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View Full Version : Optimization Shield Master Rogue: The Iron Scoundrel



Easy_Lee
2015-03-23, 11:00 PM
The idea is to build an extremely tanky rogue/fighter who excels at getting his sneak attacks, both on his own turn and on anyone else's.

Concept
Character designed to be very hard to kill while using riposte to get extra sneak attacks and shield master to guarantee advantage. If your DM does not appreciate you getting an additional sneak attack some rounds as your reaction, or houserules sneak attack to only work once per round, then pick a different build.

Background, Story, and Personality
Background would be either urchin or criminal. Concept is that this character was a street thief who, upon being caught, was drafted into the military. He got out after serving his due time, and decided to direct his talents towards a life of treasure-hunting and adventuring.

In other words, he starts as a rogue, takes a long dip in fighter as a soldier, then continues as a rogue. Because of the prowess and exceptional survivability this leaves him with, our friend is extremely cocky, and likely is an insulting jerk. For bonus points, make sure he's biased against every other playable race, especially if he's a halfling. Spend lots of time taunting others to just try and hit you. Neither the life of a thief or medieval soldier lends itself well to political correctness or good manners, after all.

Race
Halflings, wood elves, and variant humans all work very well. If human, I suggest the feats Mobile or Healer.

Stats
We want to start with 16 in both Dexterity and Strength if possible, or 17 Dexterity and 15 Strength otherwise. Work it out with your DM; these are not unreasonable stats to expect. Stick a 14 in Con.

Skills
Only stealth and athletics are required. Everything else depends on what you like, though you will be good at the dexterity skills.

Build


LClassProficiencySneak AttackFeatures
1Rogue21d6Expertise (Athletics + Stealth); sneak attack; Thieves' Cant
2Rogue21d6Cunning Action
3Fighter21d6Fighting Style (Armored); Second Wind
4Fighter21d6Action Surge
5Fighter31d6Martial Archetype (Battle Master)
6Fighter31d6Shield Master
7Fighter31d6Extra Attack
8Fighter31d6Medium Armor Master
9Rogue42d6Roguish Archetype (Thief)
10Rogue42d6Dexterity +2, or Dexterity +1 and Strength +1 (even totals)
11Rogue43d6Uncanny Dodge
12Rogue43d6Expertise (Two of Preference)
13Rogue54d6Evasion
14Rogue54d6Dexterity +2
15Rogue55d6Roguish Archetype Feature
16Rogue55d6Sentinel; Mage Slayer; Or Defensive Duelist
17Rogue66d6Reliable Talent
18Rogue66d6Sentinel; Mage Slayer; Or Defensive Duelist
19Rogue67d6Roguish Archetype Feature
20Fighter67d6Martial Archetype Feature


Explanation
1-2: Self-explanatory. Dual wield for now to maximize damage.
3-4: Pick up a shield and rapier. We take the armored fighting style because dueling would only add about 2-4ish damage per round, or a little more on rounds where we get a reaction. In addition, riposte only triggers when the opponent misses us with an attack, so we want our AC high. Since we have medium armor, we have an expected AC of 20 as soon as we get our hands on half-plate. Nice.
5: We take battle master because it's the best for getting sneak attack. We want precision attack and riposte for guaranteeing those sneak attacks. Final maneuver is your choice, but I like disarming attack.
6: Here's where the build starts to get fun. Shield master grants a form of evasion which adds your shield AC bonus to certain dexterity rolls. In addition, we can push targets on our turn as a bonus action. We'll be using that ability to knock targets prone whenever possible. Since we have expertise in athletics and 16 strength, we're usually going to succeed in knocking targets prone.
7-8: Extra attack and medium armor master, bringing our AC up to 21 and giving us two chances per turn to dish out sneak attack damage. Where our damage was a bit lacking before, we're about to start more-than making up for that. In addition, we'll qualify for riposte that much more often, and can use the best medium armor without losing our stealth bonus.
9: And the thiefing and dungeon crawling begins. Thief is chosen because its level 9 and 13 features are far more useful than those of assassin, and it fits the character better. Arcane Trickster is good, but doesn't really fit the flavor of the build, and would necessitate picking up the war caster feat (which we don't want to have to afford if we aren't variant humans).
10+We spend the rest of our leveling career adding sneak attack damage every two levels, yielding as steady a damage progression as they come. We take the next two ASIs to increase our dexterity to max, and from there have some options for feats that come down to choice (I've given some recommendations). We gain evasion at 13, just in case there was any doubt about us succeeding big on dexterity saves. At 19, we get the UMD ability and can use every last bit of the treasure we've acquired over our long career. The last level is spend on fighter, as an extra superiority die and the ability are more useful than blindsense. You may choose to take this level earlier.

Variants
One can take two extra levels of fighter for an extra ASI, though you lose sneak attack. If opponents are attacking your allies instead of you too often, you can take the sentinel feat (possibly as a human bonus) to grant yourself reaction attacks when that happens and make it even more difficult for foes to run away. Starting fighter instead of rogue yields fewer skills, but qualifies you for full plate if you don't wish to utilize stealth. An assassin variant would have a stronger open, though the assassin level 9 and 13 bonuses are not nearly as useful as the thief's.

Final Thoughts
This build has weaknesses, and those weaknesses are saves other than dexterity. Your strength and intellect saves will be decent, but on others you will likely fail. That said, wisdom, charisma, and constitution saves don't usually kill you outright, and a DM trying to kill you would find a way regardless of build.

This build is designed for tankiness and utility first, damage second. That said, it can expect to put out 3(1d8+5)+2(7d6)=77.5 damage on good round at 19. As early as level 7, the expected damage on a good round is as high as 3(1d8+3)+2(1d6)=29.5. Having bonus action shoves on top of that, knocking targets prone and granting you and your allies advantage, make the build's damage very consistent.

In addition to that, you can take the level of thief earlier if you prefer, just so you have a bonus action ready for anything. Thief really fills out the build, giving it something to do on any turn. Stow your rapier in your shield hand while you bonus action drop caltrops, or spill oil, or use ball-bearings, or lock a door, or push over a ladder, or bonus action heal an ally if you took the healer feat. Be creative, finding bonus action opportunities to do other things while you're at it. The additional jump speed and penalty-free climbing are much appreciated as well, guaranteeing that you are a competent dungeon delver.

WickerNipple
2015-03-24, 12:13 AM
Very nice, well thought out and explained.

I played a very similar thief in 4th and enjoyed it a lot.

Stealthscout
2015-03-25, 08:08 AM
Actually, I thought of something similar a while back but using straight rogue strength-based mountain dwarf or human with medium armor feat and no more than a 14 dex. The guy is all about intimidation and combat and not stealth. For expertise, you can focus on Athletics and something else (Intimidation?, throw them off with slight of hand?) If you give that one skill up you start seeing just how tough the rogue is, especially in one-on-one melee.

Combat is pretty simple - Dual wield a short sword/rapier and an axe or just barehanded and use that bonus attack to trip when you need advantage. You are already wearing half plate which gives you just as good defense as a huge-dex rogue and have the combination of evasion and uncanny dodge to give you effectively double the HP.

Fun and surprisingly effective.


Oh, and second the the clean write up. Well done.

ChubbyRain
2015-03-25, 11:29 AM
Replace fighter with barbarian and you get advantage on your attack (maneuvers are weapon attacks?), tankiness with rage, and lots of other goodies.

Danger sense will be overkill but whatever, being almost immune to one sort of save isn't bad.

Rogue 2/Fighter 4/Barbarian 14

Maybe drop fighter down to 3 or 2, persistent rage would be worth it.

You will be a mobile, death dealing, tanky, shield wielding machine. You may not have the best damage but they won't see you coming u til they are looking up at you from the ground (+12 stealth if used expertise on a Dex 10 build).

I'm thinking Goliath for the race, free athletics!

Goliath Noble (one of the best background features, and I like the idea of it) Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian (totem) 16

Disengage is a bonus action and you can hulk fly, +4 rage damage, and rage doesn't stop u til you want it to? Yeah nice.

I say put tavern brawler in there somewhere and jat use the shield itself as your weapon. 1d8 versitile sounds about right for a hunk of metal. Then you get shield master + tavern brawler options.

Person_Man
2015-03-25, 03:06 PM
Awesome.

I wonder if there are ways to optimize the basic concept further.

The main issues I see are:

Shield Master Shove, Cunning Action, and Fast Hands all compete for the same Bonus Action.
Riposte is limited to Superiority Die, and you don't get a lot of them.
Every level of non-Rogue reduces your Sneak Attack damage, and thus lowers the damage on your Opportunity Attack (unless its a Riposte, which adds the Superiority Die to damage).
There's some overlap between Shield Master and Evasion, which renders each of them slightly less useful.


I wonder if it would be more effective to split up into two characters, with one focused on Shove and the other focused on Opportunity Attacks?

Easy_Lee
2015-03-25, 03:21 PM
I wonder if it would be more effective to split up into two characters, with one focused on Shove and the other focused on Opportunity Attacks?

Certainly. One might pair a BM fighter using commanding strike with a pure rogue to much greater effect. If I knew that a companion would play a BM fighter or similar build that assisted in my reactions and defense, then I wouldn't consider this build. Oddly enough, pure rogue is more of a specialist, while this build is more general purpose.

I designed the build to be self-sufficient, able to do almost anything it would ever need to on a given turn, as a bonus action or reaction no less. I also suspect that there's quite a bit of fun to be had with a high dexterity, athletics expertise shield master build. It's the ideal sort of character to ride one's shield, after all, particularly if acrobatics expertise is also taken (a bit redundant, but would be a fun choice).

The main things I wanted from the build were extra attack, shield mastery, and medium armor mastery. Fighter 6 was just the easiest way to get them, BM made the most sense for archetype, and thief 14 has more useful features than assassin (in my opinion).

Edit: incidentally, the extra damage from extra attack and extra levels of sneak attack are not too different. 3d6 for six levels or rogue averages to 10.5 damage. An extra 1d8 with attribute is up to 9.5 average damage. SA is doubled if one gets a qualifying opportunity attack or crit, so it's some lost potential to take extra attack. At the same time, extra attack (and in this case, the other features that came with it) increase the likelihood that one will get sneak attack in a given turn. Lower damage, more consistency.

Dorphius
2015-04-09, 11:04 PM
Concept
Character designed to be very hard to kill while using riposte to get extra sneak attacks and shield master to guarantee advantage. If your DM does not appreciate you getting an additional sneak attack some rounds as your reaction, or houserules sneak attack to only work once per round, then pick a different build.

The DM would have to house rule the extra sneak attack damage on additional attacks, not house rule it the other way around. The PHB clearly states you can only use sneak attack once per turn. So using that logic your sorcerer could cast two fireballs on the same turn.

Easy_Lee
2015-04-10, 12:16 AM
The DM would have to house rule the extra sneak attack damage on additional attacks, not house rule it the other way around. The PHB clearly states you can only use sneak attack once per turn. So using that logic your sorcerer could cast two fireballs on the same turn.

Turn, not round. If you attack on another's turn, that satisfies the once/turn sneak attack requirement. Sneak attack was worded such that it can be applied to reaction attacks; I believe this was deliberate, since it makes a kind of sense (stab them in the back while they try to run away), though I'm not positive.

MrStabby
2015-04-10, 04:44 AM
I have played pretty much this and it was great fun. I uses a whip not a rapier though and had a slave driver background (Neutral Evil can be quite fun to play).

I always found the hard part to be working out when to stop with fighter - I always wanted more but never being sure when to stop I usually ended up just taking more rogue.

Easy_Lee
2015-04-10, 07:53 AM
I have played pretty much this and it was great fun. I uses a whip not a rapier though and had a slave driver background (Neutral Evil can be quite fun to play).

I always found the hard part to be working out when to stop with fighter - I always wanted more but never being sure when to stop I usually ended up just taking more rogue.

I'd say 6 and 11 are the most reasonable break points. Fighter 11 is useful in its own right, though it produces a different kind of character and would probably warrant different archetypes. Champion Fighter 11 / Assassin Rogue 9 could be really good.

diplomancer
2015-04-10, 04:54 PM
I think halflings can't shove any creature larger than Medium, which would make it a bad choice for this build.

MrStabby
2015-04-10, 06:31 PM
I'd say 6 and 11 are the most reasonable break points. Fighter 11 is useful in its own right, though it produces a different kind of character and would probably warrant different archetypes. Champion Fighter 11 / Assassin Rogue 9 could be really good.

I think level six is pretty good for the second ASI but it seems less urgent. I think I went Fighter 1 rogue 4 (taking assassin), then fighter to 5 then rogue to 5. I didn't get any further than that before the campaign ended. I think I would have taken Fighter 6 next.