What tier would a jedi be?

[Tvtyrant]

Both movie and EU Jedi.

[Arbane]

Both movie and EU Jedi.

Psychic Warriors are listed as Tier 3. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0)

[Seerow]

If you're going into EU probably tier 2. Some of the higher end force abilities from the novels just get silly from what I've seen mentioned in versus threads.

Movie Jedi are probably a solid tier 3, and as noted by Arbane are fairly well represented by psychic warriors.

[Feint's End]

Generally t3 as they are represented in most media.

In pathfinder they are best emulated with the Dark Tempest Prc and Soulknife.

[Rubik]

In pathfinder they are best emulated with the Dark Tempest Prc and Soulknife.Light sabers would be the equivalent of magic items, not force abilities. An Ancestral Relic effect, at most.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, I agree with Tier 3. They're mostly melee warriors with a bit of extra of mobility and some nice social powers.


Light sabers would be the equivalent of magic items, not force abilities. An Ancestral Relic effect, at most.
Ancestral Relic sounds about right, or maybe something like the Kensai's Signature Weapon.

[squiggit]

If you're going into EU probably tier 2. Some of the higher end force abilities from the novels just get silly from what I've seen mentioned in versus threads.

Movie Jedi are probably a solid tier 3, and as noted by Arbane are fairly well represented by psychic warriors.

This. Film jedi are reasonably strong with some versatile abilities but nothing overwhelming. T3 sounds right. Maybe 4.

EU has jedi that can destroy entire planets, alter reality and throw starships around. So they're a bit better.

[Gullintanni]

Also, I agree with Tier 3. They're mostly melee warriors with a bit of extra of mobility and some nice social powers.

Ancestral Relic sounds about right, or maybe something like the Kensai's Signature Weapon.

Hmmm...Lightsabers would also probably be well represented by the adamantine material. Bypassing hardness and all.

[Flickerdart]

I dunno about T3, they seem more like 4 to me. Jedi powers are considerably less diverse than a Psychic Warrior's, and they can't even fly or turn into dragons.

[Seerow]

I dunno about T3, they seem more like 4 to me. Jedi powers are considerably less diverse than a Psychic Warrior's, and they can't even fly or turn into dragons.

True, but I would give them T3 anyway. The whole Force Precognition thing being the big thing in their favor (both the in combat "know where my enemy is going to strike" use and the out of combat "Know when something bad is going on" use). Add to that the Force making the characters faster and stronger, at will telekinesis, super jump, and "weapon that cuts through anything" as a class feature, and I find it hard to knock them down to the t4 level. They definitely seem (to me at least) to shine above the ToB classes in terms of versatility.

[Gullintanni]

True, but I would give them T3 anyway. The whole Force Precognition thing being the big thing in their favor (both the in combat "know where my enemy is going to strike" use and the out of combat "Know when something bad is going on" use). Add to that the Force making the characters faster and stronger, at will telekinesis, super jump, and "weapon that cuts through anything" as a class feature, and I find it hard to knock them down to the t4 level. They definitely seem (to me at least) to shine above the ToB classes in terms of versatility.

There's also the ability to intercept incoming projectiles with their weapon of choice, their ability to influence behaviour with the force (these are not the droids you're looking for), the ability to throw their weapon of choice and summon it back to their hand. If we're interpreting "Jedi" as "Force User", then the ability to use lightning and choke opponents are both on the table.

Tier 3 fits...Jedi are competent in a wide array of scenarios and under many conditions.

[Telonius]

I'd put Jedi in Tier 3.

Sith, probably high Tier 2 or low Tier 1, considering two of them can destabilize a pretty big chunk of the galaxy.

[Bucky]

I dunno about T3, they seem more like 4 to me. Jedi powers are considerably less diverse than a Psychic Warrior's, and they can't even fly or turn into dragons.

Can't fly? I guess you can interpret the movie stunts as epic Jump checks rather than short term flight. But turning into a dragon seems to be redundant given how jedi usually itemize (i.e. flying laser fighters)

[Chronos]

It depends on how you implement them, and what level you assume the jedi characters we see are. For instance, we often see jedi who are essentially immune to all ranged attacks, and can even deflect all of those attacks back at their attackers. Already that's a pretty nifty ability, essentially equivalent to two of the better epic feats plus a few non-epic ones. If the characters pulling that off are epic, well then, we just assume that they have those feats, and it says nothing at all about their class. If they're level 1, then that's insanely overpowered. And can a lightsabre deflect a spell? We don't know, since there aren't really any spellcasters per se in the Star Wars movies. If it can, then they're very powerful indeed.

Another example: Just what are the mechanics for using force abilities? We know, for instance, that jedi can use telekinesis. But is that at-will, or X times per day, or drawing from a pool of Force points that they have to share with other powers, or only when they succeed on a roll of some sort? That makes a huge difference, too. Telekinesis at-will would probably be enough to make a class Tier 2 by itself, but 1/day is underwhelming.

And how many force powers do they know, and how easy is it to learn new ones? We never see Obi-Wan use Force Lightning-- Does that mean that he can but chooses not to, or that he's not high enough level to use it, or that he could have chosen it but chose Force Suggestion (which the Emperor doesn't have) instead?

[Sacrieur]

It depends on how you implement them, and what level you assume the jedi characters we see are. For instance, we often see jedi who are essentially immune to all ranged attacks, and can even deflect all of those attacks back at their attackers. Already that's a pretty nifty ability, essentially equivalent to two of the better epic feats plus a few non-epic ones. If the characters pulling that off are epic, well then, we just assume that they have those feats, and it says nothing at all about their class. If they're level 1, then that's insanely overpowered. And can a lightsabre deflect a spell? We don't know, since there aren't really any spellcasters per se in the Star Wars movies. If it can, then they're very powerful indeed.

Another example: Just what are the mechanics for using force abilities? We know, for instance, that jedi can use telekinesis. But is that at-will, or X times per day, or drawing from a pool of Force points that they have to share with other powers, or only when they succeed on a roll of some sort? That makes a huge difference, too. Telekinesis at-will would probably be enough to make a class Tier 2 by itself, but 1/day is underwhelming.

And how many force powers do they know, and how easy is it to learn new ones? We never see Obi-Wan use Force Lightning-- Does that mean that he can but chooses not to, or that he's not high enough level to use it, or that he could have chosen it but chose Force Suggestion (which the Emperor doesn't have) instead?

Yeah, so they get a massive insight bonus to their AC on all attacks. So er.. Tier 3.

The reason you don't see Jedi using Sith powers is that one is inimical to the other. The Sith are use the Force as a tool, while the Jedi use themselves as conduit for the Force. Force Lightning is one such ability that uses your own will to warp the Force to your own needs and thus a Sith ability only. We've actually seen some pretty stellar Jedi abilities. It's hard to judge what's canon and what's not, since even if you exclude the extended Universe you still have to deal with the fact Disney owns it now. I'm sure officially their animated show (something rebels) that replaced The Clone Wars (NOT the 2001 Samurai Jack version) isn't actually canon and I tried watching it but quickly found my body rejecting it by uncontrollably bashing my head into the monitor until I closed the video.

A Jedi Consular may be closer to tier 2. Guardians are definitely tier 3.

If you're looking for mechanics I highly suggest looking into the d20 Star Wars stuff.

[AvatarVecna]

Starkiller is a T2 or T3 chassis that's super-cheesed it's way to a higher tier. The first Force Unleashed game gave him a pretty good power arc, while the second game threw out every pretense of doing anything other than completely decimating everything everywhere at the same time. Because screw subtlety.

[Rubik]

It depends on how you implement them, and what level you assume the jedi characters we see are. For instance, we often see jedi who are essentially immune to all ranged attacks, and can even deflect all of those attacks back at their attackers. Already that's a pretty nifty ability, essentially equivalent to two of the better epic feats plus a few non-epic ones. If the characters pulling that off are epic, well then, we just assume that they have those feats, and it says nothing at all about their class. If they're level 1, then that's insanely overpowered. And can a lightsabre deflect a spell? We don't know, since there aren't really any spellcasters per se in the Star Wars movies. If it can, then they're very powerful indeed.

Another example: Just what are the mechanics for using force abilities? We know, for instance, that jedi can use telekinesis. But is that at-will, or X times per day, or drawing from a pool of Force points that they have to share with other powers, or only when they succeed on a roll of some sort? That makes a huge difference, too. Telekinesis at-will would probably be enough to make a class Tier 2 by itself, but 1/day is underwhelming.

And how many force powers do they know, and how easy is it to learn new ones? We never see Obi-Wan use Force Lightning-- Does that mean that he can but chooses not to, or that he's not high enough level to use it, or that he could have chosen it but chose Force Suggestion (which the Emperor doesn't have) instead?Jedi tend to be martial monk (and take Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection) 1 or 2/manifesting class X who take Tashalatora and Ancestral Relic. It's possible that non-Good aligned jedi (ie, most of them) and sith take legacy champion, instead of Ancestral Relic.

...Why is Ancestral Relic [Good] only, again?

[Blackhawk748]

I dunno about T3, they seem more like 4 to me. Jedi powers are considerably less diverse than a Psychic Warrior's, and they can't even fly or turn into dragons.

There is Force Flight but you only see it in EU and it is fairly short in duration, but it does let you hover and hurl lighting so i guess it gets the job done.

[Flickerdart]

...Why is Ancestral Relic [Good] only, again?
Evil characters pawn their heirlooms for drugs and prostitutes.

[Sacrieur]

Jedi tend to be martial monk (and take Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection) 1 or 2/manifesting class X who take Tashalatora and Ancestral Relic. It's possible that non-Good aligned jedi (ie, most of them) and sith take legacy champion, instead of Ancestral Relic.

...Why is Ancestral Relic [Good] only, again?

Good god you're right we haven't even mentioned martial stuff!

They are pretty close to initiator classes, since Jedi actually learn one of seven forms of lightsaber combat. These can be considered stances.

[Prime32]

Tier 3 I'd say, and that's only because of the telekinesis and mind control. Without that they're high Tier 4.


It depends on how you implement them, and what level you assume the jedi characters we see are. For instance, we often see jedi who are essentially immune to all ranged attacks, and can even deflect all of those attacks back at their attackers. Already that's a pretty nifty ability, essentially equivalent to two of the better epic feats plus a few non-epic ones. If the characters pulling that off are epic, well then, we just assume that they have those feats, and it says nothing at all about their class. If they're level 1, then that's insanely overpowered. And can a lightsabre deflect a spell? We don't know, since there aren't really any spellcasters per se in the Star Wars movies. If it can, then they're very powerful indeed.The deflection isn't a sure thing. I mean in Episode 1, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon can hold off some destroyer droids for a while, but they still try to flee rather than take their chances in a fight. And this is a Jedi Master and his star pupil, not a pair of no-name Jedi mooks.

[Tvtyrant]

Would't they basically get mage hand, evasion, charm person, haste, jump, monk ac and a lightsaber at lvl 1? Moves up to dominate, telekinesis, etc by 20?

[Feint's End]

I'd put Jedi in Tier 3.

Sith, probably high Tier 2 or low Tier 1, considering two of them can destabilize a pretty big chunk of the galaxy.

This has however nothing to do with their inate power but rather with social manipulation. Something that can't really be factored into d&d since even dysfunctional classes are in theory capable of this. (Not to mention that t2 and t1 classes can actually do this in like 1 minute)

On the versatility question. You guys shouldn't forget that jedis are highly trained individuals. Besides their obvious powers they are often capable of social and infiltration missions.

On Soulknife. Well there are the crystal focus items in pathfinder which can be used to emulate the hilt of lightsabers. That comes closer to the actual thing than any other weapon I'm aware off. Essentially jedi who can create their lightsaber out of thin air. I can however see the argument for them being able to actually lose it.
also dark tempest has great synergy with psions, wilder and contemplative wilder depending on what kind of style you want for your jedi.

[Flickerdart]

Would't they basically get mage hand, evasion, charm person, haste, jump, monk ac and a lightsaber at lvl 1? Moves up to dominate, telekinesis, etc by 20?
Charm Person, Haste, and other force powers beyond "make thing float slowly" are presumably out of the skill range of 1st level jedi. If a level 1 jedi could demonstrate those feats, Luke would have been a lot more useful in combat in A New Hope.

[Feint's End]

Charm Person, Haste, and other force powers beyond "make thing float slowly" are presumably out of the skill range of 1st level jedi. If a level 1 jedi could demonstrate those feats, Luke would have been a lot more useful in combat in A New Hope.

Very true. Jedi start off with some mediocre combat skills, social skills and maybe some Form of precognition.

[Sacrieur]

Would't they basically get mage hand, evasion, charm person, haste, jump, monk ac and a lightsaber at lvl 1? Moves up to dominate, telekinesis, etc by 20?

It really depends. Mace Windu, for instance, didn't really demonstrate any ability to manipulate other people's minds or any powerful use of telekinesis, but he could take on several assault gunships at once by himself, concussive missiles be damned. Qui-Gon Jinn on the other hand, demonstrated an extremely powerful use of Force Persuasion, taming animals, stopping poison, telekinesis, healing, and a wide variety of things. So really we're comparing Consulars to Guardians here, I would think. They're two different classes.



Charm Person, Haste, and other force powers beyond "make thing float slowly" are presumably out of the skill range of 1st level jedi. If a level 1 jedi could demonstrate those feats, Luke would have been a lot more useful in combat in A New Hope.

By the time a Jedi makes it to being a Jedi Knight, they're more than capable of all of those. Even a fresh padawan is capable of some of those. You have to remember that all Jedi begin their training at age 1.

[Flickerdart]

Do they have social skills? I don't remember amateur jedi convincing anyone of anything.

[AvatarVecna]

Do they have social skills? I don't remember amateur jedi convincing anyone of anything.

Older jedi are generally pretty convincing. Whether this is more attributable to "spells", higher Cha due to age, their advanced level (and thus, more available skill points), or just them having focused more on diplomacy throughout their career (even if they're the same level) is anyone's guess, generally speaking.

[Prime32]

Would't they basically get mage hand, evasion, charm person, haste, jump, monk ac and a lightsaber at lvl 1? Moves up to dominate, telekinesis, etc by 20?Why at lv1? :smallconfused: Going through such long, intensive training should make Jedi at least lv3 by the time they take up active duty, and even then it's rare to see rookies who can pull off overt stuff like Force Speed.

[Flickerdart]

Older jedi are generally pretty convincing. Whether this is more attributable to "spells", higher Cha due to age, their advanced level (and thus, more available skill points), or just them having focused more on diplomacy throughout their career (even if they're the same level) is anyone's guess, generally speaking.
I'd wager that experienced Jedi run into enough problems that can't be solved by judicious swording that they learn to be more tactful about what they do. Young sheltered Jedi might believe that everyone will help them solely because they are Good and Just and Noble because nobody told them that people don't like the Jedi Order.

[Tvtyrant]

Why at lv1? :smallconfused: Going through such long, intensive training should make Jedi at least lv3 by the time they take up active duty, and even then it's rare to see rookies who can pull off overt stuff like Force Speed.

Maybe we see level 1 as different. Level 1 is often guards, soldiers, blacksmiths, Etc. The baseline competence to get through life as an adult, not a guy still in cadet training.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe we see level 1 as different. Level 1 is often guards, soldiers, blacksmiths, Etc. The baseline competence to get through life as an adult, not a guy still in cadet training.
Field-ready Jedi are far above your average guard, soldier, or blacksmith. They are like special forces guys - even the crappiest Padawan who's trusted to operate in combat is going to be taking down enemies left and right. The Jedi Order doesn't have nearly enough manpower to send people out before they are really, really good at what they do.

[Seerow]

Field-ready Jedi are far above your average guard, soldier, or blacksmith. They are like special forces guys - even the crappiest Padawan who's trusted to operate in combat is going to be taking down enemies left and right. The Jedi Order doesn't have nearly enough manpower to send people out before they are really, really good at what they do.

Yeah in this, Luke going out to do insane things with approximately 2 hours of basic training is the exception that proves the rule. Consider Obi Wan is a padawan in Episode 1, and Anakin is a padawan in Episode 2. Both are competent well above what you expect for a level 1 character in D&D, and they're not even full jedi knights yet.

I'd guess your typical padawan who has graduated from studying under yoda up to working directly with a Knight is somewhere between level 3 and 5, and a typical Knight is around 6 to 10. The masters are probably operating in the 11-20 range.

[Elderand]

I'd guess your typical padawan who has graduated from studying under yoda up to working directly with a Knight is somewhere between level 3 and 5, and a typical Knight is around 6 to 10. The masters are probably operating in the 11-20 range.

Well if we go by the star wars saga system numbers Jedi Knight are 8+ and master are 13+ so that's actually pretty close.

[Forrestfire]

Honestly, I feel like Jedi would have to be at least Tier 2, given by the ability of higher-powered jedi and sith to do stuff like this:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100513121636/starwars/images/6/63/SecretSith01.JPG

I feel like like "yank a spaceship out of orbit and crash it into the ground" is something that qualifies for the world-changing power of Tier 2, even if it's limited to stuff like that. Sith Wizards probably get to be Tier 1, because of some of the ridiculous things they get to pull off.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah in this, Luke going out to do insane things with approximately 2 hours of basic training is the exception that proves the rule.
What did Luke do, exactly? The only Jedi-ish things I remember him doing were failing at lightsaber practice and then hearing the DM Obi-Wan reminding him to use his buffs when shooting the torpedo. In the next movie he uses his saber to lose against a Yeti and then gets proper training from Yoda. Hell, Han at least hit something with Luke's lightsaber, even if it was just a Taun Taun.

[IZ42]

I agree with the idea of Jedi Padawans being between tier 3 or 4, Knights being between 2 or 3, and masters between 1 and 2. Sith are probably slightly more powerful, if only because they lack restraining laws and codes(Beyond obtaining power)

[Seerow]

What did Luke do, exactly? The only Jedi-ish things I remember him doing were failing at lightsaber practice and then hearing the DM Obi-Wan reminding him to use his buffs when shooting the torpedo. In the next movie he uses his saber to lose against a Yeti and then gets proper training from Yoda. Hell, Han at least hit something with Luke's lightsaber, even if it was just a Taun Taun.

My point wasn't that Luke was doing great things with the force, but that after getting some basic training with the force got stuck escaping a death star, then shortly after blowing up said death star. I only commented about it because upthread Luke's weak force abilities was used as an argument for a low level Jedi being really weak. I was agreeing with your point that Jedi who are still in training typically don't go out adventuring.

[Shining Wrath]

A light saber is close to Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy), a +4 weapon feature.


A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Also, as demonstrated more than once a light saber can be thrown (range 20' or so), and can definitely harm constructs and objects. Which means sufficient heavy armor is of some use.

Also, a Jedi can make a light saber, and they seem to be adept at spaceship repair. So there's a touch of Artificer there as well.

[Rubik]

A light saber is close to Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy), a +4 weapon feature.

Also, as demonstrated more than once a light saber can be thrown (range 20' or so), and can definitely harm constructs and objects. Which means sufficient heavy armor is of some use.

Also, a Jedi can make a light saber, and they seem to be adept at spaceship repair. So there's a touch of Artificer there as well.Uh... Light sabers are nothing like brilliant energy weapons. Hack at a wall with a lightsaber, it'll cut through it like butter. Hack at one with a brilliant energy weapon, it won't do anything at all.

[atemu1234]

Charm Person, Haste, and other force powers beyond "make thing float slowly" are presumably out of the skill range of 1st level jedi. If a level 1 jedi could demonstrate those feats, Luke would have been a lot more useful in combat in A New Hope.

True, but have you seen the encounters he faced? No way he's level 20 by the end of the third one.

[Solaris]

A Jedi Consular may be closer to tier 2. Guardians are definitely tier 3.

If you're looking for mechanics I highly suggest looking into the d20 Star Wars stuff.

I agree with this. Jedi Guardians are only somewhat more effective at non-fighty stuff, while Consulars are pretty good all around and compare well with low-op clerics or mid-op sorcerers.

Replacing the skill-based Force powers with either martial maneuvers or psionic powers (or a combination of the two) might be a good idea, though, to import Jedi into D&D.

[DMVerdandi]

Better question.

What tier do you put the Jedi classes from the STAR WARS ROLEPLAYING GAME [D20], with all of the books behind them if they were inserted into a 3.5 game (which is legal btw)

At that point, I would solidly put them in tier 2. Tier 1 after epic level, as most force abilities would eventually cap out, any continuously gaining levels would allow one to put ranks into more of them.

[Gullintanni]

Uh... Light sabers are nothing like brilliant energy weapons. Hack at a wall with a lightsaber, it'll cut through it like butter. Hack at one with a brilliant energy weapon, it won't do anything at all.

Lightsabers function more like Adamantine weapons than like Brilliant Energy.

Concerning the use of force powers, we also see Yoda resist and deflect some of the force of Palpatine's lightning, we see Mace Windu redirect Palpatine's lightning with a Lightsaber, so if we assume transparency between force powers and spells, it stands to reason that a Lightsaber could redirect projectile based spells at least in some instances.

In episode VI, Luke uses the force to choke Gamorrean warriors in Jabba's palace, so certainly some Jedi can make use of Dark Side powers.

[Flickerdart]

True, but have you seen the encounters he faced? No way he's level 20 by the end of the third one.
Why would he be level 20 by the third one? All he did in that aside from dicing up mooks was fight Vader and then get one-shotted by lightning.

[Rubik]

Why would he be level 20 by the third one? All he did in that aside from dicing up mooks was fight Vader and then get one-shotted by lightning.Because all characters in movies and books are 20th level, even if, say, all of the spells Gandalf does aren't anything that a 5th level wizard can't do.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm only going to consider the movie Jedi here. Most every Jedi seems to have Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) and Infinite Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection), which would make them either

the equivalent of Dragons: capable of taking Epic feats at any level if they meet the other prerequisites, and with very high ability scores (19+ WIS, 25+ DEX); or
they're granted access to those Epic feats without needing to meet the prerequisites.

So either the movie Jedi "class" boosts ability scores and gives them early access to Epic feats, or they've got those Epic feats as pre-Epic class abilities. Either way, those are quite a bit stronger than most D&D class abilities. They've also got Evasion and Mettle, and all good saves. Basically they can avoid most magical effects, and even turn targeted effects back on their enemies.

Adding their psionic abilities (limited mind control, telekinesis) I'd peg them at low Tier 2.

[Rubik]

I'm only going to consider the movie Jedi here. Most every Jedi seems to have Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) and Infinite Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection), which would make them either

the equivalent of Dragons: capable of taking Epic feats at any level if they meet the other prerequisites, and with very high ability scores (19+ WIS, 25+ DEX); or
they're granted access to those Epic feats without needing to meet the prerequisites.

So either the movie Jedi "class" boosts ability scores and gives them early access to Epic feats, or they've got those Epic feats as pre-Epic class abilities. Either way, those are quite a bit stronger than most D&D class abilities. They've also got Evasion and Mettle, and all good saves. Basically they can avoid most magical effects, and even turn targeted effects back on their enemies.

Adding their psionic abilities (limited mind control, telekinesis) I'd peg them at low Tier 2.Mettle aside, you could do that with the build stub I posted earlier. Martial monk 2/manifesting class X, with Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Tashalatora. The powers could account for the rest.

[Curmudgeon]

Mettle aside, you could do that with the build stub I posted earlier. Martial monk 2/manifesting class X, with Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Tashalatora. The powers could account for the rest.
That doesn't even come close to working. The Monk gets a pass on prerequisites to select their bonus feats, but not to use them. Martial Monk alters the list of feats the Monk gets to choose among (to include all Fighter feats), but doesn't get any extra ability to use selected feats. Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection are Epic feats, but not Fighter feats. Martial Monk doesn't let you either select or use those necessary feats.

[Rubik]

That doesn't even come close to working. The Monk gets a pass on prerequisites to select their bonus feats, but not to use them. Martial Monk alters the list of feats the Monk gets to choose among (to include all Fighter feats), but doesn't get any extra ability to use selected feats. Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection are Epic feats, but not Fighter feats. Martial Monk doesn't let you either select or use those necessary feats.And that interpretation ensures that other classes which are free to choose bonus feats they do not qualify for cannot use them either.

Since there are several classes (and in quite a few cases, races) which gain bonus feats they do not otherwise qualify for and yet can use them just fine (including, yes, monk), your interpretation is quite probably flawed.

[Curmudgeon]

And that interpretation ensures that other classes which are free to choose bonus feats they do not qualify for cannot use them either.
Possibly some, but not all. How is that relevant? The Monk has freedom to select feats when it's convenient for the character to do so, in advance of meeting the prerequisites and being able to use them. That's not as good as the Ranger combat style bonus feat provisions (treated as having the feats regardless of prerequisites, which covers both selection and use), but it's not worthless. We know the Monk got shabby treatment by the game designers. We're talking about a theoretical movie Jedi class here, not the Monk.

[Anlashok]

That doesn't even come close to working. The Monk gets a pass on prerequisites to select their bonus feats, but not to use them. Martial Monk alters the list of feats the Monk gets to choose among (to include all Fighter feats), but doesn't get any extra ability to use selected feats. Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection are Epic feats, but not Fighter feats. Martial Monk doesn't let you either select or use those necessary feats.

Doesn't the monster manual pretty explicitly say that you can use bonus feats you don't meet the prerequisites for?

[Curmudgeon]

Doesn't the monster manual pretty explicitly say that you can use bonus feats you don't meet the prerequisites for?
Yes, but only if they're marked with a superscript B (example: Spring AttackB). That notation isn't used in most class descriptions, which means they're not affected by the Monster Manual rule.

[Sacrieur]

Yeah in this, Luke going out to do insane things with approximately 2 hours of basic training is the exception that proves the rule. Consider Obi Wan is a padawan in Episode 1, and Anakin is a padawan in Episode 2. Both are competent well above what you expect for a level 1 character in D&D, and they're not even full jedi knights yet.

Okay about this whole Luke is a super powerful Jedi thing. He's not. He was never super-powerful in any of the movies. His training on Degobah was more like two months, not hours, as well. There was an unmentioned time skip but there's plenty of hints that there was one. He was training with the most powerful Jedi who has ever lived and been training Jedi for a millennium. Degobah is one of the most Force-rich places in the Galaxy because of all the life on the planet. Luke is incredibly strong in the Force, probably around as equally strong as Anakin.

All of his confrontations with Vader were about trying to convince him to join the dark side. Notice in Cloud City that when Vader wants to, he quickly and easily overpowers Luke. Lord Vader is an incredibly powerful Sith, every bit as strong as he was as a Jedi, and a master at lightsaber combat. And on that note, he had to rebuild his entire lightsaber style to compensate for being a machine, but this didn't impair him in any way. The only reason Luke kept winning against him was because he wanted Luke to keep winning against him.

In Episode III, when Luke overpowers him; he was turning the dark side to do it and Vader let him.



In episode VI, Luke uses the force to choke Gamorrean warriors in Jabba's palace, so certainly some Jedi can make use of Dark Side powers.

Another brush up with the dark side. Dark side powers are not completely barred to Jedi but using their abilities tempt Jedi to turn to the dark side, almost like a drug. Any competent Jedi Knight would never attempt to do this.



I'd wager that experienced Jedi run into enough problems that can't be solved by judicious swording that they learn to be more tactful about what they do. Young sheltered Jedi might believe that everyone will help them solely because they are Good and Just and Noble because nobody told them that people don't like the Jedi Order.

Indeed, they're indoctrinated with Jedi teachings all their life, which is all about the Jedi code and honor, duty, and self-sacrifice. They're aware that people are out there who don't like Jedi, but when everyday joes don't like them they get confused. They also get tempted with things like, "Why aren't you helping us do X."

--

But let's review how exactly a Jedi is made. Force sensitive people are taken from their parents at a young age. Lessons begin before they can walk or talk, instilling basic Jedi qualities into them. By the time they're children they're training every day and the lessons continue. Physical abilities, scholastic studies, and other aspects all being impressed upon them. By the time they're 12 or 13, or thereabouts that age, they're proficient in using a lightsaber and all of the basic tools a Jedi would need to know. Their physical abilities would be nothing short of top level.

It's then that they begin apprentice selection. You heard me right, selection. Not all of them become Jedi Knights; in fact, only a small percentage of the most suitable do. Only the best, brightest, and most suitable get selected for a Master to begin training. The rest go off to use their Force powers in other ways or become a supportive member in the Jedi Order. By the time they achieve the rank of a Jedi Knight, usually happening from 18 to 19, or older, they've been battle hardened, through some serious crap, and completely 100% ready to stake it out on their own.

[Eldan]

True, but I would give them T3 anyway. The whole Force Precognition thing being the big thing in their favor (both the in combat "know where my enemy is going to strike" use and the out of combat "Know when something bad is going on" use). Add to that the Force making the characters faster and stronger, at will telekinesis, super jump, and "weapon that cuts through anything" as a class feature, and I find it hard to knock them down to the t4 level. They definitely seem (to me at least) to shine above the ToB classes in terms of versatility.

Don't forget some quite useful out of combat abilities. "These aren't the droids you're looking for."