sorcerer monk?

[Grand Warchief]

Do draconic resilience and unarmored defense stack? I would say yes because of the fluff behind them. One says you have tough skin, the other is often described as an inner peace allowing you to predict your enemies movements and anticipate attacks. I understand that it might be a little unbalanced mechanic wise, but it's really going to help a character concept I have.

I want to make a character that was born from and raised by a gold dragon (though didn't inherit all the characteristics required for dragonborn race) that has a little innate magical talent, but prefers to eight with his fists. He's going way of the four elements and will focus solely on the fire abilities. He's hotheaded and brash, always picking fights with people stronger than him because of his overconfidenc. He'll need the extra ac.

I just hope that it's not out of the realm of possibilities. I understand that my dm can rule it any way he wants, but I would like some ground to stand on to make the argument more convincing.

[Giant2005]

The multiclass rules in the PHB are pretty clear that they don't stack. More than that though, it isn't even mechanically or mathematically possible to combine them without essentially making up brand new rules - neither ability gives a bonus, they each change the Ac formula and without any interactivity between the forumulas they cannot be combined. To do so you would have to ignore one of the abilities and replace it with an ability that offers a bonus (In the case of the Monk you would erase their ability and offer a flat + Wismod to AC or in the Sorc's case, a flat +3 to AC).
You won't find any support for what you are asking on these forums, you are better off trying to convince your DM blind and hope that he is either very lenient or very unaware of the rules. Or just do what some of the players in my games do and don't say anything to the DM - just stack them anyway until caught out.

[silveralen]

Well, not much to do the rules are very clear in this situation. I can't really think of a good argument for this based on the rules.

Now, you could try an appeal to balance if you plan on taking more than a single level sorcerer, as the two classes don't synergize all that well at all. But for a single level of sorcerer an extra three AC is a bit much to be considered balanced. You do not need that extra AC regardless of how brash and impulsive your character might be, that's why it is explictly not allowed.

Personally I'd look for a different way to represent this (magic initiate feat with a human for example) rather than trying to convince him. If he knows the game well at all he will pick out its both not allowed and unbalanced pretty fast, and trying to sneak it past him is unlikely to work as those three points of AC are going to be very obvious in practice.

[Person_Man]

Your base AC options are:

Studded leather: 12 + Dex, requires Light Armor Proficiency
Mage Armor spell: 13 + Dex, requires 1st level spell (can be gained with Feat)
Sorcerer Draconic Resilience: 13 + Dex
Breastplate: 16, requires Dex 14 and Medium Armor Proficiency
Halfplate: 17, requires Dex 14 and Medium Armor Proficiency, imposes Disadvantage on Stealth
Plate: 18, requires Heavy Armor Proficiency, imposes Disadvantage on Stealth
Monk Unarmored Defense: 10 + Wis + Dex
Barbarian Unarmored Defense:: 10 + Con + Dex


None of those things add to your AC. The formulas overlap, and use use whichever formula is most beneficial.

Things that add to AC:

Shield: +2, requires Proficiency, can't be used with Monk Unarmored Defense or two handed weapon.
Dual Wielder Feat: +1 AC if wielding a different melee weapon in each hand (inferior to shield)
Defensive Fighting Style: +1 AC if wearing armor (Fighter/Paladin/Ranger class ability)
Defensive Duelist Feat: Adds proficiency to AC against 1 attack as a Reaction if wielding a Finesse weapon you're proficient in.
Medium Armor Mastery Feat: +1 AC if wearing Medium Armor and you have 16 Dex.
War Caster Feat: Allows casting while using weapons/shield. Important for utilizing the Defensive Duelist Feat while spell casting.

Shield spell: Reaction, +5 AC for 1 round. Wizard 18 Spell Mastery lets them cast it at will.
Shield of Faith spell: +2 AC, Bonus Action to cast, Duration of 10 minutes with Concentration.
Haste spell: +2 bonus to AC and lots of other benefits, Action to cast, Duration of 1 minute with Concentration.
Bracers of Defense: +3 (Horde of the Dragon Queen Supplement)
Staff of Defense: +1 (Lost Mine of Phandelver)
Ring of Protection: +1 (Lost Mine of Phandelver)
+1/+2/+3 Armor (DMG)
+1/+2/+3 Shield (DMG)


So basically any class can get to 17 or 18 AC.
Any non-Monk with a Shield can get 19 or 20 AC.
Mon with max Dex/Wis can get to 20 AC.
Fighter or Ranger with Shield and Defensive Style can get 21 AC.
Barbarian with max Dex/Con and a Shield can get 22 AC (or 24 at level 20)
Cleric with heavy armor, a Shield, and Shield of Faith can get 22 (with Concentration).
Paladin with heavy armor, Defensive Fighting Style, a Shield, and Shield of Faith can get 23 (with Concentration).
Defensive Duelist Feat or Shield spell or Haste spell (with Concentration) can push it up higher temporarily.
Magic items can push it up by another +1 to +9, but are entirely dependent on DM fiat, and most require Attunement.


TL;DR: Max Dex or get heavy armor proficiency, use a shield, have decent Constitution, don't worry about other stuff unless its a boss fight.

[Demonic Spoon]

Out of curiosity, why are sorcerer levels needed at all for this? Four elements monk can already "cast" fire spells. If you wanted to get the draconic flavor, I'm not sure a sorcerer multiclass is the way to go - there's little in that class that would actually do anything for you.

the best solution might be homebrew - either exchanging some or all of your race features for the dragonborn's features, or a feat that gives you some dragon-themed abilities.

[Grand Warchief]

Out of curiosity, why are sorcerer levels needed at all for this? Four elements monk can already "cast" fire spells. If you wanted to get the draconic flavor, I'm not sure a sorcerer multiclass is the way to go - there's little in that class that would actually do anything for you.

the best solution might be homebrew - either exchanging some or all of your race features for the dragonborn's features, or a feat that gives you some dragon-themed abilities.

The sorcerer is mainly for background stuff. He is descended from dragons and so has some traits from them, ie the resilience. It also fluffs out his innate magical abilities. Now he could go around casting spells like other sorcerers, but why would he do that when he can just punch things...With fire on his fists! If I didn't take the sorcerer level at level 1, he would be going without any ability to use fire untilled he "learned" it from being a monk? I didn't like that. It wouldn't fit the fluff. He has magic within him that he uses for physical attacks instead of spells. Also, it gives him the ability to throw fire (firebolt). Plus I like the idea that the scales of his ancestors help protect him. :)

I guess it just sucks that his wisdom doesn't help him cause of rules :(

[Demonic Spoon]

Keep in mind that classes aren't fluff, classes are packages of abilities (and can be refluffed as needed). If all you wanted out of a level in sorcerer was draconic resilience, why not just describe your character's skin as rough and scaly, and fluff your monk unarmored defense to in part be from your tougher skin?

Other abilities could come from a feat.

[Grand Warchief]

Keep in mind that classes aren't fluff, classes are packages of abilities (and can be refluffed as needed). If all you wanted out of a level in sorcerer was draconic resilience, why not just describe your character's skin as rough and scaly, and fluff your monk unarmored defense to in part be from your tougher skin?

Other abilities could come from a feat.

I appreciate your input, but I disagree with you. Classes that specify background, like sorcerer and warlock, come with a lot of fluff. :)

[silveralen]

Considering the other options in this case aren't balanced (+3 AC too strong, but without that you basically have a dead level that gives little benefit and caps your AC at 18) the easiest solution is to use other options to represent the same backstory.

The other option would be to discuss I with your DM and find a compromise.

For example: letting you add +1 to your AC from sorcerer on top of your monk AC, or going with a modified magic intiate which gives +1 AC and the firebolt cantrip. Or at least lettin you use your sorcerer spells via wisdom (or use CHA for your monk abilities, whichever makes more sense in context).

Those all keep the flavor and are at least marginally balanced.

[Joe the Rat]

It's a bit like tavern brawler: unless it's a sorcerer or wizard, at least one aspect of the feat will be redundant with what a character can already do.

But let's look at this. Draconic Resilience: AC is now 13+Dexmod, and you get an extra hit point per sorcerer level. For this character, one point. Not a total loss then. So, how's your Wisdom? 16 or better? If not, use your Draconic Resilience. If/when monk Unarmored defense gets better, switch. Draconic Resilience is not a form of Unarmored Defense (it does not refer to itself by that feature name), so the whole primacy of acquisition thing does not preclude its later use when the UD AC is better. I would run this by your DM to make sure they're not going to be weird about not letting you use the better of the two.

On to modding: If you really want a stacking bonus, see if you can persuade your DM to have Draconic Resilience give you a +1 to AC when unarmored. +1 on monk AC won't break the game.


But more importantly, are you taking burning hands for one of your sorc spells? Have you considered having the effect of the spell manifest as a breath weapon? Because exhaling a cone of flame (even with some weird chanting and finger waggling) evokes draconic heritage more than simply being "reasonably good with fire."

[MadBear]

Rules: From a rules perspective, no the two types of armor don't stack

Rest of the question: Where you go from for your class will highly depend. The multi-class sorcerer/monk is one way to represent what you want (it's not very optimal at all, but it fits your theme).

If it was me, I'd probably re-fluff the dragonborn class to be a human that also got to shoot a magical fire blast from my fists once per short rest, until monk 3 came online. The abilities scores don't synergize too well, but it does do a good job of meshing being tougher and more charismatic from the dragon side. This would also free you up to go monk all the way. You could even fluff it as until level 3, you can't control the fire that well (hence why it's only an uncontrolled blast until level 3).

The other option is to make house rules.

[Grand Warchief]

It's a bit like tavern brawler: unless it's a sorcerer or wizard, at least one aspect of the feat will be redundant with what a character can already do.

But let's look at this. Draconic Resilience: AC is now 13+Dexmod, and you get an extra hit point per sorcerer level. For this character, one point. Not a total loss then. So, how's your Wisdom? 16 or better? If not, use your Draconic Resilience. If/when monk Unarmored defense gets better, switch. Draconic Resilience is not a form of Unarmored Defense (it does not refer to itself by that feature name), so the whole primacy of acquisition thing does not preclude its later use when the UD AC is better. I would run this by your DM to make sure they're not going to be weird about not letting you use the better of the two.

On to modding: If you really want a stacking bonus, see if you can persuade your DM to have Draconic Resilience give you a +1 to AC when unarmored. +1 on monk AC won't break the game.


But more importantly, are you taking burning hands for one of your sorc spells? Have you considered having the effect of the spell manifest as a breath weapon? Because exhaling a cone of flame (even with some weird chanting and finger waggling) evokes draconic heritage more than simply being "reasonably good with fire."

That's kinda the idea. :) he's based off of Natsu from Fairy Tail. Burning hands is his dragon breath and firebolt is his primary ranged attack when his enemies refuse to fight him on the ground. All the other spells he gets are super situational and probably won't be used much. I'm not really optimizing him, just trying to make sure he doesn't fall too far behind the warlock/sorcerer with quickened EB, the barBEARian with his stupid resistances, or the Paladin/bard with his power smites via spell points. I really like the idea of the sorcerer background and the monk benefits. Thanks for the quick replies btw :)

[MadBear]

That's kinda the idea. :) he's based off of Natsu from Fairy Tail. Burning hands is his dragon breath and firebolt is his primary ranged attack when his enemies refuse to fight him on the ground. All the other spells he gets are super situational and probably won't be used much. I'm not really optimizing him, just trying to make sure he doesn't fall too far behind the warlock/sorcerer with quickened EB, the barBEARian with his stupid resistances, or the Paladin/bard with his power smites via spell points. I really like the idea of the sorcerer background and the monk benefits. Thanks for the quick replies btw :)

In that case, why not just go full monk, and variant human with the feat being magic initiate. You can get burning hands as the 1st level spell, and firebolt as the cantrip? that'd work way better imho

[Grand Warchief]

In that case, why not just go full monk, and variant human with the feat being magic initiate. You can get burning hands as the 1st level spell, and firebolt as the cantrip? that'd work way better imho

I get burning hands as a monk feature at level 6 anyway. Like I said, the spells are probably not going to be used. The sorcerer level is for fluff, giving him the draconic ancestry and associated benefits without making him look like a weird lizard man.

[MadBear]

I get burning hands as a monk feature at level 6 anyway. Like I said, the spells are probably not going to be used. The sorcerer level is for fluff, giving him the draconic ancestry and associated benefits without making him look like a weird lizard man.

No worries, in that case, it will be suboptimal, but the sorcerer will work.

(though grabbing it from magic initiate gives you another use of it, which with the elemental monk is already going to be limited)

[Jlooney]

The multiclass rules in the PHB are pretty clear that they don't stack. More than that though, it isn't even mechanically or mathematically possible to combine them without essentially making up brand new rules - neither ability gives a bonus, they each change the Ac formula and without any interactivity between the forumulas they cannot be combined. To do so you would have to ignore one of the abilities and replace it with an ability that offers a bonus (In the case of the Monk you would erase their ability and offer a flat + Wismod to AC or in the Sorc's case, a flat +3 to AC).
You won't find any support for what you are asking on these forums, you are better off trying to convince your DM blind and hope that he is either very lenient or very unaware of the rules. Or just do what some of the players in my games do and don't say anything to the DM - just stack them anyway until caught out.

There is an undertone of bitterness there.

[Oscredwin]

Maybe make up a custom background for this?