anyone play with the spell point variant?

[Rfkannen]

How is it?

[Grand Warchief]

The Paladins in my campaign love it. they've both multiclassed with full spell casters and have spell slots higher than 4tH. The spell point variant allows them to turn those higher spell slots into more max level smites much easier. The full casters in the game don't feel much from it, although it does allow them to cast a butt ton more first level spells by effectively "splitting" their higher level spell slots.

[pwykersotz]

I haven't actually played with it yet, but I've run the numbers on it, and it appears to be very well balanced this edition. While you can stretch out your lower level spells or burst with your higher ones, you can't trick the system into giving you an inordinate amount of extra power like you could in previous editions. I assume it was easier to balance in 5e due to the similar casting progression across all classes.

[silveralen]

It gives them more flexibility, which means there are likely at least a few ways to exploit it.

The mitigating factor is that they pay for this flexbility with a touch fewer spells per day if my math is right (it might not be).

I haven't run it yet but I'm considering it.

[pwykersotz]

It gives them more flexibility, which means there are likely at least a few ways to exploit it.

The mitigating factor is that they pay for this flexbility with a touch fewer spells per day if my math is right (it might not be).

I haven't run it yet but I'm considering it.

They get identical spells per day if they cast with equivalent levels. It's the same system with, as you pointed out, more flexibility for spells between 1st and 6th level.

Edit: To clarify, this is what I remember calculating. I only did it once and I mainly focused on the Paladin at low levels. If anyone wants to double check me, please do so.

[Giant2005]

They get identical spells per day if they cast with equivalent levels. It's the same system with, as you pointed out, more flexibility for spells between 1st and 6th level.

Edit: To clarify, this is what I remember calculating. I only did it once and I mainly focused on the Paladin at low levels. If anyone wants to double check me, please do so.

No you are right, it is the exact same spells per day (Unless you spend all of your points on low level spell slots or high level spell slots).
The spell point variant really is great and clearly superior to the standard. I can't imagine hearing anyone complain about it - imo the only reason it isn't the default is for the sake of nostalgia.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Warlocks might complain about it considering it doesn't work for them. If they are balanced with the other casters, then introducing Spell Points would put the other casters above the Warlock.

[silveralen]

Ah, I did it in a hurry just now so I thought it might be a math error.

In that case it is strictly more powerful, most notably at high levels when 1st and 2nd level slots have basically become subordinate to cantrips the majority of the time, or of the same rough power.

Paladin MC would also love it I imagine. Being able to break those 5th+ level slots into smaller versions to get around the smite damage cap.

[Giant2005]

Paladin MC would also love it I imagine. Being able to break those 5th+ level slots into smaller versions to get around the smite damage cap.
IMO, Paladins really do love it more than any other character. As long as they stick to level 1 Smites, they can smite all day - especially if they have a few full caster levels in there too.

[EvanescentHero]

I'm interested in the spell point variant, as it seems a lot simpler and more versatile. I'd definitely let my players use it in a campaign. However, the only full caster in my party is a warlock, which I believe the rules say to be careful with. I also have a paladin, a ranger, and an arcane trickster. Maybe in another campaign I'll allow it from the start, but I don't like the idea of swapping now.

[pwykersotz]

IMO, Paladins really do love it more than any other character. As long as they stick to level 1 Smites, they can smite all day - especially if they have a few full caster levels in there too.

True, they can reliably smite, but keep in mind that there's no benefit to using lower level smites over the higher level ones. A first level spell is 2 points. A second level is 3 points. This means that the 2d8 for a first level slot and the 3d8 for a second level slot are equivalent value point-for-point. It's just how bursty you want to be.

There is an advantage to using second level spells over third level, as there the point value jumps by 2 and the d8 still only increases by 1, but it's very minor considering that trick only comes online at level 9 and has very limited scope given the limited number of spells the Paladin gets. Even at high levels, you're only getting a few extra d8 out of the deal, and you lose burst that way which is situationally more valuable.

Edit: Though I suppose a Paladin multiclassed with a full caster would enjoy it more.

[Giant2005]

True, they can reliably smite, but keep in mind that there's no benefit to using lower level smites over the higher level ones. A first level spell is 2 points. A second level is 3 points. This means that the 2d8 for a first level slot and the 3d8 for a second level slot are equivalent value point-for-point. It's just how bursty you want to be.

There is an advantage to using second level spells over third level, as there the point value jumps by 2 and the d8 still only increases by 1, but it's very minor considering that trick only comes online at level 9 and has very limited scope given the limited number of spells the Paladin gets. Even at high levels, you're only getting a few extra d8 out of the deal, and you lose burst that way which is situationally more valuable.

Edit: Though I suppose a Paladin multiclassed with a full caster would enjoy it more.

Yeah I wasn't really talking about the ecnomy of it, more the fact that by spending few spell points, they can do it more and possibly (probably?) have enough to do it all day long. Everything you said is right though - level 2 Smites are just as cost efficient as level one and if you can afford the points and are fighting something strong enoguh that the damage wouldn't be overkill, then it is the better option.

[calebrus]

No you are right, it is the exact same spells per day (Unless you spend all of your points on low level spell slots or high level spell slots).

It is, and it isn't.
It gives the points to make the exact same slots.
However, with the SP variant, you are only allowed to make a single slot of 6th and above, while a non-SP variant full caster gets two 6th and two 7th level slots.
So while the math adds up, you cannot get the same slots.
It gives them a LOT more versatility, at the cost of a little bit of their power (concerning high level spells).

We use the SP variant, and it works. Paladins LOVE it (because 1st and 2nd level slots give them the most bang for their buck, which means they can actually do more smite damage over the course of the day by using more, but lower level, smites. Everyone else likes the versatility it offers, even at the cost of a 6th and a 7th level slot.

[NotVeryBatman]

I'm having a hard time figuring out if this is any good for Rangers. It seems like the limited spells known makes the feature least useful to this kind of caster.

[Naanomi]

I don't have my DMG in front of me, but what do Sorcerers get to make up for having the ability to shuffle spell levels around given to everyone?

Also, how do Necromaners end up looking when they can pour every spell level into Animate Dead?

[bloodshed343]

I don't have my DMG in front of me, but what do Sorcerers get to make up for having the ability to shuffle spell levels around given to everyone?

Also, how do Necromaners end up looking when they can pour every spell level into Animate Dead?

I can answer that second question: extremely op.

Edit: by that I mean specifically that they LOOK op with enough skeletons to flesh (ha!) out a low level dungeon.

Also, I like to refluff the skeletons as giant mechanical squirrels.

[pwykersotz]

I don't have my DMG in front of me, but what do Sorcerers get to make up for having the ability to shuffle spell levels around given to everyone?

Also, how do Necromaners end up looking when they can pour every spell level into Animate Dead?

Forgive the slightly less than complete math below, I'm avoiding posting explicit worth of spell points.

Necromancers come out ahead by about 21% with Spell Points, apparently. If they dump everything and calculating at level 20, that is. By using mostly 5th level spells, they get a ratio of 1 skeleton per spell point. That increases slightly for 7th and higher level spells. The advantage actually appears to lessen the higher the levels.

With slots, using every 3rd-9th level slot at 20th level, Necromancers can raise 113 skeletons.
3 3rd - 9 skeletons
3 4th - 15 skeletons
3 5th - 21 skeletons
2 6th - 18 skeletons
2 7th - 22 skeletons
1 8th - 13 skeletons
1 9th - 15 skeletons

With points, using every one possible at 20th level, Necromancers can raise 137 skeletons.
9th level - 15 skeletons (1 cast)
8th level - 13 skeletons (1 cast)
7th level - 11 skeletons (1 cast)
5th level - 98 skeletons (14 castings)

At 10th level -
Slots: 38 skeletons
Points: 63 skeletons