Maths Help: Ring of wishes 5/day

[EastbySoutheast]

I've recently been looking at costing for creating magical items but I've begun to get a little confused including material costs/xp costs into a use per day item.

The question is:
What's the maths for creating a ring of 5 wish/day?
What's the cost to buy it?
Is there a cheaper way to do it?
Can it be done pre epic?

Thanks Playground

[T.G. Oskar]

By RAW? Spell level x caster level x 1800 (for command word)/2000 (for use-activated or continuous) + 25,000 gp (5 gp per 1 xp, and Wish has a minimum cost of 5,000 xp). Wish is a 9th level spell, with minimum caster level of 17th, and it's usually a command word so (9 x 17 x 1800) + 25,000 gp = 300,400 gp. That's the cost of having a command-word item duplicating a 9th level spell, and since it has 5 charges, that is divided by 1, so the result is the same.

However, practically? It's a major artifact, no less and no more. What it offers is the most powerful spell in the entire game, without an XP cost, and rechargeable daily. Even with the DM making all wishes backfire, it's way too broken. No sane DM would allow it a cost of 300,400 gp at all.

Look at its comparison, the Ring of Three Wishes. The cost of one is 97,950 gp, and that's for an item with only 3 charges, period. What you're offering is something that is infinitely more valuable for roughly three times the cost, and an item that essentially pays itself, since you can use one of the daily uses of Wish to create a non-magical item every day, and you'd recuperate the costs in about 25 days (get an item that costs 25,000 gp, sell it for half; by 25 uses, you recover the cost and get a bonus). Again: notice why it's broken?

In fact, as a major artifact, it's still broken.

Now...as an exercise for making magic items? Well, a 9th level spell at its base level costs about 275,400 gp to make, unless the spell has an XP cost. Three spells in Eberron reduce magic costs: Extraordinary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan and Legendary Artisan; each feat reduces one of the three costs (gold, XP and time) by a quarter, and that's the easiest way. There's also another feat called Mercantile Background (I believe), which also works to reduce the monetary cost. The cost alone makes it an Epic item; reducing that to a quarter of the cost would shave around 70,000 gp, which would still make it keep Epic-level costs, and even if you could reduce it to under 200,000 gp (the limit for Epic magic items), it'd still be an Epic item because it's only determined by its base cost. That is, unless you reduce the charges per day, since that reduces the total cost by around 20%. That is, of course, for 9th level spell that doesn't have an expensive material cost OR XP, and that isn't Wish.

In short: a Ring of Rechargeable Wishes is a major artifact, so the question is academic. However, a Ring of Meteor Swarms usable 5/day (or any other similar 9th level spell save for Gate, Shapechange, Wish, Miracle, True Resurrection, or any one that I might be missing, and I'd dare say any 9th level spell, period) would be an Epic item costing over a quarter of a million gp.

P.S.: Did I mention a Ring of Rechargeable Wishes has no cost, because it's a friggin' major artifact, and thus shouldn't ever be crafted by a PC?

[holywhippet]

Ok, I think what you need to use is a use-activated item as per this page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm which is spell level X caster level X 2000. In this case that is 9 X 17 X 2000 = 306000. Since it is limited times per day there is a division to apply, but because it is 5 per day the division is 1.

The experience cost is the problem. Technically for each casting of a spell with an experience cost you have to pay for the experience when the item is created. For a wish it is 5000 XP per casting. But you are making an item with effectively unlimited castings so the experience cost extra is 5000 X infinity. As such, I don't think a 5 per day wish item is possible under the rules.

[Dysart]

Also if you're playing with Eberron books there's the feats for Artificers which can reduce the cost dramatically.

And, if you made an artificer you'd be able to make the spell at a lower level/lower caster level and lower cost/time due to that.

[Mr Adventurer]

I thought you paid 50x the cost of any components for unlimited use items?

So they'd be 5000 XP × 5 GP × 50. plus that 300-odd K.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, that actual link you posted says as much: components are 50× if it has uses per day and 100× if its use is unlimited. So there is still a cost break for 5/day over unlimited.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's an epic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm):
"Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items."

At 3/day as a command word item it would be 165,240 gp for its market price, before the xp cost is considered, putting it below the automatically-epic price.

However, a nonepic character would never be able to create that. The xp cost at x50 for daily uses would be an additional 1,250,000 gp added to its price tag when purchasing it, or an additional 250,000 xp added to the cost of creating it. Note that this is more xp than even a 21st level character would have, and you cannot spend so much xp that you would put you below the minimum for your current level. To gain a level, you need to gain (current level) x 1,000 xp, so a character would need to be around level 250 to be able to spend that much xp at once.

[Crake]

Well considering that any item has market value of over 200,000gp is an epic item (and thus has a cost multiplier of x10, making it cost even more) this item would not be craftable pre-epic. Note that this is the market cost before xp and material components are taken into account (so the 1,250,000gp extra cost for the 5000xp component does not count toward the 200,000gp epic item calculation, though it's still expensiiive)

If you're looking to use this to get +5 inherent bonuses across the board (which it feels like due to the interest in 5/day) then this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267642-Inherent-bonuses-Save-500-000-gp) thread might be of use to you

Additionally you can get silly with energy drain, ice assassins, dweomer keepers and incantatrix. As a quick lo-down, you energy drain yourself to 1, keep a bunch of restoration potions on hand, then re-level yourself up as a dweomerkeeper, use your Su ability to wish for a scroll of ice assassin, make yourself an ice assassin of yourself (ordering it not to kill you of course, personally, me as a DM, I allow it to just be used as a beefed up simulacrum with no kill command, at the caster's discretion, but that's up to your DM), repeat with an incantatrix version of yourself. If your DM says you can't wish for a scroll of ice assassin, just make one and spend the 10,000xp, it's worth it, the monetary component can easily be covered by dweomerkeeper's wish, ignoring xp costs.

You now have two ice assassins, one which can cast wish as an Su ability, costing no xp, 4/day. Not quite the 5/day you want, but that's where the incantatrix comes in. Have it apply repeat spell to your wishes, and now you suddenly have 8 wishes a day instead of 4. You can also use the incantatrix to do things like persist your buffs (shapechange and bite of the werebear are a pretty sweet combination, also divine power if you access it via arcane disciple)


[URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm"]However, a nonepic character would never be able to create that. The xp cost at x50 for daily uses would be an additional 1,250,000 gp added to its price tag when purchasing it, or an additional 250,000 xp added to the cost of creating it. Note that this is more xp than even a 21st level character would have, and you cannot spend so much xp that you would put you below the minimum for your current level. To gain a level, you need to gain (current level) x 1,000 xp, so a character would need to be around level 250 to be able to spend that much xp at once.

That is ignoring the use of things like liquid pain or ambrosia for xp expenditure

[Bronk]

Also, Midgard Dwarves are able to make any magic item, no exceptions, so that would get around that.

However, I agree that this 5/day wish ring would be crazy to price. Aside from all of the things it could do that have already been mentioned, it could duplicate the effects of a +5 tome or manual once per day. Every six days another person could have +5 to all of their stats!

[Mr Adventurer]

As a use-activated ring it would be pretty cool - whatever you wanted would just happen, within the limits of Wish. It would be like having a cut-rate version of the Alter Reality salient divine ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well considering that any item has market value of over 200,000gp is an epic item (and thus has a cost multiplier of x10, making it cost even more) this item would not be craftable pre-epic. Note that this is the market cost before xp and material components are taken into account (so the 1,250,000gp extra cost for the 5000xp component does not count toward the 200,000gp epic item calculation, though it's still expensiiive)

Not exactly. Epic effects are at x10 cost, but not all epic items get that treatment. If the caster level is 21st or higher it's at x10, for example, but a non-epic effect is at its normal price even if it's included on an epic item. It will still require Forge Epic Ring if the market price is above 200k gp.

[FocusWolf413]

I think you would get a DMG and the MIC thrown at you. Stop trying to break the game. Don't be That Guy.

[atemu1234]

I thought you paid 50x the cost of any components for unlimited use items?

So they'd be 5000 XP × 5 GP × 50. plus that 300-odd K.

1,250,000 gp.

[EastbySoutheast]

I think you would get a DMG and the MIC thrown at you. Stop trying to break the game. Don't be That Guy.

Don't worry I'm not trying to break the game, I'm just interested to see if it can be done mechanics wise. But because it can doesn't mean it should?
It also gives scales on what would seem over priced or what wouldn't when looking through the MIC if that makes sense?

[T.G. Oskar]

Ok, I think what you need to use is a use-activated item as per this page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm which is spell level X caster level X 2000. In this case that is 9 X 17 X 2000 = 306000. Since it is limited times per day there is a division to apply, but because it is 5 per day the division is 1.

Why use-activated instead of a command word? It makes sense, regardless of price.

The example use-activated item, the lantern of revealing, doesn't require a command word to activate but grants its effect whenever the item is activated instead (i.e. when the lantern is turned on). Likewise, you can see this with weapons (an explicit use-activated item, but having its own costs) or potions (same thing as weapons) - you don't use a command word (or spend a specific action of activating the item, other than making an attack roll which involves using the weapon or a standard action for purposes of guzzling a potion), you simply use the item as it'd be intended and gain the benefit.

A Ring that duplicates a spell is an unusual form of activation, as it's expected that the item provides its utility while worn (a continuous effect) or perhaps by removing something from the ring (like, say, a necklace of fireballs). Thus, you could create it via command word, which would be cheaper and it'd make sense (you speak the word, which may be the actual wish itself, and gain the benefit). Defaulting to use-activated would make some of the magic items in both the DMG and the MIC more expensive than they should be (i.e. the Holy Avenger, because of its at-will Greater Magic Weapon effect, and the Eternal Wand, which is based on the cost of a command-word item for a 2/day limit of uses, plus material costs).

Good catch on the added XP cost, though. That bit can be confusing, since it relegates the cost for permanent charges to small lettering. So, for a 9th level spell with a 5,000 xp component, the main cost would be that of a use-activated item, plus 1,250,000 gp for the XP component.

Regarding the MIC: while some of the items use the DMG price, others play fast and loose. Look at any of the items that have variable effects based on the number of charges used: attempting to apply the pricing guidelines to those items will end up with a huge disparity. Some of the items had their cost modified, since their effect is more powerful than you'd think: take for example the famous "Ring of at-will True Strike", which by RAW should be around 1,800 ~ 2,000 gp (for using the spell , but obviously that makes it way too cheap for its effect, so the typical recommendation is to raise the price by 10x the base cost, or find an alternative to its cost based on its properties (typically the squared bonus times 1,000 ~ 2,000 gp, since it grants a +20 insight bonus to a single attack roll, so somewhere between 400,000 and 800,000 gp). It requires DM adjudication for some of the strongest effects, so don't expect an item to cost cheap because part of the rules tell that, when other rules should be used instead.