PDA

View Full Version : Armor vs Robes, for mages



kamikasei
2007-04-12, 09:25 AM
Well, not precisely Armor vs Robes, but a question regarding how they compete.

Armor is Armor. It has its own feat to create, and all. Robes are Wondrous Items, with their own feat in turn. They occupy the same slot on the body.

Many times now I've seen a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt recommended to casters on these boards. Indeed, it seems like a pretty sweet deal. Assuming the (low) weight doesn't hinder your stick-figure wizard, it's a +5 to AC for less than the cost of bracers of armor +3 (with no hit to dexterity, assuming your score there is below 22). Granted, that bonus doesn't apply to touch AC, but it's still nice.

What I'm wondering is how much the mage who goes down this route is missing out on by crowding out robes from his wardrobe choices. Making or commissioning vests of foo rather than robes of foo is an option, but would incur a wrong-affinity cost if I'm reading correctly. Is there any way to add a wondrous item's abilities to another type of magical item, like armor? Of course, I expect that would also apply an additional cost. Well, with the money being saved on bracers of armor, maybe it's worth it.

What are your thoughts? Can a caster have his chain shirt cake and eat his robes too? Er... you know what I mean.

Saph
2007-04-12, 10:28 AM
I've never been a fan of chain shirts for a wizard. A +1 twilight mithral chain shirt will set you back 5,000 GP or so for a +5 to AC. You could buy an awful lot of spells for that much money. And bracers of armour are obviously much worse, costing 25,000 GP for the same +5 bonus.

I prefer just using the mage armour line of spells. You won't realistically be able to afford a +1 mithral twilight shirt until level 6-8ish. Now you could buy your chain shirt and get +5 AC instead of the +4 AC that mage armour gives you . . .

. . . or you could just use greater mage armour instead, from the Spell Compendium. That gives +6 AC for the price of a 3rd-level spell slot. At 1 hour/level, that should be more than long enough to last out any dungeon crawl. You get 1 more point of AC and an extra 5,000 GP to spend.

The 9th-level wizard I'm running at the moment uses greater mage armour every day at the first suspicion of trouble. 9 hours of protection is more than enough. Plus it has the fringe benefit that to a casual glance, I don't look any different from a commoner - no weapon, no armour, and nothing to identify me as a spellcaster except a single belt pouch that could contain anything. And it lets me wear a robe, which I've enchanted with Craft Wondrous Item. A better deal, IMO.

- Saph

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 10:46 AM
You make good points, but your argument is for using spell slots in place of items to boost AC. Assuming you want to use your items to free up spell slots, my question is about the cost-effectiveness of different approaches to that. In particular, the fact that bracers of armor already make mage armor redundant, but cost a ridiculous amount, motivates my query: can't they easily be bettered?

It's mostly speculative; I'm just a little apprehensive about the questions from my wizard player as to just what penalties apply to wearing full plate as a caster...

edit: Oh, and as far as looking like a commoner - if you can manage it at level 6 or above, with your runes and scrolls and rods and suchlike - glamered is only an extra 2700 gp... assuming you're fighting the sort of monsters likely to go "well, that's clearly the mighty fighter, and the stealthy rogue, and the devout cleric, and Bob the waterboy".

Jasdoif
2007-04-12, 11:17 AM
You can wear armor and a robe at the same time. They just can't both function as magic items at the same time. If the armor isn't magical in the first place, that's not a concern, you can still benefit from its armor bonus.

Telonius
2007-04-12, 11:20 AM
I don't usually spend too much gold or effort bumping up my AC, if I'm a Wizard. If something attacks me, it's probably going to hit me, twilight mithral or not. I generally think that a better strategy is to invest in things that give your opponents miss chance - items of mirror image, blink, etc. Leave the armor to the meatshields. Wands of Mage Armor are dirt cheap (750 gp for 50 charges).

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 11:23 AM
Mithral Feycraft Twilight Breastplate +1 has no ASF, and has +8 AC. Of course, you need Armor Proficiency (Light) to wear it.

The reason Bracers of Armor cost so much is because they're in an atypical body slot. Try pricing an AC increasing item in a non-atypical body slot (say, boots that give a dodge bonus). The price is much more reasonable.

Saph
2007-04-12, 11:24 AM
You make good points, but your argument is for using spell slots in place of items to boost AC. Assuming you want to use your items to free up spell slots, my question is about the cost-effectiveness of different approaches to that. In particular, the fact that bracers of armor already make mage armor redundant, but cost a ridiculous amount, motivates my query: can't they easily be bettered?

Thing is, a wizard above 6th level or so usually has more spell slots than she knows what to do with anyway, so losing a low-level spell slot in exchange for a long-term bonus is a good deal. If you're worried about the higher level requirement of greater mage armour, just stick with mage armour instead. An extra +1 AC is unlikely to be worth the 5,000 gold.

However, if you're determined to use your items and not your spell slots, then a mithral twilight chain shirt is obviously your best option, since, as you point out, bracers of armour suck. I don't think I'd ever even consider using bracers of armour unless I was playing at a ridiculously high level and cost wasn't an issue anymore.

The trouble with this is that the robe slot is a much more useful one to keep free than the bracers slot (which is almost completely unused except for a few specialised magic items). Once you get up into the higher levels there are quite a few nice robes, and it's one of the best slots to use for custom items. The body slot affinity chart just lists "Various effects" for robes, which means that if you want a collection of random abilities, the robe slot's the one to go for.

- Saph

Amiria
2007-04-12, 11:26 AM
The reason Bracers of Armor cost so much is because they're in an atypical body slot. Try pricing an AC increasing item in a non-atypical body slot (say, boots that give a dodge bonus). The price is much more reasonable.

They are also so expensive because it is a Force effect and helps against incorporeal attacks.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 11:40 AM
They are also so expensive because it is a Force effect and helps against incorporeal attacks.

Also true.

Piccamo
2007-04-12, 11:50 AM
Mithral Feycraft Twilight Breastplate +1 has no ASF, and has +8 AC. Of course, you need Armor Proficiency (Light) to wear it.


You can still wear it, you just suffer the ACP to other things like Attack Bonus.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 11:53 AM
You can still wear it, you just suffer the ACP to other things like Attack Bonus.

Well, yes, but it sucks for those ranged touches.

Jasdoif
2007-04-12, 11:55 AM
Try pricing an AC increasing item in a non-atypical body slot (say, boots that give a dodge bonus).I thought magic items weren't allowed to grant dodge bonuses.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 11:57 AM
I thought magic items weren't allowed to grant dodge bonuses.

//shrug

Maybe they're not. Magic item creation isn't my forté: that's Tippy's job.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 12:14 PM
So, the general consensus is that while real armor is better than braces, wizards shouldn't be worrying about increasing their AC via armor bonuses in the first place?


Maybe they're not. Magic item creation isn't my forté: that's Tippy's job.

d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus):


Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items.

Latronis
2007-04-12, 12:24 PM
If you want my opinion, and i don't particularly care if you do or not, cos im gunna give it anyway :P

Why bother?

Mages and robes go to together like.. well i can't think of anything off the top of my head.. but mage armour spells last ages, you can get them in wand form if you're worried about spell slots and you're spending money you don't really need too. Besides at the least needed AP(light) at the least (though if you wanted the breast plate i'd make you take medium:P) whats the price on that anyway?

now armour is a pretty sweet deal for low level mages but by the time you can afford something like that you don't need it anymore :P

Maybe a gish would like it, but for a pure caster i don't see much gain in it.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 12:36 PM
Why bother?

Because I keep seeing this +1 twilight mithral chain shirt mentioned on the boards, and not only in connection with gishes. I was wondering what made it look so good in the eyes of many.

edit: as to price, the combo above comes to 5100 gp. That's not really bad, given that bracers of armor +2 are 4000 and +3 are 9000. And it has no armor check penalty, so proficiency isn't an issue.

Saph
2007-04-12, 12:49 PM
Because I keep seeing this +1 twilight mithral chain shirt mentioned on the boards, and not only in connection with gishes. I was wondering what made it look so good in the eyes of many.

Same reason as you, I guess. If you want an AC-boosting item, a mithral shirt is one of the best deals you can get.

It's just that, if you're a wizard, there are better ways of boosting your AC than buying an item. And while a high AC is always nice, a wizard has access to lots of spells that help her avoid attacks. You're generally better off spending your resources on those.

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 12:52 PM
...and if you really need to avoid attacks, you're wizarding wrong.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-12, 12:59 PM
Same reason as you, I guess. If you want an AC-boosting item, a mithral shirt is one of the best deals you can get.

It's just that, if you're a wizard, there are better ways of boosting your AC than buying an item. And while a high AC is always nice, a wizard has access to lots of spells that help her avoid attacks. You're generally better off spending your resources on those.

- Saph
Wu Jen, on the other hand, have no Mage armor and need +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt for good AC.

marjan
2007-04-12, 02:29 PM
One of the readons to use Chain Shirt is that you can put armor special abilities on it(like fortification).

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-12, 02:32 PM
One of the readons to use Chain Shirt is that you can put armor special abilities on it(like fortification).
Your better off with a mithril buckler of heavy fortification.

The Twilight Mithril Chainshirt is nice but your generally better off with greater mage armor. At least in the end game. The robe slot is to valuable for what the armor does for you.

Latronis
2007-04-12, 02:40 PM
Armour special abilities are usually there for people who expect to be getting hit, a wizard specifically tries to avoid that, and often does it quite well :P

When i asked about the price i meant the Twilight feycraft mithril breastplate or something like that

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 04:21 PM
Your better off with a mithril buckler of heavy fortification.

The Twilight Mithril Chainshirt is nice but your generally better off with greater mage armor. At least in the end game. The robe slot is to valuable for what the armor does for you.

True, but there are always going to be casters who don't have access to that particular spell. Warmages, dread necromancers, people who were not thinking all that well and banned conjuration (is it conjuration?) and people like me who simply aren't sure where it is right now.

For these people, an odd armor bonus is nice to have. The mithril chain shirt is sort of a later game thing, where an AC of 20 isn't a good idea even for a batman-type wizard.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-12, 04:22 PM
why not just wear bracer's of armor?

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 04:23 PM
why not just wear bracer's of armor?

They cost much, much more.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-12, 04:25 PM
they do but they are worth it in the end really. As a mage the ability to move is your most powerful ability IMO, and armor gets in the way of that. And it would be no less expensive then a heavy fort shield

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 04:30 PM
they do but they are worth it in the end really. As a mage the ability to move is your most powerful ability IMO, and armor gets in the way of that. And it would be no less expensive then a heavy fort shield

1. Mithril chain shirt, or any armor without ASF, is not going to reduce your movement unless it makes you encumbered.

2. The actual armor is 2 points of armor class better for about the same price.

3. You can't get heavy fortification bracers. So if you want heavy fortification, you have to get the shield. If you don't, the shield costs a lot less to buy for the same numeric benefit, and you can use the shield along with either bracers or worn armor.

ImperiousLeader
2007-04-12, 04:36 PM
I tend to play more Sorcerors than Wizards, so the +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt is also saving me a spell known. Also, most arcanist robes are expensive, high-level items that you're just not going to use for a long time.

There's also the meta-game thinking. If a character is wearing armour vs. a long wizard's robe, that character doesn't look as wizardly. So if you get surprised, the attackers may not figure out which is the frail but powerful wizard that needs to be put down before he destroys you.

Machete
2007-04-12, 05:01 PM
Warlocks can't use shields and anything other than light armor stinks for them so it is looking like +1 twilight mithral chain shirt is the best general purpose armor.

What I wouldn't mind more of are "useful special ability" robes tha taren't crippling in price or useless.

Saph
2007-04-12, 05:01 PM
There's also the meta-game thinking. If a character is wearing armour vs. a long wizard's robe, that character doesn't look as wizardly. So if you get surprised, the attackers may not figure out which is the frail but powerful wizard that needs to be put down before he destroys you.

A robe doesn't have to be long. My one's more like a knee-length coat. More sensible for moving in, anyway. Have you ever tried wearing full-length robes? They're a real hassle. You keep treading on the hem and tripping yourself up.

- Saph

LotharBot
2007-04-12, 05:06 PM
What's "twilight"? What's "feycraft"? What books do they come from?

ImperiousLeader
2007-04-12, 05:10 PM
Warlocks can't use shields and anything other than light armor stinks for them so it is looking like +1 twilight mithral chain shirt is the best general purpose armor.

Warlocks don't need the Twilight, or even the Mithral, since they can cast in light armour and are proficient. A simple chain shirt would work for them. They could use Mithral breastplates if they need the AC.


A robe doesn't have to be long. My one's more like a knee-length coat. More sensible for moving in, anyway. Have you ever tried wearing full-length robes? They're a real hassle. You keep treading on the hem and tripping yourself up.

True, but what I'm saying is that if a gang of goblins ambush the party, and you've got 3 guys in armour and one in a robe, chances are they'll guess the robed one is a wizard and pepper him with arrows.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 05:16 PM
What's "twilight"? What's "feycraft"? What books do they come from?

Twilight is in the BoED and in the PHB-II. Reduces ASF by 10% for a +1 bonus. Feycraft is in the DMG-II. It's an item template that reduces ASF by 5% and ACP by 1, for about 500 gold, but reduces the hardness and HP of the item by 1. Couple this with a mithral breastplate +1 and you end up with 0% ASF, -0 ACP, AC 6, and max Dex of +5. Further, it counts as light armor, which means you can use Armored Mage (Light) with it.

Dhavaer
2007-04-12, 05:17 PM
Warlocks can't use shields and anything other than light armor stinks for them so it is looking like +1 twilight mithral chain shirt is the best general purpose armor.

A warlock would be better off with a +1 mithral breastplate. The need for twilight is obviated by the warlock's ability to invoke in armour.

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-12, 05:17 PM
d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus):

Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items.
d20srd.org: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
They're right about the magic items, though; none grant Dodge bonuses.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 05:19 PM
What's "twilight"? What's "feycraft"? What books do they come from?

Twilight is in PHB II, reprinted from the Book of Exalted Deeds. You'll find it in a sidebar in the Duskblade class description. It's a +1-equivalent enhancement that takes 10% off the arcane spell failure chance.

Feycraft is in DMG II, I believe, and has a few effects, one of which is to take off 5% ASF.


Couple this with a mithral breastplate +1 and you end up with 0% ASF, -0 ACP, AC 6, and max Dex of +5. Further, it counts as light armor, which means you can use Armored Mage (Light) with it.

I'm confused. Firstly, I think you mean AC 5 rather than 6; but more to the point, if the ASF and ACP are both zero, why do you need any feat or proficiency?

Kel_Arath
2007-04-12, 05:26 PM
First of all, forgive me because this completely breaks role playing for tweaking. Grab some MW Studded leather for +3 AC and no penalties. Then get a ring of shield for another +4 (its like 1800 if you just keep activating it, or 2000 *I think* to have it constant) plus it leaves your hands free still. So thats +7 for ~2000 - ~2200

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 05:29 PM
First of all, forgive me because this completely breaks role playing for tweaking.

Hey, if it's an actual help in keeping the character alive, it's roleplaying for him to seek it out.


Grab some MW Studded leather for +3 AC and no penalties.

No penalties... except a 15% ASF. That's a good choice for a (very) low-level rogue, but is a bit pointless for an arcane caster, and is obsolete as soon as you can afford mithral.


Then get a ring of shield for another +4 (its like 1800 if you just keep activating it, or 2000 *I think* to have it constant) plus it leaves your hands free still. So thats +7 for ~2000 - ~2200

I'm pretty sure this is an abuse of the item creation guidelines, like a continuous ring of true strike. Consider that a +4 AC is what bracers of armor would get you at 16000gp. Consider that a ring of force shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) is 8500 and only gives you a +2.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 05:40 PM
I'm confused. Firstly, I think you mean AC 5 rather than 6; but more to the point, if the ASF and ACP are both zero, why do you need any feat or proficiency?

Breastplate is 5 AC to begin with. Feycraft Mithral Twilight Breastplate +1 is AC 6. Twilight, being an enhancement, is required to have at least a +1 enhancement bonus with it, so the minimum AC the piece of armor in question can have is 6.

As for nonproficiency, I suppose you don't.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 05:45 PM
Breastplate is 5 AC to begin with. Feycraft Mithral Twilight Breastplate +1 is AC 6. Twilight, being an enhancement, is required to have at least a +1 enhancement bonus with it, so the minimum AC the piece of armor in question can have is 6.

As for nonproficiency, I suppose you don't.

Whoops!

Of course, you're right.

So, at least this adds up to all those classes with the ability to ignore ASF in light armor having an easier, or at least cheaper, time of it. Of course, they're the ones proficient with the armor in the first place...

So given how awesome feycraft seems to be, is that -1 to hardness and hitpoints really consequential at all?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-12, 05:54 PM
Whoops!

Of course, you're right.

So, at least this adds up to all those classes with the ability to ignore ASF in light armor having an easier, or at least cheaper, time of it. Of course, they're the ones proficient with the armor in the first place...

So given how awesome feycraft seems to be, is that -1 to hardness and hitpoints really consequential at all?

Not...really, no, unless someone tries to sunder it via shatter or otherwise. But try finding a DM who'll let you use the DMG-II, or who even has it.

There's other item templates in the back that have their own uses. Gloryborn armors, for instance, gives you extra AC when you charge.

Dhavaer
2007-04-12, 06:37 PM
Not...really, no, unless someone tries to sunder it via shatter or otherwise. But try finding a DM who'll let you use the DMG-II, or who even has it.

Shatter isn't affected by hardness or hp when sundering.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 06:58 PM
You know, I don't actually see anything about Feycraft reducing ACP. Is there another property that does?

namo
2007-04-12, 07:00 PM
But since it's magical, Shatter won't affect it. Plus you can't Sunder worn armors, so I'd say it's a complete win.

Fizban
2007-04-12, 07:06 PM
Thistledown Padded Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt 1,8**gp. No ASF, no check penalty, 10lbs, +4 AC without magic.

Thisledown padding is in Races of the Wild, and provides an extra 5% ASF reduction to any medium or heavier armor (and chain shirt specifically), at the cost of an extra -1 of check penalty.

**I've left out the exact price to avoid giving away the exact stats. I'm willing to remove more of what I've said if required, but I don't think it's neccesary.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-04-12, 08:42 PM
Or go armoured mage as a warmage, by the time you can afford mithral buy a 10,500 buy mithral full-plate, at the sacrifice of two feats or 8th lvl you can play a character with +8 AC and 0% ASF because of armoured mage. if you want you could also just remove the mithral price, so 1,500 or so and you can take two feats, cast in any armour except shields and with 0%ASF

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 09:36 PM
Or go armoured mage as a warmage, by the time you can afford mithral buy a 10,500 buy mithral full-plate, at the sacrifice of two feats or 8th lvl you can play a character with +8 AC and 0% ASF because of armoured mage. if you want you could also just remove the mithral price, so 1,500 or so and you can take two feats, cast in any armour except shields and with 0%ASF

Warmage's armored mage ability specifically does not apply to spells gained from another class, so dipping into warmage does pretty much nothing for you. Also, warmages are the least flexible caster ever, even dread necros get some utility spells along the way.

Dausuul
2007-04-12, 10:07 PM
...and if you really need to avoid attacks, you're wizarding wrong.

QFT. As a wizard, you have way better things to do with your gold than jack your AC. Drop a first-level slot or two on mage armor and leave it at that.

Generally, you shouldn't even be getting attacked in the first place. Wind wall and protection from arrows stop ranged attacks, while fly and levitate stop most melee foes, at least until you reach the high levels where everything has wings.

(Obviously, this assumes ideal circumstances where you have plenty of spell slots available and time to buff before combat. But then, that's the wizard's specialty.)

I also recommend wearing a hat of disguise and changing your appearance to resemble a fighter in full plate. Then take a moment to make the party fighter's armor glamered, so she can look like a wizard in robes. It won't fool anyone once the "fighter" starts hovering in midair and throwing spells while the "wizard" is charging into melee with a greatsword, but it could buy you a round or two, which is often all you need.

Jasdoif
2007-04-13, 02:26 AM
You know, I don't actually see anything about Feycraft reducing ACP. Is there another property that does?One of mithral's effects is reducing the ACP by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Hallavast
2007-04-13, 03:46 AM
I've never been a fan of chain shirts for a wizard. A +1 twilight mithral chain shirt will set you back 5,000 GP or so for a +5 to AC. You could buy an awful lot of spells for that much money. And bracers of armour are obviously much worse, costing 25,000 GP for the same +5 bonus.

I prefer just using the mage armour line of spells. You won't realistically be able to afford a +1 mithral twilight shirt until level 6-8ish. Now you could buy your chain shirt and get +5 AC instead of the +4 AC that mage armour gives you . . .

. . . or you could just use greater mage armour instead, from the Spell Compendium. That gives +6 AC for the price of a 3rd-level spell slot. At 1 hour/level, that should be more than long enough to last out any dungeon crawl. You get 1 more point of AC and an extra 5,000 GP to spend.

The 9th-level wizard I'm running at the moment uses greater mage armour every day at the first suspicion of trouble. 9 hours of protection is more than enough. Plus it has the fringe benefit that to a casual glance, I don't look any different from a commoner - no weapon, no armour, and nothing to identify me as a spellcaster except a single belt pouch that could contain anything. And it lets me wear a robe, which I've enchanted with Craft Wondrous Item. A better deal, IMO.

- Saph
Saph, you've taken away my voice. This is very well written.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-13, 04:07 AM
First of all, forgive me because this completely breaks role playing for tweaking. Grab some MW Studded leather for +3 AC and no penalties.

The Arcane Spell Failure may or may not still be a penalty you have to take into account, depending on class.


Then get a ring of shield for another +4 (its like 1800 if you just keep activating it, or 2000 *I think* to have it constant) plus it leaves your hands free still. So thats +7 for ~2000 - ~2200
You have to price custom magic items according to existing magic items.

A ring of Force Shield (+2 AC) is priced at 8500 for instance.

That is probably to steep actually (but not by much), an appropriate pricing would be bonus squared x 2000, but that is still 32000 for a +4 bonus.

kamikasei
2007-04-13, 05:03 AM
One of mithral's effects is reducing the ACP by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Which brings a mithral breastplate down to -1 ACP; where's Fax getting that last 1 from? Feycraft, so far as I can see, doesn't do it.

(I'm assuming that the reduction in ACP from masterwork is already incorporated into the bonuses from the mithral.)

EvilDave
2007-04-13, 08:34 AM
Mantle of Continuous Mage Armor: 2000gp
Amulet of Continuous Shield: 4000gp (due to the spells shorter duration), and it prevents you from getting CDG by Magic Missiles in your sleep

I believe either could be put on rings for the same price if you're on of those Scarab of Natural Armor types, but those are the 2 slots listed as 'Protection.' Now get a Robe of Useful Items for only 7000gp for those times when you really need a Rowboat in the middle of a dungeon!

Dhavaer
2007-04-13, 08:38 AM
and it prevents you from getting CDG by Magic Missiles in your sleep

You can't Coup de Grace with a magic missile. You need something aimable (has an attack roll).

EvilDave
2007-04-13, 08:52 AM
(was being facetious) : )

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-13, 08:56 AM
Mantle of Continuous Mage Armor: 2000gp
Amulet of Continuous Shield: 4000gp (due to the spells shorter duration), and it prevents you from getting CDG by Magic Missiles in your sleep


Disregarding the pricing guidelines completely though....
But as long as the Fighter has his sword of continuous True Strike I am sure everyone is happy :smallsigh:

EvilDave
2007-04-13, 09:03 AM
Spell Effect Use-activated or continuous: Spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 2,000 gp x 1 (for Mage Armor as it's an hour/level spell) or 2 (for shield as it's a minute/level spell).

Cloak, cape, mantle: Protection, Transformation
Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, scarab: Protection, Discernment

Saph
2007-04-13, 09:10 AM
From the SRD, underneath Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues)


Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.

In other words, no, you can't have an item of continuous True Strike, and no, you can't have an item of continuous Shield - not for 2,000 gp anyway.

- Saph

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-13, 09:10 AM
Ok EvilDave, now look a little further up the table to see how AC bonuses are calculated or look at the Bracers of Armour that also use Mage Armor as its base.


MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
...
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

EvilDave
2007-04-13, 09:38 AM
I always considered the balancing factor that Shield and Mage Armor just didn't stack with the equivalent actual items, but I also thought the pricing on Bracers of Armor was because they were an Enhancement bonus as that's the only Armor bonus listed under the Estimating Gold Price table. Looking up the actual item, that is not correct (only a normal armor bonus, laaaame).

Latronis
2007-04-13, 12:14 PM
[/i]

True, but what I'm saying is that if a gang of goblins ambush the party, and you've got 3 guys in armour and one in a robe, chances are they'll guess the robed one is a wizard and pepper him with arrows.

Ok you're a poor dumb goblin and 2 guys in fullplate and with greatswords charge you, and the guy behind has a heavy mace and right at the back theres a guy in robes.. Do you really ignore the immediate threats to attack the wizard?

Saying the wizard always gets attacked first is somewhat of a fallacy.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-13, 12:20 PM
Ok you're a poor dumb goblin and 2 guys in fullplate and with greatswords charge you, and the guy behind has a heavy mace and right at the back theres a guy in robes.. Do you really ignore the immediate threats to attack the wizard?

Saying the wizard always gets attacked first is somewhat of a fallacy.

Not against intelligent opponents. Ignorant, unintelligent, or non-intelligent opponents should indeed attack the immediate threat.

Latronis
2007-04-13, 03:37 PM
You have to justify them knowing the wizard is the biggest threat I still don't see something like goblins on there own ignoring the giant hunk of sharpmetal bearing down on them in favour of attacking the wizard

Fax Celestis
2007-04-13, 03:40 PM
You have to justify them knowing the wizard is the biggest threat I still don't see something like goblins on there own ignoring the giant hunk of sharpmetal bearing down on them in favour of attacking the wizard

Oh, no, goblins fit directly into the "ignorant" category.

Latronis
2007-04-13, 04:20 PM
that actually took me a moment to understand that <_<

Starbuck_II
2007-04-13, 05:35 PM
Disregarding the pricing guidelines completely though....
But as long as the Fighter has his sword of continuous True Strike I am sure everyone is happy :smallsigh:
I don't get what is so great abiout continious True Strike: Whee on all day but 1 attack than it is gone.
I mean, a command word X/day is reasonable but 1 attack, I don't think that is wrong much.

By Continious do you mean, is cast each and every attack for free? That isn't a sword of true strike: Itr is a Sword of Quickened True Strike: costs a whole lot more.

kamikasei
2007-04-13, 05:40 PM
I don't get what is so great abiout continious True Strike: Whee on all day but 1 attack than it is gone.
I mean, a command word X/day is reasonable but 1 attack, I don't think that is wrong much.

By Continious do you mean, is cast each and every attack for free? That isn't a sword of true strike: Itr is a Sword of Quickened True Strike: costs a whole lot more.

Use-activated.

Fizban
2007-04-13, 05:49 PM
Let's not argue about the vague item pricing guidelines, the real question is: is it better to get a few more points of AC by getting the right armor, or to use bracers and have the ability to use a robe?

I don't think many of the robes are all that good, cloaks and capes are better. I'd actually go for an alternate robe of mage armor, and add on a few other effects. You clothing and armor is the hardest thing to steal, sunder, or just plain damage, and is the best place for putting important enhancements.

Saph
2007-04-13, 07:08 PM
I don't think many of the robes are all that good, cloaks and capes are better. I'd actually go for an alternate robe of mage armor, and add on a few other effects. You clothing and armor is the hardest thing to steal, sunder, or just plain damage, and is the best place for putting important enhancements.

A robe of mage armour is just bracers of armour in a more valuable slot, so unless you really want the bracers slot for something else, you'd be losing out by making it.

Most of the good robes are very expensive, but the robe slot is one of the best ones for creating custom items, since it can give pretty much any ability (within reason).

- Saph

kamikasei
2007-04-13, 07:25 PM
Most of the good robes are very expensive, but the robe slot is one of the best ones for creating custom items, since it can give pretty much any ability (within reason).

Is there a particularly compelling reason why such custom properties couldn't be added to the armor?

This is one of the big questions in my mind, the extent to which a wondrous item and a different sort of magic item can be combined.

Ditto
2007-04-13, 09:55 PM
Wand of Greater Mage Armor = Win. Just do it!

tbarrie
2007-04-14, 12:34 AM
You have to justify them knowing the wizard is the biggest threat I still don't see something like goblins on there own ignoring the giant hunk of sharpmetal bearing down on them in favour of attacking the wizard

Goblins have the same average Intelligence as humans. When you play, do you assume that the average person on the street doesn't know of the existence of wizards and/or doesn't realize they're dangerous?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-14, 02:38 AM
I don't get what is so great abiout continious True Strike: Whee on all day but 1 attack than it is gone.
I mean, a command word X/day is reasonable but 1 attack, I don't think that is wrong much.

By Continious do you mean, is cast each and every attack for free? That isn't a sword of true strike: Itr is a Sword of Quickened True Strike: costs a whole lot more.

When people try to make this item they usually expect to gain the benefit at least once every round and try to price it as a continuous/usa-activated spell effect.

Requiring that they make it a quickened True Strike to get the benefit on each and every attack does not change this, the pricing is still ridiculous.

You could easily make a balanced item usable a certain number of times per day as a standard action to activate, but that is usually not what people want when they suggest this item.


Is there a particularly compelling reason why such custom properties couldn't be added to the armor?

This is one of the big questions in my mind, the extent to which a wondrous item and a different sort of magic item can be combined.

You could add them to armor, but you pay the premium price of a uncustomary slot.

Saph
2007-04-14, 05:36 AM
Is there a particularly compelling reason why such custom properties couldn't be added to the armor?

This is one of the big questions in my mind, the extent to which a wondrous item and a different sort of magic item can be combined.

Armour has its own very specific sets of enchantments, and there are already about 100 of them between all the different books. I've never thought about coming up with custom enchantments for armour, partly because the selection for armour is so wide anyway. There are so many non-custom armour enchantments to choose from that making custom ones seems a bit unnecessary.

More to the point, you'd need Craft Magic Arms and Armour, which is a bit of a waste unless you're going to make other things with it too.

- Saph

kamikasei
2007-04-14, 06:38 AM
You could add them to armor, but you pay the premium price of a uncustomary slot.

Why so? If you're adding properties found on a robe, then armor takes up the same slot on the body. Why would it incur a wrong-affinity penalty?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-14, 07:44 AM
Sorry, I meant the 50 % extra you pay for adding new abilities.

Manir
2007-04-14, 08:54 AM
Personally, I find it worth it to buy the +1 twilight mithral chainshirt. Seeing as you can slap on augment crystals on to it later on, I find it to be a worthy investment.