Concerning the Charm spells.

[DarkHarlequinn7]

So I can't help but notice something really odd about the Charm Person/Monster etc. spells. They all have verbal and somatic components, which means that if you use them in conversation, the person you are talking to can very clearly see and hear you casting a spell, and then suddenly they start to like you more. I would think that if that person has an intelligence higher than 4 they would be able to figure out what just happened. Is there something I am missing here? Or did those spells just get a lot more useless?

[Vhaidara]

The thing is, you didn't suddenly start liking them more. You always liked them. And would your bestest buddy in the world cast a charm spell on you?

[Geddy2112]

Sure, they notice you cast a spell, but can they identify it? If you cast a spell and they notice, unless its a clear result like fire just appeared its not common knowledge to know a spell.

My group plays enchantments as followed-if they fail the save, the enchantment(charm or compulsion) magic overrides their noticing that a spell is causing the effect. If they pass(and with any passed will save) they felt something try to affect them, and how they read that is up to them. It does not make these spells useless, but you can't just cast blindly to random NPC's.

There are some feats to slight of hand spells, or bards to make them seem like a performance etc. if you wanna go that route.

Alternatively, roleplay the casting of a spell. If you walk up to an NPC, stop, then wave your hands and say the words, its pretty obvious. However, if you sit down at the bar with the NPC, have a pint or two and cast by raising your glass and saying "cheers" it might come off a bit more subtle. Talk with your DM to see how they want to play it.

[DarkHarlequinn7]

My group plays enchantments as followed-if they fail the save, the enchantment(charm or compulsion) magic overrides their noticing that a spell is causing the effect. If they pass(and with any passed will save) they felt something try to affect them, and how they read that is up to them. It does not make these spells useless, but you can't just cast blindly to random NPC's.


I am technically the DM of this particular campaign, I was mainly fishing for ideas and this gave me a stroke of inspiration. I think I will make it so the spell makes them briefly forget/not think anything of the fact that they just saw your hands being wavy and you speaking draconic suddenly. Thanks.

[Psyren]

The thing is, you didn't suddenly start liking them more. You always liked them. And would your bestest buddy in the world cast a charm spell on you?

Basically that - however, if they have spellcraft and ID what you're doing before the spell goes off, I would give them the +5 save bonus vs. hostile action.

[Red Fel]

The thing is, you didn't suddenly start liking them more. You always liked them. And would your bestest buddy in the world cast a charm spell on you?

I was going to say this. (Seriously, Kele, Warforged ninja much?) Basically, they have suddenly and retroactively developed a fondness for you. If they can't identify that you were casting a spell, they assume you were just acting silly. If they can, they'll likely assume that either (a) you were casting a spell on someone/something else, or (b) whatever you were doing fizzled. Either way, they will assume you didn't cast something on them - because, as Kele points out, why would you?

[mvpmack]

Charm Person doesn't make the victim forget the spell was cast. Therefore, assuming a spellcraft check was not made or failed to identify the spell, the caster must explain what he was casting. However, there are plenty of benign spells (detect magic, detect evil, and so on) that would not trigger suspicion in the victim to use as explanation. If a spellcraft check was made and was successful, the person will know a charm person spell was cast. It's up to the caster to explain away that situation, but the charmed person is friendly towards the caster, and wants to believe the caster was acting in his or her best interests. Therefore it shouldn't be too hard to explain that the charmed person needed to be charmed for whatever reason, but it's ok.

Additionally, if the Will save to resist the charm was successful, the victim knows he was subject to a Will save effect. If the victim can identify the spell as well (or if one of his other friends can), the victim is likely to turn hostile towards the caster or at the very least, go down in disposition and demand an explanation.

Charm Person does not alter memories; the caster is not suddenly the victim's best friend. The caster is simply a person the victim likes (a lot), and the reason doesn't need to be explained. Even if the victim knows he's charmed, the victim believes that the caster is a person worthy of being liked, makes good decisions, and so on, so explaining why the charm was necessary shouldn't be too difficult.

[Elder_Basilisk]

What MVPack said. OTOH, in my games, if you start casting a spell in normal conversation, roll for initiative. Nobody is going to be OK with spellcasting in their vicinity unless they trust you, know what it is (or at least what you told them the spell is), and asked for it.

Being charmed is in the vicinity of being fireballed on most peoples' lists of things to do. So, if you win initiative (or manage to/have an ally successfully distract them and get a surprise round) and charm your victim before they can react, there's no combat, but if they see you starting the spell, they're going to cast one of their own, pull a sword, grapple you, or run away.

[Darth Ultron]

So I can't help but notice something really odd about the Charm Person/Monster etc. spells. They all have verbal and somatic components, which means that if you use them in conversation, the person you are talking to can very clearly see and hear you casting a spell, and then suddenly they start to like you more. I would think that if that person has an intelligence higher than 4 they would be able to figure out what just happened. Is there something I am missing here? Or did those spells just get a lot more useless?

So why would you say a person would very clearly see and hear you casting a spell? How do they get that super clarity? Are you thinking:

NPC: "Well thank you for meeting with me'' as he sits at the table
PC: "Yes, thank you as well." sits at the table
NPC: "So what did you want to see me about?"
PC: "I need you to open the vault of sages corum-de lalala umaroe zoupuill'' and moves his hands around in a complex figure eight pattern.
NPC: "You just cast a spell on me! "

First, you might want to get the idea of two people sitting like five inches from each other and watching each other like hawks out of your mind. Try to think of a more normal conversation. And think of how that would work. Remember the caster only needs like ten seconds.

Second, a caster is going to cast the spell at a good moment......like when the target is not looking or is distracted. And even the old ''hey that picture on the wall is crooked'' works, as does breaking something like a vase.

Third, it's not like the whole world has spellcraft.

Remember that charm type spells have a range of at least 25 feet. So the caster does not need to be within five feet to cast the spell. The caster could be alone in a room, looking out a window at the target from thirty feet away no problem.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Remember that charm type spells have a range of at least 25 feet. So the caster does not need to be within five feet to cast the spell. The caster could be alone in a room, looking out a window at the target from thirty feet away no problem.

As long as the window is open and at least 1'x1' (otherwise, no line of effect), and there is no-one else in the room who might worry that the spell is aimed at them....

It's not too hard to circumvent people noticing the charm, but the detectability of spellcasting does limit the circumstances in which you can use charms to their utmost effect.