Fluffwise, why isn't sneak attage damage multiplied on a crit?

[ben-zayb]

As the question above, it really makes me wonder why the archetypal class most related to critical strikes and sneaking fail to be better at combining both.

Thoughts?

[Necromancy]

A crit and sneak are both precision damage

[Necromancy]

Fluff wise let's say, a crit is when you stab someone and accidentally hit a vital organ, and a sneak is hitting a vital organ on purpose

[Eloel]

Fluff wise let's say, a crit is when you stab someone and accidentally hit a vital organ, and a sneak is hitting a vital organ on purpose

You can still crit while sneak-attacking though, you just don't multiply the sneak attack damage.

[KillianHawkeye]

Listen, there isn't a fluff reason at all because the designers had already decided it should be this way for game balance reasons and left it at that.

[bjoern]

You can still crit while sneak-attacking though, you just don't multiply the sneak attack damage.

There is no fluff reason. WotC was concerned about rogues being too good . they didn't want the guy with the dagger to deal 30+ damage. It would give the fighter with a 1d12 axe a complex.

[Eloel]

There is no fluff reason. WotC was concerned about rogues being too good . they didn't want the guy with the dagger to deal 30+ damage. It would give the fighter with a 1d12 axe a complex.

3d12+18 for a 18 strength fighter's crit with the greataxe at level 1, but yes, d12.

[Necromancy]

3d12+18 for a 18 strength fighter's crit with the greataxe at level 1, but yes, d12.

And they were right to do so
Rogues are OP

[DarkestKnight]

I always understood sneak attack damage to come from two elements: the result of an aimed strike, and a blow that wasn't expected (either via hiding, or simply being out maneuvered). Aiming for the neck, noggin, joints, tendons, and/or what-have-ye will do more noticeable damage. However not all attacks hit, and not all hits are equal. Maybe you do catch your opponent in the ribs with your stabbers. Minimum SA damage is your knives hitting bone, maximum is slipping them through. Critical strikes don't multiply the damage from hitting a vital area because that damage was already represented by the fact that you wanted to use Shadowrun dice pools in Dungeons and Dragons and rolled precision damage, which to me accurately reflects the nature of that extra damage. Don't ask me about Skirmish damage though, I got nothing on that.

[Necromancy]

I always understood sneak attack damage to come from two elements: the result of an aimed strike, and a blow that wasn't expected

I assure you sir, a blow gains no extra damage from how surprising it was.

[Albions_Angel]

No but I see what he means when he says unexpected. In a battle situation, you are "expected" to hit certain areas, and those areas are therefore well protected. But a rogue using sneak attack gets behind the person and attacks areas that are poorly protected, because no one is supposed to get behind you. Or they go for a non vital area like the hamstrings, which would be hard to hit with a broadsword but are easy up close with a dagger and would cripple an opponent.

As for fluff. How is this.

When you sneak attack you go for a vital and often unprotected area, or a crippling area. Knee joints, hamstrings, kidneys, etc. The sneak attack damage takes into account these crippling blows. But the movement of yourself and your target can still twist the blade. Maybe it twists and you nick an artery, or the tip snaps and gets lodged in the joint.

The sneak attack damage isnt multiplied because the vital area you hit isnt actually damaged any more. The critical is an ADDITIONAL FACTOR to damage, not actually ADDITIONAL DAMAGE DEALT.

[Dysart]

My take on it is this:

Sneak Attacks, they hit vital organs and 'soft' spots that hurt more.

Criticals, are lucky hits (litterally for most weapons) and have two different types of lucky hits. For the 18/19-20 variants it's the follow through of the light weapons, hitting multiple limbs or parts of the body. For the x3 varients it's that extra momentum (for example the Great Axe) and with that momentum it cleaves through parts of the body.

[atemu1234]

You can still crit while sneak-attacking though, you just don't multiply the sneak attack damage.

Because a critical hit is luck, and a sneak attack is skill.

[Eloel]

Because a critical hit is luck, and a sneak attack is skill.

And that is relevant because?

[Dysart]

And that is relevant because?

Because that's how the game works... with tiny differences...

[Urpriest]

As the question above, it really makes me wonder why the archetypal class most related to critical strikes and sneaking fail to be better at combining both.

Thoughts?

Care to back that up? I haven't run into any D&D fluff connecting rogues to critical hits.

[Trasilor]

As the question above, it really makes me wonder why the archetypal class most related to critical strikes and sneaking fail to be better at combining both.

Thoughts?

I think most people are forgetting Hit Points are an abstract concept.



Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Also...


What Hit Points Represent
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

To equate a sneak attack or critical as hitting a vital organ is a fallacy (or actually striking the enemy at all). For example, if you attack an enemy for 8 points of damage and they have 8 hit points - your blow was mortal and the enemy falls. If you attack another enemy with the same weapon and do 8 points of damage and the enemy has 16 hp, you simply wounded the enemy. Same weapon, same damage, half as effective.

The narrative (or fluff) is not driven by the nominal damage - i.e. 8 points of damage equates to X happening - instead it more depends on the percentage your damage represents. In the first example, the attack was 100% lethal; while the second, was only 50%.

[Kid Jake]

You can still crit while sneak-attacking though, you just don't multiply the sneak attack damage.

That just means you accidentally nicked an artery while stabbing a guy in the kidneys.

[Dysart]

I think most people are forgetting Hit Points are an abstract concept.
To equate a sneak attack or critical as hitting a vital organ is a fallacy (or actually striking the enemy at all). For example, if you attack an enemy for 8 points of damage and they have 8 hit points - your blow was mortal and the enemy falls. If you attack another enemy with the same weapon and do 8 points of damage and the enemy has 16 hp, you simply wounded the enemy. Same weapon, same damage, half as effective.

The narrative (or fluff) is not driven by the nominal damage - i.e. 8 points of damage equates to X happening - instead it more depends on the percentage your damage represents. In the first example, the attack was 100% lethal; while the second, was only 50%.

Mind blown.....

[The Insanity]

Because fluffwise they're the same thing.

[ben-zayb]

Care to back that up? I haven't run into any D&D fluff connecting rogues to critical hits.You forgot to emphasize "archetypal" as well, which was what I referred () to in general instead of just D&D fluff.

Seems like there's no consensus on fluff explanations, although I'd point out that Crit being a lucky strike IMO doesn't mean that much when, fluffwise, lucky strike translates to also hitting the right/vital/weak spot accidentally just as an aimed sneak attack would've done.

The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that while methods to achieve crit damage and sneak attack damage are different, their "damage type" are pretty much the same fluffwise, but are somehow handled differently mechanically.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, let's put it this way. Fluff-wise, anybody who is trained in combat should know the most effective places to hit their enemy; the Rogue simple trains in techniques that are more effective when they can catch their foe in a state of distraction or surprise. So we can think of Sneak Attack as being a bonus to damage that is not dependent on the weapon but on the techniques that a Rogue uses to attack. Therefore, a Rogue has just as much chance to get in a lucky hit (a crit) as anybody else, to the same effect of increased damage based on their weapon.

In other words, a critical hit represents an especially good hit, while Sneak Attack represents a technique the Rogue uses that is super effective in certain situations. That would be the explanation I'd choose if I needed to have a fluff reason for Sneak Attack not being multiplied on a crit.

[Coidzor]

As the question above, it really makes me wonder why the archetypal class most related to critical strikes and sneaking fail to be better at combining both.

Thoughts?

There isn't as far as I am aware, because it's not something that's ever really been fluffed all that much either way, but you can come up with a post-hoc rationalization for it if you really want.


And they were right to do so
Rogues are OP

No, no they are not.:smallconfused: