What exactly does dragonwrought do?

[Temennigru]

Races of the dragon gives a very vague description of what dragonwrought does, then gives me a table from which I presume I have to pick a heritage and an even vaguer description of what the heritage does. I also heard that dragonwrought kobolds can pick up dragon feats, but I have failed to find any.
I am very confused. Could somebody please point me in a direction to figure out what exactly dragonwrought does?

[Forrestfire]

Are you sure you're looking at the right place? My copy of Races of the Dragon (on p.100) is very clear about what the feat does. It makes you dragon-typed, and gives a +2 bonus to the applicable skill.

[Eloel]

The trick is, a Dragon of age Old or more can pick up Epic feats. A dragonwrought kobold is a Dragon.

[Milo v3]

Are you sure you're looking at the right place? My copy of Races of the Dragon (on p.100) is very clear about what the feat does. It makes you dragon-typed, and gives a +2 bonus to the applicable skill.

It also lets you grab wings after 1st level.

[Temennigru]

The trick is, a Dragon of age Old or more can pick up Epic feats. A dragonwrought kobold is a Dragon.

That's the cheese part. The DM would never allow it.
I want none-cheese dragon feats.


It also lets you grab wings after 1st level.

3rd*


Are you sure you're looking at the right place? My copy of Races of the Dragon (on p.100) is very clear about what the feat does. It makes you dragon-typed, and gives a +2 bonus to the applicable skill.

And what does being dragon-typed imply?

[Troacctid]

Dragonwrought kobolds also take no ability score penalties for aging, per Races of the Dragon p39. This is the most obvious cheese, allowing you to get +3 to all mental stats at LA +0 by playing a venerable dragonwrought kobold.

[Illven]

That's the cheese part. The DM would never allow it.
I want none-cheese dragon feats.



3rd*



And what does being dragon-typed imply?

Immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects.

[Temennigru]

Immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects.

Based on the table on page 103 I'm pretty sure that's not all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's the cheese part. The DM would never allow it.
I want none-cheese dragon feats.

The Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) adds quite a few features to kobolds, and it contains the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage which gives you +1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting at minimal cost. You can find the Draconic Rite of Passage in Races of the Dragon, page 43.

Check the Draconomicon, starting on page 66. There are some feats that require the dragon creature type, some of which are less useful to a kobold than others. For example, Improved Speed is quite good if you have two or more modes of movement. Rapidstrike and the improved version are a staple of the standard King of Smack build, though that typically uses an Elan for the Aberration creature type to qualify. This is also where it's stated that dragons of at least the old age category can take epic feats prior to their 21st class level.

There are also the sovereign archetypes in Dragons of Eberron starting on page 30, which often provide benefits and drawbacks when a typical true dragon takes one, but certain ones have no drawback at all for a dragonwrought kobold, such as Loredrake. Note that it does not specify that only true dragons can take them, and even if it did, by the most recent definition is in Dragon Magic page 87, and a Dragonwrought Kobold has the dragon type and uses the twelve age categories, so either way you look at it, they qualify by RAW.

There are also dragon psychoses in Dragon issue 313 starting on page 74, each of which has an accompanying template, some of which (Spellhoarding, Riddled) have more benefits than drawbacks. All are acquired templates with a related mental illness which is curable, and the role playing implications of each combined with the drawbacks is sufficient to keep them all free of level adjustment.

Then you have the Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) from Unearthed Arcana, which doesn't have a Con penalty.

It really depends on what you would consider cheese. For example, Spellhoarding replaces your Sorcerer spellcasting with Wizard casting of equal level, and any improvements to your Sorcerer spellcasting instead improve your Wizard spellcasting. You can take Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) and combine it with Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage, and use Spellhoarding to replace your severely nerfed Sorcerer spellcasting with un-nerfed Wizard spellcasting of equal level. You can use the Loredrake sovereign archetype to get +2 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting for no drawback, which becomes +2 levels of Wizard spellcasting. You can use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for another +1 level of spellcasting which goes toward Wizard. You can even take one level of Wizard to specialize in a school of magic, and use your Draconic Rite of Passage to get a spell-like ability from a prohibited school, such as Charm Person to qualify for a Mindbender dip even with Enchantment prohibited. A Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1 can cast spells as a 9th level Wizard, and still has all the benefits of Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, apart from the armored casting. Spellhoarding dragons write their spells on their scales, so there's no risk in losing your spellbook.

As another example, a Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness) twice has 72 hp, AC 19 (chain shirt), SR 16, DR 5/Bludgeoning, a paralyzing gaze, gets three attacks per round each of which causes paralysis, and is only CR 1.

[Arael666]

The Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) adds quite a few features to kobolds, and it contains the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage which gives you +1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting at minimal cost. You can find the Draconic Rite of Passage in Races of the Dragon, page 43.

Check the Draconomicon, starting on page 66. There are some feats that require the dragon creature type, some of which are less useful to a kobold than others. For example, Improved Speed is quite good if you have two or more modes of movement. Rapidstrike and the improved version are a staple of the standard King of Smack build, though that typically uses an Elan for the Aberration creature type to qualify. This is also where it's stated that dragons of at least the old age category can take epic feats prior to their 21st class level.

There are also the sovereign archetypes in Dragons of Eberron starting on page 30, which often provide benefits and drawbacks when a typical true dragon takes one, but certain ones have no drawback at all for a dragonwrought kobold, such as Loredrake. Note that it does not specify that only true dragons can take them, and even if it did, by the most recent definition is in Dragon Magic page 87, and a Dragonwrought Kobold has the dragon type and uses the twelve age categories, so either way you look at it, they qualify by RAW.

There are also dragon psychoses in Dragon issue 313 starting on page 74, each of which has an accompanying template, some of which (Spellhoarding, Riddled) have more benefits than drawbacks. All are acquired templates with a related mental illness which is curable, and the role playing implications of each combined with the drawbacks is sufficient to keep them all free of level adjustment.

Then you have the Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) from Unearthed Arcana, which doesn't have a Con penalty.

It really depends on what you would consider cheese. For example, Spellhoarding replaces your Sorcerer spellcasting with Wizard casting of equal level, and any improvements to your Sorcerer spellcasting instead improve your Wizard spellcasting. You can take Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) and combine it with Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage, and use Spellhoarding to replace your severely nerfed Sorcerer spellcasting with un-nerfed Wizard spellcasting of equal level. You can use the Loredrake sovereign archetype to get +2 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting for no drawback, which becomes +2 levels of Wizard spellcasting. You can use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for another +1 level of spellcasting which goes toward Wizard. You can even take one level of Wizard to specialize in a school of magic, and use your Draconic Rite of Passage to get a spell-like ability from a prohibited school, such as Charm Person to qualify for a Mindbender dip even with Enchantment prohibited. A Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1 can cast spells as a 9th level Wizard, and still has all the benefits of Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, apart from the armored casting. Spellhoarding dragons write their spells on their scales, so there's no risk in losing your spellbook.

As another example, a Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness) twice has 72 hp, AC 19 (chain shirt), SR 16, DR 5/Bludgeoning, a paralyzing gaze, gets three attacks per round each of which causes paralysis, and is only CR 1.

Sovereign Archetypes are available for true dragons only

[Milo v3]

Based on the table on page 103 I'm pretty sure that's not all.

That table is for the +2 to a skill you get based on your selected heritage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sovereign Archetypes are available for true dragons only

1. Where does it actually say that in the book they're from? I only see it saying dragons can take them.

2. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons, by the most current definition in Dragon Magic, which overrides previous definitions, and is actually in agreement with the most conclusive definition in the Draconomicon on page 4.

3. I already covered 1. and 2. in the post you quoted, so your comment was completely unnecessary and nothing short of an intentional derail. I will not discuss this any further, you can start a new thread for it if you feel the need to debate it.

[Dumbledore lives]

1. Where does it actually say that in the book they're from? I only see it saying dragons can take them.

2. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons, by the most current definition in Dragon Magic, which overrides previous definitions, and is actually in agreement with the most conclusive definition in the Draconomicon on page 4.

3. I already covered 1. and 2. in the post you quoted, so your comment was completely unnecessary and nothing short of an intentional derail. I will not discuss this any further, you can start a new thread for it if you feel the need to debate it.

Here is a relevant discussion. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/17144/is-a-dragonwrought-kobold-a-true-dragon) There was a thread on GiantitP that came to a similar conclusion, but it has always been a point of contention.

[Arael666]

1. Where does it actually say that in the book they're from? I only see it saying dragons can take them.

Sovereign Archetypes alter a True Dragon's normal casting, thus it can only be applied to True Dragons.
http://i.imgur.com/z0UgBTF.jpg


2. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons, by the most current definition in Dragon Magic, which overrides previous definitions, and is actually in agreement with the most conclusive definition in the Draconomicon on page 4.

I would like you to point whre this most recent discussion was taken, cause they must have missed a lot of things. The major one would be the fact that dragonwrought kobolds do not progress by age categories.


3. I already covered 1. and 2. in the post you quoted, so your comment was completely unnecessary and nothing short of an intentional derail. I will not discuss this any further, you can start a new thread for it if you feel the need to debate it.

Nice! you could've just said "I'm right, you're wrong and I won't listen to anything or anyone who says otherwise" from the get go.

[Milo v3]

I would like you to point whre this most recent discussion was taken, cause they must have missed a lot of things. The major one would be the fact that dragonwrought kobolds do not progress by age categories.
Dragonwrought kobolds do progress by true dragon age categories, all kobolds do, and dragonwrought kobolds specifically only gain the benefits of doing so.

[Arael666]

Dragonwrought kobolds do progress by true dragon age categories, all kobolds do, and dragonwrought kobolds specifically only gain the benefits of doing so.

Having age categories is completely different from advancing by age categories. I'm creating a new tread to discuss this and see if the information actually checks out, I'm trully baffled by this.

The tread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406063-Aparently-Kobolds-are-actually-True-Dragons-What-am-I-missing).

[Rubik]

Dragonwrought kobolds also take no ability score penalties for aging, per Races of the Dragon p39. This is the most obvious cheese, allowing you to get +3 to all mental stats at LA +0 by playing a venerable dragonwrought kobold.Given all the drawbacks of being a kobold, including their very poor physical stats, I don't think that's cheese so much as a balancing feature. Poor stats and one less feat for the benefits of being Dragonwrought seems merely pretty decent to me.

[Temennigru]

Dragonwrought kobold are not true dragons. The monster manual specifically says that dragon typed creatures are not true dragons.


The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic.

[Milo v3]

Dragonwrought kobold are not true dragons. The monster manual specifically says that dragon typed creatures are not true dragons.

Based on that most True Dragons aren't True Dragons.

[danzibr]

It's already been mentioned, but it increasing order of cheesiness...

1) Gives the Dragon type with its immunities, gives a bonus to a skill, no penalty from aging (0 cheese: intended).
2) Start at venerable for ``free'' +3 to mental stats (little cheese).
3) Qualify for epic feats if you're at least old (quite cheesy).
4) Take sovereign archetypes (stinky cheese).

I'm still not certain 3 and 4 actually work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19036313&postcount=68), but if they do work by RAW, man they're cheesy.

[Milo v3]

It's already been mentioned, but it increasing order of cheesiness...

1) Gives the Dragon type with its immunities, gives a bonus to a skill, no penalty from aging (0 cheese: intended).
2) Start at venerable for ``free'' +3 to mental stats (little cheese).
3) Qualify for epic feats if you're at least old (quite cheesy).
4) Take sovereign archetypes (stinky cheese).

I'm still not certain 3 and 4 actually work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19036313&postcount=68), but if they do work by RAW, man they're cheesy.

3 certainly does work (not sure about 4) since it has nothing to do with True Dragons. Still cheesy though.

[danzibr]

3 certainly does work (not sure about 4) since it has nothing to do with True Dragons. Still cheesy though.
Well yeah... that's what I'm still not convinced either way on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonwrought kobold are not true dragons. The monster manual specifically says that dragon typed creatures are not true dragons.

This thread says otherwise. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406063-Aparently-Dragonwrought-Kobolds-are-actually-True-Dragons-What-am-I-missing)

[Milo v3]

Well yeah... that's what I'm still not convinced either way on.

Why? It doesn't mention true dragons at all.

[danzibr]

Why? It doesn't mention true dragons at all.
Hoo boy.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19023767&postcount=17) is the most convincing post I've seen.

[Milo v3]

Hoo boy.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19023767&postcount=17) is the most convincing post I've seen.

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about @_@

I'm talking specifically about the epic feats thing, which doesn't have anything to do with whether dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, it's caused by them having the dragon type.

[Temennigru]

This thread says otherwise. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406063-Aparently-Dragonwrought-Kobolds-are-actually-True-Dragons-What-am-I-missing)

That thread is wrong.

The text of dragonwrought is


You are a dragonwrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype.

It only says your type becomes dragon. It doesn't say anything about you "counting as a dragon". And by any D&D ruling, having the dragon type does not make you count as being of the true dragon race.

[Eloel]

It only says your type becomes dragon. It doesn't say anything about you "counting as a dragon". And by any D&D ruling, having the dragon type does not make you count as being of the true dragon race.

Please read the thread and associated posts.

[Milo v3]

It only says your type becomes dragon. It doesn't say anything about you "counting as a dragon".

Umm... if your type is dragon, then you're a dragon, and if your a dragon then you count as a dragon. :smallconfused:

[Eloel]

Would a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold cease being a dragon?

Why does that make no sense?

[Temennigru]

Please read the thread and associated posts.

The post only reinforced what I think. If you want to stink your game with cheese, fine (but I hope the DM makes a meteor fall on your head). But don't try and cheat misinterpretations into everyone else's game.

The quote that everyone uses to try and cheat is this one:

a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).

But if you look on a broader scope:

CREATING A DRAGONPACT
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon). A true dragon can’t initiate this ceremony (though it can try to convince a sorcerer to do so), nor can it attempt to establish a dragonpact with another dragon.

You'll see that that text was in no way trying to define a true dragon. It was simply a reminder text. You will never convince me that reminder text can override previous definitions.

[danzibr]

Hoo boy.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19023767&postcount=17) is the most convincing post I've seen.


That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about @_@

I'm talking specifically about the epic feats thing, which doesn't have anything to do with whether dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, it's caused by them having the dragon type.
Oooooh. Yeah, that's right. Draconomicon, page 66. Dragon.

[atemu1234]

Dragonwrought kobold are not true dragons. The monster manual specifically says that dragon typed creatures are not true dragons.

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

[torrasque666]

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

As has been stated in the other Dragonwrought thread, Dragon Magic is not the primary source on Dragons, the Draconomicon is. Thus, Draconomicon takes precedence.

[atemu1234]

As has been stated in the other Dragonwrought thread, Dragon Magic is not the primary source on Dragons, the Draconomicon is. Thus, Draconomicon takes precedence.

That is "One of the Dragon books" in my head. I made no reference to Dragon Magic.

[torrasque666]

That is "One of the Dragon books" in my head. I made no reference to Dragon Magic.
Ah crap. I misread you. I thought you were referring to the Dragon Magic sentence that is used to try and define Dragonwrought Kobolds as True Dragons simply because they have the Twelve.

[atemu1234]

Ah crap. I misread you. I thought you were referring to the Dragon Magic sentence that is used to try and define Dragonwrought Kobolds as True Dragons simply because they have the Twelve.

Nah. However, I do use the twelve age categories thing for actual dragons not listed, like some of the ones printed in obscure sources.

[Eloel]

The issue with most narrow definitions of true dragon is that they do not allow for the new (and some old) dragons. A Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm) is missing most of the things that the dragonwrought kobold can be argued to be missing, though I haven't seen anyone claim it's not a true dragon. Thus, we have to ignore the rules that are not up to date or all-encompassing.

Also relevant is that Draconomicon claims all non-true dragons are lesser dragons, and lists every single one of them that it knows of. Dragonwrought Kobold is a dragon. It's not listed as true OR lesser. That doesn't default to lesser any more than it defaults to true.

[danzibr]

The issue with most narrow definitions of true dragon is that they do not allow for the new (and some old) dragons. A Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm) is missing most of the things that the dragonwrought kobold can be argued to be missing, though I haven't seen anyone claim it's not a true dragon. Thus, we have to ignore the rules that are not up to date or all-encompassing.

Also relevant is that Draconomicon claims all non-true dragons are lesser dragons, and lists every single one of them that it knows of. Dragonwrought Kobold is a dragon. It's not listed as true OR lesser. That doesn't default to lesser any more than it defaults to true.
Didn't RotD come out after Draconomicon though?

[Eloel]

Didn't RotD come out after Draconomicon though?

By about 3 years, yes.

[Temennigru]

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

It was not changed. People took a reminder text from "how to make a dragonmark" out of context and started treating it as absolute truth.

[GreyBlack]

How to determine if Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, by step:

Step 1. Check with your DM.
Step 2. Accept the DMs ruling and get on with your life. In my games, I would actually rule them to be true dragons, but that's just me.

[atemu1234]

How to determine if Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, by step:

Step 1. Check with your DM.
Step 2. Accept the DMs ruling and get on with your life. In my games, I would actually rule them to be true dragons, but that's just me.

Really? I wouldn't, because if they have the level of system mastery to go, "Alright, if I do this I can have access to epic feats at level 1." They have the system mastery to design something almost as powerful but without cheesing. Just my take.

[danzibr]

Really? I wouldn't, because if they have the level of system mastery to go, "Alright, if I do this I can have access to epic feats at level 1." They have the system mastery to design something almost as powerful but without cheesing. Just my take.
As pointed out earlier, the epic feat thing only requires Dragon type, so fer sher DWK's qualify.

It's the other cheese, the sovereign archetypes, that they need True Dragon for.

[atemu1234]

As pointed out earlier, the epic feat thing only requires Dragon type, so fer sher DWK's qualify.

It's the other cheese, the sovereign archetypes, that they need True Dragon for.

Also something I'd fiat on.

I'm not saying that as DM, I'd allow it. However, I do kind-of, sorta defend it as at least theoretically RAW.