Double fighting style Monks.

[Falrin]

I noticed that Monks are concidered slightly underpowered. Yes they can run around, tumbling past monsters and make every save. But the feel stays they're not doing anything really usefull.

So I had a tought. As I'm already a fan of the Variant with Fighting Styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les), why not combine 2 different styles both matching the characters concept.

This gets them lots of feats, I know, but al set onces. (Also keep in mind that some PrC's Preq. might need some adjustment) But be honest, is the Undying way overpowered to ad to any character?

[Ramza00]

Okay what is the feat progression under your suggestion?

Second Monks are not underpowered if you have a friendly wizard who is willing to spare some spells to give you a hand. Without such spells (greater mage armor, greater mighty wallop, greater magic weapon, wraith strike in a ring of spell storing, blood wind in a ring of spell storing, and some form of flight spell) a monk utility sharply drops and the monk is the worse of the core classes competing with the bard.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay what is the feat progression under your suggestion?

Undying Way is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#undyingWay).


Second Monks are not underpowered if you have a friendly wizard who is willing to spare some spells to give you a hand. Without such spells (greater mage armor, greater mighty wallop, greater magic weapon, wraith strike in a ring of spell storing, blood wind in a ring of spell storing, and some form of flight spell) a monk utility sharply drops and the monk is the worse of the core classes competing with the bard.

This just proves that the monk is underpowered, since he can't do anything without help from Batman. I don't like it, but it is the truth (thus my Redux, see the link in my sig).

[Person_Man]

Monks suffer from a common problem in D&D, in that they lack a specialization.

They have no spells.
They have moderate Skill points off of a somewhat limited list.
They lack full BAB.
They lack high hit points.
They lack high AC.
Their defensive abilities overlap (why do you need high Saves, and immunities, and SR?)
They have serious MAD.
They have limited weapons.

They do lots of things poorly. But nothing exceptional. The only major party function Monks fulfill well is scout, and even then they don't do as good as a job at it as Rogues, Rangers, or Scouts (duh).

The best fix in my opinion would be to give them full BAB and remove the PrC's with Flurry progression.

[Ramza00]

This just proves that the monk is underpowered, since he can't do anything without help from Batman. I don't like it, but it is the truth (thus my Redux, see the link in my sig).

I wouldn't call it help from batman. The wizard is still a wizard, and the buffs he gives the monk just helps the party a lot, and thus help him in that way. A wizard should also be casting buffs on the party meleer no matter the reason. Casting haste or polymorph on the party fighter is often a very effective if not the most effective way to stop an enemy (the other two being battlefield control solid fog=you lose, or save or lose).

All the spells I listed are 3rd lvl or lower spells (what version of flight you use may be higher than 3rd lvl). A monk with a sorcerer cohort should be able to easily get them. Saying a monk can't be good for he needs a wizard is like saying a wizard isn't good for he needs a meat shield (at least from lvl 10 and below and to some extent from 10-15 depending how smart the wizard player is and his spell selection) to keep the monsters at bay while he cast his spells.

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Yes the monk by itself is not as strong as a wizard. Even with help he isn't as a good as a wizard. I ain't arguing that. I am arguing in a real game, without artificial "game board" constructs such as a monk resources are limited only to what his class levels and feats give and not to his party spell selection and items he can purchase, you can make a monk that can easily contribute to a party effectively. He may not be a good primary member in a team of 4 (no hitpoints thus even with the right spell selection his friends buff him with he won't tank, no skills or trapfinding for rogue/beguiler type character, and he isn't arcane or divine caster), but he can be a valued 5th team member (a backup warrior/rogue aid, an archer, a skirmishing fast moving hitter).

[Falrin]

On the wizard: Any core class gets very decent when a wizard gets him going. Spel storing ring with wraith strike on a monk or on a barbarian shock trooper?


So full BaB would be a good start. On this note, are their any good monk fixes around?

[elliott20]

So full BaB would be a good start. On this note, are their any good monk fixes around?
Yeah it's called the Swordsage

[Ramza00]

Yeah it's called the Swordsage
Yept the swordsage is good class much better than a monk and furthermore all the stuff I mentioned above with spells enhance the swordsage by the same degree. Thus a swordsage with those spells will be very better than a monk with those spells for a swordsage is just plain better mechanically.

[Matthew]

So full BaB would be a good start. On this note, are their any good monk fixes around?
There are quite a few in the Homebrew Forum. I would fix it with Full BAB, Improved, Greater and Perfect Flurry of Blows progression, the Homebrew Feats Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539), Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151#post1798151) and a Mobile Flurry of Blows Ability, which would result in:

Monk 20

Standard Attack: 16 / 16* / 16**
Full Attack: 16 / 16* / 16** / 11 / 11* / 11** / 6 / 6* / 6** / 1 / 1* / 1**

* Flurry of Blows
** Two Weapon Fighting

I would likely get rid of increased Unarmed Damage Dice in favour of HombrewWeapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31267) (Unarmed Combat) Bonus Feats at levels 1, 6, 11 and 16.