Taking hostages knife-on-the-throat-style effectively?

[Dr TPK]

I'm talking about this:
http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-ward-knife-to-the-throat.jpg

I'm thinking that one of the PCs could end up fighting a BBEG alone, and in case of defeat, the BBEG could present the PC as shown in the picture to the rest of the PCs. "Give me X or he dies!"

The thing is that even with a critical hit, a dagger would do insignificant amount of damage. If the BBEG were to beat the PC until his HPs would be low enough for the dagger to make a difference, the chances are that the PC would just accidentally die in the process.

How to make the situation presented in the picture threatening for mid-level PCs? The PCs levels range from 6 to 9 and all have loads of HP and very high fort saves.

[Ephemeral_Being]

You should consider them "helpless," and count the dagger attack as a Coup de Grace. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Helpless_Defenders)

If they have a good Fortitude save, they can survive it.

[Dysart]

My question is if the BBEG can grab a PC on his own and seperate him from the rest of the group?

If so then it's less about "if it can kill" and more about "can they survive".

Although I don't know of any rules for this, if you Coup-De-Grace a throat and they make the fort save to survive... well they have a gaping hole in their throat and they're going to bleed out.
That makes it a race against time for the 'healing' to be applied to the PC.

It's an option, at the end of the day as GM you can make rules up as you go as long as they're fair enough and make sense for the PCs.
Generally this is a tactic they won't be able to repeat so the rules won't need to be perfect (mainly because any PC who tries this is likely to do enough damage to instantly kill any NPC they try it on).

Alternatively, if you really really need some sort of rule system.
Vorpal, make it a Vorpal Kukri. A Coup-De-Grace with a Vorpal weapon decapitates them.

[Crake]

My question is if the BBEG can grab a PC on his own and seperate him from the rest of the group?

If so then it's less about "if it can kill" and more about "can they survive".

Although I don't know of any rules for this, if you Coup-De-Grace a throat and they make the fort save to survive... well they have a gaping hole in their throat and they're going to bleed out.
That makes it a race against time for the 'healing' to be applied to the PC.

It's an option, at the end of the day as GM you can make rules up as you go as long as they're fair enough and make sense for the PCs.
Generally this is a tactic they won't be able to repeat so the rules won't need to be perfect (mainly because any PC who tries this is likely to do enough damage to instantly kill any NPC they try it on).

Alternatively, if you really really need some sort of rule system.
Vorpal, make it a Vorpal Kukri. A Coup-De-Grace with a Vorpal weapon decapitates them.

Note that vorpal only triggers on the roll of a natural 20, so a kukri is really unnecessary for the increased crit range. Additionally, for the same reason a vorpal coup de grace would not trigger the vorpal ability because you don't roll, thus cannot get a natural 20

A more deadly combination would be vorpal when combined with surge of fortune (as an immediate action discharge effect you can choose to treat a attack [or ability check/skill check etc] as a natural 20) and some bonuses to crit confirm chance (power critical, warblade into to crit confirms etcetc)

[Necromancy]

Back on topic...

Bad guy is a rogue sneak type level 9

1d4 dagger and 4d6 sneak on coup de grace with no str mod

Average 16 damage, causing a 26DC fort save. If your players can make that too easily, increase the level and stop giving them so much magic

[Dysart]

Note that vorpal only triggers on the roll of a natural 20, so a kukri is really unnecessary for the increased crit range. Additionally, for the same reason a vorpal coup de grace would not trigger the vorpal ability because you don't roll, thus cannot get a natural 20

A more deadly combination would be vorpal when combined with surge of fortune (as an immediate action discharge effect you can choose to treat a attack [or ability check/skill check etc] as a natural 20) and some bonuses to crit confirm chance (power critical, warblade into to crit confirms etcetc)

I said Kukri because it's almost dagger size.

[Necromancy]

If they do survive, tack on some healthy bleed damage for realism as they hold their gushing neck and wait for healing

[Dysart]

If they do survive, tack on some healthy bleed damage for realism as they hold their gushing neck and wait for healing

Also choking, all that blood will definitely cause choking. Make them bleed for X amount and make them roll for suffocation/drowning as their lungs fill up with blood....wow that's dark.

[Amphetryon]

If they do survive, tack on some healthy bleed damage for realism as they hold their gushing neck and wait for healing

"Realism". . . "healthy bleed damage". . . 3.X, right? The game with the Elves and the Wish spells and the ability to fly four hours at a time unaided, without wings? Realism?

[DeltaEmil]

@Rai_skari: If a player character fights the BBEG alone and loses, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the player character being at negative hp, as long as the player character has been stabilized (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery) by the BBEG and is now disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled).

[Maglubiyet]

This is the problem with D&D and level systems in general. Presumably, in a "realistic" style game even the most accomplished warrior in the world would be incapacitated in seconds by a jab to the carotid artery with a scalpel.

But when you start adding HD every level, even a scrawny mage can take a full-on hack from a three-foot blade of razor sharp steel wielded by a 7' muscle-bound orc a couple of times before even wincing.

[Nibbens]

In the PF module Rise of the Runelords, this is pulled off quite effectively via a Haunt. Lemme find it real quick.

Suicide Compulsion
CE insane haunt (5-ft.-radius spread around desk)
Caster Level 5th
Notice Perception DC 20 (to notice the appearance of a dagger on the desk that, an instant before, was not there)
hp 10; Trigger proximity; Reset 1 day
Effect The haunted character must make a DC 15 Will save. Failure indicates he moves over to the desk and attempts a coup de grace action on himself with the jagged length of wood, dealing 2d4 (plus twice his Strength modifier) points of damage to himself. He must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the damage dealt) to avoid being slain by this suicide attempt. If anyone triesto prevent the attempt, the haunted character instead makes a single attack against that person with the “dagger.” If he hits, the supernaturally guided strike automatically scores a critical hit and delivers 2d4 points of damage plus twice the haunted character’s Strength modifier—in addition, this hit causes 1d4 points of bleed damage. After this attack, the “dagger” turns back into wood.

Okay, I know there are a ton of differences between 3 and PF. And I know there's a lot different between a suicide attempt and someone else slitting a throat. However, this can be used for inspiration.

Other's have said turn the attack into a coup de grace. I'd say do that AND do double the damage and double the str modifier, because reasons! lol.

[Flickerdart]

I recall the following sentence being somewhere in the books, in regards to modeling weapon damage - "a dagger to the eye is a dagger to the eye." Hit points might not be the most appropriate thing to use here.

Also, don't forget about the Massive Damage rules - anyone who eats a CdG and passes the save (and then manages to survive the damage) probably just took over 50 damage, triggering a DC15 Fort save to stay alive.

[Elder_Basilisk]

RAW, the scenario is a little challenging to pull off:

CDG is a full round action
A character can only ready a standard action

A target must be helpless for a CDG to be possible.

Therefore, the bad guy could say, "hand it over or the girl gets it" but cannot actually ready an action to CDG the girl if the PCs take hostile action.

On the other hand, if the target is unconscious or at very low hit points, any credible physical combatant is perfectly capable of taking them to -10 (3.x) or -Con (Pathfinder) with a regular hit--especially if he has sneak attack. As discussed before, 1d4+4d6=16.5 average damage which is enough to take a character from 6.5 to -10hp >50% of the time and enough to reliably kill nearly any character who is already at 0 HP or lower. Anyone who can't reliably do that can probably cast a spell such as death knell, shocking grasp, inflict moderate wounds, or slay living that will be similarly effective. (Note that the spellcaster actually has better options than the martial in this case since he can ready spells which have a better chance of killing less disabled foes or which will kill masses of victims at range. "Do what I want or I fireball those peasants" is an easier threat to carry through on in normal gameplay).

And I would suggest that you stick with the RAW on this one for the following reasons:

1. It is narratively appropriate. Yes, the "Do what I want or the girl gets it" trope is common in fiction. On the other hand, it is not universally effective in fiction. There are a lot of solutions to the problem
A. The hero does what the villain wants
B. The hero stops for a second, then the girl elbows the villain, head buts him, or otherwise escapes/distracts the villain long enough for the hero to tackle or shoot the villain.
C. The hero doesn't blink and just shoots the villain through the eye before the villain has a chance to react. (That was one of my favorite Renegade options in Mass Effect II; it was also a great moment in Dredd).

What the various responses to the trope emphasize is that it doesn't and shouldn't work if the victim is not actually helpless. That is one of the meta reasons why the "victim elbows/otherwise disables the villain" response is now very common. The "do what I want or the girl gets it" trope capitalized on the presumed helplessness of the girl and disabling the villain demonstrates that she is, in fact, empowered, and not helpless. In the D&D/Pathfinder rules, actual helplessness is important and rightly so. If the putative victim is not helpless, then the DM owes it to their player to allow them to subvert the trope. (Note that a dramatic difference in capabilities such as lvl 1 commoner vs lvl 9 villain or "stunned fighter with 1 hp vs villain" is close enough to helpless for the rules to enable the gambit to work and that is how it should be as well).

2. You probably don't want the dagger to the throat to be a viable combat tactic that can be used in lieu of actually defeating foes. If the victim in the scenario is not actually helpless or effectively so in game terms, then your players may ask how the villain is able to put the dagger to his throat. If the answer is as simple as, for example, "start a grapple+draw a dagger," then you can count on players using grapple+draw dagger+slit throat against their foes every time it's easier than actually beating through their hit points or saving throws. Maybe that's the kind of game you want to play, but that seems to edge out the things that I think are supposed to happen in a swords and sorcery story: sword fights, lightning bolts, and more standard mayhem, occasionally punctuated by rolling around in the mud with fists and daggers only when disarmed or after losing primary weapons in the required fall off the edge of a building.

[Mystral]

Hit points are an abstract game concept, which is meaningless in such a situation. If a Barbarian sits down and let's himself get stabbed in the heart with a spear, he doesn't take 1d8+x damage, he dies. Because he has a hole in the heart. This kills people.

HP demonstrate a characters ability to mitigate damage, dodge attacks and draw on his fighting spirit, as well as physical fortitude. None of this stops a hole in the heart from killing you.

Either go the coup the grace route, or just have it be a killing attack. If you want to give the party opportunity to save the guy, have it kill in 1d4+1 rounds, or something like that, unless a healing spell is slapped on.

[Flickerdart]

Therefore, the bad guy could say, "hand it over or the girl gets it" but cannot actually ready an action to CDG the girl if the PCs take hostile action.
It doesn't matter, if the PCs think that he can slit her throat if they make the wrong move. :smallamused:

[TheIronGolem]

It doesn't matter, if the PCs think that he can slit her throat if they make the wrong move. :smallamused:

Also, I think there is a feat that lets you perform a CDG as a standard action. The OP can always grant this feat to the BBEG if he wants to stick to RAW.

[charcoalninja]

Well if the PC in question is stabalized at 0 hp so he can walk around then the dagger even without any mods is still a credible threat as the stab will drop them to below 0 and therefore dying.

PCs are heroic so them being really hard to kill is the intent of the system. A PC in that situation isn't the helpless hostage, he's Jackie chan that immobilizes the hand and kicks the guy in the face over his shoulder, or throws him, or ducks at an appropriate time for his friends to blast the guy through the forehead.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It doesn't matter, if the PCs think that he can slit her throat if they make the wrong move. :smallamused:

The other reason that it doesn't matter is, if the victim in question is either the sort of person who you would expect to be unable to resist effectively (low level commoner/NPC class or severely injured higher level/PC class), a regular readied action attack is also rather likely to kill her--no special rules required. And if the victim isn't that kind of person, then it shouldn't work to begin with.

[Bronk]

PCs are heroic so them being really hard to kill is the intent of the system. A PC in that situation isn't the helpless hostage, he's Jackie chan that immobilizes the hand and kicks the guy in the face over his shoulder, or throws him, or ducks at an appropriate time for his friends to blast the guy through the forehead.

I agree with this, and I think this would be one good reason to only use this trick on NPCs.

Used on an NPC, you can a) make everything work out how you want without revealing all the gory rule details, b) go completely cinematic if you want, and c) don't make your players unhappy by removing their sense of agency.

[Jeraa]

I recall the following sentence being somewhere in the books, in regards to modeling weapon damage - "a dagger to the eye is a dagger to the eye." Hit points might not be the most appropriate thing to use here.

Also, don't forget about the Massive Damage rules - anyone who eats a CdG and passes the save (and then manages to survive the damage) probably just took over 50 damage, triggering a DC15 Fort save to stay alive.

A coup de grace that triggers the Massive Damage rules already has a CdG save DC of at least 60 (10+damage dealt). The DC15 Massive Damage save is easily beatable by anyone who managed the DC60+ CdG save. Unless they only passed that one because of a natural 20.

[Flickerdart]

A coup de grace that triggers the Massive Damage rules already has a CdG save DC of at least 60 (10+damage dealt). The DC15 Massive Damage save is easily beatable by anyone who managed the DC60+ CdG save. Unless they only passed that one because of a natural 20.
Yeah, it's pretty much either a Nat-20 counter or fishing for Nat-1s against creatures that pass the first save.