That damn Shivering Touch...

[lunasmeow]

So, I thought I'd countered Shivering Touch. I really did.

We were fighting an undead cult that worshiped Vecna, by the player's own choices, so it wasn't even like I'd DM forced it. There were tons of undead around, and a dracolich. Then my player uses a Suddenly Maximized Shivering Touch.

I say, shivering touch doesn't affect undead. He points to a feat he recently took at his previous level up. Piercing Cold.

Type: Metamagic
Source: Frostburn
Your cold spells are so cold that they can damage creatures normally resistant or immune to cold.

Benefit: You can only apply this metamagic feat to spells with the cold descriptor. Piercing cold spells are so horribly cold that they are capable of damaging creatures normally unharmed by or resistant to cold. Piercing cold spells completely ignore any resistance to cold a creature possesses, bypassing this resistance and dealing damage to the target as if it did not possess any resistance to cold at all. They are still entitled to whatever other defenses the attack allows (such as saving throws and spell resistance).

Creatures normally immune to cold can be damaged by piercing cold spells as well. Piercing cold spells deal half damage to these creatures (or one-quarter on a successful saving throw).

For example, Mialee casts a piercing cold cone of cold at a night hag, a creature normally immune to cold. She makes her level check to penetrate the night hag's spell resistance, but the night hag makes her Reflex save against the spell. Mialee rolls the dice, and her cone of cold deals 42 points of cold damage; since the night hag made her save, the damage is halved to 21 points. This damage is then halved again (since the night hag is normally immune to cold), and 10 points of cold damage are actually dealt to the night hag, who is both shocked and enraged at this unexpected turn of events.

Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack.

Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double normal damage instead of the usual +50%.

A piercing cold spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.


How the hell do I counter that, without giving every singe enemy the cold subtype?

[Roentgen]

Undead are immune to ability damage/drain, regardless of immunity to cold I would have thought.

[jordan.k93]

Lets call Shivering Touch monkey wizard, "Pillock".

Lets say you have 4 Players

Lets say every player demands as much countering as "Pillock" does

You are suddenly limited to fighting Celestial Undead Intelligent Incorporeal Cold Oozes with +20 saves and 20 touch AC.

Thanks Pillock.

........Seriously less sarcasm below........

Basically you need to slap your players. When you have to spend a good hour thinking of how to counter a particular ability, then you are dangerously close to DM Burn Out. Talk to the offender and be honest: "I am unwilling to spend that much of my RL time to counter your Shivering Touch auto win BS, lose the spell or the DM." (Please adjust for desired amount of hostility.)

It all comes down to playing nice. Pillock is not playing nice at all.

[RoyVG]

I'm not sure if Piercing Cold is supposed to work on Ability damage... Well I guess it could work that way.

Anyway, as pointed out, Undead are immune to ability damage to their physical ability scores. Even if you allow Piercing Cold to work, it won't help on undead, not because of their Cold Immunity or subtype, no, they are immune because they are Undead. The Shivering Touch would not work on Undead because it deals dexterity damage, to which undead are specifically immune to.

I believe I have said it too much in one post, but yeah... they are immune. You are safe from these shenanigans.

[Telonius]

Right. It would work on (for example) a Frost Giant, since those things are usually immune to cold but generally subject to ability damage. It wouldn't work on a Construct, since they're not subject to ability damage or drain. It would work for full damage on everything else, unless they have some separate way to mitigate ability damage (a Strongheart Vest, binding Naberius, or some other defense).

If it were just dealing regular Cold damage, it would be different. A Cone of Cold (metamagicked by Piercing Cold) would work on a typical undead for half damage. They're usually immune to cold damage, so they only take half; but there's nothing else that would allow them to resist it.

A Cone of Cold (metamagicked by Piercing Cold) would deal full damage to an Ice Devil, since they only have Resistance to Cold, not outright immunity.

[Vrock_Summoner]

The fact that you didn't know he had that feat until it came up in combat concerns me strongly. At any rate, though, Piercing Cold isn't the real problem here... Shivering Touch is just a "ban it on principle" spell.

Though in this particular example, it's as others have said: undead are immune to ability damage and drain, so Shivering Touch does nothing anyway.

So the best way to remove the problem is just talking to him about it. Maybe let him build a new character since he's put so much of his build resource into this idea. If talking doesn't work...

For countering it, well, in the words of my favorite webcomic wizard, "counterspelling is a legitimate, if seldom used, means of neutralizing a spellcaster."

Or give him a taste of his own medicine. Have a dragon built for Initiative use a (Sudden?) Maximized Shivering Touch against him, then see if the example doesn't make him more open to negotiating it out of the game.

[Mystia]

Shivering touch isn't that OP when you think about it properly... on later levels, there are several stronger stuff that spellcasters may use. Either way, it isn't difficult to counter either. Simply throw enemies immune to ability damage against your players, be it from their type (undead, construct), or be it from having an item/buff that wards against that (Sheltered Vitality, Talisman of Undying Fortitude, Body Ward...), not to mention common ways of shutting down spells (counterspelling, AMFs, blocking LoS).

You shouldn't be too paranoid and only throw that sort of foe against them, though. You see, he is still spending resources and wasting a round or part of one to do that. It would be unreasonable to have every mook suddenly be buffed/using expensive items, but this is the reason why they're mooks - because they're disposable, and they are many. Even if he is able to disable one each round, that's something the players should be able to do on a regular basis.
Save that stuff for the stronger foes, like officers, captains, bosses, and such. They're supposed to be strong and challenging - and for them to be so, they're supposed to have all kinds of nice things, after all. It would be unreasonable for them not to have all sorts of items and buffs up at the moment of the fight.

[thecrimsondawn]

Easy counter. You are thinking in terms of monsters only here. If you toss any type of cleric, high level arcane caster, or a monster or being that is able to cast - you can have spells like death ward up that piercing cold will not help vs.

Alt method 2 - hard love
Use Blood to Water - 7th level cleric spell from dragon mag. 1d6 con damage /2 levels
Its an insta kill, even my a scroll in most cases and its a fort save - something casters often lack a lot of :3

[Metahuman1]

This has already been said, but, in this case, your player got around 1 type of defense these enemy's have. There were 2, so unless he also has something to bypass that, it doesn't work as used, and he just wasted his daily use of sudden maximize.

[Shining Wrath]

As has been noted, immunity to cold and immunity to ability score loss are different, and overcoming the one does not overcome the other.

From SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):


Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


The only SRD creature type normally immune to cold is angels.

[Doctor Awkward]

So, I thought I'd countered Shivering Touch. I really did.

We were fighting an undead cult that worshiped Vecna, by the player's own choices, so it wasn't even like I'd DM forced it. There were tons of undead around, and a dracolich. Then my player uses a Suddenly Maximized Shivering Touch.

I say, shivering touch doesn't affect undead. He points to a feat he recently took at his previous level up. Piercing Cold.


...Hahahaha!
I honestly give that player props. That was a pretty clever interpretation.

So in regards to the rules debate, the point in the player's favor is that ability damage is a type of damage and thus Piercing Cold applies.

The point in your favor is that Piercing Cold only bypasses cold immunities, and it specifically says that the subject of the spell is still entitled to any other defenses they might have.

In this case, undead aren't immune to ability damage by virtue of cold resistance. They are immune to ability damage because it's specifically listed as an undead trait. So Shivering Touch still doesn't work. That's how I'd rule, but I probably wouldn't bat an eye if I was in a game where the DM ruled the other way.

[atemu1234]

Doesn't work. Shivering Touch is ability damage, not cold damage.

[DarkSonic1337]

So while we're on the topic, a lot of people seem to agree that shivering touch is a little overpowered....at about what level do you think it becomes fair game and not a buzzkill encounter ender?

I'm a level 14 swiftblade in a campaign right now and looking for neat things to stick on my spell storing weapon, but I still want to..."play nice." We fight a variety of opponents from constructs with magic immunity to undead to outsiders to magical beasts (we rarely fight plain humanoids or dragons).

[Bronk]

How the hell do I counter that, without giving every singe enemy the cold subtype?

Well, it was a dracolich, so I'd imagine it would be thematically appropriate for it to have a Globe of Invulnerability up. A lesser one would do in this case. Maybe spell turning, or a pale lavender ellipsoid Ioun stone...

[Crake]

Doesn't work. Shivering Touch is ability damage, not cold damage.

Honestly, I doubt it was even intended to do ability damage in the first place. Ability damage that lasts 1 round/level? Who ever heard of such a thing. I've always treated it as a nonstacking penalty, since ability damage doesn't have a duration, if it was truely meant to be ability damage, it would be instantaneous.

[jiriku]

So while we're on the topic, a lot of people seem to agree that shivering touch is a little overpowered....at about what level do you think it becomes fair game and not a buzzkill encounter ender?

I'm a level 14 swiftblade in a campaign right now and looking for neat things to stick on my spell storing weapon, but I still want to..."play nice." We fight a variety of opponents from constructs with magic immunity to undead to outsiders to magical beasts (we rarely fight plain humanoids or dragons).

I find that shivering touch as a 4th level spell is about right. To me it seems about on par with spells like solid fog and evard's black tentacles in terms of how it forces me as the DM to rethink encounter-design. However, those are spells on the high end of 4th level, so I could understand why some people might prefer to put shivering touch at 5th level.

[heavyfuel]

Basically you need to slap your players. When you have to spend a good hour thinking of how to counter a particular ability, then you are dangerously close to DM Burn Out. [...]
It all comes down to playing nice. Pillock is not playing nice at all.

You don't need to spend hours thinking how to counter it. If they want to play in a high-ish OP game where maximized shivering touches are a thing, they must be ready to face the facts that he's definitely not the first Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric to think of such a combo. Maybe a Cleric even got DMM Maximize and can use this 3 or 4 times per encounter.

It's not about playing nice, it's about establishing the OPness of the setting. If he can do it, so can the DM. Don't complain when you character gets Coup de Graced if you ever, for any reason, decide to use Shivering Touch at my table.

[thecrimsondawn]

You don't need to spend hours thinking how to counter it. If they want to play in a high-ish OP game where maximized shivering touches are a thing, they must be ready to face the facts that he's definitely not the first Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric to think of such a combo. Maybe a Cleric even got DMM Maximize and can use this 3 or 4 times per encounter.

It's not about playing nice, it's about establishing the OPness of the setting. If he can do it, so can the DM. Don't complain when you character gets Coup de Graced if you ever, for any reason, decide to use Shivering Touch at my table.

+1
My rule of thumb is, you can make just about anything, any template, any spell. So long as its not trying to exploit major holes in the rules (iron heart surge comes to mind)
If a player wants to come in with 7 base classes and 3 prestige classes, he needs to expect that every book he claimed something out of will be in the game now, and any combo he comes up with will be met with an equally strong combo.

[atemu1234]

+1
My rule of thumb is, you can make just about anything, any template, any spell. So long as its not trying to exploit major holes in the rules (iron heart surge comes to mind)
If a player wants to come in with 7 base classes and 3 prestige classes, he needs to expect that every book he claimed something out of will be in the game now, and any combo he comes up with will be met with an equally strong combo.

I agree with this, except for one thing- I highly doubt seven base classes is ever 'optimized'.

[HammeredWharf]

I just ban Shivering Touch. I could counter it every time I want, but I don't see how that would enhance my group's D&D experience.

[Shining Wrath]

Whatever the PCs can do, the NPCs can do. And things that persist, the NPCs did them first.

There can only be one Pun-Pun (or zero, depending on your opinions regarding divine intervention to prevent that sort of shenanigans). After the first Pun-Pun, all future Pun-Puns are prevented from existing by the first one.

Same sort of thing with making walls of salt and selling them to have unlimited wealth. Some NPC did that thousands of years ago and now, when you start doing it, a level 30 wizard backed up by a couple of demigods shows up to make you an offer you can't refuse about profit-sharing.

And so on. Most of the paths to unlimited power assume that no one cares enough to interfere with your plans at their inception. In a multiverse full of scry & die wizards with all sorts of plans, that's a poor assumption.