so what would 5e getting ogl mean?

[Rfkannen]

I heard somewhere that ogl was something 3.5 had and 4e didn't. What would it mean if 5e got it? I heard someone say that it would be good.


Note; I have no idea what I am talking about.

[JFahy]

Open Gaming Licence; it allows other companies, and people, to make supplements,
apps, online resources, and stuff like that based on the game rules without having
to obtain permission...provided the things they make are also under the Open
Gaming License. (It's a 'Share-Alike' license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share-alike), which you might have heard of,
kind of like the looser Creative Commons licenses: "I'll share this with you as long
as you promise to share it, too".)

For Pathfinder, for example, there are places where you can look up the descriptions
for every monster and every spell and every magic item because they're under the
Open Gaming License. If you create something like that for D&D5 today, you might
get a cease-and-desist letter from WotC's legal team.

For another example - my friend uses an iPad app called Fight Club which is an
on-screen character sheet; you enter your stats, skills and so forth and it does
some of the game math for you. The Fight Club team was recently contacted by
Wizards and told there were some copyrighted elements in their D&D5 sheet that
Fight Club had to stop using. Under OGL this wouldn't have happened.

[Galen]

I heard somewhere that ogl was something 3.5 had and 4e didn't. What would it mean if 5e got it? At the very least, it would mean 6th edition is out. WotC will never consider an OGL to an edition that they are actively selling.

[nyjastul69]

4e didn't have an OGL. It did however have a GSL (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome)

[Slipperychicken]

Anyone who doesn't want to pay (or even just wants to check it out before paying) can easily pirate the books anyway. Even if you're a land-lubber who's scared of the law, you can still get the most important core rules from the free basic PDF.

Personally, I don't think it's happening. They explicitly said this edition was an attempt to unify their customers, so they certainly don't want to make it easy for competitors to rip off their ideas, or for custom tools (I'm looking at you, d20srd and dndtools) to divert traffic from their website.

[Mara]

WotC business practices are the largest problem with 5e. Most of my gaming sessions occur via internet, so I can't just hand my books through skype. It's rather unreasonable to force new players to buy books (as a DM). I bought books because I am planning to DM and am currently reading the books like a novel.

In local games, I could just pass around my book around, but we are in a new technological age compared to when D&D started. (as in not all games are local or in person) 3.5 was aware of this and implemented OLG. New players could access the rules, veteran players spent more money because they had more people to play with. Other companies jumped in and tried to expand the market as much as possible.

By the time I got into 3.5, it was a dead edition, so I did not buy any books. I have easily spent more on Pathfinder than I have on 5e, even after buying all three books from amazon.

I doubt paizo will lose the market edge to WotC, purely base on their business models. If WotC went OGL, Paizo may or may not create 5e conversions of their adventure paths (APs is where Paizo makes most of its money, as reported by their devs on their forums). This would boost 5e popularity. Now whether or not that method would net more book sales is something an armchair CEO like myself can't reasonably predict. What is certain is that 5e would be more popular.

[JFahy]

Do we know if Paizo makes more money from adventure paths or from splatbooks?

[TrollCapAmerica]

At the very least the OGL just showed how dominant 3.5 was when other companies were practically begging to use their system. Its going to take a long time before D&D has that level of credibility again

[Finieous]

At the very least the OGL just showed how dominant 3.5 was when other companies were practically begging to use their system. Its going to take a long time before D&D has that level of credibility again

Actually, when (and to some extent because) 3.5 was launched, third-party companies had warehouses full of d20 stuff they couldn't sell. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I think WotC is trying to build their business on a) high-volume, high-margin evergreen products and b) media licenses. Sell a lot of just a few things with a trim staff and low overhead. Generate additional revenue streams through licensing. Maybe you only produce half the revenue that you did with all those support products, but if you produce it with 20% of the costs, that's a winning strategy. Either way, I don't see how an OGL helps them and don't expect to see one.

[Slipperychicken]

WotC business practices are the largest problem with 5e. Most of my gaming sessions occur via internet, so I can't just hand my books through skype. It's rather unreasonable to force new players to buy books (as a DM). I bought books because I am planning to DM and am currently reading the books like a novel.

I heard they wanted to sell PDFs of the books online (which is common sense in my opinion), but the plan fell through shortly before release and they never really bothered to try it again.

[Mara]

Actually, when (and to some extent because) 3.5 was launched, third-party companies had warehouses full of d20 stuff they couldn't sell. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I think WotC is trying to build their business on a) high-volume, high-margin evergreen products and b) media licenses. Sell a lot of just a few things with a trim staff and low overhead. Generate additional revenue streams through licensing. Maybe you only produce half the revenue that you did with all those support products, but if you produce it with 20% of the costs, that's a winning strategy. Either way, I don't see how an OGL helps them and don't expect to see one.

Fair point, the 3.5 money train require lots of work from WotC to really milk. I guess WotC could be going the Nintendo route, where higher margins and lower overhead take precedence over highest profits. WotC may be planning to sit on 5e for a very long time.

[Mara]

I heard they wanted to sell PDFs of the books online (which is common sense in my opinion), but the plan fell through shortly before release and they never really bothered to try it again. I would have bought them with the books and then shared the pdfs with all perspective players.

That kind of thing may be exactly why WotC didn't put out pdfs.
*Btw it may or may not be very difficult to borrow a digital copy of 5e books from a "close friend" do to how confusing this editions names are, the popularity of 5e, and the lack of official pdfs. Not to mention the "distant close friend" sharing circle has took some hits in recent months.

[ProphetSword]

WotC business practices are the largest problem with 5e. Most of my gaming sessions occur via internet, so I can't just hand my books through skype. It's rather unreasonable to force new players to buy books (as a DM).

New players are not forced to buy anything. There is a free PDF available called the "Basic Rules" that allow players who have not spent money to play in the same environment as those who have. The rules are completely compatible with the Player's Handbook and can exist at the same table, virtual or otherwise. The Basic Rules are considered the "core" of the game, everything else is optional.

[Galen]

New players are not forced to buy anything. There is a free PDF available called the "Basic Rules" that allow players who have not spent money to play in the same environment as those who have. The rules are completely compatible with the Player's Handbook and can exist at the same table, virtual or otherwise. The Basic Rules are considered the "core" of the game, everything else is optional.
The basic rules are a gateway drug, obviously. You sort-of have everything you need to play ... but for how long can you be satisfied playing only 4 races and 4 classes, each with only one subclass? Not to mention the two spell-casting classes have a greatly shortened spell list. The free PDF is just something that (hopefully) makes you go "I wish I had the full book". It's not something you can actually play with, beyond one-two simple games to familiarize yourself with the system.

[Elricaltovilla]

New players are not forced to buy anything. There is a free PDF available called the "Basic Rules" that allow players who have not spent money to play in the same environment as those who have. The rules are completely compatible with the Player's Handbook and can exist at the same table, virtual or otherwise. The Basic Rules are considered the "core" of the game, everything else is optional.

The basic rules also suck, don't have half the classes, don't have most of the monsters, and are missing key elements of the game that vastly improve the system. The basic rules are a demo-version of 5e, don't even try to pretend that they're anything like a complete version of the game.

[Gnaeus]

The OGL (and its beloved family members, d20 SRD and especially PFSRD) was the greatest innovation in tabletop gaming in the 21st century.

You heard me right. I stand by that.

If they do not replicate it, or replace it, 5e will not be my game of choice.

It does not matter to me if a game has better rules, if I cannot access them in a usable manner. I am never, never again walking into a con with a bigass crate full of books just so I can sit at a table and figure out what my spells and feats do.

The more character options a game has, the better the game is.

You heard me right. I stand by that too. 5e will only be improved by 50 more playable races, 20 more classes, and thousands more spells, magical items, feats, class options, etc. I do not have the slightest respect for fears of power creep. Any balance issues that our group cares about will be addressed at table.

But for that to be true, I need a good way to access that material. Even if the bigass crate of books turns into a collection of PDFs I can keep on my tablet, I want to be able to go to 5eSRD and type the name of the spell or feat and have needed rules for it, not hunt through 15 PDFs. I want a consolidated spot where I can find all level 3 cleric spells or all magic weapons. If wizards wants to do that, or wants to let other people do it, 5e is shaping up to be a superior RPG. If not, PF will remain a more playable game, even if I like 5e's rules and products more.

[Mara]

As far as PF vs 5e in terms of playable, I will have to go "ehhhhhh".

The PRD and PFSRD help players of pathfinder navigate the seemingly endless rules. 5e mechanics are far more easy to intuit. You can reasonably master 5e mechanics in way that just is not reasonable for Pathfinder.

The main issue is getting players access to a PH in some form or another. Giving a player the basic rules pdf and saying, "spend money if you want the real rules you free loading moocher leech", is a great way to receive "the bird" and lose a player.

[XmonkTad]

The more character options a game has, the better the game is.

You heard me right. I stand by that too. 5e will only be improved by 50 more playable races, 20 more classes, and thousands more spells, magical items, feats, class options, etc. I do not have the slightest respect for fears of power creep. Any balance issues that our group cares about will be addressed at table.


While I may agree in principle, this seems like the exact opposite of what wizards was going for in 5th ed. Wizards really gave you the tools to make the game your own this time, and the DM is encouraged to homebrew in a very serious way. What the OGL did for 3rd edition was turn the DM into more of a cutter than a creator (and my DM always banned Tome of Battle).

It's much more "make your own pantheon" rather than "choose classic, Greek, Egyptian, or Norse flavors for your campaign."

As for 5th ed going OGL, I would love it because I don't want people who make awesome, time saving, D&D tools to get cease and desist letters when they weren't making money and just doing it for the love of the game.

[Telok]

I think that electronic tools will make or break WotC D&D.

My group has 20+ books of classes, races, spells, feats, magic items, equipment, variant rules, monsters, and stuff for 3.5, and it's a horror to deal with. Plus we need all the books at game just in case someone has (or wants when we level up) a particular thing. Whici is exactly what spawned things like the crystalkeep indexes, the hyperlinked srd, and the dndtools database. Searchability and filtering are pretty much necessary once you pass two or three hundred things scattered across +3 books.

I leveled a pre-gen cleric to 3, and I hated it. Figuring out what spells were available and what they did for the first time was a chore and a nusiance. I bookmarked the cleric spell list and then went on a fifteen minute page flipping trip just to see what was available. Then I had to do it again to check all the first level spells that might ramp up with a higher slot. A deck of spell cards could have helped, except that I can't gauarantee that they'll be kept in order. I already have a set of all the 3.5 ToB maneuver cards like that, order is nonexistant.

3.5 and PF can be played pretty easily with access to the electonic tools because, even with 1000+ feats and 10,000+ spells you can sort and filter and trim your options to a manageable size that's easily accessed. If WotC won't or can't (sadly the evidence is towards "can't") produce tools to do that then the fan base will. We always have, even back in AD&D with 286 processers and dial-up it happened. WotC will either embrace it, or try and fail to destroy it. Any OGL/GSL licensing will indicate a direction for that, and that direction will determine the long term success of the edition.

[MrStabby]

I think it is a bit harsh to blame WotC too much for this. My understanding is that in some parts of the world IP which isn't defended is presumed to have lapsed. This means Cease and Desist letters are needed not to hurt individuals or because there is a worry about what they are producing but simply because it can have a much bigger impact on their rights in relation to other people further down the road.

I imagine that WotC might open up shortly after fully appraising the market and analysing what is working/not working about the edition. I think the problem is likely to be a network effect; once the player base splits up into factions with different rules, different interpretations, different versions it becomes harder to pick up and play a game. If WotC wants to sell adventures then they must be compatible with the expansions and classes released - once this gets taken out of their hands they may be harder to fix.

On the other hand a thriving community building lots of adventure modules gives this game system an edge over others so an OGL has some benefits but they may want to be specific about which features are open and which are not.

[themaque]

D20 and the OGL had some really good aspects and did some really amazing things for the gaming community. people have mentioned many of them already. It also did some HORRIBLE things.

Everyone jumping on the same d20 bandwagon flooding the market with shovel-ware.
Creating an environment where players refuse to learn any new game or system.
To many games died or came close by falling into the D20 trap.

That being said, There is nothing wrong with a company wanting you to buy their books. Outside of D20 how many other games just allow you to have EVERYTHING for free? But provided they quickly start selling PDF versions of their work, it should be okay. I can understand them being nervous about it however. How many times have we seen

"Wow, I'm surprised this game went out. I had all their stuff!"

"Didn't you just download the whole thing?"

"Yeah, you want a copy?"

And Devil's advocate, they kind of HAVE to send out C&D letters to people. If they don't show they are actively enforcing their trademark, it can hurt them in court against people who are REALLY hurting them. Sometimes the fans get caught up in the whole thing. Yeah copyright rules in the US are 'Effed up.

[Mara]

Why don't the send a C&D and then a "licensing" contract of $1?

[Giant2005]

What would it mean if 5e got it?

It would mean that a significant portion of Wizards's former customer base would now instead be playing a game called "Pathfinder Next". It would also mean that Wizards would be frantically trying to devise a new edition to try and get those players back.

[druid91]

Eh. I really don't see a use for an OGL in 5e. It's so simple as to not really need one. As well, given the heavy emphasis on homebrew in the DM's guide, I REALLY doubt they're gonna come out with a ton of splats like in 3.5.

[Mara]

It would mean that a significant portion of Wizards's former customer base would now instead be playing a game called "Pathfinder Next". It would also mean that Wizards would be frantically trying to devise a new edition to try and get those players back.

Lol what? Paizo didn't make Pathfinder until WotC dropped 3.5 for 4e. The Paizo devs have repeatedly stated that they make more money on APs than rule books. Although that is not to say Paizo wouldn't make their own brand of splat book from time to time if 5e went OGL.

There is a good chance Pathfinder would have never happened if WotC didn't force publishers to choose between making material for 4e or 3.5. If 4e had OGL, Pathfinder would have never happened. WotC forcibly created their biggest competitor. Paizo became a company that had a vested interest in 4e failing, and they have the same interest in 5e failing.

[druid91]

Lol what? Paizo didn't make Pathfinder until WotC dropped 3.5 for 4e. The Paizo devs have repeatedly stated that they make more money on APs than rule books. Although that is not to say Paizo wouldn't make their own brand of splat book from time to time if 5e went OGL.

There is a good chance Pathfinder would have never happened if WotC didn't force publishers to choose between making material for 4e or 3.5. If 4e had OGL, Pathfinder would have never happened. WotC forcibly created their biggest competitor. Paizo became a company that had a vested interest in 4e failing, and they have the same interest in 5e failing.

Issue is, there's no reason for 5e to fail like 4e did. It's simple, easy to play, and still recognizably D&D.

Whereas Pathfinder is a massive edifice of cool, but nonsensical rules.

[themaque]

There is a good chance Pathfinder would have never happened if WotC didn't force publishers to choose between making material for 4e or 3.5. If 4e had OGL, Pathfinder would have never happened. WotC forcibly created their biggest competitor. Paizo became a company that had a vested interest in 4e failing, and they have the same interest in 5e failing.

Yes, they created Pathfinder, but Pathfinder does NOT need 5e to fail. Both games are diffrent enough that they can easily exist together in the marketplace.

[Mara]

Yes, they created Pathfinder, but Pathfinder does NOT need 5e to fail. Both games are diffrent enough that they can easily exist together in the marketplace.
This is true. 5e and Pathfinder treat the rules in distinctly different philosophical ways.

I think Pathfinder would prefer for 5e to fail. Paizo is not very cutthroat. Their only real tactic to putting someone out of business is to offer higher quality product and better services/support. The focus being the latter.

[themaque]

This is true. 5e and Pathfinder treat the rules in distinctly different philosophical ways.

I think Pathfinder would prefer for 5e to fail. Paizo is not very cutthroat. Their only real tactic to putting someone out of business is to offer higher quality product and better services/support. The focus being the latter.

Are you Canadian?

"We will show those jerks! We are going to put them out of business by being very polite, respectful, and working together in public!

But behind closed doors, we will produce a high quality product at a good price!

That will show'em! Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha ha Haaaa!"

[Strill]

I heard they wanted to sell PDFs of the books online (which is common sense in my opinion), but the plan fell through shortly before release and they never really bothered to try it again.

They wanted to sell some online character manager app, but the developers were only able to produce an app for mac - the PC version was completely FUBAR.

[JAL_1138]

They wanted to sell some online character manager app, but the developers were only able to produce an app for mac - the PC version was completely FUBAR.

Didn't the devs for that project go out of business?

I wonder if it was the dev itself failing to deliver a workable product, or the Hasbro corporate overlords giving too little budget, too little time, and unreasonable demands...probably a combination. Given that 4e's VTT project went belly-up too, I think either they're terrible at picking developers or there's something weird going on with how they're asking them to work.

And yes, earlier commenters are correct--if they don't C&D nearly everything that they find out about, they could have problems if a major publisher completely ripped them off. US IP law is indeed screwy.

Although I've used VTT when it was the only option, I'm an old back-in-my-day-dagnabbit Luddite regarding tabletop and hate the notion of using a computer or tablet at the table. But even I'll admit that WotC needs to figure out some way to get an SRD and some worthwhile online tools going. A branded VTT that already has monster and PC tokens with easily-adjusted macros baked right into it would be huge and the idea shouldn't be dismissed even if the first dev they got for it failed do deliver, but even an SRD that ran worth a dang (the 4e tools I used in the one VTT game I was in slowed my PC to a crawl and tended to freeze up or crash, which just reinforced my bias toward dead-tree versions) would help win some converts. It's so important to people anymore to be able to look things up on a tablet, keep the books in digital form, and game through VTT.

[Gnaeus]

While I may agree in principle, this seems like the exact opposite of what wizards was going for in 5th ed. Wizards really gave you the tools to make the game your own this time, and the DM is encouraged to homebrew in a very serious way. What the OGL did for 3rd edition was turn the DM into more of a cutter than a creator (and my DM always banned Tome of Battle).

Opposite of what they SAID they were going for perhaps. Things like the Elemental Evil players guide, with half a dozen new races and dozens of new spells, is a good indicator that things are moving my way on the character choice option. Put out one or two of those every 6 months, and pretty sure I will have all the options I want, as long as I can find them without hunting through 40 PDFs.

[Kurald Galain]

And Devil's advocate, they kind of HAVE to send out C&D letters to people. If they don't show they are actively enforcing their trademark, it can hurt them in court against people who are REALLY hurting them. Sometimes the fans get caught up in the whole thing. Yeah copyright rules in the US are 'Effed up.

Anyone remember TSR ("They Sue Regularly")? That was their strategy as well... didn't end up so well for them.

I don't believe that Hasbro of all companies needs to worry about other publishers trying to rip them off; they should easily be able to handle this. Rather, it strikes me they're being unnecessarily protective and out-of-touch with how the internet works.

[druid91]

Opposite of what they SAID they were going for perhaps. Things like the Elemental Evil players guide, with half a dozen new races and dozens of new spells, is a good indicator that things are moving my way on the character choice option. Put out one or two of those every 6 months, and pretty sure I will have all the options I want, as long as I can find them without hunting through 40 PDFs.

Except it was free. They're not making any money off that, so they've no reason to churn out more of them. In this case, it was a bonus to try and get you to buy the pre-written adventure book that went with it.

[Gnaeus]

Except it was free. They're not making any money off that, so they've no reason to churn out more of them. In this case, it was a bonus to try and get you to buy the pre-written adventure book that went with it.

Then as long as they keep producing adventure books, theres a good chance we will keep seeing free character supplements. And since its free, as you point out, they aren't losing any revenue if they license someone to put it on the web in a searchable format, or if they do it themselves. The full game has been out less than 6 months and already we have extra content. Which is pretty much what most of the internets predicted would happen. Maybe it will stop, but I doubt it.

[JAL_1138]

Then as long as they keep producing adventure books, theres a good chance we will keep seeing free character supplements. And since its free, as you point out, they aren't losing any revenue if they license someone to put it on the web in a searchable format, or if they do it themselves. The full game has been out less than 6 months and already we have extra content. Which is pretty much what most of the internets predicted would happen. Maybe it will stop, but I doubt it.

Extra PDFs to go with adventure modules is hardly the kind of splat bloat that 3rd had. Or even 2nd. The thing about .pdfs is they have zero print costs or shipping costs, just development and webhosting, and can be as long or short as you like.

It could still end up troublesome, but it's less likely.

[SharkForce]

Anyone remember TSR ("They Sue Regularly")? That was their strategy as well... didn't end up so well for them.

I don't believe that Hasbro of all companies needs to worry about other publishers trying to rip them off; they should easily be able to handle this. Rather, it strikes me they're being unnecessarily protective and out-of-touch with how the internet works.

or perhaps the internet is out of touch with how US IP law works. you either make a gigantic ass of yourself and go berserk any time someone even looks at your IP funny without your explicit permission, or you risk losing your IP. yes, that sucks. yes, it is stupid that they would set up their laws like that. but it is what it is. WotC (nor Hasbro) cannot rewrite IP laws to be less stupid.

edit: on a side note, more content will come. it is inevitable. it has happened in every edition of D&D. it is going to happen in this one. it may be slow or fast, it may be free or paid for, but it will come. hopefully in the future, it will come for classes that don't cast spells also.

[Gnaeus]

Extra PDFs to go with adventure modules is hardly the kind of splat bloat that 3rd had. Or even 2nd. The thing about .pdfs is they have zero print costs or shipping costs, just development and webhosting, and can be as long or short as you like.

It could still end up troublesome, but it's less likely.

There is no such thing as splat bloat. There is just awesome new content (and people who fear awesome new content, but thats their personal problem). Extra content PDFs are not troublesome, they are just made of win, and the more of them they are, the more win they contain.

The thing about those supplement PDFs is that they are all crunch. That little ToEE thing had more crunch than most 3.5 supplements. It was only short because it wasn't full of needless filler to make it look like it should be worth 20$. The only thing that is troublesome is that we do not, yet, have a good searchable format to check the spells and options in the PHB+the PDF+the future crunch containing PDFs they print. If Wizards makes one or allows one, golden. If not, well, the PFSRD is still working properly.

[Kurald Galain]

or perhaps the internet is out of touch with how US IP law works. you either make a gigantic ass of yourself and go berserk any time someone even looks at your IP funny without your explicit permission, or you risk losing your IP.

There are numerous companies in the market that don't act like that, though.

[SharkForce]

There are numerous companies in the market that don't act like that, though.

then they are taking on risk of their IP being diluted.

[MrStabby]

There are a few but their business model is usually to make money on support of software. Release software for free then provide consultancy services using it.

I don't know of any company that actually makes their money from their IP that does not vigorously protect it every chance they get.

[Beleriphon]

There are numerous companies in the market that don't act like that, though.

They do, what you generally don't see are people complaining about it after the fact. Do you honestly think Disney isn't going to send you a letter telling you to stop using Mickey Mouse if you sell Mickey Mouse birthday caks out of your kitchen once they find out?

[Kurald Galain]

I don't know of any company that actually makes their money from their IP that does not vigorously protect it every chance they get.
That's precisely the point. Should WOTC be making money from the "Dungeons and Dragons" IP, and the (very few) non-free creatures like the illit squid thingy? Or should they be making money from quality adventure modules and novels?


They do, what you generally don't see are people complaining about it after the fact. Do you honestly think Disney isn't going to send you a letter telling you to stop using Mickey Mouse if you sell Mickey Mouse birthday caks out of your kitchen once they find out?
Yes, yes, Disney is one of the best known examples of a company that will sue pretty much anyone.

[Luriant]

Pathguy is back online, thanks to the OGL.
http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

With only the Starter Pack activated, so 4 races, 5 backgrounds, 4 classes without specializations and 0 Feats.
Is a joke, we can't make a character limited to the starter pack.

[Stan]

I think OGL was a great thing despite all the crap that was also produced. I think higher ups in WOTC didn't realize all the implications of the OGL. They wanted people to to able to support D&D with new adventures and stuff. They didn't fully realize that things like Mutants and Masterminds, Book of Erotic Fantasy or Mongoose's pocket version of the rules could happen. People realized that they could sell stuff with only the OGL, and ignore the D20 license. That alarm is what caused the GSL for 4e and even tighter controls for 5e (so far).

It looks like they prefer to make direct partnerships where they have some control at this point. They let others do the work but it still says D&D and fits their standards. They might loosen it to the level of the GSL at some point but I doubt there will be an OGL.

[Yrnes]

Just to chime in here, I was actually contacted by Wizards of the Coast when I started my Dungeons on Demand project (link in signature) because I initially (and erroneously) attributed it to the OGL.

They were really cool with me making my own adventures for profit, provided I didn't use any of their trademarked ("D&D," "Dungeons & Dragons," etc), and that copyrighted material was referenced instead of quoted (So I could say "refer to magic missile, or kenku in this book..." but not outright paste the information in the product). They were even cool with me making up my own monsters and items. All they asked for was a small attribution, and otherwise gave it their blessing. No C&D, no scolding, just a "hey, thanks for the love, let's make these changes, and best of luck!"

That pretty much makes me feel like they've moved past a wordy, hard-to-understand OGL written in legalese and basically ignored by everyone who would make or use the project anyway.

[ProphetSword]

The basic rules also suck, don't have half the classes, don't have most of the monsters, and are missing key elements of the game that vastly improve the system. The basic rules are a demo-version of 5e, don't even try to pretend that they're anything like a complete version of the game.

And yet, the "Basic Rules" are a complete version of the game, capable of playing a full campaign from start to finish. All equipment and core rules are present. Everything else is extra, whether that be additional races and classes, optional rules involving feats or more spells for casting classes. Plenty of people play D&D or variants with rules just as slim and choices just as few, and some even prefer it that way.

Whether it's your preferred version of the game doesn't change it's status as a working game that is enjoyed by many.

[Stan]

JThat pretty much makes me feel like they've moved past a wordy, hard-to-understand OGL written in legalese and basically ignored by everyone who would make or use the project anyway.

That's nice to hear.

I wonder if part of the reason was that people like Clark Peterson have put forth that what you have done is not copyright violation so that they actually don't have much of a case (according to my understanding and memory of past events). Not that being legally correct has stopped other corporations from hammering people.

[Yrnes]

I'm sure they'll pursue anything egregious, I've seen them shut down kickstarters (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930926133/rpg-tarrasque-miniature) before. I replied promptly to their requests and was willing to comply to whatever they've asked, and I feel like that went a long way to make them so accommodating.

I mean, hey, if you're going to make a product that points buyers back to their core books, why wouldn't they want to encourage that?

My main point with the OGL was that it was confusing and intimidating. Wizards had a whole FAQ on the darn thing by itself, and in the end, it's needlessly complicated.

[b4ndito]

All I'm really concerned with is that they make an internet accessible database just for ease of play. I don't care if I have to pay for access even after buying the book

[Vogonjeltz]

By the time I got into 3.5, it was a dead edition, so I did not buy any books. I have easily spent more on Pathfinder than I have on 5e, even after buying all three books from amazon.

Which is exactly why this would only be "good" for a specific subset, the consumer who doesn't want to pay anything for content and 3rd parties. OGL does nothing for the original creator.


The basic rules are a gateway drug, obviously. You sort-of have everything you need to play ... but for how long can you be satisfied playing only 4 races and 4 classes, each with only one subclass? Not to mention the two spell-casting classes have a greatly shortened spell list. The free PDF is just something that (hopefully) makes you go "I wish I had the full book". It's not something you can actually play with, beyond one-two simple games to familiarize yourself with the system.

Eh, the PHB is relatively inexpensive considering all the types of game hobbies that exist. If you can afford a luxury item like the internet, you can afford a luxury item like a book.

[themaque]

By the time I got into 3.5, it was a dead edition, so I did not buy any books. I have easily spent more on Pathfinder than I have on 5e, even after buying all three books from amazon.

just also had to mention, considering how little 5e stuff there is vs how much Pathfinder stuff there is, this is in no way a hard thing to do. :-)



Eh, the PHB is relatively inexpensive considering all the types of game hobbies that exist. If you can afford a luxury item like the internet, you can afford a luxury item like a book.

And given the way the modern world works, This is a debate in of itself. ;-)

[Vogonjeltz]

just also had to mention, considering how little 5e stuff there is vs how much Pathfinder stuff there is, this is in no way a hard thing to do. :-)



And given the way the modern world works, This is a debate in of itself. ;-)

Well that is why I chose internet access, another thing that is relatively costly (and has a recurring cost too!)

[Telok]

All I'm really concerned with is that they make an internet accessible database just for ease of play. I don't care if I have to pay for access even after buying the book

This is the real issue that I referenced. I think that the legal/ogl stuff is mostly a sidetrack. Once people are up to having to sort or search more than 300 things (spells so far, eventually monsters, items, feats, subclasses, and races) then you see the emergence of fan created data sets to organize these things. They may be databases, spreadsheets, character generators, or just sorted (searchable) pdf lists. This has and will occur.

The IP owners have basically four options.

First they could ignore it, apparently this causes issues with the US legal system, I don't know. Essentially this won't happen.
Second they can shut everyone trying to be a legitimate vendor or fan-writer down via lawsuits, which is the historic response that they have. People have a historic response to this tactic which the internet has only made easier.
Third is to preempt the creators of databases, character sheets, etc. by releasing their own versions (in house or through liscensing/contracting) that work. Unfortunately they have a really bad track record at this, the 4e database is the best they've ever managed to complete and that's just a basic database with the simplest search methods implemented.
The fourth option is to identify the people who are creating tools and enter into liscensing agreements with them. The IP owner could have the tools without internal expenditure, IP control through the liscense, and a revenue stream via a paywall. The corporate lawyers would probably have a hissy fit tho.


Seriously, in any edition of D&D currently out how do you find all the fourth level spells that heal people? AD&D: search all the books or try the internet, 3.5: search all the books or bemoan that a website was C&Ded into oblivion, PF: run a search on d20pfsrd.com, 4e: run a search on D&Dinsider if you've paid a pittance or search all the books if you haven't, 5e: search all the books (which isn't bad yet but will be a nuisance by this time next year).

This is the 21st century, searchable databases are a thing and people will pay you for access to them.

[Kurald Galain]

The IP owners have basically four options.

Or fifth, they could create an actual OGL and not worry about it. This has historically been extremely successful, it just flies in the face of traditional management practice.

[Stan]

First they could ignore it, apparently this causes issues with the US legal system, I don't know. Essentially this won't happen.


In my understanding, trademarks and the like need to be defended or they lose their status. Copyright does not have to be defended.

[themaque]

Or fifth, they could create an actual OGL and not worry about it. This has historically been extremely successful, it just flies in the face of traditional management practice.

I'm really not so certain this is an edition that NEEDS an OGL, at least nothing like what we saw in 3.5