How to Optimize the Unoptimizable Axe-Thrower?

[Lord Lemming]

So, I'm a new DM, DMing a Pathfinder game where about half my players have almost no grasp of the mechanics of the game. We're all friends, and I like rolling up characters, so I'm fine with building their characters for them based on what they want to play. But what this one player wants is to play Draven from League of Legends. If you're not familiar with the game, Draven is a ranged attacker who kills his enemies by throwing axes at them, and then catching the axes again when they bounce off (?) his target. The player in question doesn't really care how effective he is, so long as he gets to play Draven. Thing is, I'm about to give the world's races a collective level boost, so your average orc will have 19 HP as opposed to 6. So 'Draven's already dubious combat ability will become almost non-existent. I'd like to prevent that. So far, 'Draven's character sheet looks like this:

25-point-buy attributes: (Don't start on the high CHA, low WIS, and low INT. That's what the player wanted.)
STR: 16
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 9
WIS: 7
CHA: 14

Level 3 Fighter, feats are:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe)
Point-Blank Shot

So the idea is for him to be able to full-attack by throwing two axes, then being able to draw two more axes next round and repeat (he carries a fair number of them). If the enemy closes to melee, he switches over to a battleaxe and handaxe and defends himself close up. This is... not a terribly effective combination. The range increment on throwing axes is only 10 ft. If he's throwing at someone within 10 feet, then he gets to throw two axes at a +7 attack bonus for 1d6+4 damage each. Meaning that while he was fighting 6 HP orcs, he had a decent chance to knock one out of the fight in a round. When he was fighting 10 HP hobgoblins carrying tower shields, his effectiveness dropped almost to zero. Now that both the hobgoblins and the orcs are going to just about triple their HP totals, he'll barely be able to scratch a single enemy. I don't care how little he cares about optimization, that's going to get tiring after a while.

So how to I save the character while still keeping him as a throwing-axe ranged fighter? The only good suggestion I've heard so far is to hand him outrageously level-inappropriate magic items until his combat ability comes somewhere close to approaching the general vicinity of the party barbarian's ability to one-shot everything that gets within five feet.

[Snowbluff]

Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe)


http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5438374+_6d8b9eb51f1551cbc22154c47a82cdc5.jpg

[(Un)Inspired]

If the player doesn't care how effective the character is why are you trying to boost his effectiveness? Just give him more commoner levels and put every feat into weapon focus with different weapons.

[Lord Lemming]

Yes, I know it's a terrible feat. But when I have make four different character sheets, I don't really have a lot of time to go looking anywhere other than Core. And when the player wants to throw axes, then he desperately needs a way to boost his attack bonus.

[Necromancy]

Hey if he wants to suck then that's his business. House rule the bounding hammer feat to axes for him and let him go gimp it up while the other players call him racial slurs for not being able to defend his lane....

Hold on a sec, I think I may be in the wrong game

[Seharvepernfan]

Why are you boosting their HP's?

Have you considered allowing 3.5 ToB material? So he can play a bloodstorm blade?

In general, with throwing weapons, you really want to be a rogue, because without sneak attack damage (or something like it), you're basically wasting your time.

[Necromancy]

In general, with throwing weapons, you really want to be a rogue, because without sneak attack damage (or something like it), you're basically wasting your time.

I have seen it done decently on a ranger as well, though at level 3 we can't expect too much

[PsyBomb]

Couple of ways to go about this.

1) Prodigious TWF and Power Throw (both from DSP, playtest but likely to see print) will let you dump Dex entirely. More strength focus will let you get better damage and accuracy. Belt of Mighty Throwing will let you do it as well, but that's pricy for level 3.

2) Quick draw plus a Blinkback Belt lets you have infinite ammo, just need two axes.

3) Remind him that using TWF, Power Attack, or other such is OPTIONAL. If you have trouble hitting, turn one off for better accuracy.

4) Get Precise Shot pronto if you have any Melee in the party, getting rid of that -4 is better than Weapon Focus.

[Psyren]

- He doesn't have to draw different axes against melee foes, throwing axes can be used in melee without penalty (they are on the melee table.)

- Swap his Strength and Dex scores, then get him a Lesser Belt of Mighty Hurling as soon as possible. Now he has Str to attack and damage. (Consider brewing a weaker version, e.g. "Least Belt of Mighty Hurling," that lacks both the ranged increment boost and the enhancement bonus to strength, and cut the price of that version down so that he can get it by level 3-4 instead of level 7; his Dex should be fine to hit things until then.)

- Later on, have him wear a Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling. Now his axes will return to him, i.e. you don't have to enchant them with Returning, freeing up the enhancement budget for other things.

- If he wants the above items even earlier, have him pick up Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item. If he crafts the lesser belt, you may not need to brew anything at all.

[PsyBomb]

- He doesn't have to draw different axes against melee foes, throwing axes can be used in melee without penalty (they are on the melee table.)

- Swap his Strength and Dex scores, then get him a Lesser Belt of Mighty Hurling as soon as possible. Now he has Str to attack and damage. (Consider brewing a weaker version, e.g. "Least Belt of Mighty Hurling," that lacks both the ranged increment boost and the enhancement bonus to strength, and cut the price of that version down so that he can get it by level 3-4 instead of level 7; his Dex should be fine to hit things until then.)

- Later on, have him wear a Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling. Now his axes will return to him, i.e. you don't have to enchant them with Returning, freeing up the enhancement budget for other things.

- If he wants the above items even earlier, have him pick up Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item. If he crafts the lesser belt, you may not need to brew anything at all.

Missed the Lesser version when I went looking somehow. Good looking out.

[NeoSeraphi]

Why are you boosting their HP's?

Have you considered allowing 3.5 ToB material? So he can play a bloodstorm blade?

In general, with throwing weapons, you really want to be a rogue, because without sneak attack damage (or something like it), you're basically wasting your time.

A) Rogues are horribly inaccurate with their 3/4 BAB and no method to reliably increase their accuracy.

B) Sneak Attacking from a distance is notoriously difficult to do, since you can't just flank. How is this character supposed to get his Sneak Attack on? You probably shouldn't suggest "Stealth after every attack" because I play League of Legends, if this guy wants to stay true to Draven's character he'll be wild, loud, and arrogant, none of which lend themselves to cowardly ducking behind a wall after each axe toss.

[Snowbluff]

A) Rogues are horribly inaccurate with their 3/4 BAB and no method to reliably increase their accuracy.


Um...

Effective BAB with Power Attack and full BAB: 3/4
BAB of Rogue: 3/4

Role of barbarian: Hit things
Combat role of rogue: Attack when you have a bonus to hit

[Telonius]

I usually don't like giving this advice, but maybe just homebrew him a Weapon of Legacy-esque thing for his axes (being sure to give them a significant power increase over any actual Weapons of Legacy you might have read about). Charge him a single feat to let it work like he's describing, and let him fling away and attack as though it was a regular TWF routine. It's not like he's trying to break the game with it, and he'll have more fun.

[NeoSeraphi]

Um...

Effective BAB with Power Attack and full BAB: 3/4
BAB of Rogue: 3/4

Role of barbarian: Hit things
Combat role of rogue: Attack when you have a bonus to hit

Effective BAB with Power Attack is indeed 3/4. But barbarians have Rage, rangers have Favored Enemy, Paladins have Smite, and Fighter have Weapon Training. Rogues have none of that.

[Snowbluff]

Effective BAB with Power Attack is indeed 3/4. But barbarians have Rage, rangers have Favored Enemy, Paladins have Smite, and Fighter have Weapon Training. Rogues have none of that.

Rogue have a conditional bonus to damage when they have a conditional bonus to hit, just like those classes have conditional bonuses to hit.

[NeoSeraphi]

Rogue have a conditional bonus to damage when they have a conditional bonus to hit, just like those classes have conditional bonuses to hit.

Sure, but how do you get that conditional bonus to hit, when you're throwing axes?

[Twilightwyrm]

You could always consider building him as a Bard/Fighter. Silverbrow Human or Frostblood Half-Orc means that he'll qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and while in the latter case he will take a penalty to his Charisma, the Bard's Charisma based abilities aren't what you're after. Dragonfire Inspiration and TWF means that each of those axes he's throwing hits with the force of a greatsword, more when he picks up Song of the Heart, Inspiration Boost, and a Badge of Valor. His Perform can be Perform (Oratory), which he can use to taunt his opponents, praise his (and his party member's, if he's feeling generous) own technique and power, and otherwise go on in Draven's usual manner. Having the axes return is as simple as the Returning weapon property or a weapon augment crystal of return. He can then mix in either Master Thrower and/or Warchanter, depending on his inclination, at higher levels. Don't get me wrong, this build will be...difficult to pull off, given it is very feat intensive. But it could work quite well for his purposes, and give the rest of the party a nice extra boost.

[Psyren]

You could always consider building him as a Bard/Fighter. Silverbrow Human or Frostblood Half-Orc means that he'll qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and while in the latter case he will take a penalty to his Charisma, the Bard's Charisma based abilities aren't what you're after. Dragonfire Inspiration and TWF means that each of those axes he's throwing hits with the force of a greatsword, more when he picks up Song of the Heart, Inspiration Boost, and a Badge of Valor. His Perform can be Perform (Oratory), which he can use to taunt his opponents, praise his (and his party member's, if he's feeling generous) own technique and power, and otherwise go on in Draven's usual manner. Having the axes return is as simple as the Returning weapon property or a weapon augment crystal of return. He can then mix in either Master Thrower and/or Warchanter, depending on his inclination, at higher levels. Don't get me wrong, this build will be...difficult to pull off, given it is very feat intensive. But it could work quite well for his purposes, and give the rest of the party a nice extra boost.

Pssst... Pathfinder

[the_archduke]

Hurler Barbarian archetype trades 10' additional range on any thrown weapon for fast movement, should be combinable with several other archtypes. A one level dip would get you what you need too, if you don't want to go full Barbarian

[the_archduke]

Distance thrower feat allows you to ignore the first -2 of range penalties, effectively giving you a doubled first range increment

3.5 had Brutal Throw which allowed you to use Str to hit on thrown weapons, totally reasonable to allow in PF as a feat if you are making the call

[Lord Lemming]

Sorry I didn't respond for so long, had to go to work.

It looks as though you've given me plenty of material to work with. I think that we've decided on switching his levels over to Slayer and grabbing better feats. I particularly like the Belt of Mighty Hurling, though he doesn't have anywhere near the gold to afford it. Maybe I can give it to him and say that in order to get it, he had to get a loan from a particularly nasty creditor... could make for an interesting side quest.

Thanks for the help. :smallsmile: