If there was gestalt, what would be the best combinations?

[Rfkannen]

I was thinking about it, I have heard of gestalt being homebrewed and thought it sounded cool. So what do you think, if gestalt was homebrewed in what would be the best combinations and what would be the worst?

[Rad Mage]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is gestalt and how is it different from multiclassing?

[Sullivan]

Had to google it for this context, but I think it's this http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

[Rfkannen]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is gestalt and how is it different from multiclassing?

In gestalt when you level up you pick two classes. You pick the better spellcasting, hit points, skills, proficiencies. You get all class features other than those.

[Rad Mage]

Thanks for the clarification. That sounds pretty interesting.

I can see Fighter and Barbarian working together really well. Rage plus 4 attacks a round is pretty appealing.

[Xetheral]

A lot will depend on how you set up the gestalt rules. For example, do you get Feats/ASIs from both sides of the progression? Or just one?

In the former case, MAD and feat-starved combos will benefit the most from gestalt. In the latter case, SAD combos will benefit the most.

[-Jynx-]

Fighter/[insert melee] works well just for action surge/feats combined with ranger, monk, paladin, rouge etc.

Warlock/Sorc would work well between invocations and metamagic feats you'd have lots of powerful options.

[AvatarVecna]

I imagine that it would heavily depend on what the gestalt rules would be, at least in regards to how proficiency and spellcasting works. Would all dual casters base their spellcasting on the multiclassed spellcaster chart, get both sides casting, or something else? Could you use slots from one side to cast spells on the other side, like you could in multiclassing? Would you have to know a spell on a particular side to cast it, or could you cast it even though you only know it from the other side? On proficiency, do you just get all of both sides proficiencies, a side of your choice, or just an upgrade (like an extra skill/save proficiency)?

Ultimately, when all we know for sure is that you'd get the class abilities of both sides, here's some pretty good combos IMO (note that I've left out my ideas for awesome spellcasters because of how unsure I am about how spellcasting would work):

1. Monk (Way of Shadow)//Rogue (Any)
--Total stealth master, and a real killer to boot. This is how you ninja.
----The only thing you have to work your way around is that you can't technically SA with unarmed strike. Either get your DM to houserule or find a way to use a different weapon as often as possible (like a monk weapon you can actually SA with that uses your Martial Arts damage die once it gets big).

2. Barbarian (any)//Paladin (any Oath except Protection)
--Righteous fury, anyone? Seriously, this combo works way better than it has any right to. The combination of offense and defense both bring to the table combine well: Cha to all saves, resistance to weapon damage (or all non-psychic damage), Unarmored Defense...it's all wonderful.
----...assuming you got some good rolls or some high point-buy. The one real downside to this build is that it's MAD as hell, and not in the way most barbarians would like. About the only attribute you can really skimp on is Int, which was a given anyway, but after that is Dex and Wis, which I personally wouldn't like to completely dump on a build like this.

3. Monk (any)//Ranger (Hunter)
--This build's advantage is combining classes that are dependent on the same two stats and have good ability synergy to boot; you'll have a strong offense, a solid defense, some decent out-of-combat utility, lots of mobility, and ki points to get you out of a jam. As already mentioned, this is about as non-MAD as a gestalt built gets (outside of some cheesy, SAD caster combo).

4. Fighter (Eldritch Knight)//Wizard (any)
--Do you like gishing? Of course you do! Casting in full plate without having to spend feats is awesome; getting to attack after casting spells is awesome; Fighter/Wizards are awesome.
----Lots of people think the Int stat is the least useful, and it's your main focus. It's possible that Bard (Valor)//{Sorcerer or Warlock (any)} would be decent at this, too, but I'm a sucker for a classic combo.

[Rfkannen]

I always liked the idea of a bard/rogue. How do you think that would be?

[AvatarVecna]

I always liked the idea of a bard/rogue. How do you think that would be?

It would depend on the build in question. Bard (Valor)//Rogue (Assassin) could be pretty neat, as could Bard (Lore)//Rogue (any). Past a certain point, though, the Lore Bard//Rogue has way more skills with proficiency and expertise than is probably necessary. I will say this though: it would be an awesome combo for a solo game; combining two jack-of-all-trades classes together lets get away with solo-ing more often than a more focused build, especially if you take advantage of your inherent superiority in the social skillmonkey department.

[Myzz]

I'm toying with this as a campaign idea...

Everyone would be required to have a full caster Class of either Wizard, Cleric, or Druid... And then would gestalt into any other non full caster class OR - a sorcerer variant that I'm homebrewing.

The idea being that the culture the PC's would hail from would be at UBER Magic, housewives use magic to do everything... AND where magic isnt used, some form of Technology (aka magic) would be utilized. The various heads of the wizarding academies run the government as Oligarchs...

Anyone that doesnt show magical inclinations by the age of 10 are kicked off the island and sent to boarding school, where they eventually run away and become members of the non magical societies on the mainland.

I'd also limit the party make up to 1 cleric and 1 druid max...

Do note that Bard's are being shafted... mostly because I don't like bards as full casters...

I'd allow PC's to pick up various class or subclass abilities as Feats or partial feats... Example = EK War Magic

But that would be the NEXT campaign in that world. Will have to finish up the one they are on now.

<edit Add: so in context of the my gestalt rules I'd think a Wizard/Sorcerer or a Wizard/BattleMaster would be King>

[Submortimer]

Warlock / Paladin
- Main stat Charisma, use those Pact magic slots to 5th level smite all day long, Greatsword attacks that do 2d6+10+1d6+1d8...lots to love here.
Paladin/Sorcerer
- Must the same as above, except more dragon. Paladin of Bahamut? Paladin of Bahamut.
Warlock/Sorcerer
- Do you want unlimited spell points? This is how you get unlimited spell points. Also, Quickend Casting Eldritch blast cannot be overstated. And you get, like, 40 cantrips.
Barbarian/Druid
- Step 1: Turn into an Earth elemental. Step 2: Rage, Bear Totem Style. Step 3: Win.
Warlock/Wizard
- This requires a bit of MAD, but here are 4 words that make everything worthwhile: Free Overcharge Eldritch Blast. 4d10+40 damage? Nah, thanks bro, I'll just do 80 every round and call it a day.
Fighter/Warlock
- 8 Attacks that deal 2d6+10+1d6 per shot? Yes please.
Wizard/Cleric
- Do all the things. All of them.
Druid/Wizard
- Same as above, except you're also a dinosaur.

[Myzz]

Gestalting with rules as closely written as possible (same caster slot progression as MC) I'd think Warlock/Sorcerer (or wizard) would be saweeet!

Bard/Sorc
Monk/Assassin
Barbarian/Battlemaster
Paladin/Battlemaster
Paladin/Barbarian
Trickster Cleric/any caster (I think Invoke Duplicity is that good)

would all be decent choices and as SAD as possible

Gestalting as a Wizard would be nice cuz then you could take Diviner to 20 without having to be stuck being just a Diviner the whole time!


IF you let each class get spell progression individually (and the slots that come with it) then any double caster class becomes quite awesome!

[eastmabl]

What about a Bardadin (Bard/Paladin)? You get some solid synergy from the primary stats being Charisma, and a War College bard would/should have Str and Con as a secondary stat.

Standing alone, Bard is the most flexible and one of the more powerful classes in the game. You get skill expertise and the ability to add half your bonus to your untrained skills, making you the best skilled player in the game.

Stack on top of that the Paladin, who has ridiculous saving throws and whose smiting system is powered by sacrificing spells. Getting 9 levels of spellcasting gets you more spells, which means more smiting to be had.

[rollingForInit]

Standing alone, Bard is the most flexible and one of the more powerful classes in the game. You get skill expertise and the ability to add half your bonus to your untrained skills, making you the best skilled player in the game.

What about a Bard/Rogue? Proficiency in at least 7 skills (10 if Lore), plus what you get from backgrounds and races. Expertise in 8 of them. If you go Valor bard, you get more attacks for chance at triggering sneak attack, and you can cast something like Faerie Fire to guarantee advantage, invisibility, etc.

[AvatarVecna]

What about a Bard/Rogue? Proficiency in at least 7 skills (10 if Lore), plus what you get from backgrounds and races. Expertise in 8 of them. If you go Valor bard, you get more attacks for chance at triggering sneak attack, and you can cast something like Faerie Fire to guarantee advantage, invisibility, etc.

Look further up-thread.

EDIT: and your proficiency math is only accurate if you get all proficiencies of both classes, which at the very least is exactly how it didn't work in 3.5, where gestalt originated. Still, a Bard//Rogue would be an awesome skillmonkey regardless of how 5e handled gestalt.

[Xetheral]

Since warlock cast spells without having the "spellcasting" feature, you're likely to see a lot of Fullcaster//Warlock builds. This would be the only way to get 2 ninth level slots per day.

Combined with Sorcerer shenanigans we get:

Bard (Lore) 19 /Sorcerer 1[4]//Sorcerer 3/Warlock (Tome) 17

Go pure CHA for nigh-unlimited metamagic off the bard list (and secrets), 2x 9ths per day, all rituals, and no missing ASIs.

For a more martially oriented character consider:

Fighter (BM) 12/Ranger (Hunter: Horde Breaker) 4/Warlock 4 [12]//Paladin (Ancients) 4/Warlock (Fiend/Blade) 8/Paladin 8 [12]

Go STR/CHA for 3-4 attacks (without bonus actions) at around 2d8+12 each before feats or magic items or smites. No missing ASIs.

(Alternately go pure CHA with Tomelock [Shillelagh] for 5 less damage per hit, but less MADness.)

(And/Or, for the cost of 3 ASIs, substitute Sorcerer 3 for nigh-unlimited smiting.)

[Rfkannen]

Seen barbarian paladin mentioned, how would that work? Sounds like cool fluff but I don't particularly see how you build a decent one, seems like you would be to mad, con, dex, streangth, charisma. Whats the theroy behind it? Suppose it would be a good tank, but not sure how


Warlock anything I could see causing trouble because of there spellcasting, not sure how that would work

What do you think is the best gestalt healer?

[Shining Wrath]

The usual path to greatness in gestalt is to have one class that is "passive", one that is "active". You want a class that has lots of good stuff that operates without using actions (or, perhaps, persist for several rounds off a single action), and one class that has highly effective actions.

I think a Paladin as the passive class (auras) and a Sorcerer for the active class (NUKE THEM UNTIL THEY GLOW), with the charisma synergy, might be effective.

[AvatarVecna]

Seen barbarian paladin mentioned, how would that work? Sounds like cool fluff but I don't particularly see how you build a decent one, seems like you would be to mad, con, dex, streangth, charisma. Whats the theroy behind it? Suppose it would be a good tank, but not sure how

The two classes have decent synergy between their class abilities, but you'd have to be very careful with such a build, because of how MAD it is. If you only get two saves, but you got two of your choice, I'd probably choose Con and Cha; if you got three, throw Str into the mix. Barbarians with a good Con have an AC comparable to other melee characters, allowing Dex to be lower than normal.

Ultimately, the advantage of the Barbarian//Paladin is that it has enough offense-/defense- oriented class abilities that, when combined, make for a very capable combatant: combine the rage (damage resistance), Cha mod to all saves, and a decent method of self-healing (Lay on Hands), and the defensive abilities become clear; combine the rage (damage bonus), smiting, spellcasting, and fighting style, and the offensive abilities become clear. Ultimately, it's what a gestalt tank looks like (without very powerful casting, obviously).

As mentioned, the build can be very MAD, but even the standard point-buy makes it workable enough; if you used the following array, with the Variant Human race, it's a pretty decent build:

14/12/15/8/10/13

Put your bonuses in Con and Cha, and it ends up working out fairly well: you start at 1st level with a feat, AC 14 (16 with a shield, since barbs can use shields with their Unarmored Defense), 15 HP, Lay on Hands, and Rage. 2nd level brings tons of benefits, as does every level for the next several. The next big checkpoint is level 6: at this point, you've got an extra attack, spellcasting, more healing, advantage on attacks whenever you want it, another feat (or two, depending on how you do gestalt), resistance to all non-psychic damage while raging, a big rage damage bonus, and you're adding your Cha mod to all your saves, making up for your lower stats that you're no proficient in.

[MrStabby]

Thinking purely from a close combat perspective...

Depending on DM Fiat regarding interactions between abilities Moon Druid could be a good combination with a number of classes. Monk stacked with moon druid for armour class, martial arts (with full KI) and lots of other cool abilities but with no loss of the awesome physical stats and abilities of the beasts available to the druid.

Fighter/Bladelock could be a bit of a close combat monster. No worry about MAD with all those ASIs, lots of support abilities from your invocations... full armour proficiency, fighting style, ultimately four attacks. Temp hitpoints for defense, cha bonus to damage on many attacks.

Fighter Generally seems stronger as a combat class - combined with monk for example the MAD issues disappear.

Personally though I think the most fun class might be Lore Bard/Fighter. Usual bonus form fighter yadda yadda yadda but with every best combat spell you could want to support the class. Lots of extra damage per attack, elemental weapons, a bunch of protective abilities.

Sorcerer Paladin, as mentioned, might be the "best" class. Smites + spell slots are nice but I think it is the sorcery points + paladin spells +sorcery bonuses that are pretty good. Adding 5 charisma to every attack when you cast elemental weapon is nice. Empowered Smites are pretty good; shame twinned spell doesn't work on things that target yourself.

[Giant2005]

Paladin/Fighter takes my vote, purely for the sake of obscene damage.

[Kane0]

lets see...

Bruiser: Warlock//Paladin
Blaster: Warlock//Sorcerer
Support: Warlock//Bard

Just imagine that party. They're pretty much one short rest away from full effectiveness.

Other cool choices:
Brute: Barbarian//Fighter
Gish: Fighter//Wizard
Theurge: Cleric or Druid//Bard or Wizard
Ninja: Monk//Rogue or Monk//Fighter
Archer: Ranger//Fighter

[HoarsHalberd]

Totem barbarian/champion fighter. 27 point buy + half orc means maxed con dex and str. Enough room for gwm
71% chance per round of at least one critical when you have advantage.
91% chance per nova of at least one critical.

Nova DMG assuming one critical at 20. 9*d12(58.5) +4*d12(26) + 63 + 36. 180.5

With an optional +90 from gwm if you feel the monster may have a low ac.

Combined with 22AC, minimum of half health, at will resistance to almost all damage as well as two fighting styles and a few other useful features, this gestalt would be a powerhouse of physical prowess.

[Giant2005]

Nova DMG assuming one critical at 20. 9*d12(58.5) +4*d12(26) + 63 + 36. 180.5

The Paladin version beats that without even including crits (Or any Fighter subclass features):
8*2D6 (56) + 8*D12 (52) + 40 + 40 = 188

[Xetheral]

Depending on DM Fiat regarding interactions between abilities Moon Druid could be a good combination with a number of classes. Monk stacked with moon druid for armour class, martial arts (with full KI) and lots of other cool abilities but with no loss of the awesome physical stats and abilities of the beasts available to the druid.

Don't forget Paladin... Smiting doesn't depend on the DM's interpretation and shores up the Moon Druid's weak damage. Also, for levels beyond Druid 18, adding Warlock solves most DPS concerns and gives a reliable ranged option.

It's interesting just how well Paladin and Warlock mesh with so many gestalt builds.

[Logosloki]

Any fullcaster and warlock. Get those extra 6-9th level spells.

[HoarsHalberd]

The Paladin version beats that without even including crits (Or any Fighter subclass features):
8*2D6 (56) + 8*D12 (52) + 40 + 40 = 188

You also have to factor in how much lower the chance to hit is. +5 vs + 7 and at will advantage is huge.

Also normal DPR isn't even close + 4d8 + 20 = +42 vs
+44 from rage and str. Beating out at will before the much higher crit chance and crit damage comes in. Also on most rounds the crit allows a bonus action attack for another 17.5 damage and another 27% chance to crit.

Edit: why don't you go the whole hog on the paladin nova, 16d6 + 16d6 + 8d8 + 40 = 197. Although that does involve blowing one of your 5th level spell slots. Heck you could even blow weaker slots to really up the Nova into insane levels.

Going BM would also be valuable for this build. Gives you plenty of bonus damage on the nova.
Fighter paladin is good for the nova. Fighter Barbarian is much better for prolonged days with multiple encounters per day. It can never start a fight below 50% health, has an insane health pool that means half of it will probably be more than most builds in numbers and can full nova more often to boot.

[Giant2005]

You also have to factor in how much lower the chance to hit is. +5 vs + 7 and at will advantage is huge.

Also normal DPR isn't even close + 4d8 + 20 = +42 vs
+44 from rage and str. Beating out at will before the much higher crit chance and crit damage comes in. Also on most rounds the crit allows a bonus action attack for another 17.5 damage and another 27% chance to crit.

It turns out I lied anyway - I was working from memory and got it wrong. I listed the Paladin's Smite as d12 when it should be the d8 you mentioned above.
Either way, the Barbarian's +8 damage (+6 from Rage, +2 from Str) per attack is less the Paladin's +1D8+5 (from smite and charisma) and the Paladin's damage comes online far earlier. The extra +2 to hit at level 20 might be relevant but it is far less relevant than the Paladin's benefits of Smites and Elemental Weapon.

[HoarsHalberd]

Fine, I'll include crits in my maths, didn't realise you were going to go all oathbreaker on me. (Kidding, I'm enjoying this.)

Average round
4.71*(1d12 + 11 +0.27*(5d12)) = 123.76

Vs

4.19*(2d6 +1d8 + 10 + 0.05(3d6 +1d8)) = 94.5

Assuming both half orcs with gwm but not using -5 +10.

EDIT: best possible nova for you is 333 odd before crit chance as an oathbreaker bm gestalt. Which admittedly is huge.

[Chronos]

I think fighter//paladin would probably be the strongest martial combination: Fighter gets the most attacks, and paladin is the only class that gets extra damage on all attacks. If you also allow normal multiclassing, then the paladin side should take a bit of monk and ranger after hitting 11, for Flurry of Blows and Hordebreaker.

Warlock would almost certainly be the pairing of choice for any full caster. Overchanneling Eldritch Blast won't work, since that's only for wizard spells, but metamagic would, and warlock would give you a lot more casting of your other class's spells. I'm inclined to say that the overall best caster would be a bard//warlock, with Lore and Tome.

Bard//rogue would be the ultimate skillmonkey, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile, as either one by itself is already pretty close to ultimate. You'd probably be better off just taking one, and pairing it with something else with different capabilities.

[silveralen]

Paladin/sorcerer for my money.

Both have a good collection of spells and abilities to cover most situations, your melee ability is exceptional thanks to the paladin base with additional buff spells and smites. Metamagic makes casting buffs/spells while fighting much more bearable as well. Think how much more bearable it is to keep bless up every combat when it only uses up your BA that turn.

You still have the other goodies from paladin like healing and auras meaning you can contribute more buffing to your party as well, as you can keep the aura's up in addition to your concentration spells.

Paladin/warlock is another solid choice. You lose out on metamagic goodness, but life drinker is nice and short rest smites help as well. Plus, if you allow extra attacks to stack, it nets you the same amount as anyone outside a fighter gestalt.

[Chronos]

Plus, if you allow extra attacks to stack...
Why would you do that?

[silveralen]

Why would you do that?

Because either way some combinations will be dramatically better than others. Same thing with spell slots. In no variation will all choices be balanced with one another so whether or not you allow it just changes which are the least/most balanced.

Warlock's value goes up a ton if you only gain highest spell casting progression as normal for multiclassing, as pact magic gets around that. Mixing two melee classes like paladin and barbarian is far less useful if extra attacks don't stack.

[HoarsHalberd]

Why would you do that?

Well it shifts the balance slightly in favour of the barbarian over the paladin for best martial.
2*(d12+11+0.27(5d12)) vs 2*(2d6+1d8+10+0.05(3d6))will bring the barbarian closer to the nova. (But is a drop in the ocean.)

But 1 of the attacks pushes the DPR of the barbarian further ahead.

287 average nova including crits is good, but tiny compared to
25d6 (all 4+5 spell slots) +10(2d6+1d8+10) +6d12 from battle master. = 342.5 before crits and 1st through third level slots.

115 at will damage for pally. Factoring in crits.
152 at will damage for barb. Factoring in crits.

Edit:mini nova, same as nova for barbarian. Action surge and one bm die only for paladin is 239.

[Ralanr]

I think the best martial combination would be Barbarian with any fighter except Eldrich knight.

First there are fighting styles, which barbarians don't get. Making greatswords and mauls even more useful in their hands for Great weapon fighting style and the dueling fighting style allows shield barbarians to be even more useful.

Action surge, danger sense, brutal critical (Champion combo best here), unarmored defense with a shield (or not), fast movement, up to 4 extra attacks, rage, all those feats. Hell if you rolled well enough for stats (or had high point buy) you could finish a build early game and focus the rest of the game on feats that seem pretty useful but not necessary. You could make him/her a skill monkey who always knows where north is. Heck you could make it so one character could use different combat builds based on the situation.

Yes paladins give smite, but anything combined with a fighter gives immense combat versatility. And I like barbarians, so I'm more inclined towards them.

[AvatarVecna]

I think the best martial combination would be Barbarian with any fighter except Eldrich knight.

First there are fighting styles, which barbarians don't get. Making greatswords and mauls even more useful in their hands for Great weapon fighting style and the dueling fighting style allows shield barbarians to be even more useful.

Action surge, danger sense, brutal critical (Champion combo best here), unarmored defense with a shield (or not), fast movement, up to 4 extra attacks, rage, all those feats. Hell if you rolled well enough for stats (or had high point buy) you could finish a build early game and focus the rest of the game on feats that seem pretty useful but not necessary. You could make him/her a skill monkey who always knows where north is. Heck you could make it so one character could use different combat builds based on the situation.

Yes paladins give smite, but anything combined with a fighter gives immense combat versatility. And I like barbarians, so I'm more inclined towards them.

If I was making a Barbarian//Fighter instead of a Barbarian//Paladin for the extra versatility, I'd at least go Battle Master instead of Champion: between rage bonuses, fighting styles, Brutal Critical, and tons of feats, you'll be doing plenty of damage, making Improved Critical less than necessary (although certainly still fairly useful); even worse, Rage (which grants advantage on Str checks) and Danger Sense Feral Instincts (which grants advantage on Init checks) already do most everything you'd want Remarkable Athlete for, unless you have reason to believe that very long jumps are going to heavily feature in your game (in which case, I advise you to just make an Athletics check with advantage from Rage). I can't imagine what second fighting style you'd want besides Great Weapon Fighting, and Superior Critical & Survivor, while being incredibly awesome, are generally too late-game to have a huge impact.

Like I said, I prefer Battle Master for the extra options it gives, at least on a combo like this.

[Ralanr]

If I was making a Barbarian//Fighter instead of a Barbarian//Paladin for the extra versatility, I'd at least go Battle Master instead of Champion: between rage bonuses, fighting styles, Brutal Critical, and tons of feats, you'll be doing plenty of damage, making Improved Critical less than necessary (although certainly still fairly useful); even worse, Rage (which grants advantage on Str checks) and Danger Sense (which grants advantage on Init checks) already do most everything you'd want Remarkable Athlete for, unless you have reason to believe that very long jumps are going to heavily feature in your game (in which case, I advise you to just make an Athletics check with advantage from Rage). I can't imagine what second fighting style you'd want besides Great Weapon Fighting, and Superior Critical & Survivor, while being incredibly awesome, are generally too late-game to have a huge impact.

Like I said, I prefer Battle Master for the extra options it gives, at least on a combo like this.

Fair enough...wait. Danger sense gives advantage on initiative? Where does it say that?

[AvatarVecna]

Fair enough...wait. Danger sense gives advantage on initiative? Where does it say that?

My apologies, it's Feral Instincts (lvl 7 ability) that grants advantage on Init, not Danger Sense. It still an ability that all Barbarians get, while Remarkable Athlete is only an ability that Champion Fighters get, so it makes more sense to not take the sub-class granting you abilities you already would get without choosing a sub-class. If you switched out of Barbarian before then, Champion Fighter would be more viable then...but I'd honestly be more likely to dip Fighter than dip Barbarian, both in gestalt and non-gestalt games.

[HoarsHalberd]

Remarkable athlete stacks with the advantage offered by the two abilities as it offers half proficiency. Making it more likely you'll get the initiative and str checks. The effect of remarkable athlete is fairly negligible but combines with the advantages to give a hefty boost. Whereas BM offers relatively little synergy. The improved critical along with the critical damage increases account for much more damage than the battle masters die. And the champion capstone is made much more effective by the barbarians much larger health pool (20*d12+7 = 270 average) whilst the actual minimal health healed per round (12) is made into an effective 24 by resistance to most damage types from bear totem 3. BM has much better synergy with Paladin for the unbelievable nova power and the ability to control the battle field much more effectively.

[AvatarVecna]

Remarkable athlete stacks with the advantage offered by the two abilities as it offers half proficiency. Making it more likely you'll get the initiative and str checks. The effect of remarkable athlete is fairly negligible but combines with the advantages to give a hefty boost. Whereas BM offers relatively little synergy. The improved critical along with the critical damage increases account for much more damage than the battle masters die. And the champion capstone is made much more effective by the barbarians much larger health pool (20*d12+7 = 270 average) whilst the actual minimal health healed per round (12) is made into an effective 24 by resistance to most damage types from bear totem 3. BM has much better synergy with Paladin for the unbelievable nova power and the ability to control the battle field much more effectively.

But when do you really need to do that much damage? A 3.5 Hulking Hurler can be optimized to deal enough damage to warrant writing it in scientific notation, but not even epic dragons with tons of template stacking will ever be able to survive such a hit, so every point of damage beyond what's necessary becomes rather pointless. Barbarian//Fighter (Battlemaster) still does tons of damage, but also has options other than straight damage. Beyond that, capstones come online far too late in a campaign to warrant basing your entire character around them.

Beyond that, I just find it more interesting. If you want a character that just presses the attack button and OTK every enemy they meet, Barbarian//Champion will do that. But I find Barbarian//Battlemaster to be capable enough in that department, while also having enough other options available to keep them interesting at the high levels.

[bloodshed343]

How exactly does one make such a hulking hurler?

[AvatarVecna]

How exactly does one make such a hulking hurler?

What, in 5e? You kinda don't. In 3.5? You take the "Hulking Hurler" Prestige Class.

[HoarsHalberd]

If you want options, you go paladin battlemaster or bladelock battle master. These two are supreme controllers. The former having a huge nova to boot.

And as for why you'd want to do that much damage. 130 damage a round isn't a ridiculous amount. It'll take out 1 equal level medium hp PC. The difference in damage between the battlemaster barb and the champion barb is enough to spare the party a round of fighting against a greater dragon or other CR20/above monster. Or the damage can be spread around to overwhelm and destroy more opponents. It is about specialisation. Between the initiative bonus, the 280 odd damage nova available and the movement speed bonus, it's about ending threats as swiftly as possible to protect your squishier allies. And if you're having one of those days that just won't end, with encounter after encounter coming with only the rare chance for a short rest (My party may have stirred up the hornet's nest in the castle during HOTDQ.) you can keep going for a lot longer.

And the build specialisation comes online from the very first level. Resistance boosts the impact of second wind and 15 AC is respectable for a first level whilst GWF is a very useful ability, 2nd level, action surge doubles the damage bonus of rage for the round. 3rd, the bear totem increases the effect of your high health and resistance but doesn't tie into the champion bonus which starts synergy at level 7. The two classes synergise very well for a powerhouse. The BM offers a jack of all trades approach that I feel is better served by another gestalt combo whereas the synergy from champion makes a very powerful specialist.

[Oscredwin]

So some basic Gestalt rules I would use:

*This replaces normal multiclassing rules
*You get all the weapon and armor proficiencies of both classes
*You get the higher of the two HP/level and HD
*You get the number of tool/skill proficiencies from the class which grants the most, but can choose from both classes options
*You only get one (1) ASI at any given level
*You get the fastest spellcasting progression of your two classes (eg. a Paladin/Sorc gets Sorc spell slots), but can prepare as each individual class
*the Extra attack class feature gained at level 5/6 doesn't stack with itself (or with the thirsting blade invocation)
(I think that's it)

Given that, I think the guidelines you'd want would be 1) Get spellcasting, 2) Be a fighter (for extra attacks and ASIs) or a Rogue (extra profs and ASI).

Good combos that jump out at me are Rogue/Ranger (lots of chances to land Sneak Attack), Fighter/Cleric(a melee domain), Paladin/Warlock(blade) for obvious reasons, Fighter/Bard (using all the bard tricks to steal the good ranger spells while having the fighter archer goodies), Trickery Cleric/Rogue, and Knowledge Cleric/Wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

-snip-

I'm well aware of how strong a Barbarian//Champion is; it's how I modeled the Hulk when I was building the Avengers in 5e; there's just no other way to do him justice, IMO. I just don't find it a very interesting combo, because I don't like having nothing to do but hit for tons of damage. And don't say "you've got a couple skills!", because you'll never be as good as a rogue or a bard halfway trying.

[Oscredwin]

Two more ideas:

Monk/Nature Cleric or Land Druid

Monk/Fighter (no casting, but soooooooo many attacks)

[HoarsHalberd]

I'm well aware of how strong a Barbarian//Champion is; it's how I modeled the Hulk when I was building the Avengers in 5e; there's just no other way to do him justice, IMO. I just don't find it a very interesting combo, because I don't like having nothing to do but hit for tons of damage. And don't say "you've got a couple skills!", because you'll never be as good as a rogue or a bard halfway trying.

I wasn't talking about how strong they are. I was pointing out how their damage was far from overkill, an argument you made against it.

As for the build, the chassis is amazingly powerful for a grappler build, it can also shove. It's the fastest, makes for a good party scout with its high dex, speed and con. It will be one point more effective than a 10 str rogue with expertised athletics and will only ever be four points less effective at athletics than a max str expertise. The build also has vital tanking ability, the advantage against the barbarian and disadvantage on nearby allies ensures all intelligent foes will feel obliged to attack the barbarian. Whilst I can understand you don't like not having anything to do but hit stuff (not that there aren't any options but there are less) a barbarian build is supposed to be specialised, and coming from a lot of MMO games I enjoy protecting people, and bearbarian is the best for that, and champion fighter ensures the best defensive options in the long run and gives good lasting staying power until then.

EDIT: I feel I should make some effort to get back on topic. Bladelock Paladin. The renewable spellslots really help the paladin nova. The CHA to damage isn't shabby. And the normal 1/2 caster slots help cast the non scaling warlock spells. 'Tis a match made in heaven. I'd recommend either dragonborn or variant human. You'll want polearm mastery to get that 1d4+10+1d8 damage. (15 if going oathbreaker.)

[Vogonjeltz]

I was thinking about it, I have heard of gestalt being homebrewed and thought it sounded cool. So what do you think, if gestalt was homebrewed in what would be the best combinations and what would be the worst?

Best: Fighter (Eldritch knight) + Wizard (diviner or abjurer)

Worst (because: pointless redundancy and non synergy): monk + moon Druid

[Xetheral]

Worst (because: pointless redundancy and non synergy): monk + moon Druid

Monk and Moon Druid work *great* together... just use unarmed damage and extra attack (with your own proficiency bonus!) rather than the beast's weapons and multiattack. You get the physical stats, HP buffer, and bonus action healing of the druid combined with the offense, defense, mobility, crowd control, and legendary-save-burning of the monk. It's a melee powerhouse.

Splash a couple levels of Barbarian for Rage and Reckless Attack (gaining double HP buffer for tough fights and at-will Advantage) and/or a couple levels of Paladin for Divine Smite (gaining a huge DPR/Nova boost) and it gets even better.

[Boverk]

Do you allow multiclassing?


If so champion fighter 20/(thief rogue 2 or 3 Open Hand monk 17 or 18) is pretty insane for versatility

If not, champion fighter 20, Open hand monk 20

Focus on Dex, Wis, Con

This gives you crazy amounts of movement, take the alert and mobility feats

this lets you:

move 130 to 140 feet attacking 4 times.

any person you attack can't make attacks of opportunity against you, whether you hit or not

if you have the ki to burn, you can stun them with stunning strike

or you can use your 65 to 70 movement to run up and attack someone 6 times

or you could use action surge and your crazy movement to run up and do the instant kill monk move Quivering Palm (you'd be very likely to hit, and you'll have a pretty good monk dc)

you are also proficient in all saving throws, get expertise in two skills, get a good assortment of skills, 2 fighting style, great crit range, etc etc

You're amazing at controlling the battlefield!

and if multiclassing is not allowed, the fighter monk is almost as good

[silveralen]

It just occurred to me how obscenely good a monk/paladin gestalts saves would be at higher levels. The extra attacks+paladin smites/lvl 11 feature also lead to pretty great damage.

Only problem is the incredible amounts of MAD.

[Chronos]

You could cut down the MAD a bit by focusing on Dex in place of Str. Unless we're assuming that the multiclassing ability-score requirements apply to gestalt? Though that'd still leave you wanting Dex, Cha, Wis, and Con.

[Naanomi]

Depending on how Warlock casting stacked with others, Warlock+Any Caster could be great (stack rather than replace ala multiclassing)

It would not be particularly strong but... A Hill Dwarf Dragon Sorcerer//Totem Barbarian with the Tough feat could have a *ton* of Hit Points! 19d12+232 at level 20... Between and 251-460 HP; 355.5 average; 364 by Adventure League systems