Eldritch Blast vs Longbow (warlock vs fighter archer)

[rollingForInit]

So, I'm going to try and build some sort of Arcane Archer type of character (flavoured as a demon hunter). Right now I'm leaning towards wanting to do an Eldritch Knight, with a couple of Wizard levels. Seems good enough. I've also been considering going for a pure Warlock, or a Lore Bard with 2 Warlock levels, and flavour Eldritch Blast as using a spectral bow or something like that. I feel more inclined to go with the EK, though.

However, another player in the group will likely do some sort of blaster build with 2 levels of Warlock. Is there any way to actually have better DPS than that? At level 20, the Warlock would have 4 attack rolls, for a total of 4d10+2 damage, no matter if it's multiclassed or not. An Eldritch Knight would have 4d8+20 for a pure class, or 3d8+15 for if multiclassed. The EK would get the +2 to hit from Figthing Style, but does that really compensate for doing 3d8+15 instead of 4d10+20 damage? Or even 4d8+20? And that's not even counting the damage from Hex and enhancements to EB.

I wouldn't worry about it so much in general, but it'd be pretty boring to build a character that's supposed to be an Arcane Archer that does a lot of ranged damage, and then just get destroyed in effectiveness by the Warlock (or Sorcerer/Bard with 2 Warlock levels). Since I know another playing will be going that route. Which makes me think that maybe I should go for a Warlock as well (my group has no issues with several people playing the same class) if I want to keep up with the sniping.

What do you think?

[dev6500]

Fighter archery will probably do slightly better dpr than a pure warlock.

4 (d10 +5) attacks at +11 without items for the warlock

vs.

5 (d6 + 5) attacks at +13 with a non magical hand crossbow for the fighter.

Add in 1 +3 magical weapon or rod for each character and damage should increase more for fighter than pure warlock.

If they do a warlock dip before going full sorcerer then there will be some trouble. Their rounds with quickened eldritch blast will be pretty strong and may be somewhat comparable to the fighters action surge rounds.

On the other hand, the warlock sorcerer character will have a slower start and won't come into its own until at least 5th level.

[SharkForce]

fighter sustained DPR will be higher with feats (using a hand crossbow, that is. see if you can track down the chart that tells you when to take -5 hit for +10 damage on these forums somewhere, it will help) than the warlock's sustained DPR with hex, but not by a large amount.

as noted, magic items will usually tip the scales further in the fighter's favour.

[Easy_Lee]

You can always use the EK 8 / Warlock 12 build I've suggested before. You invest in CHA instead of intellect, picking up EK spells like shield where your intellect doesn't matter, and take the war caster feat. Two levels into warlock you get agonizing blast, and by level 11 it hits three times. EK lets you make a bonus action attack after casting a cantrip, any cantrip regardless of the class it comes from, meaning you can bonus action longbow attack after each EB.

Combined with the warlock's superior casting potential, invocations, and the fighter long rest slots for things like shield and expeditious retreat, I think it's an overall superior build to pure EK. Your at-will DPR will also flatly beat the pure warlock's. Finally, con proficiency is build into the build, so you'll almost never lose your spells.

[Giant2005]

That +2 to hit from the Archery style really is more significant and imo more than makes up for the difference in damage. The Warlock will hit harder but you will hit far more reliably and have a higher average damage per round as a consequence. If you take Sharpshooter, the opposite is true - he will be more accurate, you will do more damage and whoever does more damage per round will depend entirely on the creature's AC (Or you could stop using Sharpshooter and probably beat him).
However you can pretty much ignore all of the above if your friend plans on taking two Warlock levels and putting the rest into Sorcerer. In that case his damage is comparable to yours except for the fact that he can essentially use Action Surge (Quicken Spell) multiple times per day and if he is willing to cash in all of his spell slots and make EB his main thing, then he could essentially Action Surge every round of combat every day. There is nothing you could do to compete with damage like that. If he takes Warcaster and fights in a position where he reliably gets himself Opportunity Attacks, then those full powered reactions would also increase his damage levels to something you couldn't compete with; although from what you have said that doesn't sound likely.

Truthfully, I'd recommend you play the Warlock 2/Sorc X and refluff EB to be some kind of bow attack if the mechanics really are that important to you. Or you could go with your concept and do your best to ignore the disparity.

[Malifice]

I like Fighter (EK) 13, Ranger 4, Rogue 3

1d8+1d6+2d6+15 damage on the first shot (with hunters mark). 2d8+1d6+15 on the second. 1d8+1d6+15 on remainging shots (from 1-4 with action surge).

7d8+8d6+90 is good Nova damage damage. Vs AC 15 = 150 x 65%, or around 100 DPR

4d8+5d6+45 DPR on rounds youre not action surging (Around 60 DPR vs AC 15)

A magic bow brings these numbers up considerably.

Decent suite of class features and high HP with Indomitable (2), cunning action, expertise (perception and stealth probably), 2 fighting styles (archery and one more), second wind, favored enemy, natural explorer, weapon bond, war magic, eldritch strike, 3rd level spells known from Wizard, 1st level from Ranger and Rogue, and 5 feats/ ASI.

Also Bard (lore) 6/ Fighter (EK) 11, Assasin 3 works

With elemental weapon (using your 5th level slot) instead of hunters mark up, your DPR goes up to:

6d8+2d6+12d4, and with a +2 higher attack bonus, youll do around 115 damage with action surge vs AC15 and 75 DPR without (vs AC15). Ambush damage is a lot higher thanks to auto-crit when surprised.

Will also have expertise in 4 skills, proficiency in 7+background+race skills, and half bonus in the rest... and 5th level spell slots. At bard 6 take hunters mark (or hex for the laughs) and elemental weapon as your spells known.

[BootStrapTommy]

Why longbow when you can heavy crossbow?

Variant human Fighter with Crossbow Expert can shoot 20 more feet, fire in melee, and uses d10 like Eldritch Blast.

[Submortimer]

as noted, magic items will usually tip the scales further in the fighter's favour.

it seems to me that most people forget about the Pact Wand. A +3 pact wand is functionally the same as a +3 longbow in this case.

[Person_Man]

Warlock, Evoker Wizard, Dragon Sorcerer, Light Cleric, Valor Bard, Assassin Rogue, Fighter, and Ranger all have effective at-will-ish ranged damage. The differences in average damage are pretty small in the long run. (Though in the short run, specific class/feat/spell combos can be significantly better at certain class levels). So I would pick which build to play based on other roles you'd like to fill.

Assassin Rogue is one of the best single target damage dealers, and also has great Skills, mobility, and defense.

Fighter is a reliable source of at-will and burst (Action Surge) damage, but not much else.

Hunter Ranger is similar to Fighter but is also a great scout. Beastmaster Ranger with a giant badger/panther/wolf gets solid damage output (though the specifics of whether your DM allows Multiattack and/or Bonus Actions for your Companion matter a lot) and somebody to stand between him and enemies. A small Beastmaster Ranger with a medium pteranodon gets a mount that can fly really really quickly.

Spellcaster roles are highly dependent on your spell choices.

So other then damage, what are you interested in doing? And when you say "Arcane Archer" do you mean strictly arcane magic (and not divine), or just "guy who uses magic and a bow"?

[rollingForInit]

Lots of nice suggestions!


Why longbow when you can heavy crossbow?

Variant human Fighter with Crossbow Expert can shoot 20 more feet, fire in melee, and uses d10 like Eldritch Blast.

I totally forgot about that, actually. Thanks. Flavourwise I think I'd rather go with dual-wielding hand crossbows if my DM allows it, though.



So other then damage, what are you interested in doing? And when you say "Arcane Archer" do you mean strictly arcane magic (and not divine), or just "guy who uses magic and a bow"?

I'm interested in building a demon hunter. The main reason I wouldn't go Ranger is that I want cantrips, and they don't get them (and I want more than the two you'd get from Magic Initiate). Also, their magic feels a bit too nature-ish, whereas I'd want more Wizard-like spells, e.g. protection spells, illusions, evocation spells, etc. Whichever way I go, I'll make sure to have a very decent Intelligence score, and that I can grab Investigation and Arcana as skills. Probably Survival as well. I'm also very keen on playing a Fire Genasi, even though it doesn't get any bonuses to relevant attack ability scores.

[SharkForce]

it seems to me that most people forget about the Pact Wand. A +3 pact wand is functionally the same as a +3 longbow in this case.

weapons add bonus to hit and damage. unless i'm remembering wrong, the pact rod adds only to hit.

which is why magic items generally favours the fighter. both benefit, but the fighter benefits more.

[hawklost]

EB - up to 1d10 without Magic items
- Normal 120 ft
- Can target up to 4 enemies

- Can have knock back effect (invocation)
- Range up to 300 (invocation)
- Can have +Cha to each hit (invocation)

* Range increase to 600ft and ignore all but full cover (FEAT)

Heavy Crossbow up to 1d10 + Dex without magic
- Range 100/400
- Requires 2 hands

- Potential for +2 to attack (Class Features)

* Can shoot at 400 without penalty, ignore all but full cover and take -5 hit to get +10 damage (FEAT)
* Can get up to 4 attacks instead of 1, ignore dis for melee firing (FEAT)

So if you look at the base of Heavy Crossbow vs EB, the EB is far superior with damage

If you try to Maximize both of them though, they get really close to each other

EB has longer Range by 200 ft
EB requires an open hand but not 2 open hands
EB Can knock 4 people back 10 ft or (if allowed) 1 person back 40ft
Warlock has 1 less Feat compared to a Fighter version (or +1 Feat compared to any other Class)
Crossbow ignores Melee Penalty that EB still has
Crossbow can get -5 for a +10 if AC of opponent is low
Crossbow gets +2 to attack (assuming Class Feature) over EB

Now if you add magic items in
Warlock gets +3 to attack but not damage
Crossbow gets +3 to attack And Damage.

As you can see, both have their own advantages vs disadvanges. If you are focused purely on Damage at higher levels than the Heavy Crossbow does more but if you want a little more utility for the cost of 3 invocations than the EB allows you to push as well.

[Myzz]

Archer can also get +3 ammunition that stacks with +3 weapon...

In regards to Feats, the Warlock would burn 1 less actual Feat, but a higher percentage of his total feats...

[SharkForce]

sharpshooter is worth it on many targets, not just low AC ones.

the math is a bit annoying to explain, depends on a variety of factors, and there is in fact a table around here somewhere that tells you when to use it (provided you have the information available to act on).

[silveralen]

Yes, just remember:

1. Feats help. Crossbow expert or sharpshooter (both ideally) can create more at will damage.

2. The archery fighting style is powerful (even moreso with sharpshooter).

3. EK buffs can help even the playing field further (as warlock will likely have a buff going normally).

4. Multi classing can negate everything I just said if done poorly. You want to time it so you get haste by the time the warlock gets his third attack, and your fourth attack by the time he gets his fourth. Greater invisibility is also a good choice for sharpshooter (advantage plus the basic +2 from the fighting style puts your accuracy at default more or less).

My recommendation for multiclassing would be 6 levels of EK, 7 levels of wizard, then 7 more levels of EK. This has the advantage of spacing your attribute increases out fairly well, you gain haste at level 11 so you keep pace with EB, you can grab greater invisibility and then get your third attack at level 18, only one behind warlock. You can also stop at wizard 5 if you don't want greater invisibility.

Another alternative worth mentioning is straight ranger. They have a lot of arcane archer type spells keep pace with warlock fairly well and have a decent late game alternative to hand crossbows with swift quiver.

[rollingForInit]

4. Multi classing can negate everything I just said if done poorly. You want to time it so you get haste by the time the warlock gets his third attack, and your fourth attack by the time he gets his fourth. Greater invisibility is also a good choice for sharpshooter (advantage plus the basic +2 from the fighting style puts your accuracy at default more or less).


Wait ... how can you time multiclassing so the EK gets his fourth attack by the time the Warlock gets the fourth? If you multiclass an EK you never get a 4th attack at all? If went EK6/Wiz5 I'd get Haste by the time the EK gets his 3rd attack.

[silveralen]

Wait ... how can you time multiclassing so the EK gets his fourth attack by the time the Warlock gets the fourth? If you multiclass an EK you never get a 4th attack at all? If went EK6/Wiz5 I'd get Haste by the time the EK gets his 3rd attack.

Fourth attack meaning 3 attacks+haste, so you want to have both the spell haste and 11 levels of EK by level 17 ideally.

[Mandragola]

One (slightly weird!) thing you can be is a pact of the blade warlock who makes a pact hand-crossbow.

Another thing to bear in mind is that warlocks actually do not have hex running all the time. In fact it's seeming to me that they will have it less and less as they level up - not because anything in particular goes wrong with it but because they start to use their very limited supply of spell slots to cast "proper" spells. Once a warlock has fireball for instance, he tends to want to do that with his slots instead of hex. So the end result is not so much hexing, but only because the warlock has better things to do. It feels odd to cast hex with a level 5 slot, when you could drop

This doesn't happen to rangers, because they carry on having plenty of level 1 slots later on when they are high level.

For burst damage you definitely want some assassin in the mix. You've got a high dex, so why not also be sneaky? So now if you can get a surprise round, all your attacks are crits. Sad times for the bad guys!

[Myzz]

Another thing to bear in mind is that warlocks actually do not have hex running all the time. In fact it's seeming to me that they will have it less and less as they level up - not because anything in particular goes wrong with it but because they start to use their very limited supply of spell slots to cast "proper" spells. Once a warlock has fireball for instance, he tends to want to do that with his slots instead of hex. So the end result is not so much hexing, but only because the warlock has better things to do. It feels odd to cast hex with a level 5 slot, when you could drop

This doesn't happen to rangers, because they carry on having plenty of level 1 slots later on when they are high level.



I'd think that as a Lock levels up Hex is like American Express, never leave camp without it! If its lasting for 8 hours or 24 hours, that's essentially all day. The idea that you need to have a bunch of crikets or whatever on hand to hex then kill seems silly since you can move your Hex at any point after you kill the target with it. No duration. No distance elements! Before breaking camp hex and kill pretty much anything... short rest to get your slot back and then go on about your business!

<edit add: And if your Fiend Lock, you just got your Temp HP too>

[SharkForce]

fireball does not compete with hex. a spell like haste, now that would compete with hex. or hold person, that would compete with hex too. but fireball? just wake up an hour early, cast hex, take a short rest while everyone is napping, and carry on with your day with hex still running.

[Mandragola]

Fireball does absolutely compete with hex. Maybe not at level 20, but when you get it, it's amazing. If there is a room full of guys then the option of doing all of them 10d6 damage all at once is competitive.

It may not do as much damage over the course of a day, but so what? The bad guys are dead, or are in a severely weakened state and can be easily finished off. Fireball is often an extremely efficient way to do a whole lot of damage all at once and, as a rule, you have to take all the enemy's hp away to win the fight.

[SharkForce]

Fireball does absolutely compete with hex. Maybe not at level 20, but when you get it, it's amazing. If there is a room full of guys then the option of doing all of them 10d6 damage all at once is competitive.

It may not do as much damage over the course of a day, but so what? The bad guys are dead, or are in a severely weakened state and can be easily finished off. Fireball is often an extremely efficient way to do a whole lot of damage all at once and, as a rule, you have to take all the enemy's hp away to win the fight.

that's nice and all, but by the time you get hex it lasts all day, can be cast before the rest of the party wakes up and then the slot can be regained with a short rest, and since fireball does not require concentration, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from keeping your hex running and casting fireball at the same time.

spells that require concentration compete with hex. spells that don't require concentration do not compete with hex, because it is trivially easy to get it up and running and lasting a whole day from a single slot after a few levels unless something breaks your concentration.

[BootStrapTommy]

I totally forgot about that, actually. Thanks. Flavourwise I think I'd rather go with dual-wielding hand crossbows if my DM allows it, though.
As awesome thematic as this is (gunslinger!), it only buys you an extra attack. With a d6 weapon...

[silveralen]

As awesome thematic as this is (gunslinger!), it only buys you an extra attack. With a d6 weapon...

That's why you combine it with sharpshooter and a 20 dex. 1d6+15 is nothing to sneer at (and why archery fighting style is always useful). For an EK certain spells give you even more mileage, like hunter's mark/hex (MC only, enlarge for a less useful in class version) or greater invisibility.

[Malifice]

that's nice and all, but by the time you get hex it lasts all day, can be cast before the rest of the party wakes up and then the slot can be regained with a short rest.

RAW, you cant break a long rest an hour early to cast hex and then use the final 1 hour of your long rest as a short rest to recover slots. All you do is have two short rests in a row (one of 7 hours, and one of 1 hour) while the rest of the party have an 8 hour long rest.

Also, RAI, not many DM's would allow this. Thats a subjective call though. Maybe yours would. I wouldnt.

Simply cast hex on the first round on the first combat after your Long Rest the night before. It'll last all day with a 5th level slot (barring casting another concentration spell or failing a concentration check that day for some other reason like being damaged).

[rollingForInit]

that's nice and all, but by the time you get hex it lasts all day, can be cast before the rest of the party wakes up and then the slot can be regained with a short rest, and since fireball does not require concentration, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from keeping your hex running and casting fireball at the same time.

spells that require concentration compete with hex. spells that don't require concentration do not compete with hex, because it is trivially easy to get it up and running and lasting a whole day from a single slot after a few levels unless something breaks your concentration.

I wouldn't allow a Warlock do that - he needs the same amount of rest as the others. Unless you're an elf and houserule that they only need 4 hours. But otherwise ... there's a lot preventing you from waking up an hour early. You could of course force the party to take a 9-hour-rest, but would they be willing to wait for you for an entire hour every morning? When you're on an important quest? I'm sceptical.

I'd probably disallow using it that way, and say that you'd have to curse something of significance. Or that there just aren't any animals nearby to curse. Or I'd allow it to work sometimes, but sometimes the animal you curse gets so scared that it bolts, and you aren't fast enough to kill. After all, what guarantee is there that you will always succeed, when a lot of small animals are very fast? And then, completely wasted spell slot. That should be a very real risk from trying to abuse it like that. Actually, I already like this idea more than simply forbidding it. Also works if you try to curse some slow-moving insect. Now you see it ... then it disappears in the underbrush, you can't aim at it properly, and then you don't manage to kill it. I'd probably roll some dice to decide whether the Warlock manages to make it work or not.

I agree that Hex is probably very strong at any pont, and doesn't compete with spells like Fireball. But even if you have to break it, I don't think it's the end of the world. You can always cast it again.


As awesome thematic as this is (gunslinger!), it only buys you an extra attack. With a d6 weapon...

Yeah, I'd mostly go with it for the theme. Still, it seems quite competitive in terms of damage, especially as your modifiers go up, actually outscaling Eldritch Blast/Heavy Crossbow by a slim margin.

[Mandragola]

Two issues with hand crossbows though:

1: you don't add your stay bonus for dual-wielding unless you have the fighting style somehow, or your GM lets you do it with just one of them.

2. It uses your bonus action - which you very often need to use to transfer hex.

You can have a pact heavy crossbow that ends up adding cha to damage though. If someone's kind enough to haste you then things get fun.

[silveralen]

Two issues with hand crossbows though:

1: you don't add your stay bonus for dual-wielding unless you have the fighting style somehow, or your GM lets you do it with just one of them.

2. It uses your bonus action - which you very often need to use to transfer hex.

You can have a pact heavy crossbow that ends up adding cha to damage though. If someone's kind enough to haste you then things get fun.

1. Actually you do. Two weapon fighting rules only apply to melee/thrown weapons. You can't use two weapon fighting with hand crossbows at all normally, so those rules don't apply. The crossbow feat lets you make a bonus action attack with an offhand crossbow. It does not let you use two weapon fighting with a hand crossbow. That means the other two weapon fighting rules (such as the lack of attribute mod) don't apply, as this is something unique.

2. This is more of an issue, but he was looking at EK and Wizard, who don't even get hex. For a warlock, yes EB is by far easier to use, he is comparing archery via another class to EB warlock.

Also, I'm fairly certain you can't make a crossbow a pact weapon by RAW regardless.

[Easy_Lee]

Crossbow Expert only partially works with EB.

You have to attack with a one handed weapon in order to qualify to bonus attack with a hand crossbow, so EB + crossbow shot is not possible for most warlocks.
Crossbow Expert does remove the penalty for ranged attacks in melee range, so that part works.
An EK 7 or valor bard 14 who gets EB can cast it and still make one attack with a weapon that round as per their archetype features, including crossbows (in the bard's case, he must get EB through magical secrets because the archetype feature specifies bard spells).

[rollingForInit]

I started considering the Valor Bard, as well. That should be pretty viable, for something a bit heavier on spellcasting, right?

If I'd start at level 6+ (which is likely), take 6 levels of Bard, then 1 fighter for Archery fighting style. Or start Fighter for Con saves, maybe? Steal Swift Quiver at 10 ... and would it be worth it to steal Hunter's Mark instead of something more area of effect-ish like Fireball?

Building that like the other archery builds here, with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, that should be pretty decent, right? With some more magic utility outside combat.

[silveralen]

Start fighter for con isn't a bad idea, and yeah valor bars works great. I probably wouldn't bother stealing hunter's mark as bard, you already have some fairly good options (fairy fire is a good low level pick I think). Might be worth it though.

For sure grab swift quiver and consider if you want to use handcrossbows or not. Both swift quiver and crossbow expert take bonus actions, so it might be redundant a lot of the time. I'm actually not sure if greater invisibility+handcrossbow beats swift quiver+heavy crossbow/longbow. I might check it he math later.

Your biggest worry is getting all the stats and feats you need (another reason to possibly skip crossbow expert). You will likely have to skimp on some CHA.

[rollingForInit]

Yeah, since I'd be focusing on Dexterity for attack and damage, I'd probably go for 20 Dex and leave Charisma at 16. Well, flavour-wise I'd try to convince my DM to let me use Intelligence as spellcasting ability, so leaving that at 16. 16 feels decent if not optimal for spellcasting if I were going to cast some sort of attack spells or disables, especially if I'd get my hands on some magical item later on. But I'd focus on using magic for buffs or utility.

It would actually suit my demon hunter concept pretty great, with the whole jack of all trades, having expertise in skills, and so on.

Not sure where I'll end up, but it's looking like Valor Bard/Fighter, Warlock or EK/Wizard. All of them seem pretty great.

[Person_Man]

Not sure where I'll end up, but it's looking like Valor Bard/Fighter, Warlock or EK/Wizard. All of them seem pretty great.

Minor Note: It does not make sense to take 5 levels of any two sub-classes that offer Extra Attack, because they do not stack, and thus you'd have a wasted/dead level. Similarly, certain multi-class combinations waste weapons and armor proficiencies, since gaining them twice does nothing.

So you might want to do Fighter 7/Lore Bard, but probably wouldn't want to do Fighter/Valor Bard.

This is particularly noteworthy for the EK Fighter 7 or higher, since Extra Attack is already a mostly wasted class feature, since he usually ends up doing Cantrip + Bonus Action weapon attack most turns.

[silveralen]

Yeah, since I'd be focusing on Dexterity for attack and damage, I'd probably go for 20 Dex and leave Charisma at 16. Well, flavour-wise I'd try to convince my DM to let me use Intelligence as spellcasting ability, so leaving that at 16. 16 feels decent if not optimal for spellcasting if I were going to cast some sort of attack spells or disables, especially if I'd get my hands on some magical item later on. But I'd focus on using magic for buffs or utility.

It would actually suit my demon hunter concept pretty great, with the whole jack of all trades, having expertise in skills, and so on.

Not sure where I'll end up, but it's looking like Valor Bard/Fighter, Warlock or EK/Wizard. All of them seem pretty great.

So long as you are careful to plan the MC a bit you can't go wrong really. All three work well. I think Valor bard+fighter is probably the easiest path, especially if you don't plan to take too many blasty spells in any case, but none of them are bad.

[rollingForInit]

Minor Note: It does not make sense to take 5 levels of any two sub-classes that offer Extra Attack, because they do not stack, and thus you'd have a wasted/dead level. Similarly, certain multi-class combinations waste weapons and armor proficiencies, since gaining them twice does nothing.

So you might want to do Fighter 7/Lore Bard, but probably wouldn't want to do Fighter/Valor Bard.

This is particularly noteworthy for the EK Fighter 7 or higher, since Extra Attack is already a mostly wasted class feature, since he usually ends up doing Cantrip + Bonus Action weapon attack most turns.

Oh yeah, for the Valor Bard/Fighter I was just thinking 1 level of fighter for Archery, which feels really worth it since it's +2. I'll probably take a level of Wizard for more utility spells and cantrips (I really want more than three cantrips, so I proritise the fluff there pretty heavily). Our campaign isn't likely to last to level 20, but even if it did I think I'd be fine with that.


So long as you are careful to plan the MC a bit you can't go wrong really. All three work well. I think Valor bard+fighter is probably the easiest path, especially if you don't plan to take too many blasty spells in any case, but none of them are bad.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of good suggestions here :) Gonna discuss it with the group as well and see what they think.

[Easy_Lee]

Oh yeah, for the Valor Bard/Fighter I was just thinking 1 level of fighter for Archery, which feels really worth it since it's +2. I'll probably take a level of Wizard for more utility spells and cantrips (I really want more than three cantrips, so I proritise the fluff there pretty heavily). Our campaign isn't likely to last to level 20, but even if it did I think I'd be fine with that.

Are you going to be using EB + longbow attack as your attack roll? If so, it may not be worth it to take the fighter level. It depends on how many bow attacks you make at each level.

Assuming that you pick up EB and the cantrip early, you could use that as your attack and would not need the fighter level. On the other hand, if you'll be using your bow attack primarily until bard 14+, after which you would presumably take two levels of warlock for the agonizing invocation, then it would make sense to start fighter for archery and CON proficiency.

I'd probably go warlock 2/lore bard X in that order. From magical secrets, I would obtain Swift quiver at bard 10. Swift quiver let's you bonus action fire two arrow shots regardless of what else you did that round. You don't need valor bard for that. So, as long as you have war caster, it would be no problem to make 5-6 attack rolls per turn; 3-4 from EB with charisma, and 2 from swift quiver.

If you feel that archery on the two arrow shots is worth it, then I would take fighter 1 first for con proficiency. That said, doing so will delay your progression.

[Person_Man]

Oh yeah, for the Valor Bard/Fighter I was just thinking 1 level of fighter for Archery, which feels really worth it since it's +2. I'll probably take a level of Wizard for more utility spells and cantrips (I really want more than three cantrips, so I proritise the fluff there pretty heavily). Our campaign isn't likely to last to level 20, but even if it did I think I'd be fine with that.

I agree that Archery Fighting Style is nifty, especially if you make a ton of attack rolls every game day.

But from a metagame perspective, just keep in mind that if you're playing a Bard (or any full caster), you're not going to be missing very often with weapon attacks. When you face an enemy with high AC you'll most likely be using spells.

You can also get more cantrips with the Magic Initiate Feat (and a nice DM might let you take it more then once if its really that big of a deal for you), and get all of the Wizards Rituals with Ritual Caster.

[rollingForInit]

Are you going to be using EB + longbow attack as your attack roll? If so, it may not be worth it to take the fighter level. It depends on how many bow attacks you make at each level.

Assuming that you pick up EB and the cantrip early, you could use that as your attack and would not need the fighter level. On the other hand, if you'll be using your bow attack primarily until bard 14+, after which you would presumably take two levels of warlock for the agonizing invocation, then it would make sense to start fighter for archery and CON proficiency.

I'd probably go warlock 2/lore bard X in that order. From magical secrets, I would obtain Swift quiver at bard 10. Swift quiver let's you bonus action fire two arrow shots regardless of what else you did that round. You don't need valor bard for that. So, as long as you have war caster, it would be no problem to make 5-6 attack rolls per turn; 3-4 from EB with charisma, and 2 from swift quiver.

If you feel that archery on the two arrow shots is worth it, then I would take fighter 1 first for con proficiency. That said, doing so will delay your progression.

I wouldn't be multiclassing into Warlock at all with the Valor Bard. Really wouldn't fit the concept for that. I can see how it'd be good for complete optimisation, but I'd rather avoid the Warlock EB cheese with this one. Our progression is generally slow, so I'd rather have fun now and for the next few levels, even if it means I won't be completely optimised later. So I guess I'd mostly be using Swift Quiver after level 10 for attacks. Maybe not quite as good as if I had Eldritch Blast, but ... that one just doesn't sit well with me.

Doing the Lore Bard/Warlock 2 sounds like something I could definitely do for a dungeon crawl though.

I do have a Warlock in mind as an alternative, though. For him, I'd go all out on EB, of course. :)


I agree that Archery Fighting Style is nifty, especially if you make a ton of attack rolls every game day.

But from a metagame perspective, just keep in mind that if you're playing a Bard (or any full caster), you're not going to be missing very often with weapon attacks. When you face an enemy with high AC you'll most likely be using spells.

You can also get more cantrips with the Magic Initiate Feat (and a nice DM might let you take it more then once if its really that big of a deal for you), and get all of the Wizards Rituals with Ritual Caster.

Yeah, that's true. I do kind of see Valor Bard more as my alternative to Eldritch Knight, just more on the magic side rather than martial. I like the idea of Eldritch Knight, it's just ... so few spells and spell slots. Although I guess multiclassing for Wizard could compensate a bit there.

[Easy_Lee]

Got it. If you do go full valor bard and swift quiver, then I agree with Person_man that it's a trade. In that case, I would tend to agree that going pure bard would be more beneficial in a balanced party.

If you don't have a balanced party, if you need to be a primary damage dealer, or if you really need the extra to-hit, then taking fighter 1 first for archery and CON prof is reasonable.

[rollingForInit]

Thanks for the feedback :)