Optimizing bardsader

[Sam K]

So, my promising cleric-going-RKV came to a sticky end at the hands of a fistful of dice, a wererat with minions, and a lucky series of hits and crits (everything hit his AC19 in the same round, and he ended up at -20 hp). Perhaps meleeing everything as a level 1 cloistered cleric (even if he WAS a draconic water orc) was a bit ambitious.

He might get raised, but the campaign is on hold for a couple of weeks, so I'm exploring my options for interesting replacements, and something I've been looking into is a bardsader. I'm not really sure what I can do to max out it's performance, though. I have some ideas but I'd like some second (and third, and forth) opinions.

For the background, the party is ECL3, I belive (we were ECL 2 when I died, but we were about to ding). It's a solo campaign with the DM running 2 supporting characters - these are not DMNPCs as such, they are less optimized and I have no say in how they develop (probably why everything ended up attacking me, I was just such an obvious threat). Other party members are a sentinent half-orc zombie of some type (tank, damage reduction) and a tiefling skill monkey. One of the reasons I'm considering bardsader is because I want to use DFI to help boost the party performance, while still remaining a melee powerhouse myself, ofcourse. As you can probably tell from my last char, I'm allowed to optimize pretty heavily, but not cheese out to use early entry tricks or stuff like that. But draconic water orc RKV was fine.

I know T1 caster would be better for that party, but that's not what the thread is about.

The idea for the bardsader is inspired by the dragonborn from Skyrim: not actually stealing dragon souls, but using "shouts" (likely perform: chanting in draconic) for magical effects, while remaining a powerful melee fighter. I really enjoyed using reach and AoOs with my cleric, so I'm planning on going combat reflexes and ticket of blades and just make tons of AoO. Probably not going for the heavy armor crusader, since I want to keep my bard casting (as it is) available. I might consider warblade instead of sader, but the sheer amount of choices and few powers known tend to give me anxiety attacks whenever I look at them ;)

Race?

First big question is what race I should go with. Silverbrow human is the obvious choice for DFI, but since I can take the draconic template I can get the dragon blooded subtype from there, leaving me open to pick another race. I don't want more than +1 LA though. Is there anything better than human for more rocking out and facesmashing? That extra feat is hard to beat, but I really enjoyed having the high str on my last character.

One option I considered was silverbrow human with llolth touched template. Feel kind of convulted IC though; a human with the blood of a good dragon, touched by Llolth, and might interfere with some PRCs I'm considering.

PRCs

Originally I just considered regular bardsader (probably bard 4/crusader X) but then I started looking at JPM. While JPM doesn't advance bardic music, it still advances bardic casting. JPM grants devoted spirit maneuvers, which means I can get into the high levels with atleast one school, while maintaining almost full bard casting. JPM grants full initiator levels, so bardic music advances nicely with it if I take song of the white raven.

Is there any real reason not to go JPM, other than "wizard would do it better"? Llolth toucheds "always CE" messes with this, obviously.

Are there any other good PRCs for this? All I can think of is abjurant champion, and the synergy is questionable...

[Firechanter]

I have my doubts that Song of White Raven works for JPM. The feat says nothing about Initiator Levels, only Crusie or Warbie Class Levels.

[Sam K]

Damnit, you're probably right.

*mope*

[Grod_The_Giant]

Damnit, you're probably right.

*mope*
Yeah. I'd say that your best bet is to pick one aspect of the bard (music or casting) and focus on that. For the former, go straight Crusader. For the latter, JPM is fine.

Although from what I've seen/can remember, most of the boosts to Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)are external, rather than being linked to your Bard progression, so you might not actually lose that much going JPM. Crusader 4/Bard 4/JPM 10? (You may want to do the usual "dip into Sublime Chord then use a different PrC to progress that casting" schtick on top of that)

[atemu1234]

Maybe a Dragonwrought Kobold Soul Eater?

[Darrin]

First big question is what race I should go with. Silverbrow human is the obvious choice for DFI, but since I can take the draconic template I can get the dragon blooded subtype from there, leaving me open to pick another race.


Are you getting the +1 LA for free? If so... ok. Silverbrow is the most expedient way to get dragonblood, but it also locks you into fire damage for DFI. Taking Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage allows you to switch the energy damage to something more interesting, like [sonic]. But it costs two feats. You can dip Dragonfire Adept to pick up Dragontouched, but that costs you a level. On the other hand... if you were already going to spend a level on the Draconic template, why not take DFA instead and get a breath weapon as well?

Another option: Dragonborn of Bahumat. "Oh, but I'll lose my human bonus feat!" you say. To which I say, read Races of the Dragon page 10, first column, last sentence at the bottom: "If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have." Bards have two ways to pick up bonus feats from class levels. 1) Ghostwalk page 141/errata, Bards from Salkiria gain EWP: Bola Flail as a bonus feat. Or 2), Eberron Campaign Setting, Music of Making: At Bard 3, swap inspire competence for Soothe the Beast. However, you probably want to take Song of the Heart and that has inspire competence as a prereq, so you may prefer swapping suggestion at Bard 6 for Music of Making. When you take Dragonborn, lose the EWP: Bola Flail or Music of Making instead.



Is there any real reason not to go JPM, other than "wizard would do it better"?


While JPM doesn't have the same crunch-factor as wizard or some other full-casting PrCs, it does have some great awesomesauce flavor. You get to explode for 20d6 damage, and then reappear 1d6 rounds later fully healed. Now if we could only get transcend mortality in there somehow...

Actually, I'd recommend something like:

Bard 4/Crusader 2/Abjurant Champion 3/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

Inspire Courage/DFI isn't quite so impressive there, though.

[Sam K]

I don't get free LA, but LA buyoff is allowed. Because I play from low levels, I'm hesitant to have "dips", because I actually have to play through all those levels. It doesn't just slow down my casting progressing IC, it actually eats up RL time earning those "dip" levels. Would the draconic template let me pick the draconic heritage feat? If so that would probably be the best option to switch my damage type to something less horrible.

Bard into JPM doesn't seem all that good when JPM doesn't advance bardic music, though; to me there's a big difference between picking something less optimal but different, and just picking something worse. Bardic casting and music is less optimal than wizard casting, but it adds something different. Bardic casting is just plain worse than wizard casting, though. JPM isn't over the top (except for the visual effects with the capstone!) when compared to some other casting PRCs. However, it progresses casting and IL, which is rare enough, and JPM actually does a pretty good job with the synergies. I'd be a bit worried about having to include the fluff in my characters background, but I think it could be managable.

I considered dragonborn; however, I would likely have to play the lore (being LG and serving Bahumat) and it doesn't really appeal to me. While my DM is very lenient with letting me take templates and odd races, he really dislikes using them only as building blocks and actually expects me to include the fluff in my RP. I don't much care for LG - LE was hard enough. I'm just not a lawful kind of person.

[Darrin]

Would the draconic template let me pick the draconic heritage feat?


No. There's a Sorcerer 1 substitution level where you can trade your familiar for it, or you can change your energy type by becoming a half-dragon. There are a half-dozen ways to add half-dragon, but even the least annoying of them will cost you three class levels.



I considered dragonborn; however, I would likely have to play the lore (being LG and serving Bahumat) and it doesn't really appeal to me.

The only alignment restriction on Dragonborn is you have to be non-evil. CG is perfectly acceptable (the metallic dragons from the chaotic/neutral spectrum have no problems worshipping Bahumat).

If you'd rather focus on Bardic Music, then I guess I'd consider two different options:

Standard Bardsader: Bard 4/Crusader 16 with Song of the White Raven. Ranged is probably best (no "only works within 30 feet" nonsense with DFI), maybe Killoren with the Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) feat. Or Silverbrow Human with TWF would still be fun. Downside is outside of Inspire Courage, just not really a lot of Bard in there.

Sublime Chord: Bard 7/Crusader 2/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Plenty of bardic music there, not so much crusader.