Help lvl 11 devastating critical build

[Temennigru]

I'm trying to make a build to use devastating critical at lvl 11, but I can't figure out a way to get to 24 strength at that level. Could somebody help?
Maybe there is a race with LA that gets bonus strength or something.

EDIT: Found it!
Centaur +8 str LA 2.


Any hints as to what other feats I can get besides the required ones?

[ZamielVanWeber]

18 Str to start. Water Orc gets another +4 for 22. 4 and 8 upgrades for 24, then add in a +2 Str item. 26 str by level 8.

How are you qualifying for an epic feat at 11 though?

[Eloel]

You can use temporary stuff (rage, magic items) to qualify for stuff, and you lose the benefit when you are below the requirements. Just have a +strength item. Or if you're a barbarian, grab the feat and only use it while raging. There are options there.

[Temennigru]

18 Str to start. Water Orc gets another +4 for 22. 4 and 8 upgrades for 24, then add in a +2 Str item. 26 str by level 8.

How are you qualifying for an epic feat at 11 though?

Is there some specific rule for epic feats?

[Temennigru]

You can use temporary stuff (rage, magic items) to qualify for stuff, and you lose the benefit when you are below the requirements. Just have a +strength item. Or if you're a barbarian, grab the feat and only use it while raging. There are options there.

Centaur works just fine for me.
And I need the fighter levels to get the feats I need.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Is there some specific rule for epic feats?

You need to be epic level to qualify for epic feats.

[Eloel]

Is there some specific rule for epic feats?


Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

This'll cause complications.

[Temennigru]

This'll cause complications.

I understand that some reces can get epic feats at earlier levels such as dragonwrought kobold.

[Eloel]

I understand that some reces can get epic feats at earlier levels such as dragonwrought kobold.

Dragonwrought Kobold Centaur what?

[Red Fel]

I understand that some reces can get epic feats at earlier levels such as dragonwrought kobold.

First off, no way you're getting your Str up that high, on a Kobold, as well as five feat prereqs, by level 11. But let's pretend you could - here's how.

In Draconomicon, the section on Dragon Feats, under the "Epic Feats" heading, says the following:
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels.

Some people take this to mean that a Dragonwrought Kobold, which is a Dragon (although not necessarily a True Dragon, that's a different dispute entirely) that has reached "at least old age" can choose these feats. The language "also" could be read to mean that epic feats can be taken by an Old Dragon, even if he is not of epic levels. In theory, a Kobold who is old or older could, under such an interpretation, qualify for epic feats.

Such an interpretation would result in books being thrown at you. Wear a helmet.

[Temennigru]

First off, no way you're getting your Str up that high, on a Kobold, as well as five feat prereqs, by level 11. But let's pretend you could - here's how.

In Draconomicon, the section on Dragon Feats, under the "Epic Feats" heading, says the following:

Some people take this to mean that a Dragonwrought Kobold, which is a Dragon (although not necessarily a True Dragon, that's a different dispute entirely) that has reached "at least old age" can choose these feats. The language "also" could be read to mean that epic feats can be taken by an Old Dragon, even if he is not of epic levels. In theory, a Kobold who is old or older could, under such an interpretation, qualify for epic feats.

Such an interpretation would result in books being thrown at you. Wear a helmet.

Most of these feats can be gotten using fighter bonus feats.

There has to be a way....
I want free vorpal weapons!

[Eloel]

There has to be a way....
I want free vorpal weapons!

"Free" as in you'll tie in your race, class, bunch of feats and others?

Go Kensai?

[Temennigru]

"Free" as in you'll tie in your race, class, bunch of feats and others?

Go Kensai?

Everything I touch turns vorpal sounds more satisfying.

[Eloel]

Everything I touch turns vorpal sounds more satisfying.

Devastating Critical only works for a specific weapon type like Greatsword or Greataxe.

[Temennigru]

Devastating Critical only works for a specific weapon type like Greatsword or Greataxe.

Every (insert weapon type here) I touch*

[Red Fel]

Every (insert weapon type here) I touch*

So, take Warblade and use your Weapon Aptitude to switch your feats on a regular basis. It's not instantaneous, but it switches to whatever weapon you feel like mauling with that day.

[Temennigru]

So, take Warblade and use your Weapon Aptitude to switch your feats on a regular basis. It's not instantaneous, but it switches to whatever weapon you feel like mauling with that day.

Still, I don't see that feat as being OP. I would have to give up 2 levels and waste a whole bunch of feats to even qualify for it, and even so creatures that are immune to death effects such as bosses would not die to it. I think taking this at lvl 11 is pretty reasonable. I will talk this over with the DM and see what he thinks.

[sideswipe]

dragonwrought desert kobold with Mind Over Body feat and a con of 18. who gets the festering anger disease.

will qualify for the feat after a few days. since your trying cheese to get epic feats early then this is on the table for sure. easy

[Deox]

Arguably, the Martial Monk variant (Dragon 310) will allow you to qualify for fighter epic feats.

This method, too, may warrant a helmet to protect against thrown books.

[atemu1234]

First off, no way you're getting your Str up that high, on a Kobold, as well as five feat prereqs, by level 11. But let's pretend you could - here's how.

In Draconomicon, the section on Dragon Feats, under the "Epic Feats" heading, says the following:

Some people take this to mean that a Dragonwrought Kobold, which is a Dragon (although not necessarily a True Dragon, that's a different dispute entirely) that has reached "at least old age" can choose these feats. The language "also" could be read to mean that epic feats can be taken by an Old Dragon, even if he is not of epic levels. In theory, a Kobold who is old or older could, under such an interpretation, qualify for epic feats.

Such an interpretation would result in books being thrown at you. Wear a helmet.

Don't spend the night, either, or else you'll have to deal with the other players reenacting a certain scene from Full Metal Jacket.

[Temennigru]

Arguably, the Martial Monk variant (Dragon 310) will allow you to qualify for fighter epic feats.

This method, too, may warrant a helmet to protect against thrown books.


How so? It doesn't seem to mention epic feats.

[Eloel]

How so? It doesn't seem to mention epic feats.

Monks gain feats without checking prerequisites. Fighter epic progression has the feat as a Fighter feat.

[WhamBamSam]

Monks gain feats without checking prerequisites. Fighter epic progression has the feat as a Fighter feat.I don't buy this. The Epic Fighter bonus feat list is a distinct thing from the Fighter bonus feat list. To wit: they're [Epic Fighter Bonus Feat]s, not [Epic] [Fighter Bonus Feat]s.

I do buy (and allow) most kobold cheese however. It is very difficult to get your Str that high on a mid-level kobold without something like sideswipe's Festering Anger suggestion though.

[Eloel]

I don't buy this. The Epic Fighter bonus feat list is a distinct thing from the Fighter bonus feat list. To wit: they're [Epic Fighter Bonus Feat]s, not [Epic] [Fighter Bonus Feat]s.

I do buy (and allow) most kobold cheese however. It is very difficult to get your Str that high on a mid-level kobold without something like sideswipe's Festering Anger suggestion though.

I agree. But that's the reasoning used.

I'm still not too sure on what happens when you take Improved TWF without TWF (or similar) with that Monk variant either, so, eh.

Also, kobold cheese. Epic Toughness on level 1 is very strong.

[WhamBamSam]

Also, kobold cheese. Epic Toughness on level 1 is very strong.Well, level 3 without flaws, but yeah. Epic Toughness is one of the things I ban. I also ban Loredrake, the standard version of Wyrm of War, Dragon Psychoses*, the Xorvintaal template, and houserule the alternate arcane spell options from other Sovereign Archetypes to only apply to Sorcerer casting. I leave dragonblood auto-qualification alone (as the worst abuse, out of order RSLs, doesn't work anyway), allow the vast majority of Epic feats for kobold use, and let players take the other Sovereign Archetypes with that restriction.

*Nameless, Wandering, and Ravening have softer bans. There are some circumstances where you might be allowed to get away with them.

[Rebel7284]

If LA buyoff is allowed, you can get rid of two LA before level 11.

Earth Kobold (SRD) has the stats of -2 Str, -2 Con.
Half Minotaur (Dragon Magazine #313 p94) gives +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int and a size increase. +1LA
Half Ogre (Dragon Magazine #313 p95) gives +4st, -2 Int, -2 Cha and a size increase. +1LA

Both templates ALSO say to apply the changes from Monster Manual when a creature changes size. This is frankly broken and unnecessary, but if your DM OKs it, you also get +12 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con.

Regardless, you end up with a large Kobold that can count as medium whenever is convenient and enough Strength for all the feats.

Dragon Magazine #310 p45 has Martial Monk which RAW ignores prerequisites for fighter bonus feats.

Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 1/Martial Monk 2/Marshal 1

Feats:
1. Dragonwraught
1. (Fighter) Power Attack
2. (Fighter) Weapon Focus
3. Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
3. (PW) Cleave
4. (Monk) Great Cleave
5. (Monk) Improved Critical
6. Overwhelming Critical
6. (Marshal) Devastating Critical

Of course you can wait and get these feats later. :)

Also, Flaws would speed this up significantly.

Edit:
The more conservative version that assumes no martial monk, no flaws, and no level adjustment buyoff can still get it all at ECL 11 and has pounce too!

LA+2/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/Marshal 1
1. Dragonwraught
3. Power Attack
3. (Fighter) Cleave
4. (Fighter) Weapon Focus
6. Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
6. (Fighter) Great Cleave
8. (Fighter) Improved Critical
9. Overwhelming Critical
9. (Marshal) Devastating Critical

[sideswipe]

I'm still not too sure on what happens when you take Improved TWF without TWF (or similar) with that Monk variant either, so, eh.



TWF takes away penalties for two weapon fighting.

ITWF gives a second attack at a -5 penalty to your normal offhand attack.

so you would still take the -4 on hand and -8 offhand attacks (-10 if not light), but you would gain the second attack at a -5 penalty again for your off hand totalling -13(-15) on this second attack.