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motivatedjanza
2007-04-11, 06:11 PM
I've got a HUGE fight coming up against my elf-loving friend. I'm using dwarves. This is a continuation from the thread "In need of Anti-Elf/Archer Tactics". If you need more info, check there.

Here's what I'm up against, bunch 'o' elves, all with composite longs:

Fighter: Greatsword. Archer. Has a load of two-handed melee feats. I will be able to take him, but I'll take all the help I can get.
Paladin: Worries me, but my Cleric will be able to hold him off. Another greatsworder. Also an archer, though not as good as the fighter.
Ranger: DEFINATELY worries me. We both have rangers. However, he's building the ranger to be the uber-archer of all uber-archer. My anti-archer tactics I've recently picked up will put that to rest. Still using two-handed combat.
Wizard: A damage-dealer. Fireballs and such. Putting a plan into motion to Feeblemind him, but its a work in progress.

And here's my team, I've got questions about all of them:

Fighter/Barbarian:
~It's Fgt 4/Brb 6. Thinking about bumping up the Fighter for another feat. Would that be wise?
~He's a sunder-er at this point. Bow-breaker specialist. Is that wise, or should I be grappling? The rest of his feats are based on improving his greataxe attack. Has the best melee stats out of anyone in the game right now.

Ranger:
~We had to pick a scout. Everyone on the old thread said monk. No. I'm sorry but my friend has this inferiority complex that says dwarves can't be rangers. Intending to prove him wrong.
~Two-Handed Weapon Fighting Style. Waraxe and Handaxe.
~He'll be my secondary melee. I think he qualifies better than my Cleric for this position.
~How do I work the favored enemy bonuses? Can I pick elf 3 times? How do they increase? This is the biggest problem I'm having. SOS!SOS!!!

Cleric:
~She's my uber-buffer/wizard-defender.
~I blew a feat on Dwarven Waraxe proficiency. Bad move?
~I'm restricted to PHB gods, but I've got free reign there. What gods would yinz guys advise?
~Should she be on the front-line instead of my ranger? They've got the exact same hit-points, but higher AC. Then again my ranger has better damage rolls and offensive power. Really confused here.

Wizard:
~Battlefield-Control/Make-Them-Suck expert. Better than direct damage?
~The basis of my strategy: Feeblemind the wizard, and Wind Wall the archers. My buffed-up melee guys should prevail.
~My DC for Feeblemind is 20 without any Focuses, which I am DEFINATELY adding. Is it worth a shot against a wizard with a +9 Will Save? Or is there any other way I can tip the odds in my favor.
~The Wind Wall strategy is probably gonna work.
~He'll also be packing stuff like Stinkcloud, Tentacles, Ray of Exhaustion, and the like.
~Would Quick-Spelling a True-Strike to guarantee a ray hit be smart or just a waste of a 5th level, my most powerful spells, spell slot?
~Another wasted feat for a Dwarven Waraxe. I'm POSITIVE he'll try to kill my wizard via melee though. Is it extra insurance or a waste?

Wowsers, for something I've been working on this long its got a lot of holes in it, huh?

Anywho, I'd appreciate any and all advice, critisisms, slaps to the face, etc. Thanks.

Dhavaer
2007-04-11, 06:17 PM
~How do I work the favored enemy bonuses? Can I pick elf 3 times? How do they increase? This is the biggest problem I'm having. SOS!SOS!!!

They just add up. Selecting Elf three times would get you a +6 bonus.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-11, 06:20 PM
...
You are a gift from the Gods, my friend
...

Krellen
2007-04-11, 06:22 PM
They just add up. Selecting Elf three times would get you a +6 bonus.
And you'd still have two other favoured enemies, at +2.

Take Magical Beast as one, for the Paladin's Mount.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-11, 06:23 PM
Right, he said he wouldn't summon anything. But he'll cry foul at my save-or-suck strategy, so I'll add on heavy warhorse to mess with his paladin.

Thanks.

Rigeld2
2007-04-11, 06:30 PM
Fighter/Barbarian:
~It's Fgt 4/Brb 6. Thinking about bumping up the Fighter for another feat. Would that be wise?
~He's a sunder-er at this point. Bow-breaker specialist. Is that wise, or should I be grappling? The rest of his feats are based on improving his greataxe attack.
I think grappler, tho mixing grappler and sunderer isnt a bad idea. I dont think the greataxe feats are worth it.


Ranger:
~Two-Handed Weapon Fighting Style. Waraxe and Handaxe.
~He'll be my secondary melee. I think he qualifies better than my Cleric for this position.
~How do I work the favored enemy bonuses? Can I pick elf 3 times? How do they increase? This is the biggest problem I'm having. SOS!SOS!!!
At 10th level, your first level Favored Enemy (elves, I guess) could (and probably would) have +6 vs elves. I still favor making the Ranger Archery style and leaving him back with the Wizard. Toss a Fly on him so he can fire over the Wind Walls.


Cleric:
~I blew a feat on Dwarven Waraxe proficiency. Bad move?
~I'm restricted to PHB gods, but I've got free reign there. What gods would yinz guys advise?
~Should she be on the front-line instead of my ranger?
IMO, bad move on the Dwarven Waraxe. Not worth the feat. Since the PHB doesnt require gods, can you follow an order (IE pick your Domains)?
I would advise the cleric up with the Fighter.


Wizard:
~My DC for Feeblemind is 20 without any Focuses, which I am DEFINATELY adding. Is it worth a shot against a wizard with a +9 Will Save? Or is there any other way I can tip the odds in my favor.
~Would Quick-Spelling a True-Strike to guarantee a ray hit be smart or just a waste of a 5th level, my most powerful spells, spell slot?
~Another wasted feat for a Dwarven Waraxe. I'm POSITIVE he'll try to kill my wizard via melee though. Is it extra insurance or a waste?
50% chance of him failing the save before focuses? I'd go for it.
I wouldnt bother with True Strike.
And yes, Dwarven Waraxe for a Wizard is a definite waste. Unless he has a reach weapon, you can always 5' away and spell them. If he has a reach weapon, stay at 5' and spell.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-11, 06:39 PM
Great, that fixes my mind for the Feeblemind, but what do I do about his ranger? A composite long with +6 damage against my dwarves is gonna be nasty. I think he's 2nd on my list after I Feeblemind the wizard.

Krellen
2007-04-11, 06:46 PM
Give your ranger an elfbane bow. Coupled with Manyshot or Rapid Shot, the bane property adds up to a lot of damage.

Or make the axes elfbane, if you want to stick with melee combat.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-04-11, 06:48 PM
Prot from Arrows or wind wall should take care of that. You also could reason with your DM to get a reversed spell that prevented him (and only him) from using ranged attacks.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-11, 07:40 PM
Protection from arrows is a waste at this point, as he has Greater Magic Weapon, if nothing else. Wind Wall is the better bet, erected somewhere in the middle of the map. Or maybe erected multiple times—leapfrogging, after a fashion.

As for the grappler vs. sunderer debate, it won't be that hard to sunder a bow, so there's no reason not to go both.

F.L.
2007-04-11, 07:52 PM
Is this 3.0 or 3.5? In 3.5, Dwarves should have familiarity with the Dwarven Waraxe and Ugrosh, so martial proficiency automatically has them.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 07:59 PM
Is this 3.0 or 3.5? In 3.5, Dwarves should have familiarity with the Dwarven Waraxe and Ugrosh, so martial proficiency automatically has them.

The problem is that it's a cleric and a wizard, that's why. You are correct however; they treat them as martial weapons.



My contribution to the thread is, since the elfs don't have a proper healer, take the paladin down first, then fighter. Wizard can be taken down by the ranger and/or the wizard; use racial Con bonus to your advantage! Hit those puny racial Con-penalised elfs' face so hard that they look like they've got racial Charisma penalty too.

F.L.
2007-04-11, 08:09 PM
Hmm. For some reason I thought clerics got martial proficiency.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 08:33 PM
Hmm. For some reason I thought clerics got martial proficiency.

You wish :smallamused:

The_Werebear
2007-04-11, 08:34 PM
Make sure your cleric takes Divine Power.

Make sure your Wizard takes Dimension Door and Haste. It also may not hurt to toss Dispel Magic in to strip buffs or for emergency counterspells. Also-Have him take Polymorph and turn your fighter into something absolutely monstrous, if you don't mind totally cheesing the foes out.

Aquillion
2007-04-11, 08:45 PM
"In 1972 a crack Dwarf squad was sent to prison by an Elven court for a crime they didn't commit. These Dwarves promptly escaped from a maximum security dungeon to the underdark. Today, still wanted by the Elven government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire: THE D-TEAM."

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-11, 08:52 PM
Grab a scroll of Time Stop for your Wizard. He gets at least Feeblemind & Black Tentacles off before anyone else can do anything.

zippy
2007-04-11, 08:59 PM
Grab a scroll of Time Stop...

That's too mean!!! Effective, but mean...

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 09:22 PM
Just use Mordenkainen's Disjunction, if you really want to play dirty.


Edit: a scroll of, that is.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-11, 09:42 PM
OK, going down your list of characters:

Fighter/Barb: I think focusing on Grappling would be a better choice. You will waste a lot of damage sundering longbows. It's not like bows have that many HPs. You might have the feats to do both.

Ranger: Consider having him be your sunder man if he meets the pre-reqs. Remember your animal companion (and his animal companion). Without looking at the actual stats I would imagine a cheetah would be a good choice, but Dire badgers are always popular. Don't forget your spells either. With second level spells you have a few interesting options. You already know about wind wall (yep, 2nd level Ranger spell). Definitely read the entire spell, you can really shape that wall however you want. Also, look at Spike Growth, it affects a pretty huge area, so some damage and halve their land speed. It could affect you as well if you get in the area of effect, so you'll probably want to dismiss it pretty early.

Cleric: (I still think a Druid would be better here). Definitely lose the waraxe feat. With two primary melee monsters, the Cleric should be casting spells most of the time. If you need a replacement feat I'd seriously consider Improved Initiative, duels like this often come down to initiative, and he's probably got better bonuses than you in this area. As for what God to take, the Magic domain is very popular, so consider Wee jas. Nobody expects a Cleric to bust out with a wand of Fireballs (or Ray of Enfeeblement).

Wizard: Again, lose the waraxe feat, even shield proficiency would be better if your worried about melee, and I'd still consider Improved Initiative. If you open with Feeblemind don't forget the last little bit of text in Feeblemind, the one that says anyone capable of casting arcane spells is at -4 on the saving throw. I still think I'd prefer to take him out with lower level spells (blind maybe). I think I would go with Stinking cloud as my opening spell. Being nauseated is really, really bad, and you also get the whole fog cloud effect, which pretty much shuts down ranged attacks. 5th level has a lot of fun spells, so consider them carefully before choosing feeblemind, not that it's a bad spell by any means. I'd be looking at both Wall of Stone and Wall of Force. Stone is exceptionally flexible, you could even close them in and throw explosive beads and similar items over the wall for fun. Also, look at Waves of Fatigue. It's got limited range, but can be situationally useful, especially if the -2 Str penalty makes your opponents unable to use their mighty composite bows. If you really don't know what to do with a wizard, ready to counterspell you're opponent (keep several dispells handy).

If he somehow manages to mess up some of your strategy (and he's probably expecting the wind walls). Remember the rules of cover for ranged attacks and get your characters in front of each other for a +4 AC bonus (PHB page 151).

Woot Spitum
2007-04-11, 09:47 PM
"In 1972 a crack Dwarf squad was sent to prison by an Elven court for a crime they didn't commit. These Dwarves promptly escaped from a maximum security dungeon to the underdark. Today, still wanted by the Elven government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire: THE D-TEAM."

This wins on so many levels.:smallbiggrin:

CockroachTeaParty
2007-04-11, 09:50 PM
I've always wondered... what does the 'crack' mean in 'crack squad' or 'crack [insert whatever]? Does anybody know?

jjpickar
2007-04-11, 09:50 PM
The Dwarf Wizard loves it when a plan comes together... Anyway, If you want your cleric to have a waraxe just take the war domain. All you have to do is worship the abstract concept of Lumberjackism.

Raum
2007-04-11, 09:53 PM
Didn't you already post this in another thread?

Rama_Lei
2007-04-11, 10:07 PM
Pick riding dog for your animal companion. That's my suggestion. Possibly a leopard.

Rigeld2
2007-04-11, 10:16 PM
I've always wondered... what does the 'crack' mean in 'crack squad' or 'crack [insert whatever]? Does anybody know?
elite
12345

Jack Mann
2007-04-11, 10:21 PM
I've always wondered... what does the 'crack' mean in 'crack squad' or 'crack [insert whatever]? Does anybody know?

I'm not sure of the etymology, but it entered into slang in the late 1700's.

jjpickar
2007-04-11, 10:23 PM
I just thought it meant they were stoned.:smalltongue:

Seffbasilisk
2007-04-12, 01:03 AM
crack, from 'crackerjack' or top of the line.

Jack Mann
2007-04-12, 02:00 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Crack in this sense is attested to as far back as 1793, while cracker-jack was first recorded in 1895. I'd tend to think that the latter is derived from the former, not the other way around.

Jalil
2007-04-12, 02:53 AM
I've got a HUGE fight coming up against my elf-loving friend. I'm using dwarves. This is a continuation from the thread "In need of Anti-Elf/Archer Tactics". If you need more info, check there.

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39749%5DHere.)


Here's what I'm up against, bunch 'o' elves, all with composite longs:
-snip-Moving on


And here's my team, I've got questions about all of them:

Fighter/Barbarian:
~It's Fgt 4/Brb 6. Thinking about bumping up the Fighter for another feat. Would that be wise?
~He's a sunder-er at this point. Bow-breaker specialist. Is that wise, or should I be grappling? The rest of his feats are based on improving his greataxe attack. Has the best melee stats out of anyone in the game right now.
Bbn 6 doesn't really do much for you. Trap sense? Please. You only really need one level of barb for the fast movement and rage, which will last you plenty long enough. minimum of 7 rounds, easy. That will get you through, if you play it right. you actually should take 2, because Ftr 9 is dead. That extra pair of fighter levels will get you IUS, which is the prereq for Imp. Grapple.


Ranger:
~We had to pick a scout. Everyone on the old thread said monk. No. I'm sorry but my friend has this inferiority complex that says dwarves can't be rangers. Intending to prove him wrong.
~Two-Handed Weapon Fighting Style. Waraxe and Handaxe.
~He'll be my secondary melee. I think he qualifies better than my Cleric for this position.
If you insist, but TWF is really, really, bad... Monk would help you win far easier, but if you insist. Going ranger would probably be best, let your cleric in melee.


Cleric:
~She's my uber-buffer/wizard-defender.Your ranger would work here better.

~I blew a feat on Dwarven Waraxe proficiency. Bad move?Try to follow an ideal, as mentioned on pg. 32 PHB. Chose war as a domain, and pick up weapon prof, and focus on it. It's Core, so it's allowed.

~I'm restricted to PHB gods, but I've got free reign there. What gods would yinz guys advise?See above

~Should she be on the front-line instead of my ranger? They've got the exact same hit-points, but higher AC. Then again my ranger has better damage rolls and offensive power. Really confused here.The (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm%5DThe) Holy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) Three (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm). This makes clerics better fighters than fighters. Cast them all, then win in melee.


Wizard:
~Battlefield-Control/Make-Them-Suck expert. Better than direct damage?Yes, much.

~The basis of my strategy: Feeblemind the wizard, and Wind Wall the archers. My buffed-up melee guys should prevail.Good plan.

~My DC for Feeblemind is 20 without any Focuses, which I am DEFINATELY adding. Is it worth a shot against a wizard with a +9 Will Save? Or is there any other way I can tip the odds in my favor.With the additional -4 spellcasters get, you're gold.

~The Wind Wall strategy is probably gonna work.QFT

~He'll also be packing stuff like Stinkcloud, Tentacles, Ray of Exhaustion, and the like. Good, TLN's teachings have not gone to waste.

~Would Quick-Spelling a True-Strike to guarantee a ray hit be smart or just a waste of a 5th level, my most powerful spells, spell slot?Big waste. If you can pick up a quicken metamagic rod, though...

~Another wasted feat for a Dwarven Waraxe. I'm POSITIVE he'll try to kill my wizard via melee though. Is it extra insurance or a waste?Huge waste. don't bother.

Good luck!

motivatedjanza
2007-04-12, 05:01 PM
Wowsers, yinz guys just pretty much saved my pathetic little butt from humiliation at the point of the elve's ears. Gracios.

Just one final question. Beside my Wind Wall plan, what else can I do to stop his self-proclaimed "all-mighty dwarf-whupping ranger."? Besides my usual amount of save-or-sucks and BF-Control, I don't really have anything specifically aimed at this guy. And, the +6 damage versus dwarves worries me. Any pointers?

The_Werebear
2007-04-12, 05:06 PM
Hit him where he hurts-The saves.

As an elf, he will have a low con, hurting his fort saves. As a ranger, he has low will saves. Drill him on those, first with a Dominate Person if you have the spell slot (if you don't try a scroll). Confusion would be another good option. Failing that, Glitterdust may be a good idea. He will have a much harder time if blinded (He may not be able to even pinpoint you, plus a 50% miss chance even if he can), and it will prevent him from hiding at the very least.

Aquillion
2007-04-12, 05:35 PM
One word of advice: In a fight like this, a lot depends on who wins the initiative. Sure, your casters are aiming things at his to try and shut them down--but his are going to be doing the same thing, and as elves they probably have more initiative bonuses. If his ranger goes before you wizard and he's smart, he might have them ready an action to shoot at your casters when they try to cast, too, in order to ensure that he gets off a Feeblemind and you don't.

So. You might also consider picking up a Ring of Counterspells for your wizard, if you think he's likely to try that. Of course, the problem here is that there's more than one spell he could use to shut you down, and if you choose the wrong one you've wasted a lot of resources on the ring, but it might be worth a thought.

...also, Wind Wall is on the ranger class list. Why not have your ranger cast it? At 10th level, you'll have access to second level spells, provided your wisdom is at least twelve. Better yet, make sure both your ranger and wizard have it prepared--that way, you double your chances to get it in first on the initiative, can replace it faster if it gets dispelled, and can place a second of the enemy manages to maneuver around the first.

Your ranger might also benefit from carrying a few scrolls for emergencies--Freedom of Action could be a good choice.

Stormcrow
2007-04-12, 06:01 PM
I wondered what a "crack dwarf" was... I'm relieved and at the same time somewhat dissapointed.

F.L.
2007-04-12, 07:08 PM
If you can get a cheetah as an animal companion, as some of the people above have suggested, and can put bull's strength on it, it can move 500' in a single round, and it's 3 attacks will all have improved trip, so they'd have +5 on the bonus, and a better to hit. Not great, but it can help.

Enzario
2007-04-12, 08:58 PM
If you insist, but TWF is really, really, bad...



WHAT????

TWF is one of the primary damage-dealing builds out there. Only catch to it is that you need a source of extra damage, otherwise all those extra attacks would be better off consolidated into a single Power Attack. This makes this build mostly only viable for rogues, scouts, and the occasional duskblade (arcane channelling to full attack lvl 13).

In this situation, though, you are correct. A ranger with TWF and no rogue/whatever levels is pretty much WIMPY. Change that.

::edit:: Unless you get two weapon rend and the nice munchy feats from the PHBII that help with your TWF. Which you should be doing anyway, if you're focusing on TWF...

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-12, 09:24 PM
I'm generally not a TWF promoter, but will the favored enemy bonus damage be enough to tip the scales in it's favor? +6 damage is pretty darn nice.

Other misc. things I have thought of:
He might be wanting to target your mage first (if he's smart), so don't let him know which one is the mage. Look into a hat of disguise or something similar so all he sees is 4 dwarves in heavy armor (except your ranger probably). At the range this will probably start, there is no way your opponent could be certain which is your mage even if they have theoretically seen the characters before.

Aquillion
2007-04-13, 12:49 AM
Ooo, sneaky! And you can have your mage carry a battle-axe even though he has no idea how to use it, to confuse them even more. But there are two problems:

1. Armor. The mage won't be wearing it. Everyone else will. A hat of disguise could help here, but...

2. Readied actions. The archer can ready an action to fire arrows at any dwarf who starts casting a spell. It'll be obvious which dwarf is the wizard when he starts casting, and with a readied action the dwarf-slayer will get to shoot them before the spell goes off, and possibly even make them lose the spell (assuming they survive, even.)

Of course, depending on the battlefield you might start behind cover... then your ranger could cast a wind wall to protect your wizard before he's put at risk at all.

Hrm, the elf with the readied action might shoot the dwarven ranger instead of the wizard if he starts casting first... That could be a problem too, though, since you might lose the Wind Wall, and would have to at least spend the Wizard's turn casting it (another reason to have both prepare one!)

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2007-04-13, 01:02 AM
I know you really want to show him up with a Dwarven Caver (that's what the PHB says Dwarven "Rangers" actually are...), but you should still consider the Monk. Great speed, and a good unarmed attack bonus for when you sprint over to the elven archer and grapple him...

Sprinting tackle, sounds good to me.

I also hope that you will reward all of us with an action-by-action breakdown of this battle when it happens.

marjan
2007-04-13, 04:24 AM
You can do ranged combat with your ranger and take Shot on the Run. Drop the Wind Wall around your party and cast expeditious retreat on your Ranger. Remain in the Wind Wall with all party members and go out with ranger, shoot and then go back in. That way they will have to move close to you to attack (or ready an action to hit you in which case you cast Dissplacement or Improved Invisibility on him) so they will lose benefit of their better mobility. When they close to melee your cleric and fighter should be able to beat the crap out of them. Only guy who can hurt you is their wizard so you just need to neutralize him first. For targeting their will saves Glitterdust is yourr best option since elves get +2 to saves vs. Enchantment spells.

Rigeld2
2007-04-13, 06:00 AM
As long as you dont use Manyshot, that works fine.
Pick up Flyby Attack... sure, it only works when you have a Fly Speed, but as long as the Wizard casts Fly on you, you can fly up, Manyshot, fly back behind the windwall.

Meat Shield
2007-04-13, 08:19 AM
Something else you may want to consider that is often overlooked are caltrops (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#caltrops). The elves are likely to have a movement advantage over you. If you get a free action somewhere, lay down a field of caltrops on expected attack paths. Especially if your windwall forces them to move to melee you or take another firing position.

Most likely you won't have the opportunity to use them, but they are relatively cheap and they may be important.

the quinn
2007-04-13, 12:57 PM
Cleric: use a scroll of control weather to get conditions where arrows can not be fired. This is cant be dispelled easily and stops the arrows completely.
Ranger: I would go 100% into TWF and even take oversized TWF and use two waraxes and put him onthe front lines with the Fighter/barbarian

Telonius
2007-04-13, 02:03 PM
I'm generally not a TWF promoter, but will the favored enemy bonus damage be enough to tip the scales in it's favor? +6 damage is pretty darn nice.

Other misc. things I have thought of:
He might be wanting to target your mage first (if he's smart), so don't let him know which one is the mage. Look into a hat of disguise or something similar so all he sees is 4 dwarves in heavy armor (except your ranger probably). At the range this will probably start, there is no way your opponent could be certain which is your mage even if they have theoretically seen the characters before.
Besides, they're elves. All dwarves look the same to them. :smalltongue:

AmoDman
2007-04-13, 02:27 PM
I've always wondered... what does the 'crack' mean in 'crack squad' or 'crack [insert whatever]? Does anybody know?

I've always just assumed it stemmed from crack of the whip, disciplined, tight.

Aquillion
2007-04-13, 11:48 PM
Something else you may want to consider that is often overlooked are caltrops (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#caltrops). The elves are likely to have a movement advantage over you. If you get a free action somewhere, lay down a field of caltrops on expected attack paths. Especially if your windwall forces them to move to melee you or take another firing position.

Most likely you won't have the opportunity to use them, but they are relatively cheap and they may be important.Don't forget that you can use an Unseen Servant to place them. It's just one 1st-level spell, and with that you can send the servant out to place them directly around the enemies without putting yourself at risk or spending further actions.

Of course, if you aren't allowed to cast the Unseen Servant before the fight, then it might be a bad idea... your wizard probably has better spells to cast once things actually start.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-13, 11:52 PM
Illusory armour and weapons on the wizard. That way they don't know which one's him until he casts Feeblemind.

Lolth
2007-04-14, 11:10 AM
So when is this epic battle? I'm curious to hear the results.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-14, 04:20 PM
Hahaha. I'm not sure if I mentioned this before guys.

My friend's not even a player. He just saw LoTR and figured elves were automatically the best race in anything and everything fantasy.

Sorry, but I'm leaving out magical items, scrolls, mounts, heck, even animal companions and summoning spells! Yes, it might not seem like fun, but if I went summon-whore on him it just wouldn't be fair. So, just to leave it balanced, I'm leaving it straight down to combat.

Anywho, the great elf-massacre of our times will take place next weekend. I'll be sure to give an account of the events, and I'll message everyone on here when I do so.

Anywho, back to saving my hide...

He's picking out spells for his wizard, paladin, and ranger this weekend(borrowed my PHB). I've caught him looking at spells like Ray of Exhaustion, so I think his plan is gonna be save-or-suck/direct damage. My uber-buffer/healer cleric counters that out, and the sooner I can eliminate wizard, the sooner battlefield control begins!

Solo
2007-04-14, 04:28 PM
Cast Reverse Gravity on his elves. Fun.

Use an Extended Maximized Empowered Reach Spell Touch of Idiocy on his wizard. 9 points of mental damage, no spell resistance or save! (You don't need to use all those feats if you don't want to.

Hit the wizard with Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, and finish him off with Cloudkill!

Etc, etc

the_tick_rules
2007-04-14, 10:01 PM
i think just having the dwarves on crack would be enough.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-14, 10:09 PM
*grumbles*
I still say a scroll of Time Stop would help...

Rigeld2
2007-04-15, 10:41 AM
*grumbles*
I still say a scroll of Time Stop would help...
But its not reliable. First of all, his wizard would need a 19 INT, which he may not feel like spending money on. Second, he needs to roll a 7 or better on his CL check. 30% chance of failure isnt something I'd spend that many resources on.

zippy
2007-05-02, 09:57 PM
Anywho, the great elf-massacre of our times will take place next weekend. I'll be sure to give an account of the events, and I'll message everyone on here when I do so.

Any updates?

henebry
2007-05-03, 10:19 AM
And here I thought "crack" was an early reference to the highly addictive form of cocaine which became the scourge of inner cities during the 80s.

Runolfr
2007-05-03, 10:29 AM
Hmm. For some reason I thought clerics got martial proficiency.

If it happens to be the preferred weapon of the cleric's deity, yes.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-03, 11:40 AM
If it happens to be the preferred weapon of the cleric's deity, yes.

But only if they take the War domain.

Telonius
2007-05-03, 11:43 AM
Yeah, any updates? I'm looking forward to hearing a tale of dwarvish supremacy.

Galahad
2007-05-03, 12:06 PM
For the ranger i suggest going with a two handed weapon. Favored power attack + Leap attack + Shock trooper = Dead Elf.

Thats at least 66 damage without factoring in str or weapon dice.


Sorry, forgot core only.

silvermesh
2007-05-03, 12:16 PM
his guys are all archers AND meleers?

don't bother making your fighty guys good at ranged anything. If his guys are halfway decent at both, they aren't supreme at either ;) two words: tower shield. everyone with a tower shield gets to say "hey nobody using ranged attacks is allowed to target me!" this forces him to either close in melee or use all his arrows up trying to put enough arrows in your shield to break it(and unless hes got some wicked feat choices this isn't even mechanically possible).
while you approach the archer you can have your tower shield up, you can't attack and use it for cover, but you can still move. if he refuses to stop trying to shoot at you make sure you are keeping track of how many arrows he has.
get rid of the mage first because his spells can still target through your shield.
cleric: never underestimate the power of silence. it works best if you can target the mage, but if you feel his save is too high, target someone next to him, or try to get one of your own party members close to him and target him. if you silence him after he's feebleminded, it will be easier to get past his save, and even if the cleric tries to heal him he will still be pretty much worthless.

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:03 PM
Make your fighter/barbarian concentrated most on grappling, though Power Attack/Improved Sunder (and maybe an adamantine weapon) are good to pick up on the side. Spiked armor is key; maybe even +1 Vicious Spiked Armor? Have him go straight for the elven wizard. Make sure he has maxxed Jump, and a Potion of Fly in his inventory, just in case. At this level, the wizard shouldn't have any easy access to Freedom of Movement or good Verbal-Component-only spells, so he should be fairly easy to grapple to death.

Since your wizard and/or ranger will be throwing up Wind Walls, you might actually want to go TWF with your ranger. TWF isn't bad when you can have +6 damage on every hit, thanks to Favored Enemy. But you could also go for a ranged ranger, especially with thrown weapons (so they can go through wind wall). For animal companion, I'd say either a Dire Weasel (elves hate Constitution damage), or Dire Bat for the flight power.

Make your wizard concentrate on battlefield control, since elves are likely to be more mobile than dwarves. Solid Fog and Black Tentacles are great at this level. Also Fortitude Save spells, like Stinking Cloud, to take advantage of the elves' lower constitutions.

For the Cleric, go straight ClericZilla. Power Attack and Quicken Spell are the only feats you really need. Use the biggest two-handed weapon you can get without spending proficiency feats. Cast the big three (linked above) at the beginning of the battle. See if you can afford a Bead of Karma (part of a Strand of Prayer Beads) to make the big three spells even more effective. Once you've buffed yourself with those, go and start wacking things, and cast your best healing spells in emergencies.

I know a lot of this is repeated advice, but I thought it might be nice to have a number of hints all in the same place.

Laurellien
2007-05-03, 01:18 PM
Fighter/Barbarian:
~It's Fgt 4/Brb 6. Thinking about bumping up the Fighter for another feat. Would that be wise?
~He's a sunder-er at this point. Bow-breaker specialist. Is that wise, or should I be grappling? The rest of his feats are based on improving his greataxe attack. Has the best melee stats out of anyone in the game right now.

If I were you, I'd only take fighter for 2 levels. Go something like Barbarian III, Fighter II, Berserk I, Frenzied Berserker IV for some real damage dealing ability. Did I mention the mandatory power attack.


Ranger:
~We had to pick a scout. Everyone on the old thread said monk. No. I'm sorry but my friend has this inferiority complex that says dwarves can't be rangers. Intending to prove him wrong.
~Two-Handed Weapon Fighting Style. Waraxe and Handaxe.
~He'll be my secondary melee. I think he qualifies better than my Cleric for this position.
~How do I work the favored enemy bonuses? Can I pick elf 3 times? How do they increase? This is the biggest problem I'm having. SOS!SOS!!!

Not much advice for ranger i'm afraid, except perhaps taking levels in the dervish prestige class.


Cleric:
~She's my uber-buffer/wizard-defender.
~I blew a feat on Dwarven Waraxe proficiency. Bad move?
~I'm restricted to PHB gods, but I've got free reign there. What gods would yinz guys advise?
~Should she be on the front-line instead of my ranger? They've got the exact same hit-points, but higher AC. Then again my ranger has better damage rolls and offensive power. Really confused here.

Become a cleric of a god with the war domain and strength domain (perhaps Kord), take it and you don't have to blow the feat. Take divine metamagic: persistent spell and power attack, and then splash out on extra turning. Then blow all of your gold on nightsticks from the Libris Mortis to get obscene numbers of turning attempts. Then before the battle, self-buff self with all of the awesome spells (enlarge person (strength domain), righteous might, bear's endurance, divine power, shield of faith etc...) and buff your party with some less long-lasting ones. BAM!!! Instant combat cleric capable of beating fighters. (Also, prepare silence for their magic users)


Wizard:
~Battlefield-Control/Make-Them-Suck expert. Better than direct damage?
~The basis of my strategy: Feeblemind the wizard, and Wind Wall the archers. My buffed-up melee guys should prevail.
~My DC for Feeblemind is 20 without any Focuses, which I am DEFINATELY adding. Is it worth a shot against a wizard with a +9 Will Save? Or is there any other way I can tip the odds in my favor.
~The Wind Wall strategy is probably gonna work.
~He'll also be packing stuff like Stinkcloud, Tentacles, Ray of Exhaustion, and the like.
~Would Quick-Spelling a True-Strike to guarantee a ray hit be smart or just a waste of a 5th level, my most powerful spells, spell slot?
~Another wasted feat for a Dwarven Waraxe. I'm POSITIVE he'll try to kill my wizard via melee though. Is it extra insurance or a waste?

Prepare polymorph, windwall, silence. You won't need to use feeblemind then as silence will negate the wizard instantly. Don't take the waraxe feat either, as I said, polymorph your wizard into a hydra with heads = caster level. COnsider taking the prestige class initiate of the sevenfold veil from complete arcane.

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:49 PM
Core-Only, dude. No Dervish. No Initiate ot7fv. (Not that you can get into that by 10th level anyway, IIRC.) No Frenzied Berserker. Actually, I'm not sure he's even allowed to multiclass or take Core PrCs in this duel.