Retiarius Style?

[MrStabby]

I was wondering how to best build a Retiarius type character and if there is actually anything that could make it good at higher levels.

So obviously the main theme would be to use a net in combat and to try to take advantage of that; beyond that I would be happy to use a spear, a trident or a polearm.

Now the net rules don't seem to scale well. DC10 strength check or 5 slashing damage at AC10 will almost certainly not even last a whole round against a mid-level fighter (although I am not sure if the restrained person is able to attack the net). Added to this the Net counts as a ranged weapon so no bonus action attack from an offhand weapon. Even then there is less bonus to extra attacks as you are capped at making one attack with the net.

In addition they are not monk weapons, there is no fighting style bonus, they are not crossbows...

There are a couple of things that might help though.

Sharpshooter - good for shooting attacks but weird with nets. Take the 5 point to hit penalty to have your net do 10 points of damage? Again I don't know if this is allowed. Nice but wont get you that far at high level anyway.

Sentinel - if the GM allows the guy inside the net to attack it (with disadvantage) this will at least give me a free attack.

Minor Conjuration - It may be cheesy and it is certainly down to DM Fiat but once you had seen one crafted maybe you could conjure an Adamantine chain net folded in your hand which would have a considerably higher armour class.

The rogue class seems a good class for this (or it did at first)- no extra attacks so not a lot of wasted resource throwing the net. Gets big benefits from the advantage that the net gives. Problems are to get advantage the rogue needs to use a finesse weapon so already you are breaking style. A re-fluffed whip might work though - it has reach and sits in one hand nicely. You still face difficulty as you need to find proficiency for it somewhere (and a fighting style would be nice as well. (Rules question - for sneak attack i don't believe you have to use the mode of the weapon that makes it eligible for sneak attack - so you can still use strength with finesse weapons; can i then sneak attack with a trident as it is a ranged weapon? Or does it have to come under the ranged heading? Or is it likely to be different for different DMs?)

Fighter is interesting. If you are not using your attacks because you have thrown a net then Commander's strike suddenly seems better value.

The problem is that most ideas I come up with to try and get this to work just don't really seem to
have anything going for them. It is probably not a good sign if (starting at lvl 5) you are tempted by two levels of Conjuration, a level of Fighter and two levels of Ranger, Rogue or Paladin!

Am I missing something like an obvious way to throw a net as a bonus action? A way to help the net survive? A way to get additional advantage from the target being restrained.

What I don't want to do is to spend every turn throwing a new net and the target breaking out of it (and attacking me) and for me to be doing them no damage because ALL I am doing is throwing a net.

[silveralen]

Sadly you aren't missing much. The net isn't particularly effective. To clarify, yes sharpshooter would work with a ranged net attack (helps some), but a trident doesn't have the finesse trait so it can't be used to sneak attack in melee by RAW regardless of any other factors. I'm also reasonable sure you can't use your extra attacks for anything, even things like commander's strike, if you toss a net, though this is vague enough it'll depend on the DM.

There are a few possible ways to get around the stupid net rules though.

1. Improvised net+two weapon fighting: The section on improvised weapons mentions that you can make a melee attack with a ranged weapon, but not prof on the attack and you only deal 1d4 damage. Now, it doesn't mention what happens to any special traits that weapon might have. This means you can make a case for using the net as an improvised melee weapon to restrain people, allowing you to benefit from two weapon fighting, though you would need the two weapon fighting feet as it wouldn't be a light weapon.

You can get around the need for that feat if you already have multiple attacks and split them between net and trident, the rest with your spear/trident. Nothing prevents this, two weapon fighting rules only apply to generating extra attacks with your BA, not splitting your normal attacks between multiple weapons.

You'd also likely need tavern brawler to make good usage of this, as you won't have prof bonus on those melee net attacks, which also means this is rather feat intensive regardless.

All in all this one very much depends on your DM, as the specifics of what occurs aren't explictly covered.

1b. Tavern Brawler: An alternative way of doing this is to just take tavern brawler, make an improvised melee attack with your net, grapple them with said net, and make the rest of your attacks with a trident. Again, you don't actually have to make all your attacks with a single weapon (I've checked, it is not called out anywhere I've found), the two weapon fighting rules only apply if you want to generate extra bonus action attacks, which isn't the goal. So this works perfectly.

You aren't restraining the enemy in this scenario, which might be an issue if you are really tied to the mechanics, but you do grapple them with it which seems fitting enough for an entangling melee net.

You also can't do this particularly well till you get two attacks per round, but unlike the normal net you at least stand a decent shot at keeping them grappled for more than one turn.

The only rules issue here is the lack of an empty hand for grappling, but considering you can punch someone then grapple them for the exact same mechanical effect I'd say this is a non issue (though I can see that bothering someone who wants something more unique from this fighting style, but frankly making it mildly effective is already a challenge).

2. Haste: Because it gives you a second action which can already make only a single attack per round, you can use the haste action for a net with a minimal loss.

This also has the advantage of allowing you to use a two handed weapon after tossing the net, unlike the other two options, meaning you can either grip your trident in both hands or use an actual two handed polearm.

3. Crossbow expert: Net+BA crossbow attack. Good for rogues, not very fitting for this fluff, but a decent 100% rules legal comparison point if someone claims one of the other solutions is overpowered.

In summation: Your best bet is probably tavern brawler for using net as an improvised weapon which you can grapple with. Has the added advantage of not putting your net at risk of being destroyed every round. Mixing that with haste to allow you to actually restrain later when you have the chance works well, or grab two weapon fighter for melee restrains if your DM allows.

Builds-
Fighter: works well for getting both two weapon fighting and tavern brawler (and all of these basically require you to be human unless you don't mind waiting for a few levels), EK eventually gets haste and all have action surge to help. No bonus to landing grapples though, which may or may not be a problem for you.

Valor Bard: fairly fitting (gladiators are showmen after all) as he can use expertise to grapple reliably, can snag haste at lvl 10, and is a reliable combatant overall.

Barbarian: If you don't want to bother with haste and are okay just grappling with the net, barbarian is a decent choice as well. You have advantage to grapple (and on attacks) plus more damage while raging. Worth mentioning is that, at this point, the net is pretty much just fluff. Which may or may not bother you.

Barbarian/Lore Bard: You can also multiclass, mixing barbarian and bard to make the best grappler who also has access to haste. In this case start with barbarian and take him to lvl 5, then lore bard to 6 for haste. Arguably outright better than straight valor bard if you don't want many upper level spells.

Fighter/Rogue: pretty much just grabbing expertise since fighter lacks any good athletics boost of his own.

Sorry for the wall of text but I wanted to try and lay out everything I could find about it, as not being able to build a concept always bothers me.

[Gwendol]

There was a 3.5 feat to help with this style. I suggest to look at it for inspiration. Also being entangled isn't very taxing in 5e, so this too might need some attention to make the style viable.

[Naanomi]

Nets are decent for Beastmasters; who can throw the net with their attack and give their second attack to the pet to attack the now-entangled opponent. Hold a Trident if you want to complete the image (or stab during other rounds if they fail to escape the net); no real 'dual wielding', just holding two weapons to use whichever is appropriate each round.

[MrStabby]

So some of this was very cheering. I had never realised that your attack action attacks could be split between different weapons and indeed split between melee and ranged weapons. Yes, I still think as a whole the setup is weak but not enough to not be fun.

So I will need a class that gives 2+ attacks, fighting styles would be nice and to cap it a way of really getting advantage from advantage.

level 5 Eldritch knight could be a good start - you get the proficiencies, the extra attack and a fighting style; one more level gets you a feat as well. In addition you can re-summon your net if needed. Take a versatile weapon (refluffed as needed) so you can hold it in one hand to throw the net then two hand fight to do a decent amount of damage. If the DM is lenient I might even be allowed to throw the net then summon a two handed weapon. A few mend spells there and being able to come across a fancy fancy net in the game world might see this work.

At higher levels I could go for more attacks or could go for rogue to deal more damage on my advantage attacks (which would then require something like a whip). Cunning action might help throw the net when people get too close later on in combat. I am hoping that spells would keep the class interesting as without battlemaster you lose a lot of choices.

With some DM forgiveness I could also use a bladelock. This would be both a bit more fun and awesomely stylish. The problem is that the extra attack only applies when I attack with my Pact Weapon so no throw and stab as written. Also I would want to be able to summon my net as my pact weapon (so I would be begging a ruling that would allow me to use the net in melee as well.

Actually this is tempting me to not play as this character at all but to use something like this for one of the factions in my gameworld that I am DMing. Something like Warlock 5, Arcane Trickster 3 could work well for a class that can use a lot of tricks in a fight but isn't overpowered (using a re-fluffed whip as their weapon). It also seems to fit the style of the faction as well.

[Giant2005]

Dual-Wielding works just fine with nets - it says right there in the rules that you can throw your off-hand weapon and nets are not ranged weapons, they are thrown weapons. so just do whatever you like with your main-hand weapon and throw the net from the off-hand as a bonus action.

[silveralen]

Glad you seem to be happier! Do note you still need a way to get around the "one attack per action" thing, as it prevents outright splitting. I forgot that in the above when discussing the net restrain as an improvised melee weapon bit (section 1) as splitting attacks won't work unless your DM house rules that away. Or rules it as no more than one net attack per action (which is a possible reading of the official rule, albeit not the one I first thought of).


Dual-Wielding works just fine with nets - it says right there in the rules that you can throw your off-hand weapon and nets are not ranged weapons, they are thrown weapons. so just do whatever you like with your main-hand weapon and throw the net from the off-hand as a bonus action.

This, while a fair logical ruling, isn't strictly raw. It's listed as a ranged weapon with the thrown property, which means it lacks inherent duel wielding.

Is that stupid, annoying, and nonsensical? Yes. But that is official RAW, so you'll need to talk with you DM. Or hope he never bothers looking at the net section of the PHB.

[Naanomi]

One can always split between rounds... If you win initiative, readied action to throw the net after they act, stab with trident next round?

[MrStabby]

Glad you seem to be happier! Do note you still need a way to get around the "one attack per action" thing, as it prevents outright splitting. I forgot that in the above when discussing the net restrain as an improvised melee weapon bit (section 1) as splitting attacks won't work unless your DM house rules that away. Or rules it as no more than one net attack per action (which is a possible reading of the official rule, albeit not the one I first thought of).



Ah, I thought the rules were consistent with splitting but that no more than one attack could be with the net.If not it's a bit of a problem. If I am DM... then I have to look at it and see if a more lenient position will make encounters too hard (but I can compensate in other ways). If I use this when playing... then I will have to check interpretation. I will admit that using a net took your whole action was my initial interpretation but that was simply because it honestly never occurred to me to split your attacks between different weapons.



One can always split between rounds... If you win initiative, readied action to throw the net after they act, stab with trident next round?

I think it is pretty important to be able to get the attacks in on the same round that the net goes down. Most monsters are pretty strong and a DC10 strength check wont keep them in place... Every turn you throw your net, every turn they break free - you don't get to do any damage. Throwing the net and getting one attack with advantage is pretty mediocre all in all given that it is less damage than two attacks. Still some potential bonuses if you have team mates that roll to hit before your target gets their turn. I think in the situation you describe they would still get to save on their turn? If not though, this could be useful.

[Bubzors]

Yea sadly you can't really use the net then take advantage of it by attacking on the same turn without using something like action surge. However, hopefully your character is not alone. He has a whole party to help out. Depending on the initiative order, the entire team could get in attacks at advantage. This is very helpful to a rogue, but useful for everyone. Can lead to a lot of damage done in one turn. Also, it's important to remember that in order to escape they must use their action. This is huge. Not only did your party hopefully did some major damage, he now can't attack you right back.

Again, not the best plan in the world, but to keep down a mobile target, or make it easier for the rest of the team to hit that big baddie, it can be very useful. Maybe you won't do it every turn, but when the situation comes up, you can turn the tides of battle.

As an example, I just used this in my most recent encounter in the game I DM. Weaker bad guys threw nets on the big bruisers of the party, then the heavy hitters came in hard with advantage. Then the players had to decide between healing, or cutting their way out and running. Lead to a funny incident where Brunson the fighter cut and ran, leaving the party paladin prone inside a net with low health surrounded by enemies. I believe the paladin's last words before being knocked unconscious was, "Brunson you f****** p****!"

[MrStabby]

Yeah, the whole duellist pitted against another gladiator in the arena style can't quite work as well as you would like. Part of the challenge is getting the net back (hence seeing if I can get DM approval to get a melee version of the net (which would solve a huge number of problems!) so I can blade pact it!

Certainly if I don't play it, I will be using them in the game I DM. Pack hunting bad guys using different tactics (in contrast to the monsters they often face, who are a bit dumb) should be fun for everyone.

[unwise]

The Tavern Brawler + Grappler feat combo could work well for this. If an attack with unarmed or an improvised weapon lets you grapple somebody, surely an attack with a weighted net does too. Same rules, you are still proficient and doing d4 damage with it and grappling.

As a DM, I would allow somebody to use Polearm Master to use the net for the bonus attack, rather than the butt of the trident.

I would talk to your DM about this, I am sure that you can make something workable easily enough and it is a strong enough theme that almost any DM would be happy to do the tiny bit of houseruling necessary to make it work.

[MrStabby]

The Tavern Brawler + Grappler feat combo could work well for this. If an attack with unarmed or an improvised weapon lets you grapple somebody, surely an attack with a weighted net does too. Same rules, you are still proficient and doing d4 damage with it and grappling.

As a DM, I would allow somebody to use Polearm Master to use the net for the bonus attack, rather than the butt of the trident.

I would talk to your DM about this, I am sure that you can make something workable easily enough and it is a strong enough theme that almost any DM would be happy to do the tiny bit of houseruling necessary to make it work.

I am sure I could get the DM to agree. It does open up options it is (to my eyes anyway) "cool" and it doesn't seem overpowered.

Oddly enough I might have reservations about using a net with a Polearm unless it was a quarterstaff in one hand.

The tavern brawler feat - I may have missunderstood before. Is the suggestion that I improvise using the net as a "net", where a "net" is basically a close combat version of the net? if that makes sense... If so i wouldn't worry about the grapple rules at all (restrained is probably better anyway!). If I have to take a feat to make this work then fine (although I could probably get the DM to homebrew a net-master feat instead.

My residual question is whether I want to use this myself or use it as the DM (two campaigns to run in parallel with the same people). I suppose the question is about whether I can see enough developmental paths to higher levels to keep it interesting. If I aimed for Warlock (PotB) 5, Rogue (AT) 3+x as my progression there should be enough goodies in there to keep me interested for a bit...