Alignment Check for fellow player.

[M Placeholder]

Hi everyone, I need some advice about the alignment of a fellow player.


Okay, so Im a Gnome Bard (CG), and he is a Human Barbarian (TN). We are level 2, but were level one when it happened. Both are characters are pretty young (42 for me, and 20 for the Barbarian). The other party members are a wild mage, a dwarf fighter and an Elf Druid.

His character has dumped both Int and Wis (Both 8, and he has described his character as strong willed and loyal), while he has high Charisma, Strength, Dex and Consititution (All above 15). That makes him really susceptable to any sort of mind control and illusion effects, and a potential liability in battle, as he is arrogant and generally has no idea of how much danger he is in, as the following will make clear.

So, we are in a magic shop in Waterdeep, and the sorcerer and the wizard who owns the shop have a discussion about arcane magic. I said that I was an arcane caster too. The wizard then says that Im a fake caster, and that I cannot lend any of the books from the shop. He then asks me to leave. I say that that I am an arcane caster, and was trying to persuade him, when the barbarian throws me out the shop by grabbing me and then kicking me out into the street into a pile of garbage, causing 1d4 of damage.

I then think about revenge, and when we are walking down a flight of stairs, at the last few sets of stairs, I think about casting an illusion to trip him up and make him fall head over heals (I describe this out loud), but I decide against it.

Later, after a mission to collect rare flowers after he had insulted me, I cast prestigitation on the hilt of his blade, soiling it and making it harder to pick up, and then I cast the same spell on this loincloth (the only clothing he has on him), soiling it. He notices it, and tries to grab me, but I escape and blow a raspberry at him.

Then, we hear the sounds of battle, and fighting. I go first to check it out. At the top of the flight of stairs, his character tries to push me down the stairs (about 30 foot), but he is not quick enough. My character does not notice it, but the rest of the group do.

Then later, on another mission, we come across two Kobolds in a basement who claim that they own the house and brought it from the mentally ill old woman. I notice that one of them is holding a baby, and to my characters horror, it looks gnomish. I try to get a closer look, but I cannot. I go to investigate a tunnel, and lo and behold, it is full of traps. Then one of the Kobolds raises the alarm and says that he is going to get the guards. The barbarian, through all this, is nonchalant and constantly badmouthing the gnome, totally unsympathetic to the situation. I have ample reason to belive this could be a hostage situation.

The guard arrives, and there are 10 kobolds, and they are pointing arrows at us. Needless to say, most of them are pointed towards me. They tell us to leave. I drop all of my posessions as a show of faith (bag with instruments, all weapons, spell components) , and then ask if I can please see the baby, to at least ease my mind. The barbarian tries to intimidate me (not the first time he has tried to do this). I tell him "You really think you intimidate me, when there are 10 kobolds with bows and arrows, and they've probably trapped the room?" and go to the baby. I see that its probably a gnome, and realizing that if I do anything, we and the baby will probably be killed. I plan to work something out later. The barbarian picks all my weapons up.

I am quite obviously shaken and quite upset. When I ask him to give them back, he tells me he does not have them. Given that he is wearing just a loincloth, not to mention I can see them, I don't by it for a minute. He tells me he will give them back to me, plus the sling he shoved down his loincloth if I say sorry to him. I do, I say "Im sorry" to him. He gives me them back and I say to him "Im sorry that you are so base and without morals that you would take the possesions of a negotiator in a possible hostage situation who had 10 of his mortal enemies pointing arrows towards him, then lie to his face, and refuse to give them back unless he swallowed his pride".

I go to the church of Garl Glittergold, and ask for guidance and pray that the baby will be okay. I plan on telling our boss (who is a gnome), but several of the group cut me off. I will probably go back to the church of CG later and tell the church to keep any action low key. A Gnome-Kobold bloodbath on the streets of the city of splendors is the last thing I want.


So, after all that, do I have a case for asking the DM to make his character take an allignment check on the Good - Evil and the Lawful - Chaotic Axis?

[JAL_1138]

This sounds like something better resolved OOC rather than by an alignment check. Try to sit down and talk to both the DM and the player together about your issues.

[Ralanr]

Hi everyone, I need some advice about the alignment of a fellow player.


Okay, so Im a Gnome Bard (CG), and he is a Human Barbarian (TN). We are level 2, but were level one when it happened. Both are characters are pretty young (42 for me, and 20 for the Barbarian). The other party members are a wild mage, a dwarf fighter and an Elf Druid.

His character has dumped both Int and Wis (Both 8, and he has described his character as strong willed and loyal), while he has high Charisma, Strength, Dex and Consititution (All above 15). That makes him really susceptable to any sort of mind control and illusion effects, and a potential liability in battle, as he is arrogant and generally has no idea of how much danger he is in, as the following will make clear.

So, we are in a magic shop in Waterdeep, and the sorcerer and the wizard who owns the shop have a discussion about arcane magic. I said that I was an arcane caster too. The wizard then says that Im a fake caster, and that I cannot lend any of the books from the shop. He then asks me to leave. I say that that I am an arcane caster, and was trying to persuade him, when the barbarian throws me out the shop by grabbing me and then kicking me out into the street into a pile of garbage, causing 1d4 of damage.

I then think about revenge, and when we are walking down a flight of stairs, at the last few sets of stairs, I think about casting an illusion to trip him up and make him fall head over heals (I describe this out loud), but I decide against it.

Later, after a mission to collect rare flowers after he had insulted me, I cast prestigitation on the hilt of his blade, soiling it and making it harder to pick up, and then I cast the same spell on this loincloth (the only clothing he has on him), soiling it. He notices it, and tries to grab me, but I escape and blow a raspberry at him.

Then, we hear the sounds of battle, and fighting. I go first to check it out. At the top of the flight of stairs, his character tries to push me down the stairs (about 30 foot), but he is not quick enough. My character does not notice it, but the rest of the group do.

Then later, on another mission, we come across two Kobolds in a basement who claim that they own the house and brought it from the mentally ill old woman. I notice that one of them is holding a baby, and to my characters horror, it looks gnomish. I try to get a closer look, but I cannot. I go to investigate a tunnel, and lo and behold, it is full of traps. Then one of the Kobolds raises the alarm and says that he is going to get the guards. The barbarian, through all this, is nonchalant and constantly badmouthing the gnome, totally unsympathetic to the situation. I have ample reason to belive this could be a hostage situation.

The guard arrives, and there are 10 kobolds, and they are pointing arrows at us. Needless to say, most of them are pointed towards me. They tell us to leave. I drop all of my posessions as a show of faith (bag with instruments, all weapons, spell components) , and then ask if I can please see the baby, to at least ease my mind. The barbarian tries to intimidate me (not the first time he has tried to do this). I tell him "You really think you intimidate me, when there are 10 kobolds with bows and arrows, and they've probably trapped the room?" and go to the baby. I see that its probably a gnome, and realizing that if I do anything, we and the baby will probably be killed. I plan to work something out later. The barbarian picks all my weapons up.

I am quite obviously shaken and quite upset. When I ask him to give them back, he tells me he does not have them. Given that he is wearing just a loincloth, not to mention I can see them, I don't by it for a minute. He tells me he will give them back to me, plus the sling he shoved down his loincloth if I say sorry to him. I do, I say "Im sorry" to him. He gives me them back and I say to him "Im sorry that you are so base and without morals that you would take the possesions of a negotiator in a possible hostage situation who had 10 of his mortal enemies pointing arrows towards him, then lie to his face, and refuse to give them back unless he swallowed his pride".

I go to the church of Garl Glittergold, and ask for guidance and pray that the baby will be okay. I plan on telling our boss (who is a gnome), but several of the group cut me off. I will probably go back to the church of CG later and tell the church to keep any action low key. A Gnome-Kobold bloodbath on the streets of the city of splendors is the last thing I want.


So, after all that, do I have a case for asking the DM to make his character take an allignment check on the Good - Evil and the Lawful - Chaotic Axis?

...Just to sate my curiosity...is the player being a **** (I...actually forgot what I said here) jerk/negative person with how the character is acting or are you all having a merry time? Cause that sounds like a massive A**hole.

[M Placeholder]

...Just to sate my curiosity...is the player being a **** (I...actually forgot what I said here) jerk/negative person with how the character is acting or are you all having a merry time? Cause that sounds like a massive A**hole.

All of us are loving the campaign, the DM has been great and all of my other players are great. They are playing their characters brilliantly. We have all given ours backstories, traits and all worship gods.

He has described his character in the following terms - "Barbarian who rages easily, and is searching for who destroyed his home". Thats it.

His character is trying to bully mine for two reasons

1 - hes a gnome
2 - hes a bard

I have a feeling that he thinks that once he breaks my gnome (No way in the Nine Hells is that going to happen), he can start with the Elf, then the Mage, and on and on. As for 2 I, in game and out, cannot belive that he (in game and out ) doesn't realize how ****ing stupid number two is, and that with lateral and quick thinking and one use of Tashas Hideous Laughter or Charm Person, hand his ass to him.

He cheated on his rolls, and was asked to either take 20 off his current score or use averages in the Players manual he chose the first and dumped wis and int, and kept cha, meaning that he is playing a character that is weak willed, unintelligent, undisciplined, arrogant and has no idea of how much danger he is in. To be fair, he is playing his barbarian character well, as he has shown all of those traits in the two sessions when he was roleplaying. He described his character on the sheet as "Stands up for whats right and loyalty" in his ideals, and that he is strong willed. I have a feeling that he does not even realize (in and out of character) that his character is a bully and has commited two pretty unsavoury acts, and he thinks he's actually playing a good character. That's pretty scary, to be honest.

I have told the DM that I can end this with one casting of Charm person, and a massive speech stating that while he might be strong physically, he is a liability to our group and that he will either die at the hands of powerful spellcasters, or by someone he pissed off (his fellow players, who it goes without saying can all paste him 80% plus of the time), or doing the last dance at the gallows in the shadows of Castle Waterdeep as he was too stupid to not get caught killing someone, and that he will thank me for this speech in the future, and that this is an act of tough love by my gnome, and that if he wants to avoid floating face down in the harbour with a knife sticking out of this back, he will listen to what I am saying.

The thing that Im more pissed off about is that for the last 50-60 mins of the session, he claims that he is too tired to play a campaign that he loves, but he has no problem going to the other side of the cafe and playing MTG.

Next time he tries to bully, badmouth or intimidate my player, Im going to cast charm person on him and give him the speech.

[JAL_1138]

All of us are loving the campaign, the DM has been great and all of my other players are great. They are playing their characters brilliantly. We have all given ours backstories, traits and all worship gods.

He has described his character in the following terms - "Barbarian who rages easily, and is searching for who destroyed his home". Thats it.

He cheated on his rolls, and was asked to either take 20 off his current score or use averages in the Players manual he chose the first and dumped wis and int, and kept cha, meaning that he is playing a character that . I have told the DM that I can end this with one casting of Charm person, and a massive speech stating that while he might be strong physically, he is a liability to our group and that he will either die at the hands of powerful spellcasters, or by someone he pissed off (his fellow players, who it goes without saying can all paste him 80% plus of the time), or doing the last dance at the gallows in the shadows of Castle Waterdeep as he was too stupid to not get caught killing someone, and that he will thank me for this speech in the future, and that this is an act of tough love by my gnome, and that if he wants to avoid floating face down in the harbour with a knife sticking out of this back, he will listen to what I am saying.

The thing that Im more pissed off about is that for the last 50-60 mins of the session, he claims that he is too tired to play a campaign that he loves, but he has no problem going to the other side of the cafe and playing MTG.

Next time he tries to bully, badmouth or intimidate my player, Im going to cast charm person on him and give him the speech.

...now I DEFINITELY think this is an OOC issue; I don't think an in-character talking-to is going to fix things.

[Ralanr]

The thing that Im more pissed off about is that for the last 50-60 mins of the session, he claims that he is too tired to play a campaign that he loves, but he has no problem going to the other side of the cafe and playing MTG.



I understand this frustration all too well. Two of my friends play web games on their computers while in session (One has the excuse of having all his character details on a document cause he always loses his character sheet. The other says he can multi task...I'm not sure why he needs to). Sadly we can't control where a players interest lies.

But yeah your guy sounds like a total jerk and it sounds like the rest of the group is somewhat annoyed by him. Either talk with him OOC about his antics, have a group discussion, or cause mayhem by screwing around with him back.

We should be careful when fighting fire with fire, as we can always run out of things to burn.

[M Placeholder]

I understand this frustration all too well. Two of my friends play web games on their computers while in session (One has the excuse of having all his character details on a document cause he always loses his character sheet. The other says he can multi task...I'm not sure why he needs to). Sadly we can't control where a players interest lies.

But yeah your guy sounds like a total jerk and it sounds like the rest of the group is somewhat annoyed by him. Either talk with him OOC about his antics, have a group discussion, or cause mayhem by screwing around with him back.

We should be careful when fighting fire with fire, as we can always run out of things to burn.

To be honest, considering how high my charisma is, I don't think he can actually intimidate me that much, and that I can (and possibly will) end this with one spell. I do want to give him the whole "Tough Love" speach and try and reform him and convince him to boost his wisdom score, but that might be a bit tough.

One of the reasons I asked for advice on an Alignment Check was that if he failed both, I could make the case for our group taking him down to the waterdeep jail and getting a new one, as having a chaotic evil barbarian in a group with a Paladin and a Mouradin worshipping dwarf is not a good idea, especially if he is a liability.

Remember, he cannot really do anything to me. He tries to fight me? I cast one spell and its over. He tries to pull the same **** with the staircase? Attempted murder with 4 witnesses, one a Paladin of Mouradin and a Dwarf fighter who worships the same god. He'll be doing the last dance for sure. He tries to kill me some other way? He's too stupid to actually have a shot of killing me, much less pull it off and not getting away with it, and the rest of the group will probably kill him eventually.

I have just read the post on why Bards are awesome, and I am a fan of the Barbarian, reading what I have written, I think our adventuring group needs a new one, one that can actually succeed on a will save and is not a liability.

So in short, **** it, Im going to cast charm person on him, go to the guards of Waterdeep and lead the berk into a jail cell myself, melt the lock, and throw the key through the enterance of the World Serpent Inn.

[Karl Aegis]

It does look like he acts with arbitrary violence spurred by hatred and it doesn't look like he does what seems best at the time. I can see a reevaluation of his alignment happening.

[themaque]

To be honest, considering how high my charisma is, I don't think he can actually intimidate me that much, and that I can (and possibly will) end this with one spell. I do want to give him the whole "Tough Love" speach and try and reform him and convince him to boost his wisdom score, but that might be a bit tough.

-snip-

So in short, **** it, Im going to cast charm person on him, go to the guards of Waterdeep and lead the berk into a jail cell myself, melt the lock, and throw the key through the enterance of the World Serpent Inn.

I honestly don't see how this plan of retaliation could end any way but badly. If the player himself doesn't see how he is behaving, and the other players don't as well, than this will just be upping the ante of the in character confrontation.

I would ask the other players if the situation is the same to them as it is to you. See if they are of the same opinion. If so, maybe talk to the guy to tone it down.

Some ribbing and rivalry between characters can be fun, but this is sounding more antagonistic than is healthy. At least from this perspective.

How well do you and this guy get along OOC?

[M Placeholder]

I honestly don't see how this plan of retaliation could end any way but badly. If the player himself doesn't see how he is behaving, and the other players don't as well, than this will just be upping the ante of the in character confrontation.

I would ask the other players if the situation is the same to them as it is to you. See if they are of the same opinion. If so, maybe talk to the guy to tone it down.

Some ribbing and rivalry between characters can be fun, but this is sounding more antagonistic than is healthy. At least from this perspective.

How well do you and this guy get along OOC?

I had a message from the DM stating that he was tempted to kill the character, mostly for his behaviour. I told him to hold fire, and see how it played out.

A day later, I had the realization that his character, looking back over the session and his build, that his guy would become a liability, and that while he wanted to make a really strong character, he has made the weakest of the lot.
He has an 8 to wisdom and intelligence, and everything else over 15, its pretty bad. He stated in the levelling up to 2nd that he was going to max out strength and con, and to hell with intelligence. I have a feeling that he only cares about charisma for intimidation. He has, in terms of will and versitility, the worst character out of all of us, and that each of us could paste him in a fight, no problem. Im not sure if Im the only one to come to this realization, but I have a gut feeling Im not.

I told my DM that he did not have a problem, as the barbarian had no idea of how bad his character was and that he had a massive achilles heel.

At second level, my character has the spells Cure Wounds, Tashas Hideous Laughter and Charm Person. THL would have him prone no problem, and Charm Person would have him under my thrall for an hour. When combined with creative use any of the following items, I could take him out the game - the environment, my banjo, my bullrope (cowbell and rope with a lasso at the end), manacles and the mending and prestigitation cantrips.

OOC I get on okay with the guy. But in game, there is a problem. The other players have expressed their dissatisfaction with his love of using intimidate, as I hinted earlier. In the Dark Sun campaign I recently converted from 3.5 to 5th (which was so much better), he was pretty fond of using intimidate, even on his team mates sometimes (though never on the 1200 pound and 10 foot tall Half Giant, for some reason), he was constantly asking about AoO (he even once tried to argue that moving into an area that was covered by arrow range was worthy of an attack of opportunity) and about when we got metal weapons and armour, kind of missing the point of the setting. I was planning to give him a full set of armour and a metal lance, then sic the ravager on him (an abomination that mashes into paste anything with metal on it). He also fudged his ranks and had way more than he should. It was a relief when he left the campaign when I told him that the other 3 players loved the idea of Dark Sun 5th edition.

So, I think that things are going to come to a head between him and the DM and me on the other.

[themaque]

I had a message from the DM stating that he was tempted to kill the character, mostly for his behaviour. I told him to hold fire, and see how it played out.

A day later, I had the realization that his character, looking back over the session and his build, that his guy would become a liability, and that while he wanted to make a really strong character, he has made the weakest of the lot.
He has an 8 to wisdom and intelligence, and everything else over 15, its pretty bad. He stated in the levelling up to 2nd that he was going to max out strength and con, and to hell with intelligence. I have a feeling that he only cares about charisma for intimidation. He has, in terms of will and versitility, the worst character out of all of us, and that each of us could paste him in a fight, no problem. Im not sure if Im the only one to come to this realization, but I have a gut feeling Im not.

I told my DM that he did not have a problem, as the barbarian had no idea of how bad his character was and that he had a massive achilles heel.

At second level, my character has the spells Cure Wounds, Tashas Hideous Laughter and Charm Person. THL would have him prone no problem, and Charm Person would have him under my thrall for an hour. When combined with creative use any of the following items, I could take him out the game - the environment, my banjo, my bullrope (cowbell and rope with a lasso at the end), manacles and the mending and prestigitation cantrips.

OOC I get on okay with the guy. But in game, there is a problem. The other players have expressed their dissatisfaction with his love of using intimidate, as I hinted earlier. In the Dark Sun campaign I recently converted from 3.5 to 5th (which was so much better), he was pretty fond of using intimidate, even on his team mates sometimes (though never on the 1200 pound and 10 foot tall Half Giant, for some reason), he was constantly asking about AoO (he even once tried to argue that moving into an area that was covered by arrow range was worthy of an attack of opportunity) and about when we got metal weapons and armour, kind of missing the point of the setting. I was planning to give him a full set of armour and a metal lance, then sic the ravager on him (an abomination that mashes into paste anything with metal on it). He also fudged his ranks and had way more than he should. It was a relief when he left the campaign when I told him that the other 3 players loved the idea of Dark Sun 5th edition.

So, I think that things are going to come to a head between him and the DM and me on the other.

Well, the problem is then OOC not necessarily IN character. Just curb stomping his Barbarian isn't going to help the real issue, that he is throwing his dice around at other players and taking away from their fun.

I would suggest you, the other players, and the GM's talk to him, maybe at game maybe away from it, and explain the situation and explain to him why his behaviour is taking away from everyone else's enjoyment. Just sitting and stewing at what is going on then suddenly striking at him isn't going to help defuse the situation, it will just escalate things IMHO.

He may think you are all in on the joke, and he is making the game varied or interesting. Yeah, people can be oblivious as long as THEY are having a good time. Just human nature i'm afraid. Then when you curb stomp him or the GM kicks him out he is upset because from his point of view "Where did this all come from? Why are you suddenly made at me NOW?!?"

[M Placeholder]

Well, the problem is then OOC not necessarily IN character. Just curb stomping his Barbarian isn't going to help the real issue, that he is throwing his dice around at other players and taking away from their fun.

I would suggest you, the other players, and the GM's talk to him, maybe at game maybe away from it, and explain the situation and explain to him why his behaviour is taking away from everyone else's enjoyment. Just sitting and stewing at what is going on then suddenly striking at him isn't going to help defuse the situation, it will just escalate things IMHO.

He may think you are all in on the joke, and he is making the game varied or interesting. Yeah, people can be oblivious as long as THEY are having a good time. Just human nature i'm afraid. Then when you curb stomp him or the GM kicks him out he is upset because from his point of view "Where did this all come from? Why are you suddenly made at me NOW?!?"

Thats a good idea. I'll talk things over with the players in my Dark Sun group (one is the DM of the FR game, and two are fellow players) and the others, and tell them the my point of view, and how I think that his character will be killed if this continues, and how I can see the warning signs. And that he will blame one of us or the DM.

[Ralanr]

Well, the problem is then OOC not necessarily IN character. Just curb stomping his Barbarian isn't going to help the real issue, that he is throwing his dice around at other players and taking away from their fun.

I would suggest you, the other players, and the GM's talk to him, maybe at game maybe away from it, and explain the situation and explain to him why his behaviour is taking away from everyone else's enjoyment. Just sitting and stewing at what is going on then suddenly striking at him isn't going to help defuse the situation, it will just escalate things IMHO.

He may think you are all in on the joke, and he is making the game varied or interesting. Yeah, people can be oblivious as long as THEY are having a good time. Just human nature i'm afraid. Then when you curb stomp him or the GM kicks him out he is upset because from his point of view "Where did this all come from? Why are you suddenly made at me NOW?!?"

Yeah, as stated before this does sound like an OOC problem. As much as you'd like to take revenge on the guy for being a jerk, that doesn't make you any better. It might even end up ruining the OOC connection.

He may not notice it, but YOU do. If YOU are having a problem, then you should talk with him, not behind his back with the gm. I have a guy in my group I loathe, the guy makes me actually get headaches and raise my voice, something I have NEVER done in a session before. I've tried talking to him and nothing has changed and I seem to be the only one bothered by him.

My situation can be solved by time (Since this year is his final year and everyone other than him is a junior). Your situation seemed like it can be solved by talking with him.

I'd recommend having an intervention right before the next session. Ask everyone else if that is ok beforehand. Go in, talk about the issue, get his side of it, and find a way around it.

Also avoid being furious or try to remember to be calm. Deep breaths are helpful.

[Kryx]

I think you're heavily exaggerating his weaknesses. Having a low int save isn't crippling at all as it is so rare.

Nearly all front line guys I play with have fairly low int/wis. 8 wis is quite bad, but it's pretty hard to not dump stats if you're using point buy.

[M Placeholder]

I think you're heavily exaggerating his weaknesses. Having a low int save isn't crippling at all as it is so rare.

Nearly all front line guys I play with have fairly low int/wis. 8 wis is quite bad, but it's pretty hard to not dump stats if you're using point buy.

He wasn't using point buy. He was given the choice between a choice of stats. He could have used the standard array, a pregen from the starter set, or take 20 from his "rolled" stats. He chose the last option.

This campaign has a lot of intrigue and quite a lot of talking along side the fighting, and as I've described, his stat array makes him a liability. The problem is that he is playing his character well - his lack of inteligence and wisdom, combined with a high charisma, means that he has a character that is arrogant, quick to anger, petty and has little idea of just how dangerous situations are. That is the problem right there.

Imagine putting a Slaad in the party, and having the player roleplay him really well. There is the problem right there.

The situation where he tried to push me down the stairs, in view of four witnesses? One of whom is a Paladin of Moradin? The whole basement scenario? Its only the second session, and Ive told the DM (with good reason) that the barbarian should have an alignment check that could push him into chaotic evil.

Im going to have a talk with the entire group and tell them how I think this will play out, and tell them how I feel, and be as concise, tell him and the group that his character, the way he is playing him, is a liability, and try and work something out (like maybe come up with a new character that will fit).

[Mellack]

This is OOC problems and should be handled as such. Talk it out. Charming/killing his character will not solve this. Discuss it like adults and if you cannot reach a conclusion, stop gaming together.

[Occasional Sage]

This is OOC problems and should be handled as such. Talk it out. Charming/killing his character will not solve this. Discuss it like adults and if you cannot reach a conclusion, stop gaming together.

All of the thises.

Honestly, I think his character would be fun in a that campaign... IF he could distinguish between terrible behavior to NPCs and terrible behavior to PCs.

[M Placeholder]

Hi everyone. Thanks for the advice. I've decided that instead of ending it in game and taking his character out, Ive decided that talking about it before hand and point things out to him. After all, if I kill his character or walk him to a Waterdhavian cop shop, there is a good chance he'll probably blame everyone except himself, and continue to pump out appallingly built bland murderhobos and poison other games. Im going to try and reform him.

I asked for a meeting just before the session on Thursday.

Im going to talk with everyone about the issues, and describe how I think this is going to play out if things don't change. Ive decided to ask for 3 alignment checks for the Barbarian, in light of 3 acts of stupid evil. I'll gently point out that his character is weak and that if things continue, his Barbarian is going to probably end up dead.

I was also thinking of drawing up a character for him, and asking the others to, so they can build a character that does not stink the place out. Im not sure if hes able to create a character that does not stink the place out, in the same way that not everyone can play a Kender without crashing and burning (the high performance car of D&D).

Any advice before the meeting?

[Rad Mage]

...Im going to try and reform him....

I don't think this is the best mindset to have. Yes, by all means sit him down and talk it out. But his behavior is HIS responsibility, not yours. Give him the opportunity to reform himself but don't do it for him. If he continues to behave poorly after you have explained the situation to him, then he is choosing to be a disruption and should be asked to leave.

[HoarsHalberd]

Hi everyone. Thanks for the advice. I've decided that instead of ending it in game and taking his character out, Ive decided that talking about it before hand and point things out to him. After all, if I kill his character or walk him to a Waterdhavian cop shop, there is a good chance he'll probably blame everyone except himself, and continue to pump out appallingly built bland murderhobos and poison other games. Im going to try and reform him.

I asked for a meeting just before the session on Thursday.

Im going to talk with everyone about the issues, and describe how I think this is going to play out if things don't change. Ive decided to ask for 3 alignment checks for the Barbarian, in light of 3 acts of stupid evil. I'll gently point out that his character is weak and that if things continue, his Barbarian is going to probably end up dead.

I was also thinking of drawing up a character for him, and asking the others to, so they can build a character that does not stink the place out. Im not sure if hes able to create a character that does not stink the place out, in the same way that not everyone can play a Kender without crashing and burning (the high performance car of D&D).

Any advice before the meeting?

It's far from appallingly built, the only mistake I can see that he made was choosing to have a high charisma over a high wisdom. But it makes sense for a character idea. A stupid, stubborn, bull-headed strong man is a very common character type. The acts he's been doing have been OOC stupid. If he's loyal he shouldn't go murder-crazy. That's a player problem. But the character itself is sound. His character is far from weak, and actually appears to be an attempt to optimise. The 8 wisdom over 15 potential wisdom is a -15% chance to save wisdom, silly in my eyes but far from a trap character. As for dumping intelligence, it is pretty much required for an optimised fighter/barbarian

[Ralanr]

Any advice before the meeting?

Don't assume he needs help making a character. Do not say his character is weak or bad to his face. Even if you think it is true, even if it is statistically true, it would not help the situation. If someone asks for help then offer it, if you think they need help then you should ask if they would like some build advice or not. And don't draw up a character for him, it's insulting to him. How would you react if someone made you a new character cause yours sucked despite your disagreement to that opinion?

This is an OOC problem. This is NOT a in character problem. Be open but don't be rude or heavily emotional. Be calm, state your problems, listen to HIS side of the argument, and try to figure out a solution that makes both of you happy (And you may not like the solution. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet.)

Also don't shout or respond to shouting/raised voices with shouting/raised voices. Do that and I can guarantee you that neither of you will be playing that day. Seriously, settle it like reasonable adults.

[Mellack]

It sounds to me like you are not going into this meeting with the right attitude for a successful conclusion. Do not try to build them a new character. With the flatter math in 5e, even a badly build character can contribute, and I am not even saying they have a badly build character. Do not try to blame them or say they are playing wrong. Describe how you feel. Be prepared to compromise. The lasting solutions are ones where both sides get some and give up some. If you expect to get everything your way it is sure to fail.

[M Placeholder]

It's far from appallingly built, the only mistake I can see that he made was choosing to have a high charisma over a high wisdom. But it makes sense for a character idea. A stupid, stubborn, bull-headed strong man is a very common character type. The acts he's been doing have been OOC stupid. If he's loyal he shouldn't go murder-crazy. That's a player problem. But the character itself is sound. His character is far from weak, and actually appears to be an attempt to optimise. The 8 wisdom over 15 potential wisdom is a -15% chance to save wisdom, silly in my eyes but far from a trap character. As for dumping intelligence, it is pretty much required for an optimised fighter/barbarian

The thing is, considering the style of the campaign so far, his character build is appaling for the campaign. The stats for his character (Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16) and the personality traits, ideas, bonds and flaws (as seen through his characters and maybe his eyes) are those for a character who thinks he's noble, but in reality, is a violent, and dangerous berk who does not realise hes pretty unsavoury. His high physical stats (Str 16, Dex 18, Con 18) may look good on paper, but in game...............Sweet Mystra.

If (our when) we go against something that can cast anything that requires a will save, he is going to get plastered and then the rest of the team have to deal with it. Having a spellcaster cast charm person on him and pointing him in our direction during a skirmish is a horrific thought.

His high charisma means that he is well spoken and people can react to him well, and ignore the fact that he is a total Berkshire Hunt. Imagine a jock at high school that is impulsive, stupid, and lacks self control, but thinks he is the opposite. But he is a great athlete and well spoken enough that people are charmed by him and don't see him for what he is (my character does, and the DM does too), or ignore it. That is the character that he is playing in game. Im not sure if he thinks the same as his character.

As I mentioned before, he is roleplaying his character well. Thats part of the problem. In reply to Ralanr, there is no way to explain the situation and make him aware of it that does not involve pointing that out. And that sucks.

[mephnick]

If (our when) we go against something that can cast anything that requires a will save, he is going to get plastered and then the rest of the team have to deal with it. Having a spellcaster cast charm person on him and pointing him in our direction during a skirmish is a horrific thought.

You can say this about any character that doesn't focus on wisdom proficiency. Do you consider every class that doesn't focus on wisdom a potential enemy? He probably has the same or 5% less chance of making a will save than any other martial character.

[Ralanr]

The thing is, considering the style of the campaign so far, his character build is appaling for the campaign.

As I mentioned before, he is roleplaying his character well. Thats part of the problem. In reply to Ralanr, there is no way to explain the situation and make him aware of it that does not involve pointing that out. And that sucks.

I once played a dwarf crossbowman fighter in a psychological horror setting that had zero combat. You can play any character in any setting and still have it work, it's just more difficult.

I'm somewhat confused. Is this a problem with his character or with his acting? If you dislike the character, then simply don't help him in situations. If he's surrounded by enemies and might die, either help him to showcase that you are (funnily enough, sorry) the bigger person. Or let him die since you have no reason to save him.

Plus if he get's mind controlled, why don't you just mind control him back? Is that not possible? Or hell mind control the guy controlling him or debilitating him. I'm sure you have ways of dealing with him, you've explained a few before. Sure it's a waste on a slot in combat, but we can't all get what we want.

Still talk with him, this is a good step regardless of the situation. If people do not communicate there problems, then they do not deal with them properly. Plus talking it out can make the end result less painful than playing even.

Seriously, why is the first instinct people have to deal with a problem is to use the same problem against it? I think water is a better weapon against fire than fire (It's less tactical. Simple things are not bad!)

[M Placeholder]

You can say this about any character that doesn't focus on wisdom proficiency. Do you consider every class that doesn't focus on wisdom a potential enemy? He probably has the same or 5% less chance of making a will save than any other martial character.

No, and remember, from his behaviour and attempts to threaten other characters and me, he is a potential enemy. I consider a murderhobo that tried to push my character down the stairs, physically kicked my character out of a shop, and has attempted to threaten me and steal my possesions a potential enemy. The other martials in the group have 14 and 16.

Remember, we have to deal with him. And considering how unpleasant is character is, thats a sickening thought.

[mephnick]

No, and remember, from his behaviour and attempts to threaten other characters and me, he is a potential enemy.

Then I agree.

"We consider you a potential danger to our party, we continue the campaign without you."

That's what you say if your OOC talk doesn't go well. If you all feel this way, the DM has no say in it.

If it destroys the group, get those other people together and make your own group. With blackjack. And hookers.

[M Placeholder]

I'm somewhat confused. Is this a problem with his character or with his acting?

He is playing a character that could, as a result of maybe 3 alignment checks, playing a character that could slip into chaotic evil, but thinks that he is a noble and good person.

OOC, Im not sure if he realises that his characters actions are pretty vile. He might think that he has done nothing wrong and not even realise that his actions are evil, and are percived as such. He might realise that he is playing a character that thinks hes good and just , but is pretty awful, and know that the actions that he has took are horrible. His character has moral myopia, Im not sure that he realises that.

I have a feeling, judging by his behaviour and breaking character to tell me to stop wasting time when I (in character) insulted his character back, despite him spending huge amounts of time during the basement scene insulting my character, that he is oblivous to his actions being evil.

In short, I'm not 100 percent sure that his character and him think the same about his conduct, actions and character, but I have reason to belive they do.

[Gavran]

With all due respect, I think your attitude toward this player is at minimum as toxic as his characters attitude toward yours and I suggest you stop gaming with him peacefully while you still can.

Your continued insistence that "his character is so bad" is a painfully blatant inversion of his character not respecting gnome bards, and while the "bards are lame" mentality is sadly prevalent and can often be a bummer (I once had a DM chuckle and say "Sure, you somehow intimidate him even though you're a bard" - nevermind the high Cha, the readied steel, and the fact he was some random tough at the docks. Ugh) - the "oh he's just a dumb brute martial" mentality is no better at all.

You are objectively incorrect to call his stats terrible - as pointed out by others, intellect is a dump stat for Barbarians. Would you prefer he dumped Strength and was actually useless? While a high Wis would probably be more generally effective than Cha, you yourself said there is "a lot of talking" in the game. Further, the difference between the two is merely +3 on a D20; an amount that is utterly dwarfed by the random range of the d20 itself. Nor is a -1 modifer, in roleplay or mechanics, the difference between an average person and dumber than anyone you've met IRL.

Your absurd confidence that you can "take him with one spell" in a game that was never intended to have Classes fight Classes and the not-so-subtle indication that this makes you better than him would raise a lot of red flags to me as your fellow player/DM, but the fact that you think for even a second you have the right to try to get his character imprisoned/otherwise force him to re-roll would have you out of the group mid-session.

Now - I do want to be clear that the Barbarian player has also crossed some lines - trashing another player's character, for example, is usually rude, and is way too often done in pointless cliche ways that utterly fail to justify that rudeness. This is the dwarf player who insists that all elves are sissies, the elf player who insists that humans are utterly beneath him, the wizard player who insists that fighters are only meat shields, and yes, the anyone at all who opts to ignore all the things that make bards cool and insists they're just fancy little minstrels. That said - nearly every wrong of his I can count is matched by one of your own.

You threaten to trip him on the stairs - he tries to push you down the stairs.
He annoys you with his class abilities (thrown out of the shop) - you annoy him with yours (Prestidigitation)
He takes your stuff - you insult him some more
He mocks you for being a gnome bard - you vehemently trash his character in this thread over and over again
He attempts to control your character with Intimidate - you desire to control his character with magic

You're both (players, not characters) acting like children.

Now, it may not be completely impossible to resolve this in an adult fashion - particularly if you've kept most of your vitriol contained to this thread/yourself/where he is unaware of it - but it seems pretty apparent to me that you, with your friend the DM, very much desire to bully this person in real life and have no intent of accepting and respecting him as a fellow player. If you can look deep inside yourself and claim that isn't so, only then would I suggest you even attempt to fix these issues.

If you honestly and earnestly want to take a second chance at playing with this person, and in fact at being a decent human being to this person, then this is my advice:

- Have a talk before the next game.

- Explain that you feel the IC conflict has gone too far. Do not blame him. You are equally responsible, and blame isn't important at this stage regardless.

- Request that OOC, you decide you will not have conflict with other characters in the party any more. Agree to make up whatever reasons necessary for your characters not to fight. If it is not "in character" for them to get along fix your character this is a game and the point is to have fun with each other.

- Apologize for your part in the escalating conflict. Even if he's completely unaware of your desires that you expressed here and with your DM, they are completely over the line and you need to admit guilt if you're ever going to respect this person.

- After the IC conflict issues are completely resolved only then should you bring up the leaving to play MTG thing. On that note, the fact that he went and played MTG is completely irrelevant. Your concern is exclusively this: is your gaming group such that everyone commits to a fixed time, and thus is expected to be present (barring objectively Important things) or is it a group where it's okay to take off because you have other plans, other wants, you're not feeling up to the game, etc. Either of these is perfectly acceptable, but it's something the group needs to be in agreement on. The fact that he played Magic afterward is none of your business, and it's pretty normal for someone to give a polite excuse like "I'm feeling tired" rather than expressing "this isn't fun for me" - and given the hostility, I could hardly blame anyone at that table for wanting to walk away because it wasn't fun.

- Under any circumstances:
DO NOT attempt to justify any of your actions, even if he does so.
DO NOT raise your voice or get angry, even if he does so.
DO NOT tell him (by yourself) he is not welcome to play with you, that is not your decision.
DO NOT criticize his character build, by doing so you are criticizing him directly and it is not your place.
DO NOT attempt to have the DM change his alignment. That is not the your place, or the DM's place.
DO NOT attempt to remove his character from the game/party through in-game means. The only acceptable way to remove a character from a party is an OOC agreement that the character is incompatible. This is not a decision you get to make on your own, everyone in the game has a say. Your perception of the characters effectiveness is irrelevant, it is a matter of "this character being in the party causes the game to not work" - example: Lawful Stupid paladin in a party of blatant serial killers.


TL;DR you should probably stop playing with this person. A bigger man would leave, but you'd probably ask the party to choose between the two of you. Sometimes admitting a problem can't be fixed is the most mature solution. If that's unacceptable to you, then go read the whole post.

[Ralanr]

SNIP

Yes. Do this.

[bloodshed343]

I once played with a guy who always played a character that was a combination of Deadpool and the psychos from Borderlands. They were always stupidly overpowered because he was also the DM. We had to bribe his character with raw meat so he wouldn't kill us.

Well, anyway, despite the fact that his lines were often hilarious and the characters were truly memorable, one day the party got a little tired of it, and we were discussing ways our characters could kill this dmpc. Since we didn't have any books besides the dmg and monster manuals, I was playing a storm shaman homebrew class. We all had custom spells and abilities as we leveled up. Anyway, I had this one spell called Thunderclap or something. I could cast it as a free action whenever I dealt lightning damage to deal 1d4 thunder damage to everything within xd10 feet, where x is the amount of lightning damage dealt. It wasn't that bad since my most powerful lightning spell was 1d8. Well, I came up with a combo and figured out a way to slip it past my dm, since I knew he wasn't very savvy with the maths. I asked for a spell that, when I cast an area affect ability I could cast a spell to deal 1 lightning damage per person in the area of the spell to each person in the area of the spell. It played out like this:

We were in a besieged fortress surrounded by "millions" of orcs. I cast my rainstorm spell, which makes it rain in a 300' radius, over the orc camp. Then I say I'm using my new spell to make it deal lightning damage. The DM starts laughing, thinking this is my combo all along, saying things like "wow, you might kill as many orcs as [his character] can." Then I tell him I'm using Thunderclap, and he gets even more excited. Then I tell him I use my new spell to make Thunderclap deal lightning damage. Suddenly everyone gets quiet as they mull over this recursivity.

There were one thousand or more orcs in the radius of my rainstorm, in tight marching formation. They all took 1000 lightning damage, then exploded dealing thunder damage to everything in 1000d10 feet. Everything within 1000d10 feet took lightning damage equal to the number of targets in that area, which was "hundreds of thousands". We said 300,000 to give an exact number. They all exploded with a 300,00d10 radius. And so on. My character was immune to lightning and thunder damage from his Storm armor. Everything else died. I gained enough experience to reach level thirty. The god of thunder stepped off his throne and let me have it. Campaign ended.

I'm not allowed to play DnD with that group again unless the DM makes my character, which is always severely underpowered. Like, dex 12 monk.

TL; DR: don't try to win D&D.

[Xetheral]

Ive decided to ask for 3 alignment checks for the Barbarian, in light of 3 acts of stupid evil.

At the risk of being an ignoramus, what is an alignment check? At first I just assumed it meant a conversation with the player and the DM about alignment, but if you're having 3 of them, I'm clearly misunderstanding something.

[themaque]

DO NOT attempt to justify any of your actions, even if he does so.
DO NOT raise your voice or get angry, even if he does so.
DO NOT tell him (by yourself) he is not welcome to play with you, that is not your decision.
DO NOT criticize his character build, by doing so you are criticizing him directly and it is not your place.
DO NOT attempt to have the DM change his alignment. That is not the your place, or the DM's place.
DO NOT attempt to remove his character from the game/party through in-game means. The only acceptable way to remove a character from a party is an OOC agreement that the character is incompatible. This is not a decision you get to make on your own, everyone in the game has a say. Your perception of the characters effectiveness is irrelevant, it is a matter of "this character being in the party causes the game to not work" - example: Lawful Stupid paladin in a party of blatant serial killers.


TL;DR you should probably stop playing with this person. A bigger man would leave, but you'd probably ask the party to choose between the two of you. Sometimes admitting a problem can't be fixed is the most mature solution. If that's unacceptable to you, then go read the whole post.


Because It may be lost on page 2, do this. I may be reading into a post to much, but you seem to be taking his actions very personally, and that could accidently lead you to behaving rashly as well. It can be very hard not to take actions against your character personally, especially if you have a problem with the antagonistic OOC as well as IC.

[Mellack]

Snip.

Extremely well said. Read it and take it to heart. Best advice on the thread.

[M Placeholder]

Snip

That post is exactly the viewpoint that his friends may well take, as well as in game, if others don’t see through him. And that horrifies me. Others not seeing his evil ways, and condoning them.

It's the reason why John Cena is considered a "Face" in the WWE, despite being the one that is at fault (and the most unlikable one) in many of his feuds. Same with Sheamus, before his (****)face-heel turn a few days ago. Hell, most faces in WWE (one of the reasons I stopped watching).

Its why the reason why the "Face" vampires are treated as good guys in the first few series of True Blood, despite being cold blooded killers and a threat to other people around them.

Its why the Gods of "Good" in Dragonlance are seen as good, slamming asteroids down on the planet and killing millions, then abandoning the world to let the population face the age of despair with no healing magic, and punishing the entire planet for the actions of one knight templar and his fellow priests.

A person can commit heinous acts and not only face no censure, but be congratulated. That is terrifying.


With all due respect, I think your attitude toward this player is at minimum as toxic as his characters attitude toward yours and I suggest you stop gaming with him peacefully while you still can.

Your continued insistence that "his character is so bad" is a painfully blatant inversion of his character not respecting gnome bards, and while the "bards are lame" mentality is sadly prevalent and can often be a bummer (I once had a DM chuckle and say "Sure, you somehow intimidate him even though you're a bard" - nevermind the high Cha, the readied steel, and the fact he was some random tough at the docks. Ugh) - the "oh he's just a dumb brute martial" mentality is no better at all.

I love big dumb brutes. Hell, the DM plays a Half Giant barbarian brilliantly in my Dark Sun campaign, and I love Enor from OOTS. One of my character concepts was a big half ogre bard that used a 2x4 as a weapon, but it was DMG and PH characters only. Enor is great, one of my favourite parts of OOTS was the scene in the arena. That was really touching, and when he started crying because he didn’t want to hurt his best friend…..Jesus, I started crying too.

The problem is, that while the other two are likable guys who care about people they are close to (the half giant is one of the nicest people on Athas), the barbarian is a bully, and deeply unpleasant. He has little respect for others. The problem is not that he is stupid and weak willed, its that he is stupid and has little wisdom, but actually thinks he is cleaver and strong willed.



You are objectively incorrect to call his stats terrible - as pointed out by others, intellect is a dump stat for Barbarians. Would you prefer he dumped Strength and was actually useless? While a high Wis would probably be more generally effective than Cha, you yourself said there is "a lot of talking" in the game. Further, the difference between the two is merely +3 on a D20; an amount that is utterly dwarfed by the random range of the d20 itself. Nor is a -1 modifer, in roleplay or mechanics, the difference between an average person and dumber than anyone you've met IRL.

Like I explained earlier on, his stats make him a danger, not only to me, but to the other party members. Because he is well spoken, he can talk his way into situations and make him pull the wool over people’s eyes, or make them ignore that he is a pretty awful person. In short, his strength becomes a huge potential danger to the party.


Your absurd confidence that you can "take him with one spell" in a game that was never intended to have Classes fight Classes and the not-so-subtle indication that this makes you better than him would raise a lot of red flags to me as your fellow player/DM, but the fact that you think for even a second you have the right to try to get his character imprisoned/otherwise force him to re-roll would have you out of the group mid-session.

Tell that to the guy that routinely threatens other party members, and has already attacked my character.

Lets talk about red flags. Three acts of stupid evil, in a party with two worshippers of Mouradin, and no evil members. If I was neutral or evil, I would take the view of Professor Farnsworth.

“The evil I can tolerate. But the stupidity!”

Remember, this is one session. One act of SE is bad enough, but three?


Now - I do want to be clear that the Barbarian player has also crossed some lines - trashing another player's character, for example, is usually rude, and is way too often done in pointless cliché ways that utterly fail to justify that rudeness. This is the dwarf player who insists that all elves are sissies, the elf player who insists that humans are utterly beneath him, the wizard player who insists that fighters are only meat shields, and yes, the anyone at all who opts to ignore all the things that make bards cool and insists they're just fancy little minstrels. That said - nearly every wrong of his I can count is matched by one of your own.

You threaten to trip him on the stairs - he tries to push you down the stairs.
He annoys you with his class abilities (thrown out of the shop) - you annoy him with yours (Prestidigitation)
He takes your stuff - you insult him some more
He mocks you for being a gnome bard - you vehemently trash his character in this thread over and over again
He attempts to control your character with Intimidate - you desire to control his character with magic

You're both (players, not characters) acting like children.

Okay, lets go through this.

Stairs – First off, my character thought about tripping him on the last few steps on the staircase to make him fall head over heels. He never actually did it, nor did his barbarian hear or see anything. I described what my character was thinking.

His character, on the other hand, tried to push my character down a flight of stairs from the top. In front of all the other party members. Including a Paladin of Moradin and a Worshipper of Moradin. When there was what we fought was a battle on the other side (or maybe a test of character for stealth), and he decided to just push me down the stairs.

Lets see – attempting to murder your team mate just because he played a little harmless prank on you? Remember, he described his character as strong willed.

That is a clear case of stupid evil. Massive red flag right there.

The shop? Physical Violence and I was trying to convince the owner of the shop that I was not so different from the wild mage; OOC and IC a view that holds a lot of water (both have a gift of magic, both convince the weave of Mystra to do things for us). I was trying to get spells to help the party. He decided he was just going to kick me out of the shop without even thinking about the situation.

He took my stuff, yes. After a situation where 10 kobolds (who despise gnomes) were pointing crossbows at me, and two others had a gnome baby, and he tried to intimidate my character during a section when I had put down all my possessions in a show of faith as I wanted to see if the baby was okay. And yes, I had insulted him. After he lied to my face (his character has no clothes, no possessions except for a Maul, no bag, just a loincloth) about having my possessions, sticking my sling down his pants, and refusing to give them back to me unless I apologized to him. My character, was upset, scared and was trying to stay calm. And trust me, it took every bit of self-restraint (In character) from casting THL on him, getting my possessions back, chaining him to a railing, taking more precautions to make sure he was bound and helpless, and giving him the whole “Reason you suck” speech.

As for the intimidation, he has already attacked my character once, and IC, after the basement incident, I can see that he has no idea of the amount of danger he is generally in, and he has tried to threaten me. Casting charm person on him and walking him to a jail would protect him from me, other members of the party, and probably himself. And considering his lack of restraint, his weak will and his violent tendencies, Waterdeep Jail might be the best place for him. I don’t want to control him – I just want him in a place where he cannot hurt anyone and be a danger to others and himself.

Hell, I’m having a hard time believing his backstory of actually getting to Waterdeep from somewhere in the far north after his entire village was destroyed. (That’s it for backstory). His character is incredibly bland and I’m having a hard time summing up his character beyond “Barbarian”, “Loincloth wearing”, “Maul-Loving” and “Stupid Evil”. Nothing in the two sessions has pointed to anything else. He hasn’t given any homeland, diety (wall of faithless, is that you?), or anything else that does not go against his actual behavior IC, apart from “Quick to Anger” and “loves fighting”. Basically his class.

The above would not be a problem if he was in the background and only coming to the fore when fighting, but he is at the forefront of the sessions generally. Considering that his character had several “Marty Stu” traits such as little characterization, Japanese first name that made no sense (his character is not from Kara – Tur or anywhere near there) combined with a generic last name, and great at everything with his original rolled stats, that is a problem right there.

Having him actually in Waterdeep from anywhere within 100 miles of the City of Splendors without him dying of natural causes stretches credibility in terms of the setting considering his character, and by natural causes, I also include “ending up with a knife in his back”, “floating face down in a river”, and “found dead in a tavern after being smothered in his sleep after pissing off the wrong guy”.


Now, it may not be completely impossible to resolve this in an adult fashion - particularly if you've kept most of your vitriol contained to this thread/yourself/where he is unaware of it - but it seems pretty apparent to me that you, with your friend the DM, very much desire to bully this person in real life and have no intent of accepting and respecting him as a fellow player. If you can look deep inside yourself and claim that isn't so, only then would I suggest you even attempt to fix these issues.

No, I just want to avoid the situation of his character ending up hanging from the gallows or the party deciding to tell the Paladin to take the night watch, then telling him that the barbarian died of natural causes when he asks where he is in the morning. It is nothing personal, this is strictly in game. The problem is that he may well take it personal.


If you honestly and earnestly want to take a second chance at playing with this person, and in fact at being a decent human being to this person, then this is my advice:

- Have a talk before the next game.

That’s happening


- Explain that you feel the IC conflict has gone too far. Do not blame him. You are equally responsible, and blame isn't important at this stage regardless.

He is the one that has committed three acts of stupid evil.


- Request that OOC, you decide you will not have conflict with other characters in the party any more. Agree to make up whatever reasons necessary for your characters not to fight. If it is not "in character" for them to get along fix your character this is a game and the point is to have fun with each other.

I will request that OOC. The problem with the fixing my character is twofold –

1 - It’s not just my character that he is having problems with in game, he has also attempted to bully others, and his character, as I’ve already explained, is not a person that you want to be around.
2 – his character is bland as hell, and has no characterization. He hasn’t really attempted to resolve this in the two sessions. Not to mention the problems outlined above.


- Apologize for your part in the escalating conflict. Even if he's completely unaware of your desires that you expressed here and with your DM, they are completely over the line and you need to admit guilt if you're ever going to respect this person.

I respect this person in real life. Its his character that I have a problem with, not him


- After the IC conflict issues are completely resolved only then should you bring up the leaving to play MTG thing. On that note, the fact that he went and played MTG is completely irrelevant. Your concern is exclusively this: is your gaming group such that everyone commits to a fixed time, and thus is expected to be present (barring objectively Important things) or is it a group where it's okay to take off because you have other plans, other wants, you're not feeling up to the game, etc. Either of these is perfectly acceptable, but it's something the group needs to be in agreement on. The fact that he played Magic afterward is none of your business, and it's pretty normal for someone to give a polite excuse like "I'm feeling tired" rather than expressing "this isn't fun for me" - and given the hostility, I could hardly blame anyone at that table for wanting to walk away because it wasn't fun.

Well, it is fun for everyone, and we love the campaign so far. He has stated the he loves it, but I doubt his sincerity, due to him going off and playing MTG for the last hour of the game. It’s not only annoying to me and the DM, its annoying to the other players too.




- Under any circumstances:

DO NOT attempt to justify any of your actions, even if he does so.

Not going to, just going to point out that attempted murder/GBH for a harmless prank and stealing characters possessions after negotiations are evil acts, if he tries to justify his.


DO NOT raise your voice or get angry, even if he does so.
Yep, noted


DO NOT tell him (by yourself) he is not welcome to play with you, that is not your decision.

Agreed


DO NOT criticize his character build, by doing so you are criticizing him directly and it is not your place.

No, I am criticizing his character and his character build, not him. He might take it personally. I’ll explain that to him in a clear, calm and collected manner the problems with his character are exactly that – with his character, not him.


DO NOT attempt to have the DM change his alignment. That is not the your place, or the DM's place.

I’ve already requested that his character takes an alignment check. If he is continuing on this road, then he’s going to have an evil alignment PDQ. In game, my character hates him (for pretty obvious reasons), and will not try and change his allignment.


DO NOT attempt to remove his character from the game/party through in-game means. The only acceptable way to remove a character from a party is an OOC agreement that the character is incompatible. This is not a decision you get to make on your own, everyone in the game has a say. Your perception of the characters effectiveness is irrelevant, it is a matter of "this character being in the party causes the game to not work" - example: Lawful Stupid paladin in a party of blatant serial killers.

Which is why we are having this meeting.


TL;DR you should probably stop playing with this person. A bigger man would leave, but you'd probably ask the party to choose between the two of you. Sometimes admitting a problem can't be fixed is the most mature solution. If that's unacceptable to you, then go read the whole post.

I am not going to ask the party to choose between us, and I never planned on that. The way this campaign is going, his character will eventually die from natural causes, as I’ve explained above.

After all, he is the one that has put little effort into character building, has left before the end of the two sessions, and has a character that is one alignment check away from chaotic evil.

I’m having this meeting as if I leave, then a few sessions later; his character is going to end up dead. And he is going to blame everyone but himself. We are all having this meeting to stop that from happening.

[M Placeholder]

At the risk of being an ignoramus, what is an alignment check? At first I just assumed it meant a conversation with the player and the DM about alignment, but if you're having 3 of them, I'm clearly misunderstanding something.

Thats cool. Heres an outline.

http://easydamus.com/alignmenttracking.html

Hope that helps :)

[Ralanr]

At this point, I think it is safe to say that discussion of this thread has reached an answer to your situation. With that in mind, I see no reason to continue pointing out the issues you have had with this character or defending yourself.

I'd take a step back, relax, try not to think too much about it until the meeting (Because it looks like it causes you irritation) and focus on other things until the meeting. You can tell us the results afterwards (Or not. I'm just too curious into these kinds of things. You have no obligation to do so and I'm not even sure if it is ok to do so).

[Xetheral]

Thats cool. Heres an outline.

http://easydamus.com/alignmenttracking.html

Hope that helps :)

Thank you for the link, it explains a lot. It's a particularly-mechanical approach to roleplaying, well beyond anything I've seen before. On the one hand, in the abstract, I'm all for trying to quantify the unquantifiable, as an aid to understanding. On the other hand, I have to wonder if the added complexity helps the game.

[D.U.P.A.]

Once particular PCs start fighting each other, is basically over, if they hate each other, they would not be even in the party.

[skulduggery]

I distinctly recall having a long, thought out post in my head explaining how the OP is only compounding the problem and is only looking at the situation from the perspective of demonizing someone who from his own admissions was playing their character well whilst at the same time wanting to personally kill off a fellow PC after only 2 sessions based on the loosest of arbitrary reasoning, but Gavran beat me to it.

Never mind the fact that you try to justify your actions based on the age-old logic of "he started it!".

But it's done. You've apparently gone past the point of a peaceable solution and have instead taken a personal grudge against an in game character for, again by your own admission, being played well. This sounds more like you have a personal problem with the character, not the person, and if it's being played well and isn't sabotaging the campaign, then who are you to try to resort to coercing the DM into completely screwing with him? That is not in any way your call, nor should you ever think it ok to bring up in any game.

I highly suggest you reread Gavran's post carefully and start thinking from more than your own twisted angle, because it is clear that the first time through you weren't.


EDIT: That all being said I am curious how it ends up working out.

[Malifice]

All of us are loving the campaign, the DM has been great and all of my other players are great. They are playing their characters brilliantly. We have all given ours backstories, traits and all worship gods.

He has described his character in the following terms - "Barbarian who rages easily, and is searching for who destroyed his home". Thats it.

His character is trying to bully mine for two reasons

1 - hes a gnome
2 - hes a bard

I have a feeling that he thinks that once he breaks my gnome (No way in the Nine Hells is that going to happen), he can start with the Elf, then the Mage, and on and on. As for 2 I, in game and out, cannot belive that he (in game and out ) doesn't realize how ****ing stupid number two is, and that with lateral and quick thinking and one use of Tashas Hideous Laughter or Charm Person, hand his ass to him.

He cheated on his rolls, and was asked to either take 20 off his current score or use averages in the Players manual he chose the first and dumped wis and int, and kept cha, meaning that he is playing a character that is weak willed, unintelligent, undisciplined, arrogant and has no idea of how much danger he is in. To be fair, he is playing his barbarian character well, as he has shown all of those traits in the two sessions when he was roleplaying. He described his character on the sheet as "Stands up for whats right and loyalty" in his ideals, and that he is strong willed. I have a feeling that he does not even realize (in and out of character) that his character is a bully and has commited two pretty unsavoury acts, and he thinks he's actually playing a good character. That's pretty scary, to be honest.

I have told the DM that I can end this with one casting of Charm person, and a massive speech stating that while he might be strong physically, he is a liability to our group and that he will either die at the hands of powerful spellcasters, or by someone he pissed off (his fellow players, who it goes without saying can all paste him 80% plus of the time), or doing the last dance at the gallows in the shadows of Castle Waterdeep as he was too stupid to not get caught killing someone, and that he will thank me for this speech in the future, and that this is an act of tough love by my gnome, and that if he wants to avoid floating face down in the harbour with a knife sticking out of this back, he will listen to what I am saying.

The thing that Im more pissed off about is that for the last 50-60 mins of the session, he claims that he is too tired to play a campaign that he loves, but he has no problem going to the other side of the cafe and playing MTG.

Next time he tries to bully, badmouth or intimidate my player, Im going to cast charm person on him and give him the speech.

Mate, this isnt an in character alignment question.

This player is just a cheating jerk.

[M Placeholder]

I highly suggest you reread Gavran's post carefully and start thinking from more than your own twisted angle, because it is clear that the first time through you weren't.


EDIT: That all being said I am curious how it ends up working out.

We managed to have a peaceful solution, with him re-rolling his character when it was explained to him why having WIS as a dump stat was not a good idea. The session was really fun, and there was no ill feeling.

[Ralanr]

We managed to have a peaceful solution, with him re-rolling his character when it was explained to him why having WIS as a dump stat was not a good idea. The session was really fun, and there was no ill feeling.

Glad things turned out peacefully