to a major chapter or campaign.

I think you've nailed it- their stats read like they're meant to be a complication for a higher level fight, but there's nothing in the description to suggest that they're not meant to be used as a normal solo or group encounter.

[kaoskonfety]

I think you've nailed it- their stats read like they're meant to be a complication for a higher level fight, but there's nothing in the description to suggest that they're not meant to be used as a normal solo or group encounter.

Level 1-2 the big bad/serious fight (maybe backed up by a couple cultists) in a cult of madness themed dungeon for new players - have the monster explained to them as a likely threat outlining it abilities in fluffy detial "do not approch, their presence makes all the world go mad", they get to do a pile of damage and feel bad ass (unless they are dumb, then, learning oppertunity - pay attention to NPC advise). Teaches movement superiority and how AWFUL some of the statuses are. Everyone learns about saving throws and why you should pass them while we are at it.

A good early fight for setting tone if you are planning an old school "fighting in D&D will freaking kill you" styled game. Maybe toss in a totally avoidable sleeping dragon while you are at it. Not a small one.

They make an exellent level 3-8 "pit trap hazard" styled monster (any situation where you are "suddenly" next to it). At level 3 "oh hell! oh no! oh GODS! kill it kill it kill it!!" by level 6-9 still a real danger - "*should* we alpha strike it? bad saves happen"

Level 9+ enviromental hazard/damage sponge in a bigger fight.

For bonus points all of the above and the party will love (hate) you!

[Battlebooze]

I suspect, having looked over the entry, that pseudo-shoggoth isn't meant to be thrown one at a time against low level parties, but instead at mid-level parties in groups or with other monsters. Or maybe being used as a boss monster for a one shot, because some of these abilities (the insanity/confusion effect and passive ability to create difficult terrain stand out.) seem kind of nuts to throw a a low level party....

Edit: Okay, I'm not really sure what they were going for here. 67hp average, a basic attack that does 5d6 damage AND can be used in the same round as no less than three "you lose a turn"-type special abilities, and the ability to utterly destroy their victim's bodies, and yet they also only have AC 9, +2 to hit, and low save DCs for aforementioned abilities.

As you said, Gibbering Mouthers make good "complications" for mid level parties facing other foes. The only issue with this is that the critters aren't the cooperative kind of beast. Maybe smart bad guys could trap Mouthers in big ceramic pots and roll them at the PC's. :)

They are pretty good to throw at sleeping mid level PC's as the periodic "are your being cautious in the Dungeon" check.

[TrollCapAmerica]

It's a stiff!
Bereft of life!
It rests in peace!
If the mouther hadn't eaten it, it would be pushing up daisies!

Heh heh. Monty Python reference at 3am and it was perfectly apt. This is gonna be a good day

[Galen]

I've got an issue - I ran an encounter recently with a gibbering mouther and my fifth edition players - a CR2 against four level 3 players, so it shouldn't have been too deadly.

But.

Under "Actions" under "Bites" it says: "If the target is killed by this damage, it is absorbed into the mouther."

Would a PC still have to fail three death saving throws? Would simply being knocked prone and knocked to 0 qualify as "killed" for being absorbed into the mouther? Would the mouther continue to attack, making the target fail death saving throws - and in that case, does the damage "kill" the player for the sake of this wording, or...?

Opinions? Thoughts? This, to me, depending on how it is interpreted, makes the Mouther hideously deadly.

I would play it as the target being brought to 0 is absorbed into the mouther even if technically alive, and suffers a death save failure every turn. If the mouther is slain before three death saves are failed, the target is expelled and is still alive. I realize this is not RAW, and probably makes the mouther more dangerous than it was intended to be, so I'd bump up the XP to compensate.

[Cyan Wisp]

I mostly agree with Galen here.

Why would the mouther wait until the body is bereft of life? I would imagine that absorption would be equally feasible on an unconscious body. It just seems to make more sense.

I think that it would be appropriate to just run the victim's death saves as if they are bleeding out (i.e. no further damage on the absorbed victim, so no auto-fail Death Saves) but have a third rolled fail equal complete, irrevocable annihilation. It would be a horrible turn of events for the party, seeing their still-breathing friend being sucked into the Blob, and they would have hard decisions to make about their coming actions!


Ahh, Gibbering Mouthers. I love those guys.

[Ralanr]

I agree that they only consume those who have failed their 3 stabilization throws. The Mouther is an interesting exercise in tactics for the party; they are slow moving and can be whaled on from a distance, so long as you don't fail your save. They are precisely the sort of creature that ought to tempt a spell caster to burn a 2nd level spell slot or a fighter to burn a surge; a "OMG kill it fast kill it now" glass cannon.


I'm so glad I succeeded my saves when I grappled it...

[Shining Wrath]

I'm so glad I succeeded my saves when I grappled it...

You grappled a Mouther? That takes ... uh, let's agree to call it "courage".

I once used a Setting Sun maneuver on Lady Vol (Eberron arch-lich) and tossed her off the side of an airship. Unfortunately, she had Dimension Door prepared.

[Ralanr]

You grappled a Mouther? That takes ... uh, let's agree to call it "courage".

I once used a Setting Sun maneuver on Lady Vol (Eberron arch-lich) and tossed her off the side of an airship. Unfortunately, she had Dimension Door prepared.

I guess it would help to point out that at the time I and my character didn't really know what it was. And my character didn't care cause of rage flashback. I did not give it another chance to do anything when it was in his hands, not with that intense current nearby.

Edit: I was also level 5. That's probably another reason why I didn't...have horrible body fusion with that thing...