Fist and claw: a monk problem

[Llewelyn]

I'm currently working on a monk idea, involving the monk having a claw/claw/bite secondary routine. Now this is going to be a Living Greyhawk character so I'm other under restrictions as well, and a lot of combats we only get a half-round to prepare before engaging... a round and a half if we're lucky, so I can't spend a lot of time getting spells from the party spellcasters.

So, given all that, is there an easy way to enable both my unarmed strikes and my natural weapons to piece DR? a buff spell that will enhance them both at once? Some sort of item for the same effect, or some items that can boost them individually?

[Clementx]

Greater Magic Fang can give all your natural weapons (and a monk's unarmed strike) a +1 enhancement instead of granting one specific one a scaling bonus.

[Zincorium]

Amulet of mighty fist enhances all natural weapons, which your monk's fists automatically are, and it has an advantage over magic fang in that it can give you a bonus greater than +1 without multiple castings.

[Llewelyn]

Is Amulet of Mighty Fist in any book besides Sword and Fist? I think that was one of the books that got merged into Complete Warrior...

[Indon]

I'm pretty sure it's in the DMG as a wondrous item.

[Krellen]

And if you have a claw/claw/bite on top of monk attacks, the price of the amulet of mighty fists is actually worth it. And it's core now (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) (and does indeed appear in the 3.5 DMG.)

[Llewelyn]

Just checked the LGCS and you're right, it lists it as an open item from the DMG, so thanks on that account. :) Is there any easy way to bypass silver or cold iron DRs too, apart from being warforged with the right feat(which is obviously out) or kamas/monk weapons?

[Indon]

Well, if you possess a damage reduction, your natural attacks can bypass it; so for instance if you were for some reason a Monk/Warlock, and gained DR/cold iron, your attacks could penetrate DR as if they were cold iron weapons.

Other than that... I can't think of anything offhand.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You can use gauntlets made from/with special materials, although monks are not proficient so attacks are made at a -4, which may or may not be worth it.

[Indon]

You can use gauntlets made from/with special materials, although monks are not proficient so attacks are made at a -4, which may or may not be worth it.

But you could use a feat for proficiency if you were so inclined, yes?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Certainly, it does cost a claw attack though, so the OP might not consider it a viable solution, but for all the clawless core monks that are up against DR and want to enchant their fists this is probably the cheapest way to go.

[ken-do-nim]

Well, if you possess a damage reduction, your natural attacks can bypass it; so for instance if you were for some reason a Monk/Warlock, and gained DR/cold iron, your attacks could penetrate DR as if they were cold iron weapons.

Other than that... I can't think of anything offhand.

Incorrect. Only magic damage reduction works like that. Two iron golems fighting each other would subtract 15 pts per hit because neither is made of adamantine (nor are their weapons).

[Indon]

Incorrect. Only magic damage reduction works like that. Two iron golems fighting each other would subtract 15 pts per hit because neither is made of adamantine (nor are their weapons).

Ah, indeed, what I thought applied to all DR does indeed only apply to magic (and its' epic equivalent) DR.

Though, apparently if you pick up an alignment subtype, you can pierce DR of that alignment.

[levi]

I belive that having a claw/claw/bite attack routine dosn't stack with monk unarmed attacks. I belive that the claws are used in the monk routine and you only get the bite as an additional attack.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You do not have to use your fists to make Unarmed Strikes. You can use other appendages you may have, like your legs for instance.

[Llewelyn]

Yep, as long as the claws and bite are both being listed as usable as a secondary attack(and they will be for this character)... you can even flurry too and use the secondary natural attacks. Like: kick/knee/elbow/claw/claw/bite, if you have +6 BAB.

On the gauntlet issue, gauntlets aren't special monk weapons, so that (clawless) monk wouldn't be able to flurry using it, I believe, which is a downside compared to using somethign like a kama. I don't think you'd get the actual monk unarmed strike damage either since gauntlets have a seperate damage amount listed from fist.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Attacks with gauntlets are treated as Unarmed Strikes (except for the lethal damage), so you can flurry just fine with gauntlets and use your special monk Unarmed Strike damage.

[Person_Man]

You could use the Decisive Strike Flurry Variant from the PHBII.

You could also take Touch of Golden Ice from the Book of Exhalted Deeds. For every natural attack (including unarmed attacks), your enemies must Save or take Dex damage. Sadly the Save DC never increases, but if you get enough attacks, the law of large numbers will kick in.

[Llewelyn]

Attacks with gauntlets are treated as Unarmed Strikes (except for the lethal damage), so you can flurry just fine with gauntlets and use your special monk Unarmed Strike damage.

I could have sworn I saw otherwise in the D&D 3.5 FAQ yesterday. Then again it might have been the Living Greyhawk forums where I saw that mentioned when I was browsing for ideas...

Also with the char being Living Greyhawk, while that Touch of Golden Ice sounds interesting, I'd have to run a special mission to get access to it. I don't even know if the Variant rules from PHB2 are allowed, though both are neat ideas for non-LG games

[jjpickar]

On the bypassing of DR, the Planar Handbook has a substitution level for the monk that allows him to bypass DR as if his unarmed strikes were cold iron. t replaces the Adamantine DR bypass though.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I could have sworn I saw otherwise in the D&D 3.5 FAQ yesterday. Then again it might have been the Living Greyhawk forums where I saw that mentioned when I was browsing for ideas...


You probably did, but the FAQ is directly contradicting itself on the issue.
The entry that does not support gauntleted flurry is disregarding the actual description and looking blindly at the table.
The other entry actually looks at the description of the gauntlet and arrives at the same conclusion as I do.

[ken-do-nim]

Just a reminder that in the Magic Item Compendium, there are gloves you can buy that bypass silver damage reduction. So the only thing that monks have a hard time with (by 16th level) is cold iron.

Also in the Magic Item Compendium is the "scorpion kama" that allows a monk to do his unarmed attack damage through it. It is around 6K.

For the interested, I created house rules to fix these problems:
(a) A monk cannot do unarmed strike damage with a metal gauntlet. When you think about *why* monks do so much damage with their unarmed strikes, you reach the conclusion that it comes from their ki power. Non-living material blocks this ... so I treat gauntlets the same way I do weapons.
(b) Weapons that have the ki focus magical property do allow the ki to flow, so the weapon or gauntlet thus enchanted does unarmed strike damage (in addition to allow stuns & the ability to bypass magic, lawful, and adamantine dr).

You'll get good game design when you have an underlying reason for how things work. :-)

So with my house rules and the magic item compendium, a monk can use one weapon to get through nealry every dr in the game:
1. Monk must be at least 16th
2. Wear those gloves that allow penetration of silver dr
3. Wield a +1 cold-iron forged ki focus holy kama/nunchuks

[Person_Man]

You probably did, but the FAQ is directly contradicting itself on the issue.
The entry that does not support gauntleted flurry is disregarding the actual description and looking blindly at the table.
The other entry actually looks at the description of the gauntlet and arrives at the same conclusion as I do.

The FAQ specifically says that you cannot Flurry with gauntlets. But I'm with Silvanos on this (which is weird, since we almost always disagree) in that the FAQ contradicts itself.

Text beats table. Also, monks are weak, so why not let them use magic weapons like everyone else? But like everything, its a DM call.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Here is the relevant and contradicting entries from page 17 of the FAQ.


Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes?

Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead).
If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk).
...



Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike?

A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple
weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows.

Hopefully the first one will be edited or removed shortly, since it is an example of "text beats table" as Person_Man, whom I agree with since he agrees with me, says.


Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

[ken-do-nim]

Text beats table. Also, monks are weak, so why not let them use magic weapons like everyone else? But like everything, its a DM call.

My problem with the gauntlets is flavor. In martial arts movies, monks use all kinds of weapons (so my ki focus house rule works great) but they never use metal gauntlets. Really, if the only way you allow monks to combine their unarmed strike damage with enchantments is through gauntlets, every monk in the campaign world will now walk around with magic gauntlets. Do you really want to go there?

[Person_Man]

My problem with the gauntlets is flavor. In martial arts movies, monks use all kinds of weapons (so my ki focus house rule works great) but they never use metal gauntlets. Really, if the only way you allow monks to combine their unarmed strike damage with enchantments is through gauntlets, every monk in the campaign world will now walk around with magic gauntlets. Do you really want to go there?

Well, every Fighter in the campaign world that can afford them walks around with a magical sword or other weapon. Why wouldn't every Monk in the campaign world that can afford them walk around with magical gauntlets?

Monks are at a big disadvantage when compared to any other melee class. They lack full BAB, so their To-Hit is lower and they can't fully fuel Power Attack and Leap Attack. And beyond 6th level, they lack any bonus feats and get few offensive abilities. Their AC is low because they can't wear armor. Their hit points are a mediocre. They have insane MAD.

Having fists that deal 2d10+Str+magic damage really isn't very special when a Fighter is dealing 2d6+(1.5*Str)+80+magic damage with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, and its laughable when you consider that even the most vanilla of Wizards are dealing 60d6 with Empowered Disintegrate.

If you have a flavor problem with it, then give Monks magical vestments or belts or headbands or boots or bracers or whatever that add magical properties to their unarmed attacks. Otherwise, you're just nerfing an already weak class.

[ken-do-nim]

If you have a flavor problem with it, then give Monks magical vestments or belts or headbands or boots or bracers or whatever that add magical properties to their unarmed attacks. Otherwise, you're just nerfing an already weak class.

Umm ... perhaps you missed my post where I said that I allow ki focus weapons to deal unarmed strike damage?

[Latronis]

I've always been fond of the stunning headbutt

[Latronis]

ki-focus greatsword 2d6+2d10 damage ?

My world has gnomish knuckledusters for adding to unarmed damage :P

[ken-do-nim]

ki-focus greatsword 2d6+2d10 damage ?

My world has gnomish knuckledusters for adding to unarmed damage :P

Err... ki-focus would only grant unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage if it is higher than it, not in addition to.

So I guess the ultimate vision would be for your level 20 monk:
+5 cold-iron forged kama
* ki focus (+1)
* holy (+2)
* evil outsider bane (+1)
* chaotic outsider bane (+1)

Whacking that poor, poor balor who is the unfortunate target of so many posts on this forum would result in:

base damage: 6d8 (level 20 + improved natural attack unarmed strike + enlarge person)
strength: let's say +8
weapon: +5
holy: +2d6
banes: +4d6 + 4

for average damage of 65 per hit. Of course, it doesn't really matter because that balor is long dead after that bow-wielding fighter ambushed it from 30 feet away and manyshot it to pieces.

[Latronis]

Err... ki-focus would only grant unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage if it is higher than it, not in addition to.

So I guess the ultimate vision would be for your level 20 monk:
+5 cold-iron forged kama
* ki focus (+1)
* holy (+2)
* evil outsider bane (+1)
* chaotic outsider bane (+1)

Whacking that poor, poor balor who is the unfortunate target of so many posts on this forum would result in:

base damage: 6d8 (level 20 + improved natural attack unarmed strike + enlarge person)
strength: let's say +8
weapon: +5
holy: +2d6
banes: +4d6 + 4

for average damage of 65 per hit. Of course, it doesn't really matter because that balor is long dead after that bow-wielding fighter ambushed it from 30 feet away and manyshot it to pieces.

Well that's not too bad then, i wouldn't allow it though :P I do let my players use flurry with kifocus nonmonkspec weapons though.

How do you justify improved natural attack stacking with that though? It's not what i'd call ki-based.

[ken-do-nim]

How do you justify improved natural attack stacking with that though? It's not what i'd call ki-based.

I thought about that. So you have to ask yourself what improving 'unarmed strike' means. You know, with getting improved natural attack on your bite, it could mean that your fangs got bigger. Improved natural attack on your tail, perhaps it got heavier. But unarmed strike, which doesn't even represent a particular physical bodypart? Eh, you could say that taking improved unarmed strike means you are improving your ki energy's damage output. Why not?

The way I figure it, if I make a small tweak to an underpowered class like monk that actually makes someone say, "I wouldn't allow it", then I must be doing something right. :smallcool: