Homebrew counters to "battlefield control"

[Epiphanis]

I'm considering a house rule to help counter the supremacy of battlefield control magic. I'd appreciate feedback.

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Skill Trick (as per Complete Scoundrel):

DIVE AWAY [MOVEMENT]

You have learned to throw your body clear of danger with amazing speed.

Prerequisite: Jump 5 ranks, +5 Initiative.

Benefit: You may make a long jump as an immediate action. It may be performed simultaneously with the occurence of any spell, spell-like ability, or other effect targeting an area, and the Jump is completed after the area of the effect is ascertained but before it actually takes effect. You add a competence bonus equal to the lesser of your ranks in Jump or your Reflex save bonus to the Jump check to determine how far you can jump. An equal penalty is applied to any Reflex save you make until the end of the current round, and applies to any Reflex save the effect might incur if the long jump failed to remove you from its area. The distance moved in the jump is not counted against your Movement for the round, but you become prone and flat-footed at the end of the jump.

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So -- what do you think? I'm particularly concerned about the prerequisites. This won't be easily available to a strong, slow Fighter build but Rogue-types and mobile, skillful martial characters should be able to qualify fairly easily.

[Kel_Arath]

there is an easy solution to this, evasion.
but its a neat idea, i think its pretty cool

[Epiphanis]

This would apply to no-save area effects. Given enough ranks in Jump, it could get you out of a forcecage.

[Counterspin]

I think this should probably be in homebrew, but I'll comment anyway.

First, it's interesting, and definitely adresses a need the system haves. Two things.

1) Nothing uses your initiative score as a prereq. This isn't a big deal for me personally, but it's a departure from the rules. Perhaps consider Imp. Initiative as a prereq instead?
2)I see the possiblity of abuse, having a caster throw a low level area affect spell to "move' someone in the group. Prone and flat-footed doesn't prevent a full attack.

[Aquillion]

First, shouldn't it have Uncanny Dodge as a prereq? After all, this is basically a superior version of that, and thematically would require everything an Uncanny Dodge entails.

Second, you should specify that the jump must either take you out of, into, or through the area affected by the spell (jumping past the point where a wall is being created counts as 'through', naturally). This would limit abuse. Although, given that it makes you prone, some abuse isn't so bad--it seems fair to allow, for instance, the wizard to cast a wall of stone in a certain place, knowing that the rogue is quick and can jump to the 'correct' side of it before it actually appears. But having someone take a jump unrelated to the spell being cast should be prevented.

[Epiphanis]

1) Nothing uses your initiative score as a prereq. This isn't a big deal for me personally, but it's a departure from the rules. Perhaps consider Imp. Initiative as a prereq instead?


There are classes and feats that have certain modifiers, such as a Will save of a certain level, as a prereq, so it doesn't seem improper to make an Initiative modifier a prereq. But you are right, I haven't seen it before.


2)I see the possiblity of abuse, having a caster throw a low level area affect spell to "move' someone in the group. Prone and flat-footed doesn't prevent a full attack.


Second, you should specify that the jump must either take you out of, into, or through the area affected by the spell (jumping past the point where a wall is being created counts as 'through', naturally). This would limit abuse.

I considered these, but it strains the verisimilitude a lot. What logical reason could there be why a person is capable of throwing themselves sideways when a spell is coming there way, but not any other time?

The potential for abuse rests in getting that extra movement on any given round. There are several feats, skill tricks, and class abilities that allow one to get up from prone as an immediate action and/or without provoking an AoO. On the other hand, there are a similar number of tweaks that allow you to add some movement past your base move also, so its not without precedent and not necessarily broken. Still, I'm a bit uncertain about it myself.

An alternative I've considered is that if the jump carries you past your movement limit (such as if you make the Dive Away after you've made all your movement/standard actions) that the jump ends the same way as an 'end full round action' just as in a normal Jump check. You would think of the jumper as being in midair for the remainder of the round the immediate action was taken, not inside the area of effect but not feet on the ground either. That may be a better way to handle it.


shouldn't it have Uncanny Dodge as a prereq?

I don't think so. First, its supposed to be accessible. Since Jump is a class skill of virtually all the high-mobility classes good-skill classes, and the trick doesn't eat a precious feat slot, virtually any mobile character could take this without too much trouble. Even a brick-build fighter with 2 skill points might eventually take it, etc.

The trick has similarities to a number of different feats/abilities, including Uncanny Dodge, Improved Initiative, Evasion, Danger Sense, and Dive for Cover, but I don't think any of them are appropriate as a prereq. This trick ultimately has two effects: a jump as an immediate action and the ability to substitute that jump for a Reflex save in certain instances. It does have a potential for abuse (hence my soliciting feedback) but less than the condition it is meant to combat.

I think I'm going to revise it so the movement past your move limit automatically converts to a full-round action jump.

[Aquillion]

I considered these, but it strains the verisimilitude a lot. What logical reason could there be why a person is capable of throwing themselves sideways when a spell is coming there way, but not any other time?Easy, the sight of impending doom / entrapment / whatever sends a surge of adrenaline through their body and triggers their highly-honed natural reflexes.


I don't think so. First, its supposed to be accessible. Since Jump is a class skill of virtually all the high-mobility classes good-skill classes, and the trick doesn't eat a precious feat slot, virtually any mobile character could take this without too much trouble. Even a brick-build fighter with 2 skill points might eventually take it, etc.I think this is a mistake. It's one thing to include new abilities for balance, but saying that anyone can take them destroys their flavor.

And, really, a brick-build fighter in heavy armor throwing themselves out of the way of spells? No. That's like giving them the ability to dispel magic by hitting it very hard with their swords--tempting for game balance purposes, but too out-of-style for them to fit into the game. What you're describing here is practically one of the iconic abilities of rogues and barbarians.

For that matter, I just noticed that you had the ability practically activating automatically--someone targets a fireball (or, in fact, any area spell) on you, you jump out of the way automatically as long you're near the edge as your jump check doesn't fail miserably (which it never will with a few ranks). That's... that's a no. Don't forget a huge number of spells are just a 10-foot area, making jumping out simple under most circumstances. Simply using the ability really ought to require a reflex save against the spell before anything else happens. (If the spell already requires a reflex save, you'd have to succeed at that save--if you fail a reflex save to a fireball, you're just not fast enough to do anything in response to it.) Its main effect would be to allow a save against spells that normally don't allow a save, which is already a huge benefit. It doesn't need to grant anything else.

This isn't even a feat we're talking about here, and it's already letting you do more than Uncanny Dodge in most cases. Making it that much better--allowing you to dodge virtually any spell with no save--is absurd.

[Indon]

And, really, a brick-build fighter in heavy armor throwing themselves out of the way of spells? No. That's like giving them the ability to dispel magic by hitting it very hard with their swords--tempting for game balance purposes, but too out-of-style for them to fit into the game. What you're describing here is practically one of the iconic abilities of rogues and barbarians.

Well, armor check penalty would apply to the jump check. Mind also that any 'brick-build' fighter who has this feat has in fact actively trained jumping (a fighter class skill, mind you, so a Fighter with Dex 12 and Int 8 could qualify for this at level 2, with Improved Initiative).



For that matter, I just noticed that you had the ability practically activating automatically--someone targets a fireball (or, in fact, any area spell) on you, you jump out of the way automatically as long you're near the edge as your jump check doesn't fail miserably (which it never will with a few ranks).
Here I agree. But rather than requiring a Reflex save, I'd say upping the difficulty of the Jump check should do. Applying the -4 penalty for not getting a running start is a good start, though a net penalty more like -10 would be more appropriate (that way, a Fighter in heavy armor would need in the whereabouts of +15 to their check to be able to reliably get out of the way of a Fireball).

Perhaps apply double armor check penalty to this check, like Swim checks do?




This isn't even a feat we're talking about here, and it's already letting you do more than Uncanny Dodge in most cases. Making it that much better--allowing you to dodge virtually any spell with no save--is absurd.

Isn't it Evasion which you want to compare with this ability? Uncanny Dodge involves like, flanking bonuses and being caught flat-footed and so on.

Though it is quite powerful (and IMO too easy to pull off at present), it carries a number of risks Evasion doesn't; using it makes you flat-footed, for example (which means it would actually synergize well with Uncanny Dodge, come to think of it).

[Reinboom]

I don't believe this is too powerful, though needs some tweaking for flavor reasons.
May I mention/remind that you can only perform 1 skill trick per encounter/per minute without the skill trick specific feats or prestige classes built around skill tricks? So the moving abuse can't be done round after round and your avoiding only 1 forcecage normally with this..

[Aquillion]

Isn't it Evasion which you want to compare with this ability? Uncanny Dodge involves like, flanking bonuses and being caught flat-footed and so on.Whoops, yes, that's what I meant. I was tired.

Here I agree. But rather than requiring a Reflex save, I'd say upping the difficulty of the Jump check should do. Applying the -4 penalty for not getting a running start is a good start, though a net penalty more like -10 would be more appropriate (that way, a Fighter in heavy armor would need in the whereabouts of +15 to their check to be able to reliably get out of the way of a Fireball).The problem is that skill checks are much, much easier to boost than saving throws, and jumping in particular is easy to raise (there are tons of magic items and spells to boost it.) Using skill checks alone to avoid spells (or, indeed, to govern any major aspect of combat, like an absolute hit or miss with anything) isn't something that should ever be allowed.

Realistically, this ability, combined with enough jumping ability to make it ten feet reliably (easy to get with magic items), will make you totally immune to any spell with a limited area, including web, lightning bolt, black tentacles, forcecage, and many others; it would make you mostly immune to many more (they'd have to be centered on you exactly to keep you from jumping away.) Keep in mind, Forcecage, while powerful, is a 7th level limited-area spell with a 1500-gp material component. As described, this would be too powerful as a feat, irrespective of requirements. No number of ranks in Jump should be able to let you just ignore a 7th level spell; for that matter, no feat should let you just automatically escape such a wide range of spells without a saving throw.

It needs to require a reflex save against the spell to function; the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it simply isn't a usable houserule without it. I'd also definitely make it require Evasion as a prerequiste, but that's not as major a point.

[Reinboom]

Realistically, this ability, combined with enough jumping ability to make it ten feet reliably (easy to get with magic items), will make you totally immune to any spell with a limited area, including web, lightning bolt, black tentacles, forcecage, and many others; it would make you mostly immune to many more (they'd have to be centered on you exactly to keep you from jumping away.) Keep in mind, Forcecage, while powerful, is a 7th level single-target spell with a 1500-gp material component. As described, this would be too powerful as a feat, irrespective of requirements. No number of ranks in Jump should be able to let you just ignore a 7th level spell; for that matter, no feat should let you just automatically escape such a wide range of spells without a saving throw.
[/QUOTE]

If it's a skill trick, as I said in the previous post, then it isn't total immunity as you can only perform it once per encounter or minute as by the rules of skill tricks.

[Indon]

Oh, and it needs to specify you can't use it while flat-footed yourself.