Frenzied Berserker with Spell Resistance Armour

[Heikold]

Okay, a friend of mine has rolled a ridiculous Fighter1/Barbarian5/Frenzied Berserker10 powerhouse of a Water Orc. This behemoth has a +5 Vicious Greatsword, a 19 Spell Resistance breastplate, Lion Totem Pounce, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. He also has a Belt of Giant Strength and chugs Potions of Enlarge Person like they were zesty beverages.

Seriously. He's a ****ing beast.

Now we in the rest of the party have a problem. He has a Will Save of +2 and can pretty much one-shot any of us if he gets a little overzealous in his frenzy. I was kind of hoping that we could hit him with a Hold Person or something if things go a bit crazy at the end of a fight and just wait until he calms down, but he's got that 19 SR to get past.

Can the Spell Resistance on items be suppressed at will? And if so, can he do so during his frenzy in order to give us a chance of stopping him from killing us?

[Chronos]

Ignore the spell resistance, as it'll almost never matter. He's 16th level, right? So presumably the rest of the party is that level, too. Which means that, even with no optimization, the spellcasters have a caster level of 16. 1d20+16 vs. a DC of 19 means that you'll get through his spell resistance 90% of the time.

[Heikold]

Okay, so Grogg the Betrayer only has a 1 in 10 chance of using us to floss his teeth at the end of each battle.

That's reassuring :smalleek:

[Heikold]

I don't care so much as I'm a Warlock/Telflammar Shadowlord (quite a high powered campaign) so I'll just be "somewhere else" when this happens, but the rest of the party might not be so lucky.

[Seerow]

Grease.


Frenzied Berserker cannot make any dexterity related skill checks while frenzying. That includes the DC10 balance check that grease provokes. Drop a grease under him and sit back and laugh while he slips and falls repeatedly until the frenzy wears off.


Edit: Also make sure to make fun of him for paying so much money for a useless amount of spell resistance. Seriously spell resistance armor is awful and one of the worst traps in the game.

[Blackhawk748]

Edit: Also make sure to make fun of him for paying so much money for a useless amount of spell resistance. Seriously spell resistance armor is awful and one of the worst traps in the game.

Agreed. Also Marbles, their like mundane grease.

[Heikold]

Yeah, I think he just ran out of things to spend money on :smalltongue: - it worries me though as, though it's only a small chance, one failed spell and he'll cut someone in half.

So the plan is to "Grease him up and make him squeal like a piggy"? That could well work.

[Seerow]

Yeah, I think he just ran out of things to spend money on :smalltongue: - it worries me though as, though it's only a small chance, one failed spell and he'll cut someone in half.

So the plan is to "Grease him up and make him squeal like a piggy"? That could well work.

Just grease the floor under him. Spell resistance won't apply. He probably makes the save but it doesn't matter since he then has to deal with the balance check that he physically cannot pass.


Unless he has an always on flight option, that should stop him flat.

[Heikold]

Unless he has an always on flight option, that should stop him flat.

That idea frightens me immensely.

[Vegan Zombie]

After a friendly FB decided to cut my cohort in half during a frenzy one game, I started "suggesting" (forcing) that any FB playing in my group should be picking up the Steadfast Determination feat from PHB 2. The mindarmor crystal also provides it's bonus without having to be activated If I remember correctly.

[Twurps]

Yeah, I think he just ran out of things to spend money on :smalltongue: - it worries me though as, though it's only a small chance, one failed spell and he'll cut someone in half.

He has a will save of +2?! He is nowhere near done spending his money.....
If he was in my party, I'd respectfully ask him to spend his rages out in the woods somewhere far away from us until he managed to get a decent will save.

[Seerow]

He has a will save of +2?! He is nowhere near done spending his money.....
If he was in my party, I'd respectfully ask him to spend his rages out in the woods somewhere far away from us until he managed to get a decent will save.

This is also a fair point.

First because how do you get a +2 will save at level 16? He should have +4 just from level (+1 from barbarian +3 from frenzied berserker). This means he has to not only have no cloak of resistance at all (how did he survive to level 16?) but also has a -2 wisdom mod (seriously why has this guy not been dominated to play some Wizard's pet bodyguard yet?)

It cost 50,000gp to upgrade from a +5 Armor to +5 Spell Resistance Armor.

For that cost he could have picked up a +5 Cloak of Resistance (25,000gp), a Crystal Mask of Mind Armor (10,000gp) and a +4 Wisdom item (16,000gp)

That would have taken his +2 will save up to a +13. Still not good enough to be worth risking the party's survival on, but definitely good enough to have a fighting chance against level appropriate effects.

Also as mentioned there's Steadfast Determination, which will take his presumably -2 wisdom modifier and replace it with a presumably very high con modifier. Even being conservative and saying he has a +5 con mod, that one feat results in a net +7, letting him jump up to a +18 with 15,000gp left over. If the con mod is even 1 point higher he'll pass the DC20 will save to exit frenzy on a one. It does require two feats (Endurance and then Steadfast Determination) but it makes his Frenzy 100% guaranteed to not kill the party (though in situations where he takes a large chunk of damage he's still likely to waste a frenzy on nothing)

[Heikold]

I probably should have mentioned this minor detail:

The guy playing him is a bit of a **** and considers the fallout from his Frenzy to be our problem. He has intentionally got a Will Save of +2 in order to "spice things up a bit".

[Seerow]

I probably should have mentioned this minor detail:

The guy playing him is a bit of a **** and considers the fallout from his Frenzy to be our problem. He has intentionally got a Will Save of +2 in order to "spice things up a bit".

In that case rescind all previous advice involving playing nice with things like marbles and grease, and instead have your party caster spam dominate person on him until he is your mindless puppet. Or rather still cast grease, just start casting dominate person once he is frenzied and helpless to do anything about it thanks to the grease.

Level 16 Wizard with 24 int has a DC22 will save on a level 5 spell, he fails on anything but a natural 20. So you've got a 10% chance of failing to bypass spell resistance (cast assay resistance or something similar right beforehand if you want to make it clear how little spell resistance matters) and a 5% chance of him passing the will save for an 85.5% success rate. Prepare it 3 times just in case, that gives you a .3% chance of failure or a .01% chance of failure if you use assay spell resistance. He is now dominated for the next 16 days. Just recast after 2 weeks (leaving 2 days of leeway in case it fails for whatever reason) and continue about your business.

Then ask him to roll up a character that isn't intentionally trying to screw over the party or don't bother coming back.

[Heikold]

In that case rescind all previous advice involving playing nice with things like marbles and grease, and instead have your party caster spam dominate person on him until he is your mindless puppet. Or rather still cast grease, just start casting dominate person once he is frenzied and helpless to do anything about it thanks to the grease.

Level 16 Wizard with 24 int has a DC22 will save on a level 5 spell, he fails on anything but a natural 20. So you've got a 10% chance of failing to bypass spell resistance (cast assay resistance or something similar right beforehand if you want to make it clear how little spell resistance matters) and a 5% chance of him passing the will save for an 85.5% success rate. Prepare it 3 times just in case, that gives you a .3% chance of failure or a .01% chance of failure if you use assay spell resistance. He is now dominated for the next 16 days. Just recast after 2 weeks (leaving 2 days of leeway in case it fails for whatever reason) and continue about your business.

Then ask him to roll up a character that isn't intentionally trying to screw over the party or don't bother coming back.

That is the nuclear option. I think I'm going to stick with the Grease/marbles response because to be honest, while he is a ****, I find it quite amusing, I just don't particularly want to TPK over it.

[Heikold]

Actually... That's not the nuclear option. The nuclear option is to Mindrape him until he forgets how to Frenzy and possibly thinks he's a chicken.

[Jack_Simth]

In that case rescind all previous advice involving playing nice with things like marbles and grease, and instead have your party caster spam dominate person on him until he is your mindless puppet. Or rather still cast grease, just start casting dominate person once he is frenzied and helpless to do anything about it thanks to the grease.

Level 16 Wizard with 24 int has a DC22 will save on a level 5 spell, he fails on anything but a natural 20. So you've got a 10% chance of failing to bypass spell resistance (cast assay resistance or something similar right beforehand if you want to make it clear how little spell resistance matters) and a 5% chance of him passing the will save for an 85.5% success rate. Prepare it 3 times just in case, that gives you a .3% chance of failure or a .01% chance of failure if you use assay spell resistance. He is now dominated for the next 16 days. Just recast after 2 weeks (leaving 2 days of leeway in case it fails for whatever reason) and continue about your business.

Then ask him to roll up a character that isn't intentionally trying to screw over the party or don't bother coming back.

Heh.

Just don't give him any orders beyond something along the lines of "Close your eyes and stay Prone until your frenzy expires". Sure, he can still try to attack (which his ability demands he do). But he'll be crawling, attacking from Prone, and suffering a 50% miss chance assuming he has the Listen check to locate anyone in the first place. Just walk faster than he crawls (not hard) and you're fine. Extend the spell and you'll only need to renew it once a month.

If that is the only order you ever give him, he gets to act as he pleases the rest of the time (other than the one round a day where you concentrate on the spell). If you only give him that order once all opponents are down, he still gets to kill stuff. And, of course, if someone else does take advantage of that pesky +2 Will save? Well, your Charisma check vs. the opponent's charisma check can get him out of trouble.

[Chronos]

Quoth Seerow:

If the con mod is even 1 point higher he'll pass the DC20 will save to exit frenzy on a one.
Nope, natural ones still fail, unless you're a high-level knight. Steadfast Determination bypasses that limit for Fort saves, but not for Will.

[Tvtyrant]

Bind a possesor demon and have it possess him. It takes control when he frenzies but otherwise lets him do as he likes.

[Crake]

Bind a possesor demon and have it possess him. It takes control when he frenzies but otherwise lets him do as he likes.

Yes, this sounds like an amazing idea, not like the fiend will only pretend to let him do as he likes while he's not frenzying or anything.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, this sounds like an amazing idea, not like the fiend will only pretend to let him do as he likes while he's not frenzying or anything.

You bind it, you instruct it. Besides which I think a FB who has decided that murdering the rest of the party is their problem is already committing PVP, and turn about is fair play. Worst case scenario you mindrape/+geas the demon to make sure it follows the contract forever.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Actually... That's not the nuclear option. The nuclear option is to Mindrape him until he forgets how to Frenzy and possibly thinks he's a chicken.


Yes, this sounds like an amazing idea, not like the fiend will only pretend to let him do as he likes while he's not frenzying or anything.

See, where as Mindrape is the nuclear option, here ya just nuke the other target. Now the demon has the mentality of the holiest of holy angels. And angels don't let people hurt their friends, because we like our friends.:smallbiggrin:

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm with Seerow on this one. That sort of cavalier disregard for the well-being of all the other PCs has no place in 97% of games - the remaining 3% being games where at least one party member is openly chaotic evil and has no prior attachment to the other party members.

Nuke or puppet him at the first excuse to with extreme prejudice. I sure would.

Frenzied Berserker is "banned unless specifically approved" at all my tables and will remain so for a very good reason.

Also, I'm laughing my butt off at the guy thinking his SR armor helps him at all. As written, SR-granting items are so useless it's ridiculous, with the exception of level 19 and 20 characters buying custom items with sufficient SR. I'm serious - look at the MIC, and look at the WBL table, and note how poorly the two match, considering that the baseline caster level check to overcome SR is equal to class level with a d20 added onto it. CR-appropriate fixed SR isn't even purchaseable under the WBL rules (remember, it's broken down by categories) until level 19 or so. Hilariously, the only thing SR19 will be effective against will be the beneficial Cure X Wounds/Vigor wands the party will probably use for cheap healing - as they are assumed to be at minimum caster level, a Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor wand will fail on an 18 or lower, preventing any real magical healing.

If he wants it to matter, and the DM was okay with it, you could always rebalance it as something like, with each one requiring all the previous ones as prerequisites, SR5+HD (+1), SR7+HD (+1), SR9+HD (+1), SR11+HD (+1), SR13+HD (+1), SR15+HD (+1). That would mean that for a total +5 armor, you could have a 50% chance to shrug off SR:Yes spells from a CR-appropriate wizard boss, which is a fair price in my book, and further investment (going all the way up to +7 effective and preventing you from putting much else on it) would let you specialize in anti-caster stuff. A base-line investment serves as at least a speedbump of sorts (i.e. not totally pointless). Maybe throw in an additional +1 option to make the SR able to be toggled as a free, out-of-turn-viable (but not immediate!) mental action, or just not apply to beneficial spells, if you want.

[Chronos]

I agree with those suggesting Dominate in this case. He considers going out of control to be your problem? Then he can't complain about the way you choose to solve it. He doesn't like having his free will taken away? Well, now, that's his problem.

[elonin]

I agree with the dominate option.

[Kazuel]

Dominating seems to be the best way. It sends the message, "when you make something's my problem, don't complain when I solve it".

[AnonymousPepper]

And I mean, he's deliberately lowering his will save. You're just taking him up on his offer to make things more interesting.

You know, before some bad guy does. >_>

[Kraken]

Be hilarious and solve the problem with silent image. Just create the illusion of an enemy and have the enemy kite him far away or lure him into some comical trap. Or create a recurring adversary for him, that always seems to get away somehow. It doesn't sound like it'd take much to convince the character in game that the adversary was real, so that you could write off any situation where they actually made the will save against the illusion as trickery on the part of the adversary. Edit: if you do use silent image (as opposed to major image or something that would include sound), have the adversary be an evil assassin mime (http://www.wallconvert.com/wallpapers/anime/evil-mr-mime-15150.html), to explain the silence. :smallbiggrin:

[Heikold]

Be hilarious and solve the problem with silent image. Just create the illusion of an enemy and have the enemy kite him far away or lure him into some comical trap. Or create a recurring adversary for him, that always seems to get away somehow. It doesn't sound like it'd take much to convince the character in game that the adversary was real, so that you could write off any situation where they actually made the will save against the illusion as trickery on the part of the adversary. Edit: if you do use silent image (as opposed to major image or something that would include sound), have the adversary be an evil assassin mime (http://www.wallconvert.com/wallpapers/anime/evil-mr-mime-15150.html), to explain the silence. :smallbiggrin:

That is GENIUS. I'm a warlock with quickened Flee the Scene so I could use that at a pinch. Otherwise I could just buy a wand of Silent Image.

Evil assassin mime. Best plan ever.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't even both mind raping or possessing him. Just Spectral Hand tap him with Plane Shift. Send him to the elemental plane of air and tell him you'll retrieve him when he wants to be a team player.

Check on him every fee days to float him a loaf of bread and to see if he's willing to change his tune.

[lord_khaine]

I'm with Seerow on this one. That sort of cavalier disregard for the well-being of all the other PCs has no place in 97% of games - the remaining 3% being games where at least one party member is openly chaotic evil and has no prior attachment to the other party members.

Nuke or puppet him at the first excuse to with extreme prejudice. I sure would.

Frenzied Berserker is "banned unless specifically approved" at all my tables and will remain so for a very good reason.

I fully support this sentiment as well. to start with i think FB is a horrible prestice class because it gives you a lot of melee power at the expense of the rest of your party.

And when the guy then intentionally lowers his will save hoping to catch someone off guard? then he honestly deserve to be disposed off IMO.

[Doctor Awkward]

Okay, a friend of mine has rolled a ridiculous Fighter1/Barbarian5/Frenzied Berserker10 powerhouse of a Water Orc. This behemoth has a +5 Vicious Greatsword, a 19 Spell Resistance breastplate, Lion Totem Pounce, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. He also has a Belt of Giant Strength and chugs Potions of Enlarge Person like they were zesty beverages.

Seriously. He's a ****ing beast.

Now we in the rest of the party have a problem. He has a Will Save of +2 and can pretty much one-shot any of us if he gets a little overzealous in his frenzy. I was kind of hoping that we could hit him with a Hold Person or something if things go a bit crazy at the end of a fight and just wait until he calms down, but he's got that 19 SR to get past.

Can the Spell Resistance on items be suppressed at will? And if so, can he do so during his frenzy in order to give us a chance of stopping him from killing us?

I lost count of the number of ways an equal level wizard could deal with this problem.

1. Reverse Gravity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm) Have the party stand around and throw pebbles at him until the Frenzy ends.

2. Mass Invisibility. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityMass.htm) Cast it on the rest of the party. Preferably in the same round he frenzy's. Now he gets to have all of the fun. If the wizard wants to he can cast fly on himself and as many other party members want it, so they also can throw pebbles at him until the Frenzy ends.

3. Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) was already mentioned. I don't recommend this, since you will have a tougher time hitting him with pebbles because he will be prone...

4. Sleet Storm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) This is basically like Grease, but also has darkness. So now his speed is cut in half. Unfortunately this method also negates pebbles. But it does give you the option of just leaving him there and continuing the adventure.

5. Assay Spell Resistance is in the SpC. Now you don't even have to roll to beat his SR with thing's like Hold Person, Plane Shift, Dominate, etc...

6. Fly. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) Seriously, just fly. If he cannot fly, he loses to anything that can. Full stop.
Except for Assay, all of that is core.

[Heikold]

I get that in a lot of parties this would be a major "No, go roll something else" thing, but we really do all find the concept pretty funny and the entire group consents to him acting this way. It's another challenge for us and it's a bit of an in joke that this player keeps playing variations on the same orc/half-orc barbarian in pretty much every game he's ever in. Grogg has become like a lovable psychotic mascot for the group that we have to keep an eye on like a giant untrained puppy with a greataxe.

I also should point out though that whilst a couple of people haven't rolled up their characters just yet, I'm the only spellcaster so far (our brief was that we have to be Tier 4 and below for base classes, but we can multi/PRC all we like - the DM largely wants to see what we come up with) and I have one level of Assassin and four levels of Telflammar Shadowlord (also 6 levels of Warlock, but the flexibility of that class is rather limited). Magic is therefore not so much of an option beyond what I can cast or buy in wands.

So yeah, I could Shadow Walk him to the edge of the plane of shadow and leave him there until he's ready to behave, but I kind of don't want him to. I just wanted a means of saving our asses if he's on the verge of TPKing us! In general I think I'm going to stick to the less nuclear options like Grease, marbles and tricking him into chasing an illusory mime until he tuckers himself out and goes to sleep on a pile of corpses. Thanks to everyone that contributed ;)

The rest of the party has decided to create a Defcon system for Grogg actually:

Defcon 5: Everything is calm. Grogg is prevented from talking to anyone in case it gets less calm.
Defcon 4: A fight may be about to break out. Grogg is allowed to use Intimidate checks and look menacing/muscular.
Defcon 3: A fight has broken out in somewhere that we care about/own. Grogg is allowed to hit things that we tell him to hit. Grogg is to do his anger exercises and not go into Rage or Frenzy.
Defcon 2: A fight has broken out in somewhere that we don't care about. Grogg is allowed to go into Rage, but is to avoid going into Frenzy.
Defcon 1: The party is in serious danger and we need Grogg to lay the smacketh down - to hell with the consequences. Grogg may Frenzy and may the gods have mercy on our souls.

[AnonymousPepper]

Then yeah, I'd just have a Dominate ready. Just command him to act as he normally would when the duration of the rage wears off and then it's as if he's not dominated all. It's a perfect way to deal with him, with that low Will save and non-existent SR.

I'd be very worried about someone ELSE dominating him, though, enough that I'd just leave him permanently under the Dominate if it were me.