Question relating to Spellhoarding interactions

[thecrimsondawn]

So as per the paragraph
"Wizard Casting: A spellhoarding dragon prepares and casts spells as a wizard, not a sorcerer."

How would this relate to templates such as the SA loredrake, or the white dragonspawn template?

I know dragons typically are natural casters due to there blood, and loredrake is more of a mental state of mind (derangement even) then a change in blood.
Would the bonuses stack fully, partially, or not at all to spellhoarding?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There are three ways they could work. The first is simply, they have no (successful) interaction. While I do not take this stance, I am sure someone out there will. The second is that you "time-stamp" when what was gained. Things like White Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought are supposed to be "from birth" or "from character creation." (There is a can of worms between whether you can have White Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought on the same character. Character creation rules say "yes, because inherited templates happen before taking feats." While a "common sense" heuristic would say that Dragonwrought is mechanically a feat, but really a pseudo-inherited template, thus barring dragonspawn. I have no horse in this race, so, yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Back to the the "time-stamp" approach, since White Dragonspawn is inherited and things like Sovereign Archetypes are another pseudo-template brought about by dedication (kind of like the psychoses), then if you had the template or the Archetype first before gaining the Spellhoarding psychosis, then those "free" sorcerer caster levels are now wizard caster levels. And much rejoicing at the cheese was had.

The third and arguably best or worst interpretation is that, as none of these things invalidate the others directly (SA/psychosis), then you choose the most beneficial approach. While not universal in DND rules (e.g., practiced spellcaster and wild mage's +1d6 caster level class feature), this interpretation is that the dragon psychosis is an ongoing, permanent effect. Thus, every sorcerer level the character has becomes a not-quite wizard level. Thus, if you had a True Dragon X/Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Y, the dragon would gain all the benefits of the sorcerer alternate class features (better BAB, HD, proficiencies) without any of the drawbacks (Way fewer spells known/per day).

I personally hold to the third ruling I listed. 3.5 is all about the interaction, and I have seen no case strong enough to sway me from my position thus far.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

White Dragonspawn cannot be added to dragons at all, so it has no interaction. It also cannot be added to dragonwrought kobolds, since it's an acquired template (i.e. gained after 1st level), and dragonwrought can only be taken at 1st level, which does not include being placed in the 1st level feat spot at a later level via retraining or psychic reformation, especially since it specifies that it's noticeable even before the kobold hatches from its egg.

If a spellhoarding dragon would have Sorcerer spellcasting of X level, regardless of the source of that spellcasting (innate casting, Sorcerer levels, +1 level of existing class prestige classes, Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, etc.), then he has Wizard spellcasting of X level instead. His entire Sorcerer spellcasting ability is replaced in its entirety by Wizard spellcasting ability of equal level. If you were to take levels in Battle Sorcerer and add the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in CM to those levels, your Sorcerer spellcasting would have fewer spells known and fewer spells/day, but those reduced numbers would not be applied to the Wizard casting that it's replaced with. If you take a level of Wizard then it will be added to your converted spellcasting, and you would even be able to specialize in a school of magic. You could even use Spellcatching to learn spells from your prohibited schools, as well as non-Wizard spells, as they're immediately added to your spellhoard without restriction.

[thecrimsondawn]

There are three ways they could work. The first is simply, they have no (successful) interaction. While I do not take this stance, I am sure someone out there will. The second is that you "time-stamp" when what was gained. Things like White Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought are supposed to be "from birth" or "from character creation." (There is a can of worms between whether you can have White Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought on the same character. Character creation rules say "yes, because inherited templates happen before taking feats." While a "common sense" heuristic would say that Dragonwrought is mechanically a feat, but really a pseudo-inherited template, thus barring dragonspawn. I have no horse in this race, so, yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Back to the the "time-stamp" approach, since White Dragonspawn is inherited and things like Sovereign Archetypes are another pseudo-template brought about by dedication (kind of like the psychoses), then if you had the template or the Archetype first before gaining the Spellhoarding psychosis, then those "free" sorcerer caster levels are now wizard caster levels. And much rejoicing at the cheese was had.

The third and arguably best or worst interpretation is that, as none of these things invalidate the others directly (SA/psychosis), then you choose the most beneficial approach. While not universal in DND rules (e.g., practiced spellcaster and wild mage's +1d6 caster level class feature), this interpretation is that the dragon psychosis is an ongoing, permanent effect. Thus, every sorcerer level the character has becomes a not-quite wizard level. Thus, if you had a True Dragon X/Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Y, the dragon would gain all the benefits of the sorcerer alternate class features (better BAB, HD, proficiencies) without any of the drawbacks (Way fewer spells known/per day).

I personally hold to the third ruling I listed. 3.5 is all about the interaction, and I have seen no case strong enough to sway me from my position thus far.

Thank you for that in depth post, and I would like to add you have quite some skills as a writer - I really enjoyed reading that!

The white dragonspawn is 100% optional so I could care less if it was allowed or barred from taking it, but how the loredragon interacted with the psychosis effect was the key factor.

The way I was looking at it, if it did not convert over, then you would end up with an unreasonably strong base for an Ultimate Magus, giving incredibly strong casting levels, with wizard alt class features, and persistent metamagic shenaniganz

If it does convert over, I would end up with a wiz being used with the spellpoint system, and im so going to take Riddled as well if thats the case :3


For my argument for the order of effects however, I would like to bring to attention, the Savage Species book that states that any monster with 1hd or less that gains a class level, effectively replaces there monster hit die with the new class level.
Kobold is a 1HD monster if I remember right (1d8 I think) so there is that