I am makeing a bard, and haveing trouble figuring out where he got magic.

[Rfkannen]

Bassicaly I have a character concept of a bard based on the real bards and skalds. He was a historian who would go around to varius tribes and was paid to tell awesome stories about there ancestors. Eventually he got bored of these stories, and decided that he needed to wright one that was completly original, interesting and thrilling and completly diffrent from any others. And as he was not one to deal with fiction, decided the only way to make this story was to live it.

My problem? As bardy as he is, I have no idea where magic fits into that. Swords? Maybe. Magic? why. I mean thats what bards DID. But I can't figure out where magic goes into it.

What do you think? Was I just wrong in my concept? Or what bards actually did? Where does the magic come from?

oh also, what backround and race would you make that concept?


how would you change the backstory to make it a bettter adventurer? This is just a ruff idea I have no ties to. I just wanted to make a bard based off of real bards.

[Draken]

Bassicaly I have a character concept of a bard based on the real bards and skalds. He was a historian who would go around to varius tribes and was paid to tell awesome stories about there ancestors. Eventually he got bored of these stories, and decided that he needed to wright one that was completly original, interesting and thrilling and completly diffrent from any others. And as he was not one to deal with fiction, decided the only way to make this story was to live it.

My problem? As bardy as he is, I have no idea where magic fits into that. Swords? Maybe. Magic? why. I mean thats what bards DID. But I can't figure out where magic goes into it.

What do you think? Was I just wrong in my concept? Or what bards actually did? Where does the magic come from?

oh also, what backround and race would you make that concept?


how would you change the backstory to make it a bettter adventurer? This is just a ruff idea I have no ties to. I just wanted to make a bard based off of real bards.

Depending on what you want this character's fighting style to be, you probably just want a rogue or fighter with the Entertainer background instead of a bard.

Alternatively, if you are set on Bard, he could have picked up magic from the priests and mages of the places he visited.

[Rfkannen]

Depending on what you want this character's fighting style to be, you probably just want a rogue or fighter with the Entertainer background instead of a bard.

Alternatively, if you are set on Bard, he could have picked up magic from the priests and mages of the places he visited.

the entire goal was to be a bard based off of real bards and skalds.

Just picking it up from priests and mages? I suppose?

But I was trying to make a bards bard based off bards with a bardy feel like the real bards instead of the wandering minstreals of europe bards that most bards are inspired by bardybardbard.

so yeah, how would you make a character backstory based off those old bards and skalds that would be best as a bard?

[Mara]

This is 5e

5e bards have just as much influence from the previous 4 editions of D&D as they do actual bards.

Also no actual people ever had magic, so 5e wizards are nothing like actual wizards either.

[Jlooney]

As far as races go, both halflings and half elves have huge wonder lust and both could be a lot of fun.

As far as class I could see a normal fighter or rogue or possibly even a ranger due to the uncivilized races you could encounter. Monks could also fill the role due to how much they study and amcient proverbs and stories ment to teach others.

[Rfkannen]

This is 5e

5e bards have just as much influence from the previous 4 editions of D&D as they do actual bards.

Also no actual people ever had magic, so 5e wizards are nothing like actual wizards either.

Of course I know that, I am trying to make one still.

Also, when I have a cleric, pray to godlike being, get magic. makes sense

study magic, get magic. Makes sense

tells stories to cheifs for money, get magic? what?

I never realy got where bard magic came from.

And wizards may not have existed, but people realy thought stuff like merlin existed. And even if they didn't you get the basic concept.

The logic of the bard I don't realy get.

Wizards were a thing that people at least THOUGHT were real.

Bards were real, and I am trying to come up with a d&d that has magic for some reason related to his bardyness.

Because bard magic is diffrent from wizard or cleric magic. Frankly it would make sense being similar to clerics or druids. But working with what we have, I am trying to come as close as possible to a real bard with a d&d bard.

And trying to figure out where bard magic comes from. Never got that? Can all musicians and performers just do magic in d&d worlds?

[FadeAssassin]

Maybe it could be some sort of ancestral magic, like the ancestors are affecting the world as you tell their story or sing a song about them. They aren't bound to you persay, but the stories you're telling/songs you're singing.

Also I think Nordic Human would do nicely for this build.

[Auramis]

Part of the bardic inspiration is in the belief that words and/or music have power in them, like the Thu'um in Skyrim. For example, when I play a bard, I generally have bards orate during combat instead of singing... singing during combat always felt odd to me.

I understand you based it off historic skalds, so if you need help translating magic into that image and you don't like the notion of words themselves holding power, consider that skalds existed during a time of pagan worship among Icelandic and Nordic tribes. Perhaps, in his studies of history and the significance of these acts in the name of honor and the gods, he comes to attain a power himself from the gods for his interest in their interests and chosen warriors.

[BurgerBeast]

It seems that there's a subtext here that is going suspiciously unnoticed. In the worlds that comprise the D&D multiverse, magic is a real thing, but there's more to it than that: magic is a part of natural reality.

Most of us, in our modern scientifically-influenced view of the world tend to think of the dichotomy between the mundane and the magic, but for a person actually existing in a D&D world, this dichotomy would be absurd (granted spells like detect magic and anti magic shell contribute to the conflation of the two ideas).

How do you think a person in a D&D world would rationalize alcohol? A drink with magical properties and by extension so to should the type of material used to make the alcohol (wheat, rice, honey, grapes). How does a person in the D&D world rationalize a tremendous orator who can inspire crowds to battle, or to tears, or to joy? Also magic. At least that's how I view it. The ninja of ancient Japan, to my limited understanding, were widely believed to have magical powers, but today we think is silly because we explain the extraordinary in the context of our natural world. The same ninja in a D&D world would be more likely to be magical than not.

Dunno if this helps to shift your frame of mind.

[Rfkannen]

It seems that there's a subtext here that is going suspiciously unnoticed. In the worlds that comprise the D&D multiverse, magic is a real thing, but there's more to it than that: magic is a part of natural reality.

Most of us, in our modern scientifically-influenced view of the world tend to think of the dichotomy between the mundane and the magic, but for a person actually existing in a D&D world, this dichotomy would be absurd (granted spells like detect magic and anti magic shell contribute to the conflation of the two ideas).

How do you think a person in a D&D world would rationalize alcohol? A drink with magical properties and by extension so to should the type of material used to make the alcohol (wheat, rice, honey, grapes). How does a person in the D&D world rationalize a tremendous orator who can inspire crowds to battle, or to tears, or to joy? Also magic. At least that's how I view it. The ninja of ancient Japan, to my limited understanding, were widely believed to have magical powers, but today we think is silly because we explain the extraordinary in the context of our natural world. The same ninja in a D&D world would be more likely to be magical than not.

Dunno if this helps to shift your frame of mind.

that makes a lot of sense actualy. So bard magic is realy just that they are so awesome at stories that they can summon meteors from the sky. Kind of makes sense actualy when you explain it like that.

So the character would just be so awesome at story telling they can bend the laws of physics.
Makes sense mostly, but it seems like with the other types of magic, you gotta be trying. A wizard is raely good at magic, a cleric is realy good at praying for magic. Yet the bards magic comes out of a skill. Makes sense I suppose but It doesnt realy sounds right to me. Like in the logic of D&d worlds, magic is a particular thing that comes from particular places. One of these places is generally not just being awesome. as awesome as that may be.


Maybe it could be some sort of ancestral magic, like the ancestors are affecting the world as you tell their story or sing a song about them. They aren't bound to you persay, but the stories you're telling/songs you're singing.

Also I think Nordic Human would do nicely for this build.

that sounds relay cool. Seems like a good way to play it what with dealing with ancestors.

also, but humans are bOOOOOOORING.


Part of the bardic inspiration is in the belief that words and/or music have power in them, like the Thu'um in Skyrim. For example, when I play a bard, I generally have bards orate during combat instead of singing... singing during combat always felt odd to me.

I understand you based it off historic skalds, so if you need help translating magic into that image and you don't like the notion of words themselves holding power, consider that skalds existed during a time of pagan worship among Icelandic and Nordic tribes. Perhaps, in his studies of history and the significance of these acts in the name of honor and the gods, he comes to attain a power himself from the gods for his interest in their interests and chosen warriors.

it isnt that I don't like the notion, just that It doesnt seem to exist in most d&d games. As this is a character you can assume that it is not in a world I made.

[jaydubs]

The arcane arts involve the influence of magic through sound and gesture, made under a certain rhythm. Because of that, there's a lot of crossover between magic and poetry - both center around the manipulation of sound and rhythm, to produce a desired effect. To that end, bards have found that the study of magic produces better poets. Every truly gifted bard or skald is also a master of the arcane arts. In fact, there is a mundane limit to how good a story or poem can be - and it's your duty to surpass it.

The bard isn't just a master of stories and poetry. He isn't just a master of magic. He's a master of both, and the combination creates a more powerful experience.

It's like how a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is better than a peanut butter sandwich, or just a jelly sandwich. Trying to be a truly excellent bard without magic, would be like trying to be an amazing physicist without understanding mathematics. The two are so intertwined, that no one would even think of learning to be a bard and not learning magic.

The other bard stuff (skills mostly, but also weapons if you go valor) is a product of the lifestyle. Bards often travel alone, and that requires a level of self-sufficiency that other adventurers can't duplicate.

[Rad Mage]

The way I've always run my bards (all two of them) was that he gained his magical knowledge via osmosis. He'd see the wizard doing wizardy things and think to himself "I can do that". He would make up for his lack of formal training by falling back on his vast knowledge of history and lore to fill in the blanks.

Bards and Skalds were keepers of oral history and culture, so it makes sense that in a world were magic is a thing they would know a few rituals and spells.

[EvanescentHero]

There's something special, even in the real world, about a good performance. It grabs our attention. It entrances us. While we're listening to a story, we believe it. We get invested in it. We enter the world of the story, peering through a portal crafted of words. When we listen to a musical performance, the music--even without any words--can take us on a journey. A good speech can actually inspire us. We lose ourselves within the performance, be it a song, a story, a fantastic oration, a dance, or anything else. We find ourselves at the mercy of the performer--the bard.

That's just in the real world. Who's to say a skilled performer in a world rife with magic wouldn't be able to alter reality itself with their skill?

[Marcelinari]

Words have power. Stories have power. Ultimately, what bards do is to reshape and retell the narrative that is the world, the story of their lives. Magic exists - between wizards and clerics and druids, it's a verifiable fact of life. So, when a bard sings that a fireball burst into existence, immolating all the pesky kobolds... that's what happens. Bardic magic is what happens when you convince reality that it's modelling itself wrong.

Basically, bards are all innate reality-benders. They just express it through stories. The reasons that bards can't simply rewrite all the troubles of their lives away are twofold. 1) They're not convinced that the reality bending works if they're not doing what they perceive as bardic spells, and 2) The Theory of Narrative Causality (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality).

My condolences to all those who have family lost in the labyrinth that is tvtropes.

[Rad Mage]

Stories have power.

Power=energy

Energy=mass

Mass distorts space.

Therefore a good story can change the world.

[EvanescentHero]

Words have power. Stories have power. Ultimately, what bards do is to reshape and retell the narrative that is the world, the story of their lives. Magic exists - between wizards and clerics and druids, it's a verifiable fact of life. So, when a bard sings that a fireball burst into existence, immolating all the pesky kobolds... that's what happens. Bardic magic is what happens when you convince reality that it's modelling itself wrong.

...****. I went so long without wanting to play a bard, and now you've ruined it.

[BurgerBeast]

Well, I didn't realize that I'd be dealing with a straw man from a sarcastic troll, but nonetheless, I think a reply is in order.

Imagine the absurdity of someone saying "I'm having trouble with my priest concept, because I want to model my character after a real world Christian priest in Britain in the 1300s. The trouble is, real priests didn't have spells, so I really don't understand where my priest gets his spells from. Because, you know, I want my priest to worship the god Yahweh who never granted spells to his followers."

Maybe that helps you see the framework from which my answer was forced to come.


that makes a lot of sense actualy. So bard magic is realy just that they are so awesome at stories that they can summon meteors from the sky. Kind of makes sense actualy when you explain it like that.

"You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music." (PHB 52). So yeah, that's how it's made sense of in a fantasy roleplaying game.


So the character would just be so awesome at story telling they can bend the laws of physics.

See above. You pretty much paraphrased what the PHB says. So yes.


Makes sense mostly, but it seems like with the other types of magic, you gotta be trying. A wizard is raely good at magic, a cleric is realy good at praying for magic. Yet the bards magic comes out of a skill.

This is the straw man bit. I never said Bards don't try, nor did I say their magic comes out of a skill. Also, you conveniently left sorcerers off of your list, which just happens to be an entire class designed around casting magic because they are just "so awesome… that they can bend the laws of physics."


Makes sense I suppose but It doesnt realy sounds right to me. Like in the logic of D&d worlds, magic is a particular thing that comes from particular places.

I'm not sure you've thought this through. Where does the gods' magic come from? Where does the sorcerers magic come from? The wizards? The entities with which warlocks make pacts - where does their magic come from?


One of these places is generally not just being awesome. as awesome as that may be.

"Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways." (PHB 99, on sorcerers.) Somehow that constitutes an explanation to you, but "it comes naturally from awesomeness" is totally different? Also see above.

[Mara]

I never realy got where bard magic came from.


Do you believe in magic? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTuitZJa94)

[Rfkannen]

Well, I didn't realize that I'd be dealing with a straw man from a sarcastic troll, but nonetheless, I think a reply is in order.

Imagine the absurdity of someone saying "I'm having trouble with my priest concept, because I want to model my character after a real world Christian priest in Britain in the 1300s. The trouble is, real priests didn't have spells, so I really don't understand where my priest gets his spells from. Because, you know, I want my priest to worship the god Yahweh who never granted spells to his followers."

Maybe that helps you see the framework from which my answer was forced to come.



"You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music." (PHB 52). So yeah, that's how it's made sense of in a fantasy roleplaying game.



See above. You pretty much paraphrased what the PHB says. So yes.



This is the straw man bit. I never said Bards don't try, nor did I say their magic comes out of a skill. Also, you conveniently left sorcerers off of your list, which just happens to be an entire class designed around casting magic because they are just "so awesome… that they can bend the laws of physics."



I'm not sure you've thought this through. Where does the gods' magic come from? Where does the sorcerers magic come from? The wizards? The entities with which warlocks make pacts - where does their magic come from?



"Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways." (PHB 99, on sorcerers.) Somehow that constitutes an explanation to you, but "it comes naturally from awesomeness" is totally different? Also see above.

I didn't mean to be a troll or to be sarcastic. Everything I said I meant with earnest. as I said, I was just feeling that way, You do raise a very good point with the priests. But in my mind priests were thought to have magic, what with driving out snakes and splitting oceans. While in my brain bards were not thought to have that. I don't mean they don't just in my odd little brain I don't see it that way. I can't think of any examples in mythology or legend of bards having magical powers. Music having magic, yes. Pied piper and all that. I was thinking in this thread just about bards, and in my head (which can be a bit insane) a bard is primary a storyteller and not a musician. And I was not seeing in d&d terms how storytelling made music.

with the second strawman bit, that was my conclusion based off of what you said, not what you said. I was skipping sevral steps in my logic that went in my head. the basic idea in my head was that being good at music didnt correlate to magic because not everyone with a really good perform skill is good at magic. While someone good at manipulating magic in there blood would be good at magic because that makes sense to me. Yes I know that may make no sense. The musical skill granting magic just didn't make sense to ME. To me sorcerers get magic from their magical blood stuff. that makes sense to me. Magical blood = magical blood. While being realy good at music just in my head doesn't equal magic. Stuff like bardic inspiration? sure. But fireballs? It just doesnt work for me.

I was not trying to say your points were bad, just that on a level to me they didn't make sense emotionaly. Plently of sense logically but in that deep primal bit that just wasn't how it worked to me.

Some of the arguments in this thread are changing my viewpoint, these include yours. I am just wanting to hear more ideas. Not meaning to say yours were bad, just that it doesn't make sense to me.


tldr. You were right it just doesnt make sense to me with what I wanted.


edit; after reading this post again it made no sense. the summary is that while your points make sense, to me it seems that the other magical classes are good at things that would directly lead to magic. Praying to a clearly magical god, manipulating the forces of nature, reaserching magical phenominom. While to me it doesnt make sense that being good at performance would make you good at magic in d&d as not everyone with a good performance score can do magic. I would like to hear arguments against this
also, I did not mean to be a troll or sarcastic, I just didn't think my points out thoroughly.

[SharkForce]

it is worth noting that bards are the keepers of lore, traditionally. they're the ones that know history, but they'd also be the ones telling the stories of the gods and legendary heroes. they're the ones that know those stories by heart, and they're the ones who will have the greatest insight into them. who's to say that they don't accumulate knowledge of arcane lore at the same time?

[SaintRidley]

I'd recommend looking to old Germanic charms. The magic was in the language. The Old English metrical charms would be a good example. It's just poetry, but the idea is that the words themselves contain the magic and bring that magic into the world.

For instance, one of the charms we have record of from Old English was the charm for the Water-Elf Disease:


Ic benne awrat betest beadowræda,
swa benne ne burnon, ne burston,
ne fundian, ne feologan,
ne hoppettan, ne wund waxian,
ne dolh diopian; ac him self healde halewæge,
ne ace þe þon ma, þe eorþan on eare ace.


Rough translation:

I wrote of a wound of the best of warbands
so the wound burned not, nor burst,
nor hasten, nor foul,
nor throb, nor grow the wound,
nor deepen pain; but held himself in health's way,
nor ache thee any more, that earth may ache in the ear.*

*The last half line is really rough.

There's a further instruction, immediately after the poem, saying to "sing this in many goings: the earth which takes in all her might and vigor. This charm a man may sing on a wound."

Magic and language are very linked. For your bard character, you don't need to find a justification for how the performance and the magic link. The performance is the magic.

[Sindeloke]

Words have power. Stories have power. Even in the real world, a story can teach vital lessons or change the way people think. Words can convince people to do things they'd never considered before. Lies and slander and uncovered secrets can topple kingdoms. Music can bring a sense of community and belonging to alienated teenagers, relieve the symptoms of a surprising number of diseases, and completely alter a listener's mood and attitude. That's the closest thing to magic you get in the real world. Just extrapolate; what would that mean in a world where magic is real?

Your bard learns stories and how to talk to people and make music, and all of those things are, in and of themselves, magical in the world of D&D.

[Rfkannen]

it is worth noting that bards are the keepers of lore, traditionally. they're the ones that know history, but they'd also be the ones telling the stories of the gods and legendary heroes. they're the ones that know those stories by heart, and they're the ones who will have the greatest insight into them. who's to say that they don't accumulate knowledge of arcane lore at the same time?

that makes sense. the first part is exactly what I want, but I am still conflicted about the magic. I mean on one hand you have the so good at story telling you can shoot fireballs, and on the other hand you have the picking up magic from your tails.

Not sure which to pick.


I'd recommend looking to old Germanic charms. The magic was in the language. The Old English metrical charms would be a good example. It's just poetry, but the idea is that the words themselves contain the magic and bring that magic into the world.

For instance, one of the charms we have record of from Old English was the charm for the Water-Elf Disease:



Rough translation:

I wrote of a wound of the best of warbands
so the wound burned not, nor burst,
nor hasten, nor foul,
nor throb, nor grow the wound,
nor deepen pain; but held himself in health's way,
nor ache thee any more, that earth may ache in the ear.*

*The last half line is really rough.

There's a further instruction, immediately after the poem, saying to "sing this in many goings: the earth which takes in all her might and vigor. This charm a man may sing on a wound."

Magic and language are very linked. For your bard character, you don't need to find a justification for how the performance and the magic link. The performance is the magic.

that... is realy cool. and makes sense. I don't know why but although others bassicaly said the same thing this is the one that made sense to me. I think the quote did it. charms and stuff.

[BurgerBeast]

Well I'm sorry I misinterpreted your intent.

Not sure this will help but the word "arcane" doesn't actually mean magical. It just means "understood by few." So what we today understand to be our highest level scientists would in ancient times or in fantasy settings have been considered magicians or masters of the arcane. What we call physics is what fantasy characters call magic (edit: in many cases, for example prisms and the flight of birds and thermometers).

A modern chemist throwing a lump of sodium on a river to have it explode and bounce around is considered science here, but in D&D it's a magical spell with material and somatic components. Hypnotists or very persuasive people may well have been seen as enchanter wizards and enchanter sorcerers, respectively.

I'm with you on the inability to stretch my imagination to the point that a song can cause a meteor shower (and my knowledge of 5e isn't very thorough but I had hoped the designers had moved away from this). I would personally be tempted to come up with explanations for how each of my spells works for my particular character, and I might, if I were in your shoes, simply ignore spells that didn't fit my concept.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

You once managed to impress an impossibly beautiful woman with your tales and songs while on the road. Turns out she was the local Goddess of Art/Song/Tales/Bardstuff, and you are now her Favorite, which comes with a few perks, Magic being one of them!

Unfortunately that means you're her pawn now on the Divine Gameboard. :smallbiggrin:

[Rfkannen]

Well I'm sorry I misinterpreted your intent.

Not sure this will help but the word "arcane" doesn't actually mean magical. It just means "understood by few." So what we today understand to be our highest level scientists would in ancient times or in fantasy settings have been considered magicians or masters of the arcane. What we call physics is what fantasy characters call magic.

A modern chemist throwing a lump of sodium on a river to have it explode and bounce around is considered science here, but in D&D it's a magical spell with material and somatic components. Hypnotism or very persuasive people may well have been seen as enchanter wizards and enchanter sorcerers, respectively.

I'm with you on the inability to stretch my imagination to the point that a song can cause a meteor shower (and my knowledge of 5e isn't very thorough but I had hoped the designers had moved away from this). I would personally be tempted to come up with explanations for how each of my spells works for my particular character, and I might, if I were in your shoes, simply ignore spells that didn't fit my concept.

Yeah I realy was not clear.

Your definition of arcane makes sense. And it does work with magical thigns in d&d

with the last bit about that moveing away from that, no exactly the opposite. Before bards were half casters, and got some odd magical spells. Now they are full casters with 9th level spells, including the ability to steal them from other classes. So I could steal a 5th level paladin spell. And I can do that because of magic.

It would probably be best to just not use spells that don't make sense as your said.

[SharkForce]

that makes sense. the first part is exactly what I want, but I am still conflicted about the magic. I mean on one hand you have the so good at story telling you can shoot fireballs, and on the other hand you have the picking up magic from your tails.

bards collect all sorts of lore. not necessarily just stories.

[kaoskonfety]

Oh for the good old days - when bards used the wizard spell list and cribbed spells off of drunks at taverns in exchange for a song or the next round of drinks...

[Bharaeth]

I didn't mean to be a troll or to be sarcastic. Everything I said I meant with earnest. as I said, I was just feeling that way, You do raise a very good point with the priests. But in my mind priests were thought to have magic, what with driving out snakes and splitting oceans. While in my brain bards were not thought to have that. I don't mean they don't just in my odd little brain I don't see it that way. I can't think of any examples in mythology or legend of bards having magical powers. Music having magic, yes. Pied piper and all that. I was thinking in this thread just about bards, and in my head (which can be a bit insane) a bard is primary a storyteller and not a musician. And I was not seeing in d&d terms how storytelling made music.

Just to throw in a bit here. As I understand it, the concept of druids and bards comes initially from the Celts, with the druids just being the intellectual caste in society, and various career paths within that caste being a priest/scientist, an apothecary/surgeon, a historian and a hero's personal charioteer-***-cheerleader, and others. At least some of these count as bards, which I think came from the celtic language later identified as Welsh. And those bards/druids with their obscure knowledge would pass on that knowledge in an oral, probably rhythmic pattern, as music is a big way for humans to hold onto and convey memory and knowledge. And these lessons would be conveyed through charms and ritual postures, as knowing how to bring people back from the dead, or predict when to plant and when celestial objects will appear in the sky, and how to make potions/poisons and metals, and what have you. That would most likely be viewed as magic, and would be gifts from the gods. So those bards would have seemed to have magical powers.

The whole thing of druids being nature types I think was the Romans confusing the Celts' philosophers and intellectuals with those of the Germanics.

I personally have a problem with how DnD treats both those classes and would want to homebrew the hell out of them. How Earthdawn did their Troubadours was fantastic.

[Rfkannen]

bards collect all sorts of lore. not necessarily just stories.
ah yes, this is true. I did not think of that.


Just to throw in a bit here. As I understand it, the concept of druids and bards comes initially from the Celts, with the druids just being the intellectual caste in society, and various career paths within that caste being a priest/scientist, an apothecary/surgeon, a historian and a hero's personal charioteer-***-cheerleader, and others. At least some of these count as bards, which I think came from the celtic language later identified as Welsh. And those bards/druids with their obscure knowledge would pass on that knowledge in an oral, probably rhythmic pattern, as music is a big way for humans to hold onto and convey memory and knowledge. And these lessons would be conveyed through charms and ritual postures, as knowing how to bring people back from the dead, or predict when to plant and when celestial objects will appear in the sky, and how to make potions/poisons and metals, and what have you. That would most likely be viewed as magic, and would be gifts from the gods. So those bards would have seemed to have magical powers.

The whole thing of druids being nature types I think was the Romans confusing the Celts' philosophers and intellectuals with those of the Germanics.

I personally have a problem with how DnD treats both those classes and would want to homebrew the hell out of them. How Earthdawn did their Troubadours was fantastic.

Very interesting points, that on my reaserch appear to be correct.
How would you redo the classes? Bolth druid and bard?
I have often thought that while not bad, bolth classes seemed odd to me, so I would be interested to hear what you would change.

how did earthdawn handle troubadours?

[Battlebooze]

I'm going to take a stab at this. I think it would be easier to Illustrate the way the main caster classes work in relationship to Magic.

First of all, Magic in D&D is a flexible and nearly omnipresent source of power that can change/create/destroy reality in the game world.

Spell casters, in their many different ways, know how to manipulate Magic to change reality.

Wizards use mental mathematical or linguistic formulas (INT) to lead to relatively predictable results.
A wizard spell basically would be something like this. Fireball: Insert (X level) fire elemental energy, distance (Y meters) , direction (Z pointed finger vector), release.

Clerics are gifted by "Gods" with spells that are like prepackaged magical manipulations. They do not evoke their spells as math, they use their powerful faith (WIS) in their "God" to do the hard work.
A Cleric spell would be something like a prayer. By the power Pelor has granted me, heal this person of their wounds.

Bards use music, oratory, power-words, to persuade (CHA) Magic to act as they desire. The details (who, what, where, when) are implied by the bard's music and his attention, less by any actual details.
A bard spell would be something like this. "Fire! I'll take you burn! Fire! I'll take you learn!*"

When a bard learns a spell from another spell list, in my mind they are simply figuring out, "Hey, if magic can do that for that Cleric/Wizard/Druid/Whatever, I should see if I can persuade magic to do that for me too!"


*Thank you Arthur Brown!

[Bharaeth]

How would you redo the classes? Bolth druid and bard?
I have often thought that while not bad, bolth classes seemed odd to me, so I would be interested to hear what you would change.

how did earthdawn handle troubadours?

Hmm. Well, there seems to be a huge overlap between Nature clerics and druids. Although the druids have got the whole shape-shifting thing which long-term players know and love, I would just want to scrap the whole class, and merge the relevant (non-shape-shifting) things to Nature cleric.

Bards? To be honest, the only way I would be homebrewing them was if I was DMing my own setting, where the bards are basically the clerics and apparent spokespeople for the gods, trained up from a young age by a specific religious/political order to each have a pre-managed public persona with attached celebrity status, to educate the ignorant masses, distract them and keep them in line. They wouldn't have magic per se, other than trickery-type stuff, but more likely the ability to competently play to people's expectations, persuade and deceive, as well as access to the best resources of physical and intellectual training that the state's money could buy. And then there would be rebel bards that had taken that training and decided to go independent, to do whatever they decided was 'right'.

But in the context of vanilla DnD? I'm somewhat stumped. It has long seemed to me that bards were just a load of miscellaneous class features thrown together half-heartedly. Yeah, okay, have a bit of armour, but not very good, a bit of weapons training, not very good, a bit of spells, not very good, and make the rest up with some skills. I felt like the game designers didn't care half as much about the bards as they did the fighters, rogues, wizards, paladins and clerics. So maybe 5e has made them a powerful class now, but I still feel like they don't have their own niche, they just pinch from others. Maybe you're just meant to RP your way past it? I always thought OoTS highlighted it well in the earlier strips, with Elan nonsensically strumming his lute whilst the others fought for their lives.

In Earthdawn, where every PC-type hero (and more or less everyone in the world) used magic to some degree in their lives, the PCs were split into various disciplines (their word for 'class', each being a mystic training order), so you had your Warriors, your Archers, your Sky Raiders, your Thieves, your Cavalrymen, your Swordsmasters, your Elementalists, your Illusionists, your Wizards, your Nethermancers, your Beastmasters and your Troubadours. Don't think I'm missing any out. It was more or less a post-apocalyptic setting, rediscovering what survived in the world after the magic level (and attendant invasion of sanity-blasting badass demons) receded, and the hundreds of years of hiding ended. So there was few settlements left, many isolated, and only the bones of new nations forming up. Troubadours were not only dashing hero types, but also the scholars, the messengers, the entertainers, the teachers of that world. I guess, fluff-wise, not so unique, but in typical DnD worlds, there probably is a well-established stable civilisation all around where this type of character might be redundant, but not so in Earthdawn; so Troubadours were kind of the glue that stuck the various isolated communities together. And each class/discipline had unique talents (magic-powered skills, essentially), including Troubadours. The role of that class was much more instrumental to the setting, rather than the afterthought that they seem to me in DnD.

I've not played Earthdawn for years, and I imagine there isn't that much material available to support it, and after FASA failed, I'm not sure if any games companies did that much with it. Its mechanics were clunky as hell, and we found it a very harsh game for characters to survive in, but I loved the lore of the setting, and the creature design and the magic item systems (all magic items had a rule set similiar to 4e's 'concordance' for artifacts - you didn't just get a generic +1 sword, instead you had to explore the item's history to unlock its powers, and each item was a campaign thread by default) for me are head and shoulders above DnD.

[Submortimer]

See, my take on bards having magic was always that they were the "Jack of all trades" class. They traveled the world, singing the songs of their people, and as a result they picked up little bits of info and a lots of skills and talents along the way. This was reinforced in 3.5 and pathfinder by the fact that they were partial casters: More than the paladin and ranger, less than the Wizard or cleric. This idea is FURTHER reinforced by their spell list, which is a smattering of both Arcane AND divine spells.

Basically, they've been everywhere, man, and they've got the souvineers to show for it.

[AvatarVecna]

I can't speak for anyone else, but one way I like interpreting bards in general (and playing them) is that they are storytellers who are so familiar with stories that they realize they're in one. Furthermore, their mastery of tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) makes them Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) sometimes to a Dangerous (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) degree. Thus, I usually play it where their "bard spells" are just them using their knowledge of tropes to manipulate the story.


--gets pushed off a cliff--

"Nothing to worry about; everyone knows the hero can't die offstage like that!"

--Casts Feather Fall--
--Caught killing the king--

--Casts Glibness--

--"Now this foul, tyrannical dictator will never crush the people beneath his boot ever again!...That usually works, right?"
--Ally is slain in combat, found afterward--

"No. No, no, no. Your story isn't yet over, my friend. There's too many stories left to tell for you to die now."

--Casts True Resurrection (gained via Magical Secrets)--
The hero of any story can defy danger, but only a special hero can defy stories themselves.

[Battlebooze]

I can't speak for anyone else, but one way I like interpreting bards in general (and playing them) is that they are storytellers who are so familiar with stories that they realize they're in one. Furthermore, their mastery of tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) makes them Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy)sometimes to a Dangerous (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) degree. Thus, I usually play it where their "bard spells" are just them using their knowledge of tropes to manipulate the story.

--?--

Hah! That's a little meta for some games, but I love it!

[tzar1990]

The way I see it, Bards learn magic because you can't study the deeds of dozens of legendary wizards, sorcerers and wise men without picking up some of their tricks. The bard develops an odd collection of abilities by putting together the distorted fragments of magic hidden in tales. Spend a while learning church music, and you may assemble a Cure Wounds spell from fragments of the prayers therein. Collect rumors about druidic rituals, and you piece together the trick to Animal Friendship. The chorus of "The Wizard and the Red Demon," combined with the hand-motions that accompany an old elvish children's rhyme gets you Dispel Magic

Remember - in D&D, the legends and fairy tales are at least based on true stories - and so the magic described in them is at least, to some degree, accurate. A bard might not be as good a spellcaster as someone trained fully in magic, but he has learned it, just from a different angle than other spellcasters might approach it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

{scrubbed}

[Ashrym]

Real bards were believed to have magic and could curse a person, give them foul luck, predict the future (which is part of the eulogy and a bard function), or change shape (a magical ability attributed to bards and not druids in folklore). Bards also filled several roles in society and were considered super scholars of the time after spending years in colleges in study.

The point of learning stories was not in order to entertain; it was in order to teach and advise. Bards taught through parable, maintained history, and advised on appropriate custom based on the oral history they learned, maintained, and passed down. The role in society changed over time as written histories replaced oral histories so there are various representations possible.

Historically, bards were magicians, healers, prophets, teachers, judges, eulogizers (originally the eulogy included a prediction of the life of the successor and was included in bard duties), geneologists (a very large part of the job as bards could validate lineage and title), historians, advisors, heralds, linguists, and could be called on to fight if necessary. They were also the newspaper, television, radio, and internet of the time as the main source of information from one village to the next in their travels.

Merlin was mentioned earlier. The legends of Merlin were based on Myrrdin, and he was a bard. So was Taliesin and so was Amergin. These are characters who performed great feats of magic as bards. Even Gandalf and Tom Bombadil have roots in Finnish mythology and a basis on bards (Väinämöinen the eternal bard in this case).

People believed bards could predict the future or cause boils to appear on one's face if a person angered them. That's why we have magical bards based on folklore.


It's not hard to imagine a witch doctor dancing around shaking rattles and chanting as part of a magical ritual so why is it less imaginable that a bard doing something similar would be different?


The magic (historical folklore) came from "awen" which is true inspiration. Inspiration didn't quite have the same meaning as it does these days and once upon a long time ago meant "in spirit" as in "possessed in spirit". The general idea is true inspiration allows for seeing the truth in reality in an animistic sense and the magic is drawing out or reshaping that truth.

I enjoy the story of Taliesin as he went to Maelgwn's keep to free Elphin and in the process cursed Maelgwn's bards so they could not sing, called up a windstorm that shook the keep, sang the chains off Elphin, and tricked Maelgwn during a race by causing Maelgwn's horses to dance (or stumble depending on version).


Converting bards to the D&D setting meant applying D&D magic while differentiating them from other spellcasters. That means D&D spells, mechanics, and campaign lore. They are arcane casters (sidenote: spells are not arcane or divine in 5e. Arcane spellcasters such as bards, sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, arcane tricksters, and eldritch knights access the magic weave directly and divine spellcasters such as clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers access the magic weave via an intermediary force) that can access magic whether it's been picked up from others on their travels or the echos of creation or the power of true inspiration that they shape with their magic.

If that's not a good enough explanation then the bottom line is that it is what it is. D&D bards do use magic as per some old folklore so the alternative is a barbarian or rogue with an appropriate background to match concept.


Hopefully that helps.

[Rfkannen]

{scrubbed}

well your first comment puts a downer on my day. However I must say that you aren't wrong, and for that I am sorry.

I am perfectly aware of the traveling bard archetype, and through the posts on this thread I have become convinced that is the best one for the bard. You are completely right with your hole analogy as I was trying to fit the bard into the wrong hole. I simply did not think that the bard was only square at the beginning of this thread. There have been posts here that have fit an image remarkably similar to what I wanted and that are more realistic that I simply missed the goodness of on first read that are now helping me create the character. But My rigidness was hurting the thread. I have since looked at the all the posts on this thread and have been using all the ones about real bards and picking up knowledge to create my character. I am sorry if my rigid attribute was annoying anyone and I know regret not being as open minded before.

I am not trying to be condescending. I am sorry if I was, but all I meant was that I was trying to get more answers. I did not mean to say that anyone's answer was bad or wrong, they were all very insightful. I simply had a single idea in my head and was looking for those kind of answers, I now realize that this idea did not work the best, but at the begging of this thread I was going for that idea and my replies were simply trying to push in that direction. As for the repetitiveness, yes on looking back I see that my idea was not the best, I with my replies assumed that my idea was sound but the way I had said it had not come across, so I restated it. In hindsight it was the idea, I simply did not see that at the time.

If I was rude or condescending, I am deeply sorry. I think that everyone's post on this thread have been helpful and full of good ideas and did not mean to be. In hindsight I can see the rudeness of some of my comments, and in future interactions I will try to avoid that.

On the grammatical errors and misspelled words.... I am working on that. Very sorry. I realize it is a problem and am trying to improve, I am sorry if it hurt your enjoyment of the forums.

[Shining Wrath]

Go back to the idea of the Weave if you like. Magic is out there, wild and untamed, and mortals cannot touch it without using the Weave in some sense.

Clerics manipulate the Weave through the mediation of a deity.
Wizards learn to manipulate the Weave through careful study.
Warlocks manipulate the Weave through tricks learned from a patron.
Sorcerers manipulate the Weave because the power to do so is inborn and they are, in fact, All That.

Bards? Bards have the inborn power (like a Sorcerer) to manipulate the Weave, and a little bit of a Wizard's power to learn tricks from study. And the mechanism by which they touch the Weave is their music (or poetry).

Think, then, of Bardic music as being something like a Wizard's focus. It puts the Bard's mind into a state where the threads of the Weave are there, right in front of you, and you can reach out and pluck them.

[Rfkannen]

I can't speak for anyone else, but one way I like interpreting bards in general (and playing them) is that they are storytellers who are so familiar with stories that they realize they're in one. Furthermore, their mastery of tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) makes them Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) sometimes to a Dangerous (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) degree. Thus, I usually play it where their "bard spells" are just them using their knowledge of tropes to manipulate the story.
Lol, I was just thinking about the play our town, I could easly see a bard based off the stage manager. Sounds like a fun one to play


I'm going to take a stab at this. I think it would be easier to Illustrate the way the main caster classes work in relationship to Magic.

First of all, Magic in D&D is a flexible and nearly omnipresent source of power that can change/create/destroy reality in the game world.

Spell casters, in their many different ways, know how to manipulate Magic to change reality.

Wizards use mental mathematical or linguistic formulas (INT) to lead to relatively predictable results.
A wizard spell basically would be something like this. Fireball: Insert (X level) fire elemental energy, distance (Y meters) , direction (Z pointed finger vector), release.

Clerics are gifted by "Gods" with spells that are like prepackaged magical manipulations. They do not evoke their spells as math, they use their powerful faith (WIS) in their "God" to do the hard work.
A Cleric spell would be something like a prayer. By the power Pelor has granted me, heal this person of their wounds.

Bards use music, oratory, power-words, to persuade (CHA) Magic to act as they desire. The details (who, what, where, when) are implied by the bard's music and his attention, less by any actual details.
A bard spell would be something like this. "Fire! I'll take you burn! Fire! I'll take you learn!*"

When a bard learns a spell from another spell list, in my mind they are simply figuring out, "Hey, if magic can do that for that Cleric/Wizard/Druid/Whatever, I should see if I can persuade magic to do that for me too!"


*Thank you Arthur Brown!
I see, this implies some cool things about magic to, like that it is at least semi sentient if It can be persuaded. Seems like this would be a fun way to play it. Ever read the magic theif? Kind of reminds me of that.



Hmm. Well, there seems to be a huge overlap between Nature clerics and druids. Although the druids have got the whole shape-shifting thing which long-term players know and love, I would just want to scrap the whole class, and merge the relevant (non-shape-shifting) things to Nature cleric.

Bards? To be honest, the only way I would be homebrewing them was if I was DMing my own setting, where the bards are basically the clerics and apparent spokespeople for the gods, trained up from a young age by a specific religious/political order to each have a pre-managed public persona with attached celebrity status, to educate the ignorant masses, distract them and keep them in line. They wouldn't have magic per se, other than trickery-type stuff, but more likely the ability to competently play to people's expectations, persuade and deceive, as well as access to the best resources of physical and intellectual training that the state's money could buy. And then there would be rebel bards that had taken that training and decided to go independent, to do whatever they decided was 'right'.

But in the context of vanilla DnD? I'm somewhat stumped. It has long seemed to me that bards were just a load of miscellaneous class features thrown together half-heartedly. Yeah, okay, have a bit of armour, but not very good, a bit of weapons training, not very good, a bit of spells, not very good, and make the rest up with some skills. I felt like the game designers didn't care half as much about the bards as they did the fighters, rogues, wizards, paladins and clerics. So maybe 5e has made them a powerful class now, but I still feel like they don't have their own niche, they just pinch from others. Maybe you're just meant to RP your way past it? I always thought OoTS highlighted it well in the earlier strips, with Elan nonsensically strumming his lute whilst the others fought for their lives.

In Earthdawn, where every PC-type hero (and more or less everyone in the world) used magic to some degree in their lives, the PCs were split into various disciplines (their word for 'class', each being a mystic training order), so you had your Warriors, your Archers, your Sky Raiders, your Thieves, your Cavalrymen, your Swordsmasters, your Elementalists, your Illusionists, your Wizards, your Nethermancers, your Beastmasters and your Troubadours. Don't think I'm missing any out. It was more or less a post-apocalyptic setting, rediscovering what survived in the world after the magic level (and attendant invasion of sanity-blasting badass demons) receded, and the hundreds of years of hiding ended. So there was few settlements left, many isolated, and only the bones of new nations forming up. Troubadours were not only dashing hero types, but also the scholars, the messengers, the entertainers, the teachers of that world. I guess, fluff-wise, not so unique, but in typical DnD worlds, there probably is a well-established stable civilisation all around where this type of character might be redundant, but not so in Earthdawn; so Troubadours were kind of the glue that stuck the various isolated communities together. And each class/discipline had unique talents (magic-powered skills, essentially), including Troubadours. The role of that class was much more instrumental to the setting, rather than the afterthought that they seem to me in DnD.

I've not played Earthdawn for years, and I imagine there isn't that much material available to support it, and after FASA failed, I'm not sure if any games companies did that much with it. Its mechanics were clunky as hell, and we found it a very harsh game for characters to survive in, but I loved the lore of the setting, and the creature design and the magic item systems (all magic items had a rule set similiar to 4e's 'concordance' for artifacts - you didn't just get a generic +1 sword, instead you had to explore the item's history to unlock its powers, and each item was a campaign thread by default) for me are head and shoulders above DnD.

The troubadour sounds exactly like what I want to play. Never played earthdawn, Ill pick up a copy.



Real bards were believed to have magic and could curse a person, give them foul luck, predict the future (which is part of the eulogy and a bard function), or change shape (a magical ability attributed to bards and not druids in folklore). Bards also filled several roles in society and were considered super scholars of the time after spending years in colleges in study.

The point of learning stories was not in order to entertain; it was in order to teach and advise. Bards taught through parable, maintained history, and advised on appropriate custom based on the oral history they learned, maintained, and passed down. The role in society changed over time as written histories replaced oral histories so there are various representations possible.

Historically, bards were magicians, healers, prophets, teachers, judges, eulogizers (originally the eulogy included a prediction of the life of the successor and was included in bard duties), geneologists (a very large part of the job as bards could validate lineage and title), historians, advisors, heralds, linguists, and could be called on to fight if necessary. They were also the newspaper, television, radio, and internet of the time as the main source of information from one village to the next in their travels.

Merlin was mentioned earlier. The legends of Merlin were based on Myrrdin, and he was a bard. So was Taliesin and so was Amergin. These are characters who performed great feats of magic as bards. Even Gandalf and Tom Bombadil have roots in Finnish mythology and a basis on bards (Väinämöinen the eternal bard in this case).

People believed bards could predict the future or cause boils to appear on one's face if a person angered them. That's why we have magical bards based on folklore.


It's not hard to imagine a witch doctor dancing around shaking rattles and chanting as part of a magical ritual so why is it less imaginable that a bard doing something similar would be different?


The magic (historical folklore) came from "awen" which is true inspiration. Inspiration didn't quite have the same meaning as it does these days and once upon a long time ago meant "in spirit" as in "possessed in spirit". The general idea is true inspiration allows for seeing the truth in reality in an animistic sense and the magic is drawing out or reshaping that truth.

I enjoy the story of Taliesin as he went to Maelgwn's keep to free Elphin and in the process cursed Maelgwn's bards so they could not sing, called up a windstorm that shook the keep, sang the chains off Elphin, and tricked Maelgwn during a race by causing Maelgwn's horses to dance (or stumble depending on version).


Converting bards to the D&D setting meant applying D&D magic while differentiating them from other spellcasters. That means D&D spells, mechanics, and campaign lore. They are arcane casters (sidenote: spells are not arcane or divine in 5e. Arcane spellcasters such as bards, sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, arcane tricksters, and eldritch knights access the magic weave directly and divine spellcasters such as clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers access the magic weave via an intermediary force) that can access magic whether it's been picked up from others on their travels or the echos of creation or the power of true inspiration that they shape with their magic.

If that's not a good enough explanation then the bottom line is that it is what it is. D&D bards do use magic as per some old folklore so the alternative is a barbarian or rogue with an appropriate background to match concept.


Hopefully that helps.

I have nothing to say Exapt THANK YOU. your reply was WONDERFUl

[JackPhoenix]

Both celtic inspiration for the bards and being jacks-of-all-trades was already mentioned, so I'll just add that back in 1e, you had to multiclass (or whatever it was called back then) from a fighter to a thief and finally a druid (IIRC) before becoming a bard...it was the original Prestige Class.

[AvatarVecna]

Both celtic inspiration for the bards and being jacks-of-all-trades was already mentioned, so I'll just add that back in 1e, you had to multiclass (or whatever it was called back then) from a fighter to a thief and finally a druid (IIRC) before becoming a bard...it was the original Prestige Class.

I've heard it said that being a bard required that you suck until level 12, at which point you outclassed pretty much everyone for the rest of the campaign.