Cantrips based on weapon damage.

[bloodshed343]

Basically a cantrip the makes a melee spell attack and does weapon damage + effect.

Problem: if you use a greatsword, this becomes 4d6 at level 5, and so on.

Is there a way I can word the cantrip so that you don't roll a ridiculous number of d6s per attack?

Also great axes.

[HoarsHalberd]

Basically a cantrip the makes a melee spell attack and does weapon damage + effect.

Problem: if you use a greatsword, this becomes 4d6 at level 5, and so on.

Is there a way I can word the cantrip so that you don't roll a ridiculous number of d6s per attack?

Also great axes.

Include that it doesn't function with weapons with the heavy quality. Rules out halberds as well but that's fine.

[MrStabby]

Well I think without sorcery points etc. a cantrip is once per turn. This means you cast it and get to make an attack but not an attack action which may limit things?

You may also have to work out how you want it to work with things like multi-attack from druid wildshape etc..

[bloodshed343]

Include that it doesn't function with weapons with the heavy quality. Rules out halberds as well but that's fine.

I want it to work with great swords because it's a good visual, but if this is the way it must be...

What if I limited it to one additional die? This would make great axes more attractive, but we already have a d12 cantrip, so I don't think it would be too bad.

Thinking more, I think this should thematically be limited to finesse weapons. This solves the problem.

Edit 2: Druids get that hard to spell cantrip that buffs a weapon. That's a good model for what I'm doing. I'll have to look up the wording on it.

[Easy_Lee]

I was thinking of something like this. I came up with the idea of a sword beam sort of cantrip.

Bonus action: a blast of magical energy erupts from the tip of a melee weapon you are holding. Make a ranged spell attack against a target you can see within x', treating it as a melee attack from your weapon (for the purpose of weapon enchantments, etc.). For the purpose of this attack, your weapon's damage die is a d4.

Bonus action is chosen so that this cantrip doesn't need to scale and can be used in the same round as a regular attack. D4 is used so as to not edge out polearm mastery as a valid feat choice. Spell attack is chosen so as to prevent this cantrip from being viable on all characters.

[HoarsHalberd]

I want it to work with great swords because it's a good visual, but if this is the way it must be...

What if I limited it to one additional die? This would make great axes more attractive, but we already have a d12 cantrip, so I don't think it would be too bad.

Thinking more, I think this should thematically be limited to finesse weapons. This solves the problem.

You could change it to a rider effect scaling. So you get to do an ephemeral version of the weapon striking in it's wake for 1d4 damage, with a 1d8 at every level up.

[bloodshed343]

Well I think without sorcery points etc. a cantrip is once per turn. This means you cast it and get to make an attack but not an attack action which may limit things?

You may also have to work out how you want it to work with things like multi-attack from druid wildshape etc..

The idea was basically to copy the Swordmage at-wills from 4e, so they'd be their own action, once per turn unless sorcerer, and the damage die of the cantrip would change based on your weapon.

I'm thinking of using Shilleleigh as a model, but instead of increasing damage die, it causes attacks made with the weapon to reduce the targets movement or deal splash damage based on your strength modifier.

Edit: Shilleleigh idea could be OP with extra attack, so, how's this:

Frigid Blade:

Make a melee spell attack with a one-handed weapon that has the light or finesse property. On a hit, deal Frost damage equal to the weapon's damage + your intelligence modifier and the creature's movement speed is reduced to 10'. At 5th level, you deal twice the weapon's damage as Frost damage.

[Submortimer]

This has some potential to be Awesome

Booming Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Thunder damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target must make a con save or be deafened for a number of rounds equal to your spellcasting modifier.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Brilliant Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Radiant damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target must make a Dex save or be blinded for 1 round.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Caustic Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Acid damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and all targets other than you within 5 feet of the target must make a Dex save or take 1d6 Acid Damage.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Frigid Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Frost damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target's movement speed is reduced by 10'

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Molten Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Fire damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target must make a dex save or be caught on fire. The fire burns for 1 point of fire damage each round for a number of rounds equal to your Spellcasting modifier.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Storming Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Lightning damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target cannot take reactions until the start of your next turn. You have advantage on this attack if the target is wearing metal armor.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Wave Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a Ranged spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Force damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.

Withering Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Necrotic damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target cannot heal damage until the start of your next round..

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.


Since it was designed to work with the Swordmage, you could limit the availibility to the Eldritch Knight, and it would give them a highly beneficial alternative to their normal 4 attacks. Assuming a greatsword and max applicable stats, You're talking 6d6+10 (16 - 46) damage at level 17 at most. Compare that to the Warlocks 4d10+20 (24 - 60), and you're not going to be ruining anyone's good time.

Edit: There should be one per damage type now, and alphabetized for your convienence!

[D.U.P.A.]

That would be too strong. Weapon and elemental damage (+ mod) plus some effect at will. 5e characteristics are that attacks are no longer complicated as they were in 4e and it should be toned down. In your case look at paladin. Such effects when striking should be like smites, which are spells, or in case you want extra effect, Paladin has improved smite at 11th level, which does extra radiant damage at each melee attack at will.

[bloodshed343]

-snip-

Solid. Gold. Probably stealing a lot of this.

Anyway, in order to prevent people poaching them with the feat, I made this system:

(Sorry about formatting I'm on my phone)

Infusions: You blend blade and spell perfectly, and have learned to infuse your strikes with arcane energy. You gain 3 Infusions at first level. You learn more as you level up, as shown in the Infusions Known column of the Janissary table. Once per turn, when you take the attack action, you may use one infusion to modify a single attack you make.

Infusion List:

Frigid Blade: The attack's damage type changes to cold and the creature's movement speed is reduced to 10' until the end of its next turn.

Booming Blade: The attack's damage type changes to force and the attack deals 2 extra damage.

Greenflame Blade: Each creature adjacent to the target of the attack takes 2 fire damage.

Flame Vortex: You attack each creature in a 15' cone, and the attack's damage type changes to fire. After using this infusion, you must finish a short rest before using it again.
Lightning Clash: The attack deals 2d6 extra lightning damage. When you use this infusion, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again.

Winged Weapon: Your reach for the attack becomes 60'. When you use this infusion, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again.

Acid Fountain: You attack each creature in a 15' cone and the attack's damage type changes to acid. When you use this infusion, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again.

Sigiled Weapon: You attack each creature within 5' of you. Creatures hit by this attack have disadvantage on attack rolls until the end of your next turn. When you use this infusion, you must finish a long rest before using it again.

Flash Charge: You teleport up to 30' to an unoccupied space within 5' of a creature you can see before making your attack against that creature. Your attack deals 1d6 extra damage. When you use this infusion, you must finish a long rest before using it again.



This was to also model some of the encounter powers. What do you think? Too powerful?

[bloodshed343]

That would be too strong. Weapon and elemental damage (+ mod) plus some effect at will. 5e characteristics are that attacks are no longer complicated as they were in 4e and it should be toned down. In your case look at paladin. Such effects when striking should be like smites, which are spells, or in case you want extra effect, Paladin has improved smite at 11th level, which does extra radiant damage at each melee attack at will.

Why compare these to attacks? It would be better to compare them to cantrips.

[Wartex1]

Because these are weapon-based.

[ChubbyRain]

It is threads like these that really make me want to see 4e officially updated to bounded accuracy and adv/disadvantage system.

The Swordmage was fricken awesome.

[Malifice]

Basically a cantrip the makes a melee spell attack and does weapon damage + effect.

Problem: if you use a greatsword, this becomes 4d6 at level 5, and so on.

Is there a way I can word the cantrip so that you don't roll a ridiculous number of d6s per attack?

Also great axes.

Get it to add a flat d6 to the damage at 5, 11 and 17th level.

A 5d6 + strength damage cantrip isnt broken at 17th level.

[bloodshed343]

Get it to add a flat d6 to the damage at 5, 11 and 17th level.

A 5d6 + strength damage cantrip isnt broken at 17th level.

This could work. I like it.

[Strill]

Because these are weapon-based.

That's just meaningless semantics if they're not actually doing the damage a martial character would actually do.

[Slipperychicken]

-lots of spells-



I'd want to put in one or two for AoEs... but I'd want to make them normal combat maneuvers, not spells or feats, because I don't want to increase feat-bloat or make another caster edition.


Something like:

Action Options
This section provides new action options for combat.
They can be added as a group or individually to
your game.

Ground Pound
You may choose to target your melee weapon attacks at the ground (or other solid surface) directly beneath you. When you do so, that surface quakes violently, potentially damaging nearby enemies. Every other creature on that surface, including allies, within 5 feet of you must immediately make a dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your strength modifier + your proficiency bonus) or take bludgeoning damage equal to half of that attack's damage, rounded down. Creatures which pass this saving throw manage to dodge the quake and do not take any damage. Creatures which cannot jump or otherwise lift themselves off the ground (such as oozes) automatically fail this saving throw. This maneuver cannot be attempted with attacks using finesse weapons, light weapons, nor any attack which adds dexterity to damage.

The area of the ground-pound increases with your level: Once you reach fifth level and every five levels thereafter (5th, 10th, 15th and 20th), you gain the option to extend the radius of your ground-pound by an additional 5 feet. This means a fifth level character may use this maneuver to damage creatures within 10 feet, a tenth level character may use it to damage creatures within 15 feet, and so on.

[Submortimer]

Solid. Gold. Probably stealing a lot of this.


Thanks! They're really a lot like 4e powers, in hindsight.



Anyway, in order to prevent people poaching them with the feat, I made this system:


Remember, the feats specify Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard. Put these on any other spell list, and they can't be poached.



-Snip-
This was to also model some of the encounter powers. What do you think? Too powerful?

Some of that might be too powerful, but like the warlock invocation list, you can level-gate some of that.

[Joe the Rat]

If it's a single shot cantrip, having it as a 1 action cast means, extra attack does not apply. Your action is charge and swing. This does complicate with quickened metamagic, however. Spend a sorcery point to whammy with a weapon cantrip, then go nuts with your regular action (or do it again). An Action Surge's worth of damage up to Sorcerer level times per day. Issues perhaps, but it may not be too over the top.


The Shillelagh model (adding concentration could be a limiter) to switch damage types and add riders to further attacks lets you keep a wicked energy-infused blade for multiple swings, limited by your extra attack ability.

[Submortimer]

That would be too strong. Weapon and elemental damage (+ mod) plus some effect at will. 5e characteristics are that attacks are no longer complicated as they were in 4e and it should be toned down. In your case look at paladin. Such effects when striking should be like smites, which are spells, or in case you want extra effect, Paladin has improved smite at 11th level, which does extra radiant damage at each melee attack at will.

Okay, lets do that.

Blinding Smite
Evocation Spell
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, Up to 1 min

The next time you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, You deal an additional 3d8 radiant damage and the target must make a con save or be blinded for the spell's duration. The creature makes subsequent saving throws at the end of each of it's turns.


Brilliant Blade
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: S/M (the weapon used in the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a melee spell attack using a weapon you are holding; you may use either your spellcasting modifier or your Melee attack modifier for this attack. On a hit, you deal the target Radiant damage equal to your weapon damage + your Spellcasting modifier, and the target must make a Dex save or be blinded for 1 round.

This cantrip deals increasing damage as you increase in level: At 5th, Deal 2x weapon damage; At 11th, add your Str/dex mod to the damage of the spell, based on the weapon used to cast it; at 17th, deal 3x weapon damage.


The paladin get's this at 9th level.

Assuming each person is using a greatsword, with maxed appropriate stats

Paladin with 3rd level spell is doing 2d6+3d8+5, and is blinding for a whole minute.
Other guy is doing 4d6+5, and is blinding for 1 round
By comparison, an evoker with flame bolt is doing 2d10+5, and a warlock is doing 2d10+10 with EB.

Two things about this:
A) I woulnd't expect to see these on a normal Spell list. Either the EK, the Warlock, or perhaps the Homebrew Swordmage that's here on the boards somewhere (look it up, it's really good) Would have these (Except maybe Brilliant Blade. I'd give that to a paladin right away). That would limit some of the cheese.
B) the lion's share of the damage is based off weapon damage. Most spellcasters aren't proficient in martial weapons, which limits the effectiveness of the spell.

Example: With a short sword and maxed appropriate stats, at 17th level this would only deal 3d6+10 damage, less than most other cantrips at that level.

[Submortimer]

If it's a single shot cantrip, having it as a 1 action cast means, extra attack does not apply. Your action is charge and swing. This does complicate with quickened metamagic, however. Spend a sorcery point to whammy with a weapon cantrip, then go nuts with your regular action (or do it again). An Action Surge's worth of damage up to Sorcerer level times per day. Issues perhaps, but it may not be too over the top.

You could do that already by multiclassing with 2 levels of warlock :smallsmile:

[Person_Man]

In general, Cantrip damage is supposed to be lower then weapon damage, because full casters that rely on cantrip damage get more Rest related resources (mainly spells). I would oppose any move to combine them beyond the EK's existing abilities, because it would basically wreck that balance.

[bloodshed343]

Some of that might be too powerful, but like the warlock invocation list, you can level-gate some of that.

Hm, yeah, I can just make a list of at-wills, then add encounter powers at levels 3, 7, and 13. Much like 4e. Daily powers could be represented by spell slots.

Now the only problem is whether or not to make these features or spells/cantrips.

[Submortimer]

In general, Cantrip damage is supposed to be lower then weapon damage, because full casters that rely on cantrip damage get more Rest related resources (mainly spells). I would oppose any move to combine them beyond the EK's existing abilities, because it would basically wreck that balance.

That's true, except when it isnt.

Firebolt is 1d10, EB is 1d10, Shocking Grasp is 1d8, Chill Touch is 1d8 etc.

Now, I get that you don't normally add stat bonuses to this, but both the warlock and the wizard can (and, in fact, do).

Heavy Crossbow at level 5 (assuming 1 extra attack, and crossbow master so they can shoot twice): 2d10+10 (12 -30 damage)
Eldritch Blast at level 5 (with Agonizing Blast): 2d10+10 (12-30 damage)
Evoker Firebolt at level 5: 2d10+5 (7-25 damage)
Frigid Blade at level 5 (With a greatsword): 4d6+5 (9-29 daamge)

if you want to assume some more baseline abilities (no multiclassing, no AB, no feats, no evoker)

At level 5:
Longbow: 2d8 +10 (12 - 26 Damage)
Eldritch Blast: 2d10 (2 - 20 Damage)
Firebolt: 2d10 (2 - 20 Damage)
Frigid blade (With quarterstaff) 2d8 +5 (7- 21 damage)

So, it's a little better than a standard cantrip, but not overpoweringly so. At no time will it outshine a full set of melee attacks.

[bloodshed343]

Using the Infusion system, we can trade the extra attack feature at level 5 for improved infusions, adding one additional weapon die. If we replace the fighting style with infusions, you get a very simple trade-off: versatility for damage. Infusions will do less damage than a martial characters attacks at every level, though it will only be slightly behind at levels 1-4.

Then we can add fighting style prerequisites to the x master feats, such as requiring the great weapon style to get GWM or Polearm Master, and Infusions fall behind further in damage. Plus Infusions play nice with ranged weapon atracks.

Using the cantrip system, the attacks already don't benefit from fighting styles or feats, but they continue to scale past level 5, which might make them strictly better than equivalent cantrips. You also can't translate encounter powers into cantrips unless you make short rest cantrips, which could be cool. If you made cantrips that recharge on a short rest and didn't scale all the way up, this could be the way to go.

Decisions, decisions.

[miburo]

Okay, lets do that.

A) I woulnd't expect to see these on a normal Spell list. Either the EK, the Warlock, or perhaps the Homebrew Swordmage that's here on the boards somewhere (look it up, it's really good) Would have these (Except maybe Brilliant Blade. I'd give that to a paladin right away). That would limit some of the cheese.



You wouldn't happen to be talking about my Homebrew Swordmage class (in my sig) would you? If not then I won't be offended. If so though, I'd love you forever and ever and ever :smallbiggrin:

Either way, I do really like the infusion concept. It was something that was missing from my swordmage class because I couldn't think of a good way to do it correctly. Based on what y'all have been brainstorming, I can think of a couple of ways to make this work for my class now:

- For the Channeling Archetype, instead of a flat +1d8 per level for the Arcane Strike ability, you could lower the damage, say, to 1d6, and add status afflicting riders instead. So it's less like the Paladin Smite and more like the Swordmage abilities.

- Make a 1st level spell which does a similar but toned down thing, so all the archetypes can do some kind of blade power-up.

Here's an example of the latter (the status riders could easily be used for the Arcane Strike ability as well)

Spellblade
1st Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (weapon)
Duration: 1 round

You infuse your weapon with eldritch energy. The next time you hit with a melee weapon attack, you deal additional damage equivalent to your spellcasting modifier and choose one of the following effects:

Booming Blade: Your weapon deals thunder damage and target is deafened for 1 round
Caustic Blade: Your weapon deals acid damage and target is poisoned for 1 round
Frigid Blade: Your weapon deals cold damage and target's speed is reduced to 0 feet for 1 round
Molten Blade: Your weapon deals fire damage and target is blinded for 1 round
Shocking Blade: Your weapon deals lightning damage and target is knocked prone

Dunno which of the two ways makes more sense. Probably leaning more towards the latter for more flexibility.

[bloodshed343]

Miburo! I really like your Swordmage, and it was an inspiration for my rework of the Janissary, which now uses the infusion system as its primary mechanic, but I'm considering turning the Infusions into cantrips/spells.

Anyway, here's how the current infusion system is worded:

Infusions: You blend blade and spell perfectly, and have learned to infuse your strikes with arcane energy. You gain 3 Infusions at first level. You learn more as you level up, as shown in the Infusions Known column of the Janissary table. Once per turn, when you take the attack action to make an attack with a weapon that does not have the heavy or two-handed property, you may use one infusion to modify a single attack you make.

At 5th level, when you use an infusion, you deal one additional weapon die of damage.


Then I have the infusion list with the more powerful Infusions level-gated. There's one at-will infusion for each elemental damage type so you can change up what you're doing on the fly. This also makes the Loremaster archetype's emphasis on knowledge skills more useful, since you can tap those vulnerabilities.

The Infusions also work with a hand crossbow, so you can have an arcane archer type guy.

All in all this thread has been incredibly inspiring. I would like to thank Submortimer for his work and his maths, as well as all the other people who took the time to post.

[bloodshed343]

You wouldn't happen to be talking about my Homebrew Swordmage class (in my sig) would you? If not then I won't be offended. If so though, I'd love you forever and ever and ever :smallbiggrin:

Either way, I do really like the infusion concept. It was something that was missing from my swordmage class because I couldn't think of a good way to do it correctly. Based on what y'all have been brainstorming, I can think of a couple of ways to make this work for my class now:

- For the Channeling Archetype, instead of a flat +1d8 per level for the Arcane Strike ability, you could lower the damage, say, to 1d6, and add status afflicting riders instead. So it's less like the Paladin Smite and more like the Swordmage abilities.

- Make a 1st level spell which does a similar but toned down thing, so all the archetypes can do some kind of blade power-up.

Here's an example of the latter (the status riders could easily be used for the Arcane Strike ability as well)

Spellblade
1st Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (weapon)
Duration: 1 round

You infuse your weapon with eldritch energy. The next time you hit with a melee weapon attack, you deal additional damage equivalent to your spellcasting modifier and choose one of the following effects:

Booming Blade: Your weapon deals thunder damage and target is deafened for 1 round
Caustic Blade: Your weapon deals acid damage and target is poisoned for 1 round
Frigid Blade: Your weapon deals cold damage and target's speed is reduced to 0 feet for 1 round
Molten Blade: Your weapon deals fire damage and target is blinded for 1 round
Shocking Blade: Your weapon deals lightning damage and target is knocked prone

Dunno which of the two ways makes more sense. Probably leaning more towards the latter for more flexibility.

The way your Eldritch Ward is written makes the feature strictly worse than a shield. Perhaps you could replace this feature with infusions and add a "warding blade."

If you did this, though, I'd drop the fighting style, and just add Infusions that mimic the effects of fighting styles.

This way everyone has access to them and can use some effects at-will.

The ability to fight with magic at-will is, to me, what separates the Swordmage from the Paladin.

Edit: the only other thing I would add is making the attacks from the channeling capstone target different creatures. Otherwise, 5 Swordmage 20's can, on average, destroy tiamat in a single surprise round, assuming magic weapons.

[Submortimer]

You wouldn't happen to be talking about my Homebrew Swordmage class (in my sig) would you? If not then I won't be offended. If so though, I'd love you forever and ever and ever :smallbiggrin:


Yep, totally was. Very well designed class, my dm likes it. Only trouble is that these don't fit, since they're Cantrips and the swordmage doesnt get any!

Don't know where I could reasonably fit these in. Maybe expanding the Arcane Attunement ability?

[Submortimer]

The way your Eldritch Ward is written makes the feature strictly worse than a shield. Perhaps you could replace this feature with infusions and add a "warding blade."

If you did this, though, I'd drop the fighting style, and just add Infusions that mimic the effects of fighting styles.

This way everyone has access to them and can use some effects at-will.

The ability to fight with magic at-will is, to me, what separates the Swordmage from the Paladin.

Edit: the only other thing I would add is making the attacks from the channeling capstone target different creatures. Otherwise, 5 Swordmage 20's can, on average, destroy tiamat in a single surprise round, assuming magic weapons.

I don't know that I agree with you that it's STRICTLY worse than a shield. you can't use the shield feats with it, but it's not really any different than having a shield. I'd probably Change that ability out with gaining a few of these cantrips. it just FEELS like something that class should be able to do.

Edit: I might also suggest that my version of the cantrips could be added to the warlock spell list for Blade-locks. It'd give them something fun and unique to do that is both stronger than their weapon on it's own, but weaker than EB.

[miburo]

The way your Eldritch Ward is written makes the feature strictly worse than a shield. Perhaps you could replace this feature with infusions and add a "warding blade."

If you did this, though, I'd drop the fighting style, and just add Infusions that mimic the effects of fighting styles.

This way everyone has access to them and can use some effects at-will.

The ability to fight with magic at-will is, to me, what separates the Swordmage from the Paladin.

Edit: the only other thing I would add is making the attacks from the channeling capstone target different creatures. Otherwise, 5 Swordmage 20's can, on average, destroy tiamat in a single surprise round, assuming magic weapons.

Thanks for the feedback, bloodshed343. I think your Janissary class has a really unique flavor to it.

Well, Eldritch Ward isn't strictly worse than shield, because you still have your hand available. Thus, you don't need War Caster just for the purpose of casting spells to the shield AC; in addition, you don't have to drop your shield to do something like grapple, or pick up an object. You lose the ward and then have to spend an object interaction to get it back, but that is a step above what you would need with a shield. The intent was to provide a way for Swordmages to wield a weapon in one hand and cast with the other (similar to 4E Swordmage), but balance it so that shields were still useful for those who want to spend a feat on War Caster.

I really like your infusions, although as designed I think it fits a lot better with the theme of your Janissary class than it does for my Swordmage, which is more of a general Spellsword-type Fighter/Mage than exactly like the 4E Swordmage. For example, you restrict Infusions to non-light non-heavy weapons (which makes sense), but I couldn't really do that for the Swordmage class. Maybe replace the Arcane Strike ability on the Channeling Archetype with something similar to the infusions? It's admittedly not at-will, but might be easier for the class as it is currently constructed for balancing purposes.

Maybe I should've named it Spellsword or something...

Edit: How is the channeling capstone super-unbalanced? Two attacks + a 5th level spell is a decent nova, but you can't do that more than twice, and how is it anymore damage than 4 level 20 Paladins hitting with their attacks and burning 4th-level smites at the same time? Or 4 valor bards attacking and casting a 9th level spell at the same time?

[miburo]

I don't know that I agree with you that it's STRICTLY worse than a shield. you can't use the shield feats with it, but it's not really any different than having a shield. I'd probably Change that ability out with gaining a few of these cantrips. it just FEELS like something that class should be able to do.

Edit: I might also suggest that my version of the cantrips could be added to the warlock spell list for Blade-locks. It'd give them something fun and unique to do that is both stronger than their weapon on it's own, but weaker than EB.

Posted before I saw this, sorry. See above, Eldritch Ward basically exists so you can gain the AC bonus without actually carrying around a shieldclassic fighter/mage style. Any more benefits and it is probably too powerful.

Definitely would be a cool thing for these cantrips to use on the Bladelock. Pact blade is currently subpar due to better EB which is a little unfortunate.

Still thinking of a way to get the at-will blade abilities to work for my class without unbalancing it. Easiest way I can think of is replacing the "Arcane Strike" ability on the Channeling Archetype, although this does mean only one archetype gets it. Which isn't necessarily bad.

Another way is to make a Spellblade style cantrip, but how to make that balanced? I'm at a bit of a loss on that one. I used to have more of a cantrip list on the class, but it ended up getting removed for balance purposes. Check out the discussion on the WotC forums, it's a pretty long one...

[bloodshed343]

Thanks for the feedback, bloodshed343. I think your Janissary class has a really unique flavor to it.

Well, Eldritch Ward isn't strictly worse than shield, because you still have your hand available. Thus, you don't need War Caster just for the purpose of casting spells to the shield AC; in addition, you don't have to drop your shield to do something like grapple, or pick up an object. You lose the ward and then have to spend an object interaction to get it back, but that is a step above what you would need with a shield. The intent was to provide a way for Swordmages to wield a weapon in one hand and cast with the other (similar to 4E Swordmage), but balance it so that shields were still useful for those who want to spend a feat on War Caster.

I really like your infusions, although as designed I think it fits a lot better with the theme of your Janissary class than it does for my Swordmage, which is more of a general Spellsword-type Fighter/Mage than exactly like the 4E Swordmage. For example, you restrict Infusions to non-light non-heavy weapons (which makes sense), but I couldn't really do that for the Swordmage class. Maybe replace the Arcane Strike ability on the Channeling Archetype with something similar to the infusions? It's admittedly not at-will, but might be easier for the class as it is currently constructed for balancing purposes.

Maybe I should've named it Spellsword or something...

Edit: How is the channeling capstone super-unbalanced? Two attacks + a 5th level spell is a decent nova, but you can't do that more than twice, and how is it anymore damage than 4 level 20 Paladins hitting with their attacks and burning 4th-level smites at the same time? Or 4 valor bards attacking and casting a 9th level spell at the same time?

Arcane Strike effects all your attacks in a round, which is 10d6 + 25d8 + 50 damage. Per swordmage. It's not super unbalanced, but it is the most nova damage I can think of without abusing the assassin's instacrit. Also, since Tiamat is immune to most damage types, you'd have to cast a 9th level necrotic or radiant spell, and I don't know any that deal that much damage. A ninth level spell like Meteor Swarm would be better in most cases, but the Swordmage party is uniquely equipped to fight Tiamat.

Anyway, the cantrips could work as part of the arcane attunement class feature or as a replacement of the fighting style. I think it makes more sense to add them to arcane attunement since the name fits already.

I would definitely let the bladelock take these as invocations.

[miburo]

Arcane Strike effects all your attacks in a round, which is 10d6 + 25d8 + 50 damage. Per swordmage. It's not super unbalanced, but it is the most nova damage I can think of without abusing the assassin's instacrit. Also, since Tiamat is immune to most damage types, you'd have to cast a 9th level necrotic or radiant spell, and I don't know any that deal that much damage. A ninth level spell like Meteor Swarm would be better in most cases, but the Swordmage party is uniquely equipped to fight Tiamat.


How did you get those numbers? The swordmage gets two attacks per turn. Even if you're hasted and wielding a greatsword, that is at most 6d6 (weapon) + 3d8 (elemental scourge) + 15 (str mod) damage. You cast a 5th level arcane strike that becomes 15d8. So now you are at 6d6 + 18d8 + 15. Also, I don't have Tiamat's stats, but if she is immune to elemental damage types then elemental scourge is useless so that knocks of 3d8 from that list.

Granted, that's a lot of damage. But, a Paladin can do the exact same thing, using a couple of 4th level smites. And based on your statement Tiamat seems to not be immune to Radiant, so the Paladin's damage would go through more easily (Improved DIvine Smite would damage where Elemental Scourge does not). Also, does Tiamat count as a fiend? If so then the Paladin gets +1d8 for each of those smites. Even if she doesn't, the Paladin may be better for this than the Swordmage. A group of 4 Vengeance Paladins with advantage on each strike (oath of enmity), hasted and using smites, would deal tons of damage, can self- or cross-heal, and have more hit points than the Swordmage. Not to mention the automatic reaction attacks...

Also, your original comment was about the 20th level capstone, Spellsword Mastery, being unbalanced. Arcane Strike has nothing to do with this capstone. You can't use both in the same round because they both require a bonus action to use.

Edit: Thinking about adding in Spellblade as a cantrip at 1st level. Trying to see if that would be unbalanced. I suppose not if it is just a single action attack with an added status effect. Very flavorful too.

[bloodshed343]

I meant the feature that let's you make int-modifier attacks. That would be 5 attacks with a 5th level arcane strike for 10d6 + 25d8+50 (or 25?). I didn't include the 5d8 from elemental scourge because she's immune.

Anyway, yes, adding the cantrip would be very flavorful, but if you did that I would remove the extra attack feature/fighting styles and let the cantrip be the primary damage feature. This isn't due to power concerns, but because the class, in my opinion, would have too much text. Granted, it would still be less text than a monk, so if you feel the fighting style and extra attack are important to the flavor, by all means leave them be. As stated, I have a different view of what Gish means than most people.

[miburo]

I meant the feature that let's you make int-modifier attacks. That would be 5 attacks with a 5th level arcane strike for 10d6 + 25d8+50 (or 25?). I didn't include the 5d8 from elemental scourge because she's immune.

Anyway, yes, adding the cantrip would be very flavorful, but if you did that I would remove the extra attack feature/fighting styles and let the cantrip be the primary damage feature. This isn't due to power concerns, but because the class, in my opinion, would have too much text. Granted, it would still be less text than a monk, so if you feel the fighting style and extra attack are important to the flavor, by all means leave them be. As stated, I have a different view of what Gish means than most people.

Oh, the 18th level Channeling one (Arcane Fury). Hmm. Yeah, I think that feature is pretty problematic, even for a nova. I think the only way to gimp that successfully would be to make it so Arcane Strike is not applicable, but do so in a way that isn't really awkward.

I'd like to keep the fighting style and extra attack, so I'll have to figure out a way to make a cantrip work without the removing that. Just my preference, I guess.