Dex Based barbarian?

[Alikat]

I just got my 5e books yesterday, read about half the players handbook so far and the character concept I'm most drawn to is a wood elf barbarian, always liked the fluff of a vicious feral elf with her teeth all filed to fangs.. However the barbarian class features don't seem to allow for a dex based melee build, rage damage bonuses only effect str based attacks, and the capstone ability is str/con. Do you think making those abilities str OR dex is unbalancing or nonsensical with the mechanics or would you allow it?

Character I'm imagining would use a 27 point build, starting array: 10/17/15/10/12/10, at lvl 20 with all ASI's would end up 10/24/24/10/12/10. The character would dual wield short swords made from sharpened bones, most likely take the eagle totemist path so she can fly through treetops, and fight pretty much naked, with unarmored defense and those ability scores would end up at 24 ac. With wood elf/outlander would be proficient with perception, athletics, survival, nature, and handle animal and likely take sylvan as the outlander language just to stick with the theme.

Would you allow it in your game?

[Giant2005]

It might be a bit unbalanced but not by a huge margin.
Basically the Barbarian's abilities are half Dex and half Str, the class is balanced around the character being good at either the Str-related abilities or the Dex-related abilities but not both. Both Dex and Str are relatively balanced with one another with the Dex having a slight advantage.
The thing is that the Barbarian that excels at only half of his abilities is balanced against all of the other classes. By letting him make full use of all of his abilities in the one build (Without sacrificing anything), he would no longer be balanced with the others. Although the Str abilities really don't bring too much to the table - not enough for it to really be worth worrying about imo.
Still... You are probably better off using a homebrew subclass like this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5earchetypes/showentry.php?e=22&catid=1) one in order to preserve balance. Gaining the ability to use Dex for your Str-related abilities is unbalanced but not if you have to give up your totem abilities to do so.

[Alikat]

That's fair enough, I thought it would be on par with the numbers an str based medium armor wearing mountain dwarf barbarian can reach. I just like nice round numbers and hate that it's impossible for an elf to reach 24/24 numbers with an str based build, plus a super high strength score doesn't feel right with the fluff of the character I had in mind.

[Alikat]

Just to compare numbers for the build I would want doing it by RAW:

Dex wood elf barb:
10/17/15/10/14/8 lvl 1: ac 16 w/scalemail
16/20/24/10/14/8 lvl 20: ac 22 w/no armor
Can catch your str up enough to make rage/str attacks worthwhile but doesnt happen until lvl 20, your primary class feature is mostly useless for most the game.

str wood elf barb:
15/14/15/8/14/8 lvl 1, ac 16 w/scalemail
24/14/24/8/14/8 lvl 20 ac 19 w/no armor
3 less ac, damage potential way higher w/rage, reckless attack, etc.

str based mountain dwarf barb:
17/14/17/8/10/8 lvl 1 ac 16 w/scalemail,
Better starting dmg potential and hp,same ac, only loses out in wis based skill modifiers.
24/18/24/8/10/8 lvl 20, ac 21 w/no armor.
Reaches 20 str/con cap at lvl 12, allowing it to actually have higher dex/ac than a wood elf who doesnt get there til lvl 19. Or you could skip the 4 dex and grab a couple feats.

I dunno, I dont think allowing a dex based elf barb is too much, it gets a few more points of ac than an str barb but takes way longer to hit its max potential compared to an optimized str dwarf.

[Ralanr]

Wouldn't using two shortswords after a certain point be detrimental? I know dual wielding requires you to use your bonus action to hit with your offhand weapon, which is the same action you use to enter rage. Sure you'll be hitting more than you'll be entering rage, but on the turns you are entering rage you'd only be able to attack with your main hand weapon (It's confusing to me how if you have multiple attacks in your attack action, you still only get to hit once with your offhand since it requires a bonus action).

Honestly if you're worried about AC, you could swap out the offhand weapon for a shield for +2.

[Alikat]

I'm not worried about AC. I wanted to make a character with a certain flavor to it, just so happen that it ends up with super high ac. And ew shields. No.

Iterative attacks don't also grant addition offhand attacks.. just got that far in the book actually. That sucks. Makes dual wielding less than appealing, even with the dual wield feat.. it doesn't have near the potential of great weapon master/polearm master. Seems to me that sets the iterative attacks of a fighter far above the potential of a barbarian too.

[Mandragola]

I'm pretty sure it would be considerably unbalanced, yes. The problem is your AC, which would be enormous. A strength-based barbarian, as designed, first wants to put his strength up to 20, to hit things hard. Only then can he raise his AC. The dex-based guy gets AC and hits hard at the same time. Also a strength-based barbarian needs strength, dex and con. You would only need dex and con so you could have less strength - for no meaningful penalty - and increase your other stats like wisdom.

So compared to a strength-based guy you'd be harder to hit, better at dex-based stuff (and dex covers a lot more stuff than strength) and you'd probably have a way better perception score and wisdom save.

Also, just a matter of opinion but to me it just doesn't feel right to be raging and then fence with a rapier or shortsword. If you're raging you should be smashing things with a massive axe or a hammer or something. A dexterous barbarian just doesn't work for me.

An out-doorsy dex-based dual-wielding wood elf says "ranger" to me. It does not say barbarian. Sorry.

[Ralanr]

I'm pretty sure it would be considerably unbalanced, yes. The problem is your AC, which would be enormous. A strength-based barbarian, as designed, first wants to put his strength up to 20, to hit things hard. Only then can he raise his AC. The dex-based guy gets AC and hits hard at the same time. Also a strength-based barbarian needs strength, dex and con. You would only need dex and con so you could have less strength - for no meaningful penalty - and increase your other stats like wisdom.

So compared to a strength-based guy you'd be harder to hit, better at dex-based stuff (and dex covers a lot more stuff than strength) and you'd probably have a way better perception score and wisdom save.

Also, just a matter of opinion but to me it just doesn't feel right to be raging and then fence with a rapier or shortsword. If you're raging you should be smashing things with a massive axe or a hammer or something. A dexterous barbarian just doesn't work for me.

An out-doorsy dex-based dual-wielding wood elf says "ranger" to me. It does not say barbarian. Sorry.

That and dex doesn't have access to the only weapons with multiple damage die. But that's off topic.

Compared to fighters, Barbarians are not very versatile. I remember there was a huge discussion about complaints that someone couldn't make a good ranged based barbarian because all bows were dex based and rage damage didn't apply to ranged attacks.

AC isn't as important in this addition as it was in previous ones, yes you don't want a low AC, but being in the medium range (basically 16 and 17 if I understand it) isn't a bad thing.

Personally I'd go strict no on apply dex for all the barb strength damage stuff. I feel your AC would get too ridiculous, you wouldn't need to ever attack in melee unless you wanted to (Which isn't a really good reason to say no since people do the kind of combat they like anyway. I have a wizard friend who beat a bard's shins in with a lead pipe...he forgot he had spells) and it also makes the barbarian cap ability seem pointless (But then you could change it to +4 dex! Which also streams the barbarian into not being versatile in builds).

[Alikat]

Well, as I showed it's only a 3ac difference from a considerably more effective dwarf barbarian.

And I wasn't imagining 'fencing' so much as the artwork on a couple old magic cards, a violent frenzy of attacks can still be dex based imo, not just "hammer smash!!"

http://a5.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/image/upload/c_pad,h_300,w_300/v1/Images/Products/mtg%20art/Urzas%20Saga/full/Fortitude.jpg http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6133&type=card

[Wolfsraine]

With a 27 point buy your starting stats can be, 16, 16, 16, 8, 11, 8 before race bumps. Wood elf brings it to 16, 18, 16, 8, 12, 8. At 20 with ASI's you would be at 24, 20, 24, 8, 12, 8. Seems pretty strong. 22 AC and you hit hard.

I'd say this fits a feral elf thats agile and strong as ****. You can even pick up great weapon master in place of one of you Str or Dex ASI's if you wanted to do even more damage.

Anyway, the tools are there to make what you want, I see no reason to change the class to accommodate a DEX increase in place of the STR.

[Ralanr]

Well, as I showed it's only a 3ac difference from a considerably more effective dwarf barbarian.

And I wasn't imagining 'fencing' so much as the artwork on a couple old magic cards, a violent frenzy of attacks can still be dex based imo, not just "hammer smash!!"

http://a5.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/image/upload/c_pad,h_300,w_300/v1/Images/Products/mtg%20art/Urzas%20Saga/full/Fortitude.jpg http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6133&type=card

This is very true. I know Drizzt from Forgotten Realms as had some rage moments (I can't name them. I haven't read in a while and only read up to book six. Tv tropes knowledge without spoilers)

How do you feel about dual/multi classing?

[Alikat]

I don't want to dual/multiclass for my first campaign in 5th. But I'll be open to it in the future.

Wolfsraine how are you getting those numbers? I'm going by the 27 point build in the PHB which has much different values for the numbers. It even gives an example of 15/15/15/8/8/8.

edit: If you can show me how you got those numbers, I'd totally play that character, but it's not adding up for me?

http://i.gyazo.com/760d4421b2f0dfd3b60bfcf0e8602931.png

[-Jynx-]

With a 27 point buy your starting stats can be, 16, 16, 16, 8, 11, 8 before race bumps. Wood elf brings it to 16, 18, 16, 8, 12, 8. At 20 with ASI's you would be at 24, 20, 24, 8, 12, 8. Seems pretty strong. 22 AC and you hit hard.

I'd say this fits a feral elf thats agile and strong as ****. You can even pick up great weapon master in place of one of you Str or Dex ASI's if you wanted to do even more damage.

Anyway, the tools are there to make what you want, I see no reason to change the class to accommodate a DEX increase in place of the STR.

Your point buy is off. Best you could do is 15 15 15 8 8 8. More realistically you'd shoot for 16, 14, 14, 8, 9, 8 to give you 18, 14, 14, 8, 10, 8 after racial bonus.

Really a dex based Barbarian I would think would just end up lacking. Con gives you HP/AC, Str gives you dmg but also increases during rage which is your bread and butter. Dex can also give you dmg outside of rage on a finesse weapon and can give you AC but I don't see that being as helpful as raising str first and probably con second.

From a flavor standpoint, while a wood elf dex barbarian sounds neat... It really just doesn't have the baby shaking potential a str based barbarian would... and really who doesn't play barbarian for the baby shaking potential?

[Mandragola]

Those look like strength-based characters on the cards - especially the one with axes! Maybe they are high level wood elf barbarians who've had time to cap their strength.

Starting wood elf dex-based barbarian might have S10, D17, C15, I10, W14, C8 - or something like that. The dwarf has S17, D14, C17, I8, W10, C8.

So the dwarf gets an extra hp per level. The elf gets better initiative and has a far more even spread of stats. He can function very effectively as the party scout with his great dex, wisdom and free proficiency in perception.

The dwarf has the option of using a two-hander, which does hit harder than the elf can, but if they use shields they've got the same D8+3(5 if raging) damage.

From level 4 onwards the wood elf dumps his armour, as his AC hits 17. Then it just keeps going up every level till 16.

It's just wrong to say that the dwarf caps earlier. Both cap their attacking stat at level 8. The dwarf caps his con at 12 while the elf caps his at 16, but meanwhile the dwarf now has to start out raising his dex up - and will never catch the wood elf. The dwarf would like to have 20 dex too for his own AC but he can't get it because he runs out of ASIs. Meanwhile the wood elf never has to raise his strength so he actually has a spare ASI to do whatever he wants with.

Strength barbarians need 3 stats: strength, con and then dex. A theoretical dex barbarian would only need two: dex and con. That's a really big advantage which would allow them to raise other stats substantially.

Weirdest thing is the potential for a stout halfling barbarian. He'd be able to start out with 16s in Str and Con, wielding a rapier and shield for AC18 at level 1, unarmoured.

A strength-based wood elf barbarian could work. You could have starting stats of 15, 16, 15, 8, 11, 8. Or have 14 dex and wisdom if you prefer. You'd be behind the dwarves until you capped your strength, but your AC would be good and you could use a bow and sneak around better than they could. It's not optimal but it's viable, I'd say.

[-Jynx-]

Also...

If you're rolling around with Bear totems dmg resistance, and using reckless attacks (because I mean... why not you're taking half damage champ) It would make more sense to up your damage as much as possible (which would be STR especially during rage) and upping con for more HP to absorb hits and boost AC.

I see the argument for Dex/Con giving you more AC in the long run but once you start using reckless attacks giving your enemies advantage against you what's another 1-2 AC?

[Ralanr]

Also...

If you're rolling around with Bear totems dmg resistance, and using reckless attacks (because I mean... why not you're taking half damage champ) It would make more sense to up your damage as much as possible (which would be STR especially during rage) and upping con for more HP to absorb hits and boost AC.

I see the argument for Dex/Con giving you more AC in the long run but once you start using reckless attacks giving your enemies advantage against you what's another 1-2 AC?

Be careful of the reckless attack drawback. Sure we barbarians can take half damage from pretty much anything (Except psychic powers...headaches man) but the best alternative to taking damage is to not take damage. Reckless attack is best used when there aren't many enemies left/that can get to you and/or can hit you before your next turn. Giving all enemies advantage on attacks against you can be a death certificate.

[Alikat]

Aaaand I just figured out damage resistance means 1/2 lol. I was wondering why rage and bear totem didn't have values listed. I was expecting to see a flat number like how 3.5 works.

[SharkForce]

AC gets more important the more of it you have. especially when enemies get advantage.

if you have AC 15, going to 16... not a huge deal. especially at high levels

if you have AC 20, going to 21... pretty significant at low levels, somewhat less so at high levels.

if you somehow can get your AC up to 25, you're equal to the avatar of a deity in that respect, and even the mightiest warriors will struggle to hit you reliably (about 35% of the time for a standard melee build at level 20, or only 10% of the time if they use GWM; increase percentages by 10 for ranged builds with access to the appropriate style).

if you get really ridiculous and have, say, full plate +3, a shield +3, a ring of protection, +1 AC from fighting style, a shield of faith buff for +2, and a haste active for another +2, and some other protective spell the name of which I can't remember but which increases AC by 1 as well as making someone else take half your damage for you, and as a result have AC 33, well... there isn't much in existence that can hit your AC anything like reliably. also, you got ridiculously lucky in your treasure rolls, and apparently have a party that doesn't mind giving up their concentration slot to buffing you.

anyways, basically, the more AC you can get, the better additional AC is until you've knocked your enemies completely off the die and they're relying on 20s to hit. 22 AC (20 dex, 20 con, and a shield) is already very strong. nobody else can match you without using magic at that point, which seems a bit off, to say the least. letting you get easy access to that without suffering in your offensive effectiveness seems a bit much.

[Xetheral]

Be careful of the reckless attack drawback. Sure we barbarians can take half damage from pretty much anything (Except psychic powers...headaches man) but the best alternative to taking damage is to not take damage. Reckless attack is best used when there aren't many enemies left/that can get to you and/or can hit you before your next turn. Giving all enemies advantage on attacks against you can be a death certificate.

Reckless Attack is also one of the few things that can conceivably "tank" a large number of enemies at once by incentivizing them to attack you right now. With Rage going you at least have a roughly-similar chance to survive as most other martial characters do when focused-fired despite granting advantage.

[Ralanr]

Aaaand I just figured out damage resistance means 1/2 lol. I was wondering why rage and bear totem didn't have values listed. I was expecting to see a flat number like how 3.5 works.

Which is why 3rd level bear totem rage is one of the best abilities in the game. :smallbiggrin:


Reckless Attack is also one of the few things that can conceivably "tank" a large number of enemies at once by incentivizing them to attack you right now. With Rage going you at least have a roughly-similar chance to survive as most other martial characters do when focused-fired despite granting advantage.

True, I just find myself playing too safely sometimes. Even at 60 HP (Level 5, been using the average rate plus my con mod) I see my health drain a bit more quickly than I'd like it to. Granted I have an AC of 19 and my teammates health lowers faster. I should probably use it more, probably in my next session if my group can bring down the amount of monsters from 19 to something more in the single digits.

[Gavran]

I'm building a wood elf "barbarian" myself (re-fluffing rages, no mindless mouth frothing for me thanks. More of a focused brutal display of strength - like an animal dominance contest), and while his Strength definitely starts lower than a dwarf's, I think in this edition that'll be basically fine. I'm not trying to ignore Strength though, just planning to start with a Dex probably equal to it (no game for him, so no rolling/point buying to be totally sure what the numbers would be.)

I think just semi-balancing Str/Dex is probably your best bet too.

[Alikat]

I'm good with the mindless frothing I just think there are more ways to display animalistic viciousness than just being a brute. :)

The other wood elf barbarian image I always loved, I liked the way Mortal Online flavored their elves, tribal and primitive.

http://www.mortalonline.com/files/races/Veela.jpg

Thanks Sharkforce, being new to the edition I was still applying 3.5 values to stuff like ac, and 20-24ac in that edition isn't a whole ton, I've made more than a few characters who were at those values at level 1. Your post put it in better perspective for me.

I feel like a dex based build for this concept just isn't going to work while staying a barbarian. Going to use the str build and just deal with being a bit behind what a dwarf of the same class can achieve. Will start 15/14/15/8/14/8 or maybe 15/16/15/8/10/8 so I can get to an armorless concept easier.

Worst case scenario, I rolled triple 18's using the 4d6 method for a campaign we never ended up playing, my DM promised I could reuse the role in a future game, was saving it for something MAD in 3.5 but this might be it lol. :smallbiggrin:

[Ralanr]

I'm good with the mindless frothing I just think there are more ways to display animalistic viciousness than just being a brute. :)



Only to the limits of your own imagination.

[Wolfsraine]

I don't want to dual/multiclass for my first campaign in 5th. But I'll be open to it in the future.

Wolfsraine how are you getting those numbers? I'm going by the 27 point build in the PHB which has much different values for the numbers. It even gives an example of 15/15/15/8/8/8.

edit: If you can show me how you got those numbers, I'd totally play that character, but it's not adding up for me?

http://i.gyazo.com/760d4421b2f0dfd3b60bfcf0e8602931.png

Oh, I just googled point buy calculator, didn't actually realize there were different ones. We always roll for stats whenever I play. Anywho, you can still get away with stats close to what I posted.

15, 17, 15, 8, 9, 8 before asi's

24, 18, 22, 8, 10, 8 after asi's

or 22, 20, 22, 8, 10, 8 if you wanted

I'll still stand by my previous statement that the tools are there to do what you want without having to change it.

[Gavran]

I'm good with the mindless frothing I just think there are more ways to display animalistic viciousness than just being a brute. :)

Badgers come to mind for me. Not sure why. They just seem vicious and not quite bear-like.

I'm with you on the tribal-ish feel for the Elfbarian too. I don't know how primitive I want to go, probably more "eschews civilization" than "doesn't know what civilization is." Either way though it's a fun take, and I like that it reminds people elves aren't just archers and casters - they have warriors too.

[M Placeholder]

Elf barbarian you say?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406110-Dragonlance-Races-The-Kagonesti

The kagonesti should really be a different subrace I feel, so I whipped up a subrace. Ill have feats done up sometime.

[SharkForce]

out of curiosity, have you considered describing your character as a barbarian without taking the barbarian class? with a relatively minor tweak (martial arts and flurry of blows bonus attacks can come from a weapon you're using or one in the off hand, but still only does martial arts damage for the extra attacks), you could have a totallynotareskinnedmonkTM version of the barbarian that would probably do most of what you want it to do. open hand probably fits a barbarian theme best (some of the higher level monk abilities may not fit quite right... see how your DM feels about replacing them. for example, tongue of the sun and moon? not very barbarian-ish. ask if you can swap in the totem warrior rituals instead, perhaps. and empty body? again, not very barbarian-ish... but what if it gave you the eagle totem ability you were looking for when you spend a few ki points instead? most other abilities can be simply attributed to toughness of mind and body rather than mastery of mind and body)

maybe mix in some rogue or ranger levels if you feel it necessary.

and just think of it as spending rage points instead of ki points (likewise with spells if you splash in some ranger... have vocal components be screaming or yelling warcries, somatic components could include foot stomps, drumming on your own body, acrobatic leaps, or similar.

though, personally, i'd take the opportunity to use kamas (read: sickles). somehow they just feel more intimidating than short swords :P