PDA

View Full Version : My Characters better than Your Character



Takamari
2007-04-12, 02:32 AM
So, who can tell me why we get players that insist on this? I mean really, who cares. I am simply ranting right now, and I'm positive this has come up in other threads, but I'm sick of it.

Where I live, I have two gaming groups. One group is excellent, but we only game twice a month and everyone is very big into the RAW. The other group is ok, but more willing to bend. This second group has the problem above.

I balance my games. I give everyone super heroic stats: 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 11. I figure that with these stats, ANY class can be played well. Not to forget that we don't have one player with great rolled stats and one with horrible stats. We don't use point buy. And truely, I like my PCs to be heroic. They adventure because they are the best, and the even stats means that no character is straight better stat wise.

Now, we all know that there is a gap in power level, but why do players want to PVP? Anyone on these boards who reads the books knows that a fighter can be built that will destroy a wizard, with the proper feats and magic items. Argue all you want, but it is true, mostly and at low to mid levels.

I've got players that clog my sessions with my character is better than yours, or can kill yours hands down. I want to pull my hair out and just scream that they are on the SAME team and shouldn't even be thinking about who is better than whom.

I know this isn't the best written thread, but I just had to complain to sympathetic ears. I'm sure this has happened to everyone at least once. Any advise would be helpful, or just share your story of woe...

Thanks

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 02:40 AM
So, who can tell me why we get players that insist on this? I mean really, who cares. I am simply ranting right now, and I'm positive this has come up in other threads, but I'm sick of it.
They don't. That's not what the discussions here are about.


I balance my games. I give everyone super heroic stats: 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 11. I figure that with these stats, ANY class can be played well. Not to forget that we don't have one player with great rolled stats and one with horrible stats. We don't use point buy. And truely, I like my PCs to be heroic. They adventure because they are the best, and the even stats means that no character is straight better stat wise.A Complete Warrior Samurai will suck, good stats or bad stats.


Now, we all know that there is a gap in power level, but why do players want to PVP? Anyone on these boards who reads the books knows that a fighter can be built that will destroy a wizard, with the proper feats and magic items. Argue all you want, but it is true, mostly and at low to mid levels. Except, of course, that's NOT true. Especially at the mid levels, before a fighter can afford things like Wings of Flying and a Ring of Freedom of Movement. A mid-level wizard is pretty much totally untouchable by a mid-level fighter just by virute of Overland Flight + Greater Invisibility. I like how you make a statement that's the opposite of the accepted wisdom on these boards, and say "argue all you want but it's true". And by "like" I mean "think it's pretty lame".


I've got players that clog my sessions with my character is better than yours, or can kill yours hands down. I want to pull my hair out and just scream that they are on the SAME team and shouldn't even be thinking about who is better than whom. Some people like to measure RPG genitalia. It's lame. It's also not what the wizard/fighter discussions here are about, really.


I know this isn't the best written thread, but I just had to complain to sympathetic ears. I'm sure this has happened to everyone at least once. Any advise would be helpful, or just share your story of woe...
www.livejournal.com (http://www.livejournal.com)

Jasdoif
2007-04-12, 02:48 AM
If you're looking to provide an outlet for this ingame, arrange to have all the characters invited to a tournament of the one-on-one variety. On the plane of Ysgard, where that true resurrection for anyone killed while there eliminates concern over level loss. Put together a couple of NPCs for the sake of it not looking totally contrived, then run it single-elimination. Your players will get the chance to face off against each other, for fun/profit.

How to integrate it into your plot (if necessary) and how to get the players to agree...well, you're the DM, you'll need to figure it out for yourself.

Turcano
2007-04-12, 02:48 AM
I know this isn't the best written thread, but I just had to complain to sympathetic ears. I'm sure this has happened to everyone at least once. Any advise would be helpful, or just share your story of woe...www.livejournal.com (http://www.livejournal.com)

Oh snap!

10-Character Minimum.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 02:52 AM
To be fair, full credit goes to the snarktastic slapdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=6263), whom I totally stole that from.

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 02:56 AM
Why is there such a problem with using the default font? Seriously, the OP is making it harder to read than is really necessary.

As far as the fighter being able to beat the wizard, I've only seen it when the wizard was either the BBEG of the campaign, who is supposed to get defeated, and when the wizard isn't fully comfortable with the scope of power available. It does get worse the more books you add, but even in core the fighter is looking at an upward battle, and almost always the proposed fighter build either uses leadership to get a full-caster cohort or has UMD maxed out.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 03:00 AM
It's actually pretty worse in Core, because the fighter has so few options.

Charity
2007-04-12, 03:01 AM
but I just had to complain to sympathetic ears.


www.livejournal.com (http://www.livejournal.com)

Good luck with that Takamari.

It is true that some less mature players see D&D as an opportunity to be 'coolerthanU' but this is true of any of the games/activities these people participate in. The only solution is to wait till they grow up, or play with other folk.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-12, 03:40 AM
Sorry Takamari, but if you're looking for sympathy or help, you probably won't find it in this thread. It's just... look, trolling about the fighter/wizard power gap will ruin any topic. My advice: edit your post or something, then create another topic. Use the default font and start with your latest horror-story. Be very, very careful about generalization, and don't make obviously-incorrect throwaway comments about fighters or wizards unless you really want to talk about it for fifteen pages with people who feel obligated to burn you alive.

Also, a sympathetic smiley face:
:smallfrown: Really sorry you've got troubles.

JadedDM
2007-04-12, 03:41 AM
Wow, you people are so nice.

Takamari, for what it's worth, I can sympathize. I once had a player in my own campaigns who seemed to think the other players were not allies, but competition. He was constantly trying to see the other players' character sheets. If he believed their characters were inferior to his own, he would ridicule and mock them. If he believed their characters were superior to his own, he would throw a bit fit about how 'unfair' the game was.

He actually once cheered in victory when the enemy knocked out the party cleric, because he believed her ability to heal people made her 'more important' than his own character. When one of the other fighters managed to procure a magical weapon before he did, he became increasingly antagonistic toward her. He finally outright attacked her (even though it was completely out of character AND he was badly wounded from a previous fight) and he was cut down.

He left the game shortly after that.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 03:45 AM
Thanks for the flame...I like that...no, really I do. Bears, I actually respect your posts. I've found that what you have to say is usually well thought out and informational. I don't know if you care at all or not, but I've lost a measure of respect for you.

I wasn't arguing the wizard fighter angle, but alas, I must defend my case. A well prepared fighter can take a wizard. Remember, not all wizards are not batman or have the right spells prepared. If the fighter gets initative, there is a good chance that he will be able to drop the wizard, and before anyone starts screaming the Celerity card, its an immediate action and you cannot use immediate actions when you are flat footed. Says so in the book. And a fighter that doesn't carry a longbow is not well perpared. For crying out loud, not ALL characters are optimized!

Sorry about the fonts...I wasn't trying anything. I go to college, its times new roman, or courier new.

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 03:51 AM
I wasn't trying to belittle you in my last post, but saying that anyone on these boards knows how to make a fighter build that would beat the wizard would seem to hurt your point no matter whether you're right or wrong.

Personally, the best game balancing I've found is a combination of helping those people who simply don't have much of a head for optimization get at least to the expected level, i.e. that of the example characters, and voluntary reduction in power of the more numbers minded people. Note that desire to make a competent (or more than) character and the ability to do so aren't the same. Quite a few beginning players want to be the best out of the group because it can be an enjoyable experience, and one most people have to play through and get tired of before the rest of the game really becomes clear to them.

Possibly my perspective is skewed because I've been playing since I was a kid and the other members of the group were also usually kids.

Turcano
2007-04-12, 03:52 AM
I wasn't arguing the wizard fighter angle, but alas, I must defend my case. A well prepared fighter can take a wizard. Remember, not all wizards are not batman or have the right spells prepared. If the fighter gets initative, there is a good chance that he will be able to drop the wizard, and before anyone starts screaming the Celerity card, its an immediate action and you cannot use immediate actions when you are flat footed. Says so in the book. And a fighter that doesn't carry a longbow is not well perpared. For crying out loud, not ALL characters are optimized!

No, please, don't start this again.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-12, 03:56 AM
Thanks for the flame...I like that...no, really I do. Bears, I actually respect your posts. I've found that what you have to say is usually well thought out and informational. I don't know if you care at all or not, but I've lost a measure of respect for you.

I wasn't arguing the wizard fighter angle, but alas, I must defend my case. A well prepared fighter can take a wizard. Remember, not all wizards are not batman or have the right spells prepared. If the fighter gets initative, there is a good chance that he will be able to drop the wizard, and before anyone starts screaming the Celerity card, its an immediate action and you cannot use immediate actions when you are flat footed. Says so in the book. And a fighter that doesn't carry a longbow is not well perpared. For crying out loud, not ALL characters are optimized!

Sorry about the fonts...I wasn't trying anything. I go to college, its times new roman, or courier new.
There is a 13 page thread about fighters and wizards right below this one. Go take a look at that. Suffice it to say that you are wrong if you believe that a fighter will beat a wizard. But that argument is in the other thread. Go read it and argue that there.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 03:56 AM
Thanks for the flame...I like that...no, really I do. Bears, I actually respect your posts. I've found that what you have to say is usually well thought out and informational. I don't know if you care at all or not, but I've lost a measure of respect for you.
Oh, come off it; it was a little snark to a post you yourself admit *in* the post was just complaining.
I'm not particularily concerned about respect from random people on the internet, but if you know how I post you should know that I snark to some degree.
What were you looking for, exactly? "Yeah, man! Those people are totally lame, they should STFU and learn to roleplay!"?


I wasn't arguing the wizard fighter angle, but alas, I must defend my case. A well prepared fighter can take a wizard. Remember, not all wizards are not batman or have the right spells prepared. If the fighter gets initative, there is a good chance that he will be able to drop the wizard, and before anyone starts screaming the Celerity card, its an immediate action and you cannot use immediate actions when you are flat footed. Says so in the book. And a fighter that doesn't carry a longbow is not well perpared. For crying out loud, not ALL characters are optimized!
"The right spells" are the ones wizards DO prepare on a regular basis. Pretty much every capable wizard prepares Overland Flight, Slow, and so on and so forth. If the fighter gets initiative, he can move and attack the wizard, or shoot at him with a full attack. A full attack with a bow from a non-specialized-archer won't kill the wizard; nor will a single attack.
Wizards can stop being flat-footed once they get Foresight.

Wiping a wizard out is very, very hard. I'm running a wizard in a tabletop Red Hand of Doom game. I've taken damage and come close to dying... but less and less the higher level we get. Since level 9, I've taken pretty much no damage that wasn't self-inflicted, despite a bunch of high-difficulty encounters. I've occasionally had my offensive efforts frustrated, but enemies who could hurt me if they really tried had much, much easier targets availible and naturally went for them.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 03:56 AM
Look, again, I was not trying to bring up the fighter/wizard thing. I will admit that it was obviously a mistake, but that is a sore topic for me too. Everyone looks at the paper abilities and forgets that the player might be smart enough to close that gap with careful planning and the correct magic items and feats. I know that the wizard is very powerful, but I'd like to think that a smart person can even the odds.

I also wanted to state for the record, I was talking about gaming groups, not the people on this board. I'm referring to how it doesn't matter what I do, I usually end up with a player that thinks his character, usually the guy that is the big bad fighter that deals 50+ damage per hit and has an AC of 25+, is better than everyone elses character, including the wizard and the cleric.

I have seen the wizard brag that his character is so much better than the rogue, but that was easily solved by the Rogue's character saying, "who watches you while you sleep?" One of my friends played a martial cleric who completely sucked. He never used any spells except the ones that boosted his martial abilities, seriously, spells like dispel magic, protection from evil, lesser restoration, were never memorized. He thought he was better than everyone else too, and challenged every other character to fight him. Then he complains when the wizard used his spells and not a weapon or the rogue hiding until his spells wore off.

I just was looking for friendly conversation and advise or stories.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 04:01 AM
Look, again, I was not trying to bring up the fighter/wizard thing. I will admit that it was obviously a mistake, but that is a sore topic for me too. Everyone looks at the paper abilities and forgets that the player might be smart enough to close that gap with careful planning and the correct magic items and feats. I know that the wizard is very powerful, but I'd like to think that a smart person can even the odds.
Oh, come on. Do you REALLY think that we forget about feats and magic items? Do you really think the Character Optimization board forgets about feats and magic items? A smart fighter vs. a stupid wizard can certainly win, but a smart wizard has a huge advantage. What are these magic items and feats that let you kill wizards in the mid-levels, anyway?


I also wanted to state for the record, I was talking about gaming groups, not the people on this board. I'm referring to how it doesn't matter what I do, I usually end up with a player that thinks his character, usually the guy that is the big bad fighter that deals 50+ damage per hit and has an AC of 25+, is better than everyone elses character, including the wizard and the cleric.


I have seen the wizard brag that his character is so much better than the rogue, but that was easily solved by the Rogue's character saying, "who watches you while you sleep?" One of my friends played a martial cleric who completely sucked. He never used any spells except the ones that boosted his martial abilities, seriously, spells like dispel magic, protection from evil, lesser restoration, were never memorized. He thought he was better than everyone else too, and challenged every other character to fight him. Then he complains when the wizard used his spells and not a weapon or the rogue hiding until his spells wore off.

I just was looking for friendly conversation and advise or stories.
You didn't really make that clear. It was basically a bitter rant that seemed like it was targeted at the board, and with a little "and everyone knows" [unpopular opinion X] tossed in for good measure. Are you really so surprised you didn't get a positive response?

Jack Mann
2007-04-12, 04:05 AM
That wasn't a flame. That was actually very well-mannered, except for that last bit, and that was only moderately snarky. Your initial post was actually much more insulting, insofar as it implies that those who engage in power-level debates are as immature as you make your players out to be. If you think Bears's post was a flame, you're not going to like the internet much. There are actual mean people around.

Now, I'm sorry, but with a moderately well-played wizard, a fighter is not going to stand much chance by mid-levels. The wizard just has too many options available to him to keep the fighter from getting that opportunity, and is much more likely to be prepared than the fighter. Neither is particularly at an advantage where sneaking or spotting is concerned, skill-wise, but the wizard at least has spells to help make up for that lack.

Now, if it's a wizard who just throws direct damage around, then yeah, the fighter might win. But that's because the wizard is being played poorly, and going after the fighter's strong point. I mean, in theory, you could find a wizard who used all of his spell slots to prepare open/close. It shouldn't be a surprise that he's taken out pretty quickly. But that's due to player stupidity, not a weakness in the class itself. Any class can be played ineffectively.

Now, a rogue, at level ten, say, still has a pretty good chance, provided the wizard isn't expecting trouble. But that's because rogues have the skills to back it up (including the all-important Use Magic Device).

But again, these debates are not really about who can defeat whom. That's not a proper gauge of class power. The proper gauge is how much they contribute to the party, and the sad fact is that by mid-levels, the casters start to contribute more to the party than the fighter, no matter how much the fighter tries or how well he's built his character. At high levels, unless the monsters deliberately act in an ineffective manner, the fighter largely ceases to matter.

Many of us, including Bears, happen to like playing fighter types. We would like our fighters to remain effective throughout the game. Thus we try to fix the fighter. When we are told that the fighter doesn't need fixing, we explain why we feel this is untrue.

Do you understand now?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 04:10 AM
Incidentally, when I'm done with the Red Hand of Doom game, I'm going to post a summary (less than detailed in some bits) as to how encounters went, etc.

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 04:13 AM
LI know that the wizard is very powerful, but I'd like to think that a smart person can even the odds.


Dude, if you're going to assume intelligence, you have to assume it equally or you're going to have a biased result. You've got to understand that. Wizards simply have more options. How many spells can a high level wizard have available at 8 hours notice? Thousands. Even day to day a wizard has a better spread of options, if not the ability to use those options continuously.

Basically, a smart player with a wizard can do a lot more than a smart player with a fighter, but that's partly because fighters simply get a lot more of what anyone else gets, and almost no good, unique, abilities.



I just was looking for friendly conversation and advise or stories.

You'll find those, but it would help if you took a different tone. Angsting, or at least appearing to, is going to direct the conversation down a completely different road than casually and humorously talking about things. Starting with stories yourself tends to attract more, I find. Also, 'controversial' topics like monkey grip and class balance are not going to have a pleasant effect, period. Even a lurker at this board should realize that within a few weeks.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 04:20 AM
My favorite classes are the cleric and the wizard. I started to love both classes because they, especially the wizard, was more difficult to play at lower levels and they were versitile enough not to become too cookie cutter. It was only when I played in a game that lasted past 6th level did I see the difference in power level, and then the massive difference by levels 9-10.

Not that it makes a difference, but a friend of some of my friends recently died. While I'm not too torn up about it, they are, and I've been playing shoulder to cry on. I've been worn thin because my friends are torn up and I'm concerned about them. In any case, I've been worn thin by this. So, I apologize for being so thin skinned tonight. I don't appriciate being even mildly flamed, but I'm normally a much better sport about it. I also apologize for bringing up the fighter/wizard debate. That was a monumental mistake.

Bears, as to the feats and magic items, I one, don't know the names, but I recall some mage killer type feats that lowered caster levels, made casters automatically fail cast on the defense, or dispelled active spells. As to magic items: boots of teleportation, spell storing barbed arrows that contain silence spells, or dispel magics...etc. In any case, please don't debate any of this with me...I dont' care. I'm only answering a question and I know that what I've listed can make a difference, but won't make THE difference.

Pocket lint
2007-04-12, 04:27 AM
To respond to the OP's actual problem *wrenches thread back on track*, I don't really know other than to say that it's a maturity thing. My first 2nd edition campaign featured such wonderful concepts as "to get into our group, you have to beat up the group's bard". Along with in-party DSW, looting enemies before their bodies hit the ground, tons of immature jokes... etc. And this was players in their early 20s...

Takamari
2007-04-12, 04:36 AM
My favorite was a game in Eberron. The group went to this so called "great healer" who turned out to be a horrible lich. The parties halfling rogue said that he turned around walked out of the room upon seeing a human skin rug. The warforged fighter/warforged juggernaught/reforged/bard, (don't ask, because I wasn't the DM and I didn't want to know), picked up the halfling and walked in. The arguement was, "your coming with us and if you don't, I'll kill or drag you with us."

that kind of thing is also what I'm speaking of, one character going against another. And, no, he wasn't a good rogue, for the record

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 04:41 AM
I do not know your players. but it does sound a bit immature. A little healthy OoG competition can be fun, but if it takes up too much time maybe they should be dueling instead of roleplaying.

Again I do not know your players or their age. They might become more mature with age or maybe a "serious" player can change the attitude around the table.


spell storing barbed arrows that contain silence spells, or dispel magics....

Arrows used as projectiles will not benefit from the spell storing enhancement, since you have to be wielding the weapon to cast the spell.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 04:45 AM
I was under the impression that if you bought a bundle of 50, or if broken down for less money, 1 +1 spell storing arrow, it would deliver its spell on contact with target. Maybe it was a house rule...I'll have to look.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 04:50 AM
You can enhance arrows with the Spell Storing ability, but you cannot cast the spell unless you wield the arrow in melee.


Spell Storing: ... Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 04:56 AM
I interpret that as the arrow being the weapon. The wielder desires the spell to be released on impact with the target, and because all magic arrows are destroyed upon impact, it makes sense that a fired arrow would release the spell. The wording allows for different interpretation. Something to ask Wizards about.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 05:15 AM
There is no ambiguity here.

You are not wielding the arrow if it is flying in the air or if it is sticking out of your opponent.

You cannot decide beforehand to deliver a spell if certain conditions are met, you have to do it when striking and dealing damage and while you are actually wielding the weapon.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 05:20 AM
I am guessing that it was house rulled then. I will continue to keep that rule in my games because it makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. At least now I can say "It works that way because I say so" and not refer players to the book and have them come back and quote it to me. Thanks

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 05:28 AM
The idea is not entirely alien to D&D.
2nd edition had arrows deliver different kinds of spells like fireball and dispel magic to name to classics.
Javelins of Lightning serves the same purpose, really.

Just be careful it does not get out of hand, since arrows are so cheaply priced.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 05:53 AM
Well, if 50 arrows cost 2350gp for a +1, that comes out to 47gp for a single +1 arrow, providing of course, you can find someone to make you one +1 arrow. 50 +2 arrows are 8350gp, which is 167gp. That is rather cheap for what could become such a profound bonus. Arcane archers get the ability to imbue their arrows, but that is the ability of a PrC and one of the better abilities. I can see how it could be abused.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-12, 05:55 AM
I think part of the point is that they shouldn't be argueing who could beat whoever up. They should be working together. The fighter will lose to the Cleric and the Wizard. But this is because the Wizard and the Cleric are supposed to be casting half of their spells on the fighter not on themselves. Why do you think Haste was changed so much? Not being a Bard != all my class features are for myself. Your players need to realise that this is a team game. The rogue can do a lot of damage but only if he's flanking and the wizard can't afford to be flanking. Therefore the fighter has a use. If the enemies are flying then the spellcasters need to cast Fly on the fighter. If a character isn't contributing then the party need to (entirely in character) sit down and discuss ways to make him useful.

I can't magically make your players more mature and secure though. If you're the DM you might try and tailor the encounter so that everyone needs to fight together.

Takamari
2007-04-12, 06:41 AM
Closet Skeleton, you are correct in that I should tailor my encounters, but I have indeed tried that. It resulted in a TPK because my players seemed to be incapable of working together as a team. It is rather funny.

I showed them how it should be. They were jumped by a party two levels lower than them. The Wizard made the rogue invisible(greater) and the fighter large(enlarge person). The fighter drew the attention while the cleric protected the enemy wizard. The rogue proceeded to sap the parties wizard into unconciousness with his human bane merciful sap. The enemy cleric cast bless and prayer while the wizard dealt with the parties cleric and fighter. The fighter had subdued the ninja in the first round.

The group survived, but didn't get the message: when everyone works together, the enemies are a cake walk.

Vik
2007-04-12, 10:53 AM
I was under the impression that if you bought a bundle of 50, or if broken down for less money, 1 +1 spell storing arrow, it would deliver its spell on contact with target. Maybe it was a house rule...I'll have to look.Spell storing is not a possible enhancement for range weapons.

On the Wizard vs Fighter, I'll agree that up to mid-level it's mainly the Initiative check that will resolve the fight, if both are close.

Tallis
2007-04-12, 11:02 AM
Worst case of a player trying to be better than the rest of the group that I've seen:
My group lost a player (he moved to go to graduate school) and a friend of one of the players came to take his place. The first day he tried to rob the party and ran away when he got caught. He then tried to frame them for murder. Fortunately he was an extremely bad liar and it failed miserably. I suggested he make a new character.
The second game he didn't bring the new character with him and I made the mistake of letting him play again with the same character, thinking he would either try to make up with the party or he would die quickly. Instead he snuck into the magistrate's house and killed his butler, once again trying to frame the party. Again he failed, but was smart enough to elude capture.
Everyone was quite happy that he never came back again.
The game will probably be going on hiatus soon for the summer, before it does I think I'm going to bring back his charcter and finally give the group the chance to kill him. Should be fun for everyone.

Matthew
2007-04-12, 05:16 PM
Hmmn. "If you don't have anything nice to say..." Well, regardless, this is a fairly common problem in Roleplaying Groups, especially newer groups. Charity has the right of it when he says that this probably isn't the only way in which such people are competative. Yes, it is annoying when people within groups behave in this way, but you don't have many options as to how to deal with it because it is likely an out of game problem.

PnP Fan
2007-04-13, 12:42 AM
I've never really had this problem in the scale you do. It has usually been one player who is insecure/obsessed. You might try upping the number/level of the encounters so that they don't have time to worry about each other. If they are constantly fighting to stay alive, they might also come up with some tactical solutions that actually make them a good team. I have had to deal with players that couldn't work together, or didn't know how to. I started running a "gritty" style D&D game (Game of Thrones, low hit points, combat is much more dangerous, no magic), and they started working on tactics, and reading the rules so that now I don't have to worry about combat. I give them a level appropriate encounter, and they know how to work their characters better. Also, if they dont' feel threatened by your combats, then this won't work. Kill a PC. Do it in game, with dice, and let it just happen (don't decide "who's gonna die tonight", that looks like a vendetta). Afterwards, point out the tactical mistake that allowed the character to die. They might start to get the message if they have to pay for it with "blood".
Of course, you could also y'know. . . talk with them and point out that their tactics suck. You know them better than we do.

Hallavast
2007-04-13, 04:37 AM
Incidentally, when I'm done with the Red Hand of Doom game, I'm going to post a summary (less than detailed in some bits) as to how encounters went, etc.
You have no idea how much I look forward to this, Bears.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 04:44 AM
...er, it's just a summary of actual play. No need to get THAT excited!

storybookknight
2007-04-13, 12:13 PM
To a certain extent, the character optimization boards are about my character can kill your character. It's fun!

The arguments (in their abstract) exist because people enjoy competition - that's why PvP servers exist in otherwise "cooperative" games like WoW.

That said, they can be such a hassle in game... the only real solution is for the DM to ride herd - not necessarily what the DM wants to be doing. Good luck on dealing with it in your own game!

Person_Man
2007-04-13, 12:59 PM
Sympathy? I thought we were here to laugh at each others D&D stories, steal game ideas, optimize builds, and undermine each others' confidence?

Maryring
2007-04-13, 01:40 PM
That was the old boards. That is no longer. At least it is a lot less like that nowadays.

Hallavast
2007-04-13, 04:59 PM
...er, it's just a summary of actual play. No need to get THAT excited!
Well... within the context of being "excited" about events that occur in a gaming forum anyway. Yeah. I'm thrilled!

ocato
2007-04-13, 05:32 PM
... "to get into our group, you have to beat up the group's bard"...

Why would anyone want to hurt the lovable bard? *sniff* Why doesn't anyone understand us?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-13, 06:00 PM
Best time I ever had with a bard was beating the monk in a duel for party leadership. I got lucky, but still...

Hallavast
2007-04-13, 06:04 PM
Why would anyone want to hurt the lovable bard? *sniff* Why doesn't anyone understand us?
Because you're all hippie beatnicks who've never worked an honest day in their life? :smalltongue:

Orak
2007-04-13, 06:43 PM
I am replying to the original post by Takamari.

I have had lots of players that sized each other up in play sessions. I generally just let them attack each other when they felt that the opportunity was right for it.

One of my most constant battles was two best friends who's characters always ended up feuding in game. Best friends in RL, at each others throats in game. The were playing a priest of war and a mage at one point. The preist charged at a spider but forgot to check out the rest of the room and see the dozen other spiders lurking in the corners. The mage decided that the only way to win the battle was to drop a fireball right in the middle of it (he was probabaly right). But of couse this was centered on the priest. The priest exited the battle alive but scorched. An argument ensued between the characters and the mage decided to walk away. This is when the priest decided to attack the mage from behind. The mage was beaten unconcious.

The next morning the priest woke and was unable to prepare any spells. When he inquired to his god as to why he was told that he violated the rules of war and that he had to apologize. The priest apologized to his god. His god informed him that he was not the one in need of apology, it was the mage that he had to say he was sorry to.

The priest went without spells for a month of game play before he drummed up the hubris to aplologize to his eternal enemy and best friend.

ocato
2007-04-13, 09:24 PM
Because you're all hippie beatnicks who've never worked an honest day in their life? :smalltongue:

Someone's a jealous rogue.

Takamari
2007-04-13, 11:12 PM
Well, since diplomacy in my game modifies what my characters say, I'm not to worried about the diplobard. I think that the bard is a good jack of all trades class, and probabily the best party face there can be...I'm not going to put my stamp of approval on that statement, because there are other classes who do a very good job.

I would love to punish my players for getting onto each other, but sadly, it would be a tpk each night...alas