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Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 04:19 PM
So I had an idea after reading Etherscope today. They present a PC race (Alpha Humans) that start with an Experience Penalty of 1000 xp. Thinking to myself, "why not just give them LA+1?" I realized that being 1000 xp behind is much much different than being a level behind.

It means that when you're hitting level 2, everyone else is halfway to 3. However it also means that when your compatriots are hitting level 17, you're only 1000 xp away from following right along.

So basically what converting LA to an equivalent XP penalty would do would be to make you less powerful at game start, but would also make you more equivalent to other characters down the road. It'd also prevent the possiblity of loss of caster levels or class features.

A Thri-Kreen, for instance, would start with an XP penalty of -3000, in addition to his two Racial HD. This'd mean he's equivalent to a second level character, but needs an extra 3000 xp to hit level 3. It penalizes in the short term, but in the long term would mean that he wasn't that far behind his companions.

Comments?

NullAshton
2007-04-11, 04:37 PM
Isn't that what LA buyoff does?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 04:39 PM
Not quite. LA buyoff basically makes it so you have to gain levels at the indicated levels twice, and you still have the LA in the meantime. This would give you one solid block of negative XP that you'd have to buy off prior to gaining any class levels.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 04:39 PM
Depends a lot on if you're starting from level 1, or building higher-level characters. Although I guess the theory is that at level 17 or so, the abilities that you get for the penalty won't really be worth much anymore. That's certainly true of most LA+1 bonuses.

So yeah, I like it. It might also be worthwhile to take a closer look at scaling this to higher LAs.

PirateMonk
2007-04-11, 04:40 PM
So, minus 1000 XP for each +1 LA? :smallconfused:

LotharBot
2007-04-11, 04:45 PM
If you're lower level than the rest of your party, you gain XP faster, provided your DM is handing out XP according to RAW. So if you start someone with, say, -3000 XP... unless you make it some sort of permanent negative XP (so they're always at whatever base - 3000 penalty) they'll gain it back quickly.

The point of LA and the current LA buyback system is that you pay for those advantages by being lower level, but as they get to be less valuable at higher levels, the penalty decreases and eventually disappears. Giving a block of negative XP doesn't balance out nearly as well.

Hunter Noventa
2007-04-11, 04:45 PM
It certainl seems simpler and easier than the current LA buyoff system. My group had a close encounter with that last nnight and it wasn't pleasant, so the new player in question ended up doing something else.

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 04:51 PM
I would strongly suggest that it scale more with higher LA, since there are quite a few races (oddly, thri-keen is one) that have abilities which are still very useful towards the endgame, and thus warrant a bit higher modifier. Either following the level progression, with the LA taking an amount of experience the same as the equivalent level, or the LA squared times 1000.

Of course, the game breaks down fairly easily when you have anything that has an LA greater than +5, so it's going to have to require constant vigilance on the part of the DM regardless.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 04:53 PM
So, minus 1000 XP for each +1 LA? :smallconfused:

Not quite. It'd be -1000 XP for LA +1, -3000 XP for LA +2. Essentially, you'd receive a negative amount equal to the amount needed to acquire a level equal to the LA.


If you're lower level than the rest of your party, you gain XP faster, provided your DM is handing out XP according to RAW. So if you start someone with, say, -3000 XP... unless you make it some sort of permanent negative XP (so they're always at whatever base - 3000 penalty) they'll gain it back quickly.

The point of LA and the current LA buyback system is that you pay for those advantages by being lower level, but as they get to be less valuable at higher levels, the penalty decreases and eventually disappears. Giving a block of negative XP doesn't balance out nearly as well.

In this case, you'd actually gain XP at an increased rate, yes, but you have to get a hell of a lot more of it to equal other characters.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 04:55 PM
Of course, the game breaks down fairly easily when you have anything that has an LA greater than +5, so it's going to have to require constant vigilance on the part of the DM regardless.

Well, yes. For instance, the Vampire template would give you -25,000 XP or somesuch, and you'd start as a L1 character, which'd make you far more powerful than other L1 characters. So yes, this system would work best with LA +1/2/3, maybe +4. Any higher, and I'd recommend against it.

Perhaps using it in conjunction with my "half of LA, rounded down, becomes RHD" houserule would help too.

Fhaolan
2007-04-11, 05:00 PM
Very interesting idea. It does appear to make sense.

If you have a high LA race though, it does mean being stuck at 1st level for a relatively long time.

Indon
2007-04-11, 05:02 PM
The point of LA and the current LA buyback system is that you pay for those advantages by being lower level, but as they get to be less valuable at higher levels, the penalty decreases and eventually disappears. Giving a block of negative XP doesn't balance out nearly as well.

I'm not so sure about that. LA buyoff works well for some low-LA creatures, but for anything LA 3 and over, it does little to mitigate the heavy penalty.

Let's dig out one of my favored examples of a high-LA, the Troll. A Troll has 6 HD and +5 LA; hefty prices for their fabled regeneration ability. With level adjustment buyoff, at ECL 21 they can become LA +4.

Now let's say instead we do it Fax's way. LA +5 is (1+2+3+4+5) x 1000 XP; 15,000 XP penalty. The 6 Troll HD gives us 21,000 base XP, 28,000 to the next level (first class level, that is). Our 15,000 XP penalty puts us at 6,000 XP, with 22,000 XP needed to gain the first class level.

On the one hand, you could eventually reach higher class levels... on the other, you spend a WHOLE LOT OF TIME at either zero or 1 class levels (whichever way you wanna run it) trying to rack up the 20,000+XP you need to overcome your racial adjustment.

Eh, neither system honestly appeals to me overmuch...

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 05:13 PM
The main difference is that my way allows a Troll to be played in an ECL 6 game, while LA requires it to be at least ECL 11.

Jasdoif
2007-04-11, 05:17 PM
Instead of a negative balance...what if all XP gain were halved until you had class levels equal to your LA? It still takes twice as much XP, but at least you're making progress.

It also eliminates some pesky questions about how racial HD fit into the system, since those HD do affect the amount of XP a character has.

Indon
2007-04-11, 05:22 PM
The main difference is that my way allows a Troll to be played in an ECL 6 game, while LA requires it to be at least ECL 11.

Quite, or ECL 8 if you apply half the LA towards starting ECL, to keep high-LA and low-HD characters from being problematic.

So I guess it is better than standard LA buyoff in that respect.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 05:23 PM
Instead of a negative balance...what if all XP gain were halved until you had class levels equal to your LA? It still takes twice as much XP, but at least you're making progress.

It also eliminates some pesky questions about how racial HD fit into the system, since those HD do affect the amount of XP a character has.

That might work, but I'm not sure on the finer points of it. How would an LA +1, no RHD work in that case (like an Aasimar)?

Indon
2007-04-11, 05:27 PM
That might work, but I'm not sure on the finer points of it. How would an LA +1, no RHD work in that case (like an Aasimar)?

Your first thousand XP gain would be halved; so it'd take 2,000 xp to gain your first thousand.

In the case of the troll, it means (effectively) 14,000 xp to ECL 7 (for the first 7,000 of the penalty), and then 16,000 xp to ECL 8 (for the remaining 8,000 of the penalty) and then normal XP gain. The problem of spending forever at a single level is mitigated, at the cost of more number crunching.

Edit: Oh, wait, that's not at all what the system Jasdoif outlined. Oh, well. Consider it my attempt at a compromise?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 05:29 PM
Your first thousand XP gain would be halved; so it'd take 2,000 xp to gain your first thousand.

In the case of the troll, it means (effectively) 14,000 xp to ECL 7 (for the first 7,000 of the penalty), and then 16,000 xp to ECL 8 (for the remaining 8,000 of the penalty) and then normal XP gain. The problem of spending forever at a single level is mitigated, at the cost of more number crunching.

I meant "What if I wanted to play an Aasimar in an ECL 1 game"?

Jasdoif
2007-04-11, 05:32 PM
That might work, but I'm not sure on the finer points of it. How would an LA +1, no RHD work in that case (like an Aasimar)?OK, let me see here....

Under the negative balance system, a first-level Aasimar would have -1000XP. Upon attaining 2000XP, the Aasimar would have 1000XP, and thus be level 2.

In order for the half gain system to match...the Aasimar would have to have 2000XP halved, which equates to a 1000XP gain, and thus be level 2.


So in the case of a no RHD race, it would need to halve XP until they were at LA+1 levels. I guess it's more general to say that it's levels gained through XP (since a no-RHD race gets their first level for free) that count for when the halving stops, not simply class levels.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 05:36 PM
OK, let me see here....

Under the negative balance system, a first-level Aasimar would have -1000XP. Upon attaining 2000XP, the Aasimar would have 1000XP, and thus be level 2.

In order for the half gain system to match...the Aasimar would have to have 2000XP halved, which equates to a 1000XP gain, and thus be level 2.


So in the case of a no RHD race, it would need to halve XP until they were at LA+1 levels. I guess it's more general to say that it's levels gained through XP (since a no-RHD race gets their first level for free) that count for when the halving stops, not simply class levels.

Seems feasible, albeit a bit complex.

Indon
2007-04-11, 05:38 PM
OK, let me see here....

Under the negative balance system, a first-level Aasimar would have -1000XP. Upon attaining 2000XP, the Aasimar would have 1000XP, and thus be level 2.

In order for the half gain system to match...the Aasimar would have to have 2000XP halved, which equates to a 1000XP gain, and thus be level 2.


So in the case of a no RHD race, it would need to halve XP until they were at LA+1 levels. I guess it's more general to say that it's levels gained through XP (since a no-RHD race gets their first level for free) that count for when the halving stops, not simply class levels.

Okay, so in _this_ system, the Troll gets penalized 45,000 XP total; starting at 21,000 XP (ECL 6) and needing to reach ECL 11 at 66,000 XP. Hmm.

So I'm thinking, do what I accidentally did a few posts ago; halve XP gain for an amount of XP equal to the LA penalty; 1,000 for LA 1, 3,000 for LA 2, etc. It works for LA, no RHD creatures, and LA+RHD creatures aren't all that bad off.

Diggorian
2007-04-11, 05:41 PM
Given players with college degrees having difficulty remembering and adding all their buff mods, I'd opt for the savage species progression truth be told.

I also like the character developement aspect of a young troll coming of age. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-04-11, 05:44 PM
Given players with college degrees having difficulty remembering and adding all their buff mods, I'd opt for the savage species progression truth be told.


I'm also a big fan of the savage species progressions, but LA is still often a larger handicap than the abilities granted with that LA make up for, which is the reason for LA buyoff, and this system.

With savage species progression, every time they hit another LA level, their XP gain would be slowed/stopped/whathaveyou until they bought it off. At least, that's how I'd do it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-11, 05:52 PM
The main difference is that my way allows a Troll to be played in an ECL 6 game, while LA requires it to be at least ECL 11.
But wouldn't you say a straight troll does remain more powerful than an ECL character should be?

It sounds a lot like the XP penalty system 2e used, but with a one-time penalty instead of a penalty to XP as it is earned. The problem with such a "buy now, pay later" scheme is that the powerful races wind up at their best when they are most unbalancing. This troll outshines the entire party at level six, and that is supposed to be acceptable because he's (theoretically) balanced at level 20? I don't think so.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-11, 05:56 PM
A +10% experience increase per +1 ECL also works as a nice compromise without LA buy down.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-11, 05:57 PM
The problem with such a "buy now, pay later" scheme is that the powerful races wind up at their best when they are most unbalancing. This troll outshines the entire party at level six, and that is supposed to be acceptable because he's (theoretically) balanced at level 20? I don't think so.

Hey it works for the fighter, right? ;) /sarcasm

Ok, so it doesn't work for the fighter either, but that doesn't change the fact that its an old arguement that rears its head on occasion.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 05:58 PM
But wouldn't you say a straight troll does remain more powerful than an ECL character should be?

It sounds a lot like the XP penalty system 2e used, but with a one-time penalty instead of a penalty to XP as it is earned. The problem with such a "buy now, pay later" scheme is that the powerful races wind up at their best when they are most unbalancing. This troll outshines the entire party at level six, and that is supposed to be acceptable because he's (theoretically) balanced at level 20? I don't think so.

So how would you suggest doing it then?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-11, 06:37 PM
I think level adjustement, flaws and all, is the best option. Maybe certain creatures should have their adjustments tweaked. And buyback should probably be tweaked as well. Make it easier.

Still, it's like the old saw about Democaracy: It's a terrible system, but it's the best there is.

Jasdoif
2007-04-12, 01:18 AM
I like the racial class setup that's in Complete Psionic. Some levels you get class levels, others you get racial HD, some you just pay for part of the LA. The class and racial HD are intersparsed, too, so you end up picking up class abilities along the way instead of being forced to only take a bunch of racial HD until you've "paid off" the LA.

But from a design view, it's a pain to pace out racial abilities throughout the progression for ability-heavy races while maintaining a sense of balance. An easy, plugin-type method for mitigating LA over the course of a game (like the ones suggested here) would be very nice to have.

Grr
2007-04-12, 01:33 AM
Racial Levels work better than any other system to allow monsters to be played as PC's. Personally, I just don't allow it. The trouble that character is going to face in every town/village/city they go to isn't worth the headache.

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-12, 04:29 AM
If you're lower level than the rest of your party, you gain XP faster, provided your DM is handing out XP according to RAW. So if you start someone with, say, -3000 XP... unless you make it some sort of permanent negative XP (so they're always at whatever base - 3000 penalty) they'll gain it back quickly.

The point of LA and the current LA buyback system is that you pay for those advantages by being lower level, but as they get to be less valuable at higher levels, the penalty decreases and eventually disappears. Giving a block of negative XP doesn't balance out nearly as well.

One thing to keep in mind is that the amount of experience required to level up is your current level x 1000 + the experience you already had from previous levels.

For instance:

A 1st level character reaches exactly 1000 xp and levels up. Now that he's level 2, he needs 2000+ more experience to reach level 3. So a 3rd level character needs at least 3,000 xp.

1,000 current xp
+ 2,000 required xp = 3,000 xp

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-12, 07:29 AM
Racial Levels work better than any other system to allow monsters to be played as PC's. Personally, I just don't allow it. The trouble that character is going to face in every town/village/city they go to isn't worth the headache.Who says they have to face trouble at all? That's rather campaign dependent.

Especially given the high number of creatures that can manage to pass for human with minimal effort.

But, even then, who's to say the people of a particular campaign world haven't struck some sort of truce and been living peacefully with their beholder neighbors for the past 150 years?

Indon
2007-04-12, 09:02 AM
So I'm thinking, this system could be used best in conjunction with racial levels, simply supplanting LA buyoff rather than LA altogether.

So I'm thinking:

-Creatures start out at an effective ECL equal to their RHD+LA, as normal; XP buyoff only affects future progression.
-After initial levels, LA no longer counts for ECL. Instead, the creature is penalized XP equal to the amount of XP to reach their level worth of LA (from zero); so 1,000 XP penalty for LA 1, 3,000 for LA 2, 6,000 for LA 3, 10,000 for LA 4, etc.
-Until they've paid off their XP penalty, they gain XP at half rate (Maybe? I'm not so sure on this one)
-Levels lower than standard ECL are done with racial levels. Progress at racial levels where LA increases imposes an XP penalty equal to (Total LA levels*1000) XP, so the first LA level is 1,000, second is an additional 2,000, etc.


Now, this has high LA creatures not starting out too far ahead, and since they have a lower ECL for gaining XP, they can catch up over time, meaning that even with the XP penalty, the gap steadily closes as party levels increase, at the same time that LA abilities grow less powerful in comparison to class levels.

Thoughts on this composite proposal?