[3.5] Human bard help

[Alberic Strein]

Hello folks!

So, I'm pretty much lost over here. I am quite unfamiliar with 3.5 and I always hated, hated bards. As it happens though, I can't help but love classes with CHA-synergy. And vikings. So one day I just got up and decided to build a skald. Because skalds are awesome and they push the right buttons within me. One issue is that I really don't know how to build a bard and there are some additional issues on top of that. The character is going to be used on a PBP website in my mother tongue with restricted books, so I don't have access to a LOT of things. As to what I don't have access to... It's pretty dodgy. For example I can use Bardic Knack from PHBII for bards, but NOT Dark Companion, from PHBII for hexblades. I also have to cross-translate pretty much any and everything so it's incredibly tedious. So please try to keep it as core as possible with your pointers, since I need to cross reference/translate pretty much everything before I get to use it. (Am I accurately making you feel how TEDIOUS this is?)

Anyway, the things I really would like to keep:
Race: Human (vanilla) Rashemi
Class: Savage Bard / Barbarian
1st level Feat: Dradful Wrath / ? /

It's goint to be a 30-point buy. I'm thinking Cha 16, Str 14, Int/Con/Dex 12, Wis 8. That's 28 points. For the two last, I'm hesitating between upping Con or Dex to 14, or both to 13. Is the feat to grant Rage to an ally worth it? As it needs 13 Con and could be a dealmaker.

I would like to at least get a level of barbarian into the mix, for flavor, rage, enhanced movement (can't trade it for pounce) proficiencies and to give it a more gishy feel, since I have an unmitigated love for gishes. Maybe select Barbarian at lvl1 to be sure to get the most out of that d12 hit die.

I'm not sure if snowflake wardance is going to be worth it. It keys off performance (dance) which I don't particularly like, and it's limited to one handed slashing weapons. Insight?

For prestige classes, I think I'll take virtuoso and sublime chord. Not gishy in the slightest, but they advance Inspire courage and give 9th level spellcasting. And you don't say no to 9th level spellcasting.

So here it is, I'm looking for all the help I can get, even some very general tips and pointers to playing bards.

Meanwhile I'll try to see what tricks from the "X stat to Y bonus" thread I can use.

[Hiro Quester]

The Bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145396) will be your friend. so will the guide to optimizing Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=t1recffcmvmg6siets3bf9asm5&topic=9830.0).

A far as "core as possible" that will be hard. Esp. if you want to go virtuoso/SC. Bards get a lot of love from splatbooks, but core bard losses out on a lot of that. And neither virtuoso nor SC are core.

Put extra points into 14 CON. You will need the hit points if you are going to gish. You are going to want to put all your level bonuses into CHA.

SFWD is totally worth it. For more gishy goodness, get dragonblood so you can learn dragonfire inspiration to add 1d6 damage from every point your Inspire courage would grant. get gauntlets of heartfelt blows (add you Cha bonus infer damage). Slippers of battledancing will also ad CHA to attack and damage (though check with your DM whether this will stack with SFWD).

There are plenty of options for a skald-type bard that doesn't need the barbarian dip. For instance bard gets access to the rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) spell (with no fatigue at the end). Put the viking stuff into roleplaying, and don't take the hit to your caster level.

Though between Bard 8 and starting sublime chord at 10 you can take one or two levels of a class that does not advance casting (since SC has it's own casting). That's when typically take the first level of virtuoso. I like bard 9 and even bard 10, though because 4th level bard spells. you have to learn Sirine's Grace at 4th (adds your CHA bonus to AC).

Taking a level of barbarian might also work (I don't know much about barbarians and what the barb dip might do for you. You said no pounce, but I should mention spirit lion totem barbarian that gets pounce. This is how you take advantage of SFWD, being able to make a full attack with all those bonus. Sep if you get slippers of battle dancing which require you to move 10 feet. Getting access to pounce is essential to milk those slippers for their CHA bonus to hit and damage.

If you do rage, remember that you can't sing while doing so (as I recall; again, I don't know much about rage). The Lingering song feat will help you, by keeping a song effective for 10 rounds after you stop singing instead of five. Melodic casting is a must-have for a SC build. Lets you cast spells while singing, and lets you dump concentration (make a perform check instead).

The bard spell Harmonize is going to help you a lot (lets you start barding music as a move action, so you can sing and cast in the same round).

[Alberic Strein]

The Bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145396) will be your friend. so will the guide to optimizing Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=t1recffcmvmg6siets3bf9asm5&topic=9830.0).
Already using the handbook, but I feel Dictuum Mortuum really adressed the "bard as a caster" issue and not so much the "gish" bit I was interested in.

A far as "core as possible" that will be hard. Esp. if you want to go virtuoso/SC. Bards get a lot of love from splatbooks, but core bard losses out on a lot of that. And neither virtuoso nor SC are core.
Oh I CAN bring material from outside of core, it is just that finding out whether or not I am allowed to use it is horrendously tiresome. I already did the work for Virtuoso and SC so now I can use them without problems, but it would be better if we limited the feats/magic items/etc... To core and complete books, since there are better odds of them being allowed then.

Put extra points into 14 CON. You will need the hit points if you are going to gish. You are going to want to put all your level bonuses into CHA.
Done. 14 Con it is.

SFWD is totally worth it. For more gishy goodness, get dragonblood so you can learn dragonfire inspiration to add 1d6 damage from every point your Inspire courage would grant. get gauntlets of heartfelt blows (add you Cha bonus infer damage). Slippers of battledancing will also ad CHA to attack and damage (though check with your DM whether this will stack with SFWD).
Welcome. To my. Nightmare.
Here, let me give you a breakdown of what I just had to do:
Note the names.
Try a literal translation.
Go to the website.
Try and see which magic items correspond name-wise. Half a dozen results each.
Note those results.
Go to my friend's, use his books in my native language (mine are in english) and see if there is a match.
The only one that comes close to the "gauntlets of heartfelt blows" gives +cha modifier in the most commonly resisted elemental damage.
That's it. The slippers? They don't exist. The Vest of valor? Ditto. The Crystal Echoblade? Di-frakking-tto.
Since my sanity will likely break if I have to do that a few more times, I beg you, please limit it to core when you can.

Oh, and dragonblood is worth it? Okay, 3.5 damage per point the Inspire courage should grant is awesome, but it comes at the cost of:
Dragonblood
Draconic Heritage
Dragonfire Inspiration

Which is a hefty investment, no?

There are plenty of options for a skald-type bard that doesn't need the barbarian dip. For instance bard gets access to the rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) spell (with no fatigue at the end). Put the viking stuff into roleplaying, and don't take the hit to your caster level.
I always thought that as long as you didn't lose a spell level, losing a couple of caster levels wasn't THAT bad. And early game, which is the only part of the game you're pretty sure you're going to play, a barbarian dip helps a lot, no?

Though between Bard 8 and starting sublime chord at 10 you can take one or two levels of a class that does not advance casting (since SC has it's own casting). That's when typically take the first level of virtuoso. I like bard 9 and even bard 10, though because 4th level bard spells. you have to learn Sirine's Grace at 4th (adds your CHA bonus to AC).
Noted.

Taking a level of barbarian might also work (I don't know much about barbarians and what the barb dip might do for you. You said no pounce, but I should mention spirit lion totem barbarian that gets pounce. This is how you take advantage of SFWD, being able to make a full attack with all those bonus. Sep if you get slippers of battle dancing which require you to move 10 feet. Getting access to pounce is essential to milk those slippers for their CHA bonus to hit and damage.
And I should have been clearer in mentioning I didn't get pounce.
Here is the breakdown of my unpouncing state:
Go to website.
Open supporter material from Complete Champion
Get a list of names (and nothing else)
Spirit totems or any alternative class features for barbarians don't exist. Savage bard does though, so hurray for that.
Not pounce.

The silver lining being that I don't have to feel like I am not getting as much out of my slippers as I should, since I don't have the slippers in the first place!

If you do rage, remember that you can't sing while doing so (as I recall; again, I don't know much about rage). The Lingering song feat will help you, by keeping a song effective for 10 rounds after you stop singing instead of five. Melodic casting is a must-have for a SC build. Lets you cast spells while singing, and lets you dump concentration (make a perform check instead).
And harmonizing weapons do keep singing, though they are inferior to Lingering song. And I DO get Harmonizing weapons, unlike Lingering Song, which I don't. Silver lining: I get Melodic casting.

The bard spell Harmonize is going to help you a lot (lets you start barding music as a move action, so you can sing and cast in the same round).
It might be me, but I was utterly unable to find the spell harmonize. I got Harmony, which is a WELCOME buff to inspire courage, but that's it. In which book is it?

[atemu1234]

You're human, which is good, bonus feat and a bonus full ranked skill.

So the handbook is already linked...

So I have little to do here.

Maybe give up the skill, become a Silverbrow Human?

[Red Fel]

Maybe give up the skill, become a Silverbrow Human?

This. Dragonfire Inspiration, while awesome, only requires three things: A Cha score, Bardic Music, and the Dragonblood subtype.

Two easy (and free) ways to gain the Dragonblood subtype are taking a Dragonblood race, or taking the Dragonborn template. Since you want to keep Human (and that tasty bonus feat), just grab Silverbrow Human instead, which gives you Dragonblood for free.

I don't know why you're taking Draconic Heritage, unless you want to change your DFI energy type.

As an aside, a fun combination of things to toss onto a Barbarian, particularly a charismatic one:
- Instantaneous Rage feat: As the name says, Rage instantly, even when it's not your turn.
- Intimidating Rage feat: When you rage, you can demoralize (e.g. shaken, scared, panicked, etc.) one target.
- Never Outnumbered skill trick: When you demoralize an opponent, you can instead demoralize every enemy within 10 feet.
- Imperious Command feat: When you demoralize an opponent, he cowers for one round and is shaken the next.

How it ties together? Rage whenever you want. Every enemy in ten feet must make a check against your Intimidate or start cowering. Whenever you want, instant Intimidate-bomb.

There are some great things you can do with an intimidating Bard-barian. I think Biff had a build someplace that was absolutely cruel.

[Hiro Quester]

Oh, and dragonblood is worth it? Okay, 3.5 damage per point the Inspire courage should grant is awesome, but it comes at the cost of:
Dragonblood
Draconic Heritage
Dragonfire Inspiration

Which is a hefty investment, no?

you can just be a silverbrow human. Otherwise it's one or the other of dragon blood or draconic heritage, I think. Or just get your DM to agree that you have a dragon ancestor.

Darrin just made a post (#6) in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19006682)today, about ways of getting DFI cheaply.



And harmonizing weapons do keep singing, though they are inferior to Lingering song. And I DO get Harmonizing weapons, unlike Lingering Song, which I don't.

It is inferior to lingering song, in that lingering song enables you to start another bardic music each round and have the effects of previous songs continue ten rounds. Harmonizing weapon switches songs with you.


It might be me, but I was utterly unable to find the spell harmonize. I got Harmony, which is a WELCOME buff to inspire courage, but that's it. In which book is it?

Races of Stone. Bard level 2 spell.