Boss Fights(3.5)

[sambouchah]

So I've been feeling like my boss fights dont take near long enough. My players are T1-T2 and know how to use it, so I make bosses to adjust and they still over power them with ease. I've added SR, Spell Immunity, Ability Damage Immunity, CL, constant Haste, and plenty more and they still break them down. So I've decided I'm going to give my bosses tons of HP, plenty of Resistances, and a special attack. Like in FF, Chaos has 20,000 HP. I've never hears of a dnd character(short of Punpun) who has HPs that high up. I know HP isn't the best defense, but I think that it could help the fight last longer.

Any thoughts on how to make it work? I know I can talk to my players and ask them to tone it Down, but I allowed them to play these T1s and T2s in order to test both of our skill. I dont want to have to tell them to stop because then I'd feel like a failure, I will if I can't make my encounters engaging.

Thanks, All!
-Sam

[Glimbur]

One of the simplest things to do is to add more critters to the boss fight. Maybe it's a huge golem and you have to beat each of its limbs. Maybe it's the mega-demi-lich (a demi lich is a single bone, there are ~206 bones in the human body, the mega-demi-lich is a skeleton made of demi liches). It could be a rival team of adventurers and/or devils.

Then you still have to make them dangerous, and I suspect other answers in this thread will be helpful. Recall that Hail of Stone from spell compendium does untyped SR:no damage.

[sambouchah]

I like the idea of having multipart boss fights(each limb has X HP)! I forgot about Carry Armor from FF.

[pwcsponson]

Throw in effects they may have the ability to prepare for, but never did.
Intense magical weather effects; I'm sure "gusty" on the plane of wind isn't the same as "gusty" on the material plane. Throw in spatial shenanigans like something out of MC Escher's drawings, so friendly fire might be a thing if they're not careful in remember what area goes where. Get into the heads of the players. Think not just meta, but meta-meta.

My friend made a dungeon where a hallway was blocked by the most evil-aligned monster you could ever face. It was so powerful it didn't even feel the slightest bit threatened by the PCs, so instead just gave the PC's a quest to get him some drugs from a nearby room and he'd move. Doing a quest for an Evil Outsider of that nature naturally causes the Paladin to fall and turns everyone evil.

Alternatively - have them challenge a god like Tiamat or something.

[Vrock_Summoner]

My friend made a dungeon where a hallway was blocked by the most evil-aligned monster you could ever face. It was so powerful it didn't even feel the slightest bit threatened by the PCs, so instead just gave the PC's a quest to get him some drugs from a nearby room and he'd move. Doing a quest for an Evil Outsider of that nature naturally causes the Paladin to fall and turns everyone evil.

Is this a joke? Please tell me this is a joke. I'm not sure whether to :smalleek: or :smallbiggrin: so instead I'm just :smallconfused:

Paladin fall only happens by the most anal reading of the Code, and "grabbing something for a guy that doesn't help him harm anyone or cause anyone any harm so that you can avoid dying pointlessly while still achieving your (presumably Good) goal" shouldn't shift you away from Good even the slightest amount.

[sambouchah]

How would a multi limbed monster work? Would each body part have separate HP and you must destroy all parts to win, or is it easily done by killing the head?

[pwcsponson]

Is this a joke? Please tell me this is a joke. I'm not sure whether to :smalleek: or :smallbiggrin: so instead I'm just :smallconfused:

Paladin fall only happens by the most anal reading of the Code, and "grabbing something for a guy that doesn't help him harm anyone or cause anyone any harm so that you can avoid dying pointlessly while still achieving your (presumably Good) goal" shouldn't shift you away from Good even the slightest amount.

It was the dungeon of the Party God or something. You don't know what the demon was gonna use those drugs for, and it's clearly evil. At best the demon partakes in the drugs and that's it, at worst it uses the drugs to corrupt a bunch of innocents. But even at best you helped an insanely evil outsider, as a paladin no less. And as mentioned the thing was only blocking the hallway, not even interested in killing them. The solution the paladin ended up taking was convincing the other party members not to get the drugs, and to find another way around.

RAW, a paladin can't even stomach an evil dude in his party, even if the party is out to do good. That's not even rules lawyering or nothin'. It just says that. Forget doing at-best-neutral quests for evil outsiders. Of course there are other paladin archetypes out there, but still.

Edit: The party did enter a room with a table and chair. No baddies. Upon detect evil, the first round revealed the presence of an evil aura. Turns out it was the chair that was evil. So the Paladin smashed it. Party god sure knew how to screw with people.

[Blackhawk748]

RAW, a paladin can't even stomach an evil dude in his party, even if the party is out to do good. That's not even rules lawyering or nothin'. It just says that. Forget doing at-best-neutral quests for evil outsiders. Of course there are other paladin archetypes out there, but still.

And this is the precise reason you dont RAW the Code of Conduct, it tries to be to many things at once and fails miserably at all of them. Thus why i encourage people to write their own code.

Now enough of the Paladin discussion. As for a multi-limb monster i would say treat each limb as its own monster with its own physical stats, hell give each one its own initiative. Killing it is a matter of getting to its head, have fun doing that with a nest of tentacles on its back.

[sambouchah]

So the head takes no damage until it's limbs are destroyed?

[Blackhawk748]

So the head takes no damage until it's limbs are destroyed?

No thats to Fiat-y. You just make it hard to get to the head, think of Shadow of the Colossus or any other games with a really big boss to fight. Usually you only get to stab it in the weak point a few times before your thrown off.

[sambouchah]

I forgot about that game! That's a good idea. Is there a size category above colossal anywhere?

[nedz]

Why run Boss fights anyway ?
They are hard to do, as you are finding, since there is only one target of consequence and the party win either on action economy or their variety of special attacks designed to find any weakness (assuming that they haven't found that out by research/divination already)

Instead use better, and more, mooks with their 'boss' only being a few levels higher than them.

Or have the boss no-show, or escape early in the fight.

Or run the game with the party facing evil organisations rather than evil overlords.

[gooddragon1]

How would a multi limbed monster work? Would each body part have separate HP and you must destroy all parts to win, or is it easily done by killing the head?

Well, the Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) sort of does this, though it is hideously under CR'd in my opinion.

I would say that you could make it so that the fight becomes slightly easier with each limb they remove, but they could kill it by attacking the main body. Have each limb grant an attack that's effective against a different type of character (even ones not in their party). That way they can prioritize against limbs that are effective against them and perhaps ignore or treat as secondary targets the other ones (particularly if each limb loss grants some additional penalty beyond loss of an attack form). Just an idea.

Limbs could also be separate entities with their own initiative.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, the Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) sort of does this, though it is hideously under CR'd in my opinion.

I would say that you could make it so that the fight becomes slightly easier with each limb they remove, but they could kill it by attacking the main body. Have each limb grant an attack that's effective against a different type of character (even ones not in their party). That way they can prioritize against limbs that are effective against them and perhaps ignore or treat as secondary targets the other ones (particularly if each limb loss grants some additional penalty beyond loss of an attack form). Just an idea.

Limbs could also be separate entities with their own initiative.

Seconding this. As for Hydras i call them "Boss Monsters" and the CR 5 one is appropriate as a boss for a lvl 5 party. Is this correct? Nope. This is the product of experience.

[Brendanicus]

Your party consists of high-level T1's?

What are you waiting for? Go completely insane for your boss fights! Have planar rifts explode everywhere, or make he fight in the middle of a giant flock of dragons or something.

[Illven]

Maybe it's the mega-demi-lich (a demi lich is a single bone, there are ~206 bones in the human body, the mega-demi-lich is a skeleton made of demi liches).

That sounds awesome.

Only difference is that it's all the bones in the human hand are one demi lich, but....

[endur]

Boss Fights aren't dependent on Tier 1 or Tier 2 characters versus tier 4 or 5. The real issue is what levels are you using, what game books are you using, what optional materials, etc.

A boss for level 1 characters is very different from a boss for level 20 characters. And if you add in the splat books, it makes it very different from a core only game (PHB, MM, DMG).

[sambouchah]

Boss Fights aren't dependent on Tier 1 or Tier 2 characters versus tier 4 or 5. The real issue is what levels are you using, what game books are you using, what optional materials, etc.

A boss for level 1 characters is very different from a boss for level 20 characters. And if you add in the splat books, it makes it very different from a core only game (PHB, MM, DMG).

Pretty much anything is open. No one is using Psionics, only a few feats from complete series. The level currently is. five. My party consists of a Druid(casts defensive buffs on his pet and they maul face together), a Cleric going for Mystic Theurge(suboptimal I know, but currently playing as a T1 Cloistered Cleric), a Warforged Archivist, a Spellthief with Spellfire(he picked it), a Dread Necromancer, and the newest player is playing a sorcerer.(I know not all of them are T1-2 but most are)

[Aegis013]

Instead of dragging out the fights, why not embrace the rocket tag situation in both a meta and in-game way?

Bosses don't just keel over and die. When they die, instead you trigger Contingent Revivify, and pop back up. Give them the same kind of optimized death dealing capability the players have.

Your players are charging enemies for 1,000 damage? Have the enemy shoot a Twinned Chained Empowered Searing Orb of Fire for bajillions of damage to PCs. Maybe even make it a Craft Contigent Spell so they don't have to burn an action on it.

Your players, being high level tier 1 classes, and apparently reasonably capable, will quickly adapt as the insanity ensues. Eventually, you can have events like characters dying and returning to life several times in a single round. It can get pretty crazy if you pursue this path, but it will definitely test and improve your skill.

[endur]

Pretty much anything is open. No one is using Psionics, only a few feats from complete series. The level currently is. five. My party consists of a Druid(casts defensive buffs on his pet and they maul face together), a Cleric going for Mystic Theurge(suboptimal I know, but currently playing as a T1 Cloistered Cleric), a Warforged Archivist, a Spellthief with Spellfire(he picked it), a Dread Necromancer, and the newest player is playing a sorcerer.(I know not all of them are T1-2 but most are)

So a level 5 party, including sorcerer, Dread Necromancer, Cloistered Cleric, Warforged Archivist, Spellthief with spellfire, and Druid.

So the first question is what CR/EL are you making them face? 6 level 5 PCs is the equivalent of 4 level 6 PCs (from a CR/EL perspective, although the 6 PCs will be more effective than 4 6th level PCs in reality). I would normally have a 5th level party with 6 PCs face CR 8/9 encounters, with bosses being CR 10 encounters.

Also that's a lot of spellcasters. Anti-magic, golems, etc. could really ruin their day.

[Dysart]

So I've been feeling like my boss fights dont take near long enough. My players are T1-T2 and know how to use it, so I make bosses to adjust and they still over power them with ease. I've added SR, Spell Immunity, Ability Damage Immunity, CL, constant Haste, and plenty more and they still break them down. So I've decided I'm going to give my bosses tons of HP, plenty of Resistances, and a special attack. Like in FF, Chaos has 20,000 HP. I've never hears of a dnd character(short of Punpun) who has HPs that high up. I know HP isn't the best defense, but I think that it could help the fight last longer.

Any thoughts on how to make it work? I know I can talk to my players and ask them to tone it Down, but I allowed them to play these T1s and T2s in order to test both of our skill. I dont want to have to tell them to stop because then I'd feel like a failure, I will if I can't make my encounters engaging.

Thanks, All!
-Sam

My suggestion is probably similar to alot of the others. Make the boss fight less about 1 target (like in FF) and make it about tactically engaging them.
Most 'bosses' don't hang around on their own, they have body guards and such.

For instance you could have their quest be to stop a Drow leading a black market and rogues guild in a major city. When they go to confront him he's in a room behind a desk with his feet up. They engage and the walls drop, revealing 8 different drow that haven't been mentioned in the slightest before and the guy behind the desk is an illusion/hologram and he's safely away in a different place all together.
If they're so good at taking on defences that you've constructed before, try challenging them by testing their action usage. If the opponents have twice as many actions it'll probably be a very tough fight.


Extra HP is a waste of time, it'll just make the monster last longer, but likely won't matter against "Save or Die" type spells.

[atemu1234]

So I've been feeling like my boss fights dont take near long enough. My players are T1-T2 and know how to use it, so I make bosses to adjust and they still over power them with ease. I've added SR, Spell Immunity, Ability Damage Immunity, CL, constant Haste, and plenty more and they still break them down. So I've decided I'm going to give my bosses tons of HP, plenty of Resistances, and a special attack. Like in FF, Chaos has 20,000 HP. I've never hears of a dnd character(short of Punpun) who has HPs that high up. I know HP isn't the best defense, but I think that it could help the fight last longer.

Any thoughts on how to make it work? I know I can talk to my players and ask them to tone it Down, but I allowed them to play these T1s and T2s in order to test both of our skill. I dont want to have to tell them to stop because then I'd feel like a failure, I will if I can't make my encounters engaging.

Thanks, All!
-Sam

Throw Pun-Pun at them?

[gooddragon1]

Throw Pun-Pun at them?

Maybe one step below that: Beholder Mage :D

[Inevitability]

I forgot about that game! That's a good idea. Is there a size category above colossal anywhere?

There's Colossal+, but the only monsters that use it I can think off are some Epic Dragons, and you don't want to fight those.

The (also epic-leveled) Genius Loci can theoretically be of any size. You could have one the size of a mountain.

[daremetoidareyo]

It sounds like you are caught in a match of rocket tag. The way to approach this is to turn up your roleplaying expectations of yourself. Do you know what really drives each of these individual characters? Is there anything that they disagree on? (besides wealth distribution to whom)

You are going to get the most sparks by making antagonists that only piss off half of the party's characters. Maybe your BBEG used to be bad, but atoned years ago and is now doing something that seems evil, but is actually mostly good, like housing a dissaffected mindflayer and feeding it prisoner brains. Maybe the illithid holds the secret to something in the undermountain, or maybe he is a spy.

The other problem is that your problem resolution is coming from combat, not actual problem resolution. Just because a cop uses deadly force doesn't mean that criminal behavior is over. The truly good have to get at the source of the behavior to save the lives. Right and Wrong are difficult concepts in a universe where you are surrounded by a bunch of self-interested powers, up to, and definitely including deities.



Example: The nations of the world are racing to collect as much of a newly discovered resource as possible. Said resource is capable of fueling a eldritch atomic bomb. Good nations want it for defense. Evil nations want it for offense. The best and brightest of those nations don't want the resource to go away, but they want it to go to themselves. Some of the higher level powers amongst those good nations are actually evil power seekers. Some of those best and brightest amongst the enemy are actually chaotic ur-priest radicals who want to destroy this material entirely so that no-one has it or can use it to make dieties any stronger. Your PC paladin/cleric's diety wants the material for their worshippers. Now what do the PCs do? Can they agree on a course of action? Can they get others to agree on the same course of action?

Then, put time constraints on this. The princess has been kidnapped and as a reward, a really desired item is offered (Razzle M'ttazzle's spare spellbook ooor Shmexcalibur). This quest conflicts with the other quest, and seems like it really can't be done alone, but it does arm the PCs with a potentially useful tool. Embarking on it the powerful tool quest means country x y and z have more powerful bombs. That BBEG that ran away four adventures back has figured out a way to get revenge also, and plans on mucking up the PCs by spraying them with phase livingspell pheromones. (mixnmatch phasespider and living spell (i suggest heightened grim revenge)).

Once optimized, Dnd is less about the dice and more about the choices and solutions that the PCs make and take. PCs are never happier than when they look like john mcclain at the end of diehard. They won, but they have glass in their feet, their face is bashed in, and they didn't have total control of the situation. If combat can't rough them up like it used to, then traps, races, and limited time resources have to fill in the gap.

For combat with Big Bads: Why not gestalt them. If the challenge aint up there, the game loses its risk. It works well for monsters to be picking up psywar feats.

[atemu1234]

There's Colossal+, but the only monsters that use it I can think off are some Epic Dragons, and you don't want to fight those.

The (also epic-leveled) Genius Loci can theoretically be of any size. You could have one the size of a mountain.

Advanced Great Wyrm Time Dragon, then?

[sambouchah]

A little Campaign background;
PCs are slaves in a mine under a city referred to as the Elegance of Delor(a city build by a con man on what used to be goblin territory). The prince of another kingdom attempts to free the slaves(being a higher up in a freedom fighters guild) and dies in the process. Delor, upon finding out it was the prince, begins to prepare their army to seige the main city(Greyhale). Greyhale is built on a cliff above the sea(into the face).

Delor's armada is very powerful, their army is fearsome, and they are angry. Greyhale has a force of flying units(Pegasus Riders from Fire Emblem: Awakening), and a moderate sized navy, but are nothing compared to Delor. So the players have been trying to find people to help, they had a month before Delor would march, and a month for Delor to March there. Currently Delor is at the Gates of Greyhale(the cliff above the city) and mercilessly slaughtering both Greyhale soldeiers and a nearby group of goblin clans that the PCs convinced to help in the fight.

They're traveling to a city where magic is very common with many arcane libraries to try and gain their help as well, but they were too late and Greyhale is falling.

They've made it halfway there and have been teleported to the elemental plane of earth by the Elemental Lords to see what's wrong with them(Necromentals everywhere) and that'll take up more of their time. They decided that the wealth gained from the Elementals will be well worth the time spent and are letting the kingdom fall for money(everyone but dread necro is good aligned and they obey everything he says, so there's that).

[Naez]

Pull a Dark Link. Have them fight themselves.